MACRO/ULTER........Testing a new Aromatese Inhibitor Formula:

[Mr.X]

I would not suggest anyone stop your anti-estrogens and just jump into any herbal formula or any other OTC formula. Stick to your arimidex, aromasin and have nolvadex on hand. I've had enough clients with "crysine" horror stories - 6 full blown gyno cases, all had surgery because of it...think of the poor folks getting gyno from M1T, even when the claims are all over the internet saying it's the best testosterone "like" product with no sides.

 

[Ulter]

I would not suggest anyone stop your anti-estrogens and just jump into any herbal formula or any other OTC formula. Stick to your arimidex, aromasin and have nolvadex on hand. I've had enough clients with "crysine" horror stories - 6 full blown gyno cases, all had surgery because of it...think of the poor folks getting gyno from M1T, even when the claims are all over the internet saying it's the best testosterone "like" product with no sides.

First I'd like to thank you for showing your concern for the members here. Your post however is misguided. Our new Aromatese Inhibitor is much more effective than Arimidex and possibly stronger than Aromasin. If you think that I would suggest someone use steroids without taking an effective Aromatese Inhibitor, you haven't been paying attention to my posts for the last 5 years.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

now that just hurtful to suggest that AF would encourage people to take something that was less than effective....

the main ingredient is ATD.
1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione a steroidal aromatase inhibitor

aromasin is
6-methylenandrosta-1,4-diene-3,17-dione (better oral bioavailability)

ATD has relatively poor oral bioavailability hence why the need for a "topical".

read the feedback, its VERY effective. why is it not sold as a drug... not patentable- for 2 reasons 1. it was widely studied as an aromatase inhibitor before a treatment value had been assigned to aromatase inhibition and it exists in nature.

 

[Mr.X]

First I'd like to thank you for showing your concern for the members here. Your post however is misguided. Our new Aromatese Inhibitor is much more effective than Arimidex and possibly stronger than Aromasin. If you think that I would suggest someone use steroids without taking an effective Aromatese Inhibitor, you haven't been paying attention to my posts for the last 5 years.

Macro and Ulter, I understand this is something you guys are trying to sell, that I can't disagree with - very innovative idea. But an OTC product to replace aromasin or arimidex, I just would never/could never suggest it to members on a sole basis.

Crysine was an anti-e on paper, EVERY single study on it was AMAZING! I mean this was the next huge supplement to hit the market, but, in the end, it only worked in a petri dish and in studies, not in people.

Like I said, I admire the product and think it's an innovative idea, but I would not use it myself, especially in lieu of arimidex or aromasin. In combination with an anti-e like arimidex or aromasin, maybe, just like people use 6-oxo, but by itself the risk is not worth it.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

tested clinically ATD, clinically tested in numerous animal and cell models, is as effective as exemestane (aromasin) and formestane (lentaron), it like formestane (lentaron is an injectable) is not particularly well suited for oral adminstration.

 

[Ulter]

Macro and Ulter, I understand this is something you guys are trying to sell, that I can't disagree with - very innovative idea. But an OTC product to replace aromasin or arimidex, I just would never/could never suggest it to members on a sole basis.

Crysine was an anti-e on paper, EVERY single study on it was AMAZING! I mean this was the next huge supplement to hit the market, but, in the end, it only worked in a petri dish and in studies, not in people.

Like I said, I admire the product and think it's an innovative idea, but I would not use it myself, especially in lieu of arimidex or aromasin. In combination with an anti-e like arimidex or aromasin, maybe, just like people use 6-oxo, but by itself the risk is not worth it.

Considering this product is going to put a huge dent in the profits of the sponsors you personally promote on Elite I don't really expect you to be to recommending it. It's obvious that you're unable to argue the validity of the product based on the science of it either since you're comparing it to totally unrelated material. We are having 25 veteran members here test the product during their cycles. So far it's outperforming the AI they would normally use by a wide margin. So it's fine if you want to recommend against it. But you'll do it at the risk of looking as though the member's best interest is not your first concern since your argument against the product may be based soley on your financial interests. The moderators that are actually using the product have all reported great results. All these people testing it will post their results and they have no financial interests in the outcome. So why don't we wait and see what the real live results are before we go popping off about how it's ineffective.

Personally, I have been cycling for 20 years and since I started using it, have never been this dry on 800mg/wk of steroids.

 

[Mr.X]

Considering this product is going to put a huge dent in the profits of the sponsors you personally promote on Elite I don't really expect you to be to recommending it. It's obvious that you're unable to argue the validity of the product based on the science of it either since you're comparing it to totally unrelated material. We are having 25 veteran members here test the product during their cycles. So far it's outperforming the AI they would normally use by a wide margin. So it's fine if you want to recommend against it. But you'll do it at the risk of looking as though the member's best interest is not your first concern since your argument against the product may be based soley on your financial interests. The moderators that are actually using the product have all reported great results. All these people testing it will post their results and they have no financial interests in the outcome. So why don't we wait and see what the real live results are before we go popping off about how it's ineffective.

Personally, I have been cycling for 20 years and since I started using it, have never been this dry on 800mg/wk of steroids.

Ulter, I'm not going to argue with you, you can claim whatever you want; I have respect for you but not for the way this product is being promoted/marketed. You have a large financial stake in this, so I wouldn't take this at face value anytime - and I wont argue it either, it's pointless. This is the internet, I could care less about my "reputation," I'm more concerned about the members safety. The members are my #1 concern, everything else is on the bottom of my concern list. Money comes and goes, but safety of the members doesn't.

I would NOT recommend any members use this as a sole replacement Anti-Estrogen on their cycle, for if it fails negative side-effects and consequences are going to come about. Using this in combination with a real anti-estrogen (AI) like Arimidex or Aromasin is something I can accept, but sole use is just too risky. Look what happened with Crysine, I can't stress enough that studies can only prove so much, human experiences vary and until it's proven to me I wouldn't bet my cards on it. Look at it this way, why risk it and take it alone? when you can just add it to your regular anti-estrogen regiment and lower your anti-E doses. Play it smart and safe....

 

[macrophage69alpha]

this discussion has taken a bit of a turn.
While it is perhaps unfair of ulter to question mr.x's motivations, mr.x's characterization of the product is also quite unfair.

ATD is a PROVEN aromatase inhibitor. A steroidal aromatase inhibitor.

in truth its quite like saying testosterone is not effective, only dianabol. exemestane(aromasin) is really a methylated derivative of ATD making it orally "active".

It is rediculous to compare ATD to chrysin. Chrysin is a flavanoid. ATD is a naturally occuring steroid, but because its not an androgen its not an anabolic steroid (governments definition), thus is legal.

there are a number of steroidal and non steroidal AI's that were not marketed, not because they were not effective, but because either they were not patentable or not suitable for the treatment of WOMENS breast cancer... ie. some had direct androgenic effects, some elevated testosterone too much, etc....

However it is certainly in mr.x's right not to reccomend anything that he does not beleive in. It is however innappropriate to make erroneous comparisons to compounds like chrysin. or to cast doubt, when there is none, as to whether its an effective aromatase inhibitor.

 

[RADAR]

I'm afraid i have to agree with Mr. X here until more hard evidence is put up. And not just based on the opinion of one!


RADAR

 

[macrophage69alpha]

initial feedback from this thread:

One week into using it, 2 pumps am/pm on the inner forearm...no bloat in sight..im consuming alot more cals then before (was dieting before i got on), im on sustanon (500mgs wk for 12 weeks and 30mgs of dbol for 4 weeks) so far im loving it..dry as hell...pounding down around 3000+ cals....oh and i love the smell...citrus(orange) right..lol

smell is good, water down, no sides that i can pinpoint other than the desireable ones... did develop a rash in the crook of each elbow, small blisters actuall, but that might have been from some dastardly combo of events, so i am being very careful to avoid application in that spot for no other reason that the tiny remnants of rash are sore... no skin irritation of any kind anywhere along the inner forearm, so i am guessing external elements NOT realated to the product.

will keep ya informed.

I luv the smell...wife thinks it smells like bathroom cleaner. I substituted my a-dex for your product. I have been doing 2 squirts 2x per day. I am still dry as all can be. So I have to give it 2 thumbs up.

Personally, I have been cycling for 20 years and since I started using it, have never been this dry on 800mg/wk of steroids.

some studies:

---------------------------------------------------------
Cancer Res. 1982 Aug;42(8 Suppl):3327s-3333s.


A new hypothesis based on suicide substrate inhibitor studies for the mechanism of action of aromatase.

Covey DF, Hood WF.

Recently, it was discovered that 4-hydroxy-4-androstene-3,17-dione, 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione, and 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione, compounds previously reported to be competitive inhibitors of aromatase, cause a time-dependent loss of aromatase activity in human placental microsomes. We report here that 1,4-androstadiene 3,17-dione (Ki 0.32 microM; kinact 0.91 X 10(-3)/sec) and testolactone (Ki 35 microM; kinact 0.36 X 10(-3)/sec) also cause a similar loss of aromatase activity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Physiol Behav. 1987;39(1):141-5.


The aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD), blocks testosterone-induced olfactory behaviour in the hamster.

Steel E, Hutchison JB.

The effect of ATD on olfactory investigation in intact and in castrated, testosterone-treated male hamsters was studied using subcutaneous silastic implants. In intact males, there was a dose-dependent action of ATD in reducing sniffing towards novel females and in eliminating the discrimination between females after pre-exposure to vaginal odour. Both sniffing and olfactory discrimination reappeared after removal of ATD implants. Neither the weight nor the general behavioural activity of treated males was affected, indicating a specific behavioural affect. Testosterone (T) maintained olfactory behaviour in castrated males. Untreated castrates and castrates with ATD + T implants showed reduced sniffing and showed no discrimination between females after exposure to female odour. We conclude that conversion of T to oestrogen plays an essential role in the control of male olfactory behaviour.
----------------------------------------------------------

this one is quite amusing...

1: Brain Res Dev Brain Res. 1995 Apr 18;85(2):273-9. Related Articles, Links


Increased number of vasopressin neurons in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of 'bisexual' adult male rats following perinatal treatment with the aromatase blocker ATD.

Swaab DF, Slob AK, Houtsmuller EJ, Brand T, Zhou JN.

Netherlands Institute for Brain Research, Graduate School Neurosciences Amsterdam.

In an earlier article an enlarged subpopulation of vasopressin containing neurons was found in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of homosexual men as compared to heterosexuals. The present study investigates the possibility that the number of vasopressin neurons in the SCN and sexual partner preference behavior in male rats are both influenced by sex hormones during brain development. For this purpose, we studied groups of adult male rats that had been treated either prenatally or pre- and postnatally with the aromatase inhibitor ATD (1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione) which blocks the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol. Rats treated with ATD in both pre- and postnatal periods showed 'bisexual' partner preference behavior and appeared to have 59% more vasopressin-expressing neurons in the SCN than the controls. The prenatally treated rats did not differ from the controls. This observation supports the hypothesis that the increased number of vasopressin neurons found earlier in the SCN of adult homosexual men might reflect differences that took place in the interaction between sex hormones and the brain early in development


---------------------------------------------------------



because the most "interesting" area in animals is sexual differentiation, much of the research is done using silastic capsules which release ATD directly into the brain (great for studying very specific effects of aromatase deprivation on the brain.... but not of too much value in this discussion other than to establish that it is a potent aromatase inhibitor). however feel free to do a search on pubmed for ATD or 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione. there are nearly 100 studies.




as a note- letro, aromasin and dex are all effective AI's each with their owns quirks and individual variances in response. The purpose of this was to introduce another option, an option that was one not solely limited to Aromatase inhibition and that was OTC.

though by all means wait for additional feedback, you can be sure that it will be similar to that above.