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Just out of curiosity what are everyones thoughts on God and a higher power here.

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I'm not sure we're capable of understanding creation any more than we understand how to create a human body from scratch. It's out of our league. "Who created God?". Who says God had to be created. He simply Is and exists.

I also exist and sometimes my kids act like fools in my absence. I could correct some of this by ruling with an iron fist and send them to school with stripes on their back, but that's not the way I parent. I could also follow them around school and stop them in action before they did anything wrong.

God doesn't create mind numb robots. He gives us free will. All healthy relationships exist with free will.
 
Everyone needs to remember where you got your ''facts'' from. You can't prove God exists using the bible.

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So one must believe in Jesus to be a good person?

Hi NM

No, not at all!

I'm a big fan of Richard Dawkins, and he's one of the most well known athiests around. Didn't he write "The God Delusion"? I think his arguments are compelling, but I like to believe there is something else after life itself.

If you are in the UK, you might have seen his documentary called something like: Can society have morals without God?

Well, of course they can. He demonstrated what we all know already. That we're not exactly taught to be good and have morals and ethics. We are all basically born with a natural instinct for doing what is right. I suppose if that wasn't the case most of the worlds population would be behind bars.

I personally believe that religion - in my case and perspective - Christianity, can help to remind us of the good within us all, especially in times where we might doubt it in ourselves or others. It would be very wrong and very arrogant for me to suggest for one second that religious people are morally better than those who aren't.

You only have to take a look at the cases of Catholic priests and paedophilia to discover that some people, the most religious and respected of the devout, can be evil and devoid of morality. There are many instances of religious people using their convictions as an excuse, or a cover for wrong doing. While at the other end of the scale we have some of the most hardened sceptics and athiests doing the most wonderful things for mankind. Examples include the many scientists and inventors who make breakthroughs in medicine and technology every day.

You do not have to believe in God or religion to be a good person, quite the contrary. I just think the teachings of Jesus help to remind us sometimes of the goodness that dwells within us all, and can help bring serenity and purpose to life for those who feel alone and in doubt.
 
There's a great quote ...

"Ask a religious person why they cannot believe in another persons god, (Allah, Vishnu, Tonatuih, Baku) and then tell them that's the reason you can't believe in theirs."
 
Everyone needs to remember where you got your ''facts'' from. You can't prove God exists using the bible.

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Agreed - and I'm Christian

The bible does not prove god exists not is it meant to. If our human knowledge and skills could prove or disprove God then he really wouldn't be God. The concepts of God and his ways are beyond our comprehension and understanding. If I believe in god, and I do, then I'm happy to know he's smarter than me / us.

Jesus on the other hand was a man walking on this earth. The bible (and other texts) is pretty clear on what he did and all the miracles which were not possible by a man.
 
Agreed - and I'm Christian

The bible does not prove god exists not is it meant to. If our human knowledge and skills could prove or disprove God then he really wouldn't be God. The concepts of God and his ways are beyond our comprehension and understanding. If I believe in god, and I do, then I'm happy to know he's smarter than me / us.

Jesus on the other hand was a man walking on this earth. The bible (and other texts) is pretty clear on what he did and all the miracles which were not possible by a man.


Serious question. Why are you sure the bible is true?

What about all the other cultures that have mythology, why not believe them?

It's a big world but people make grand conclusions on limited information.

Can we agree that god and Jesus is currently inactive. Saying he makes the sun rise isn't really an answer. He has to do shit like in the bible -- talk to people and say what he's going to do.

We can agree that no longer happens right? Please tell me that's right.
 
Not trying to weird or nothin, butttt what if aliens created us? Like the movie prometheus.

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Serious question. Why are you sure the bible is true?

What about all the other cultures that have mythology, why not believe them?

It's a big world but people make grand conclusions on limited information.

I mean the bible is really a history book. Jesus walked on the earth as a man. Just as sure as the north fought the south in the Civil war. Some say he was a prophet, others say he was the son of god, others probably say he is just some guy. But the fact that he existed and did the things he did are simply historical events like anything else.

Other mythology gods like you say, would be similar to what I said about God, can't be proven or disproven. I have no experience with Greek mythology and other gods. So I can't speak for those beliefs but as far as I know none were human? Might be wrong on that.

Just answering your question - hopefully you receive it as I intended, which is just an answer. I'm not saying you are wrong....just stating what I believe. At The end of the day no one I going to change their mind about something like this by what they read on an Internet forum.

Also I am saddened to hear about your experience with Catholic Church when you were young. I hope you know those particular individuals dont represent what Christianity is, or what it stands for. Although i can fully understand why events like that could scar you and change your view of what those people supposedly represented. There are soooooo many people living under the guise of faith that are simply awful people. Just as there are atheists who are wonderful, gentle and caring people.

Also keep in mind that catholic does not equal Christian. Many Catholics are Christians but they are not one in the same. Christianity is not a religion, Catholicism is. While there are some bad Catholics out there, there are also many good ones. Of course the bad ones are The ones everyone hears about and they are what define the religion as a whole in the media unfortunately. I am not catholic, but I know many wonderful people who are.
 
I mean the bible is really a history book. Jesus walked on the earth as a man. Just as sure as the north fought the south in the Civil war. Some say he was a prophet, others say he was the son of god, others probably say he is just some guy. But the fact that he existed and did the things he did are simply historical events like anything else.

Other mythology gods like you say, would be similar to what I said about God, can't be proven or disproven. I have no experience with Greek mythology and other gods. So I can't speak for those beliefs but as far as I know none were human? Might be wrong on that.

Just answering your question - hopefully you receive it as I intended, which is just an answer. I'm not saying you are wrong....just stating what I believe. At The end of the day no one I going to change their mind about something like this by what they read on an Internet forum.

Also I am saddened to hear about your experience with Catholic Church when you were young. I hope you know those particular individuals dont represent what Christianity is, or what it stands for. Although i can fully understand why events like that could scar you and change your view of what those people supposedly represented. There are soooooo many people living under the guise of faith that are simply awful people. Just as there are atheists who are wonderful, gentle and caring people.

Also keep in mind that catholic does not equal Christian. Many Catholics are Christians but they are not one in the same. Christianity is not a religion, Catholicism is. While there are some bad Catholics out there, there are also many good ones. Of course the bad ones are The ones everyone hears about and they are what define the religion as a whole in the media unfortunately. I am not catholic, but I know many wonderful people who are.



All true and all good points. Except for one thing. The Bible is not historical information for the simple fact that no other writings from that period makes any mention of the occurrences in the Bible.
 
Serious question. Why are you sure the bible is true?

What about all the other cultures that have mythology, why not believe them?

It's a big world but people make grand conclusions on limited information.

Can we agree that god and Jesus is currently inactive. Saying he makes the sun rise isn't really an answer. He has to do shit like in the bible -- talk to people and say what he's going to do.

We can agree that no longer happens right? Please tell me that's right.


do you believe in miracles? or do you think that they are coincidence and good luck?
when a child makes a miraculous recovery of cancer, or a train misses hitting a pregnant woman by inches, or people have these unexplained phenomenons happen (visions, angels, when a person literally dies in a hospital for more than 30 mins and then comes back claiming to see angels, or devils, or unexplained bodies while being dead)? there was a man a few years ago who was DEAD, i mean stone cold no pulse, and woke up in the morgue a day later... how do you explain that?
padre pio... must have been a complete fraud? stigmata does not exist? the virgin marys home in italy is all a fabrication? its physically there for you to see and touch.

i guess what im gettin at is if you need proof in your faith all u have to do is have faith in the things that surround us everyday. But you do have faith nelson... u have faith in the thought that there is no true religion, in there being nothing that exists in a after life, and no one god existing. That being said, that is faith. Better to believe in something and find out nothing exists than to not believe in anything and find out that it does exist. You went to a catholic school, im sure something had to stick, and weather you realize it or not, you were baptized and that will live inside you forever whether you realize it or not... and whether you realize it or not, you live it everyday.
im not here to push something at you, im merely stating that SOMETHING created all this, this life we live. The love you have for a child, the feelings that live inside you, all adds up to faith... the power of forgiveness, is more than just a thought processed and acted out, it is a feeling. Feelings are signs of faith. Faith in good, faith in beings, faith in your fellow man, and quite frankly faith in yourself. You live it everyday and dont even realize it. im not sayin thats god, im just saying its faith... and u do have it. its up to you what you make of it and how u explain it.
Atheist's are a gray area to me, because they claim to be without faith, but have faith in having NO faith... who says they believe in nothing? u need proof, look in a mirror. you are alive and there is no explanation how we exist, but we are here. thats proof in itself that you dont need to understand something for it to be real.

either or, your a good man nelson. your here helping people every day out of the good in you. faith or no faith, your good in my book. for what its worth lol.
 
do you believe in miracles? or do you think that they are coincidence and good luck?
when a child makes a miraculous recovery of cancer, or a train misses hitting a pregnant woman by inches,
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I've wondered about that. Maybe there is another supernatural influence at play. Then again, horrible things happen too. So in the end, it doesn;t matter what you believe. WHat will be will be.



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or people have these unexplained phenomenons happen (visions, angels, when a person literally dies in a hospital for more than 30 mins and then comes back claiming to see angels, or devils, or unexplained bodies while being dead)?

...............

Those are dreams. The person isn't really dead. Lifesigns may stop but the brain still has activity.



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there was a man a few years ago who was DEAD, i mean stone cold no pulse, and woke up in the morgue a day later... how do you explain that?
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It's not death. If it were death, he'd be dead. A pulse can stop. Ever hear of resuscitation? It can take someone without a heartbeat and get the heart beating again.


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padre pio... must have been a complete fraud? stigmata does not exist?

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A strange phenomonon for sure.



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the virgin marys home in italy is all a fabrication? its physically there for you to see and touch.

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The house is real. Not sure what that proves.


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i guess what im gettin at is if you need proof in your faith all u have to do is have faith in the things that surround us everyday. But you do have faith nelson... u have faith in the thought that there is no true religion, in there being nothing that exists in a after life, and no one god existing. That being said, that is faith.

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Actually, it isn't. It's an evaluation of the evidence based on science.



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Better to believe in something and find out nothing exists than to not believe in anything and find out that it does exist.

................................

That's superstition.


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You went to a catholic school, im sure something had to stick, and weather you realize it or not, you were baptized and that will live inside you forever whether you realize it or not... and whether you realize it or not, you live it everyday.

..........................

True, I'm still trying to shed some of the useless guilt inflicted onto me. But that's another story.



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im not here to push something at you, im merely stating that SOMETHING created all this, this life we live.


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Maybe, but it has no bearing on our life now.


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The love you have for a child, the feelings that live inside you, all adds up to faith...

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The love I have for my child has absolutley nothing to do with faith. I don;t even know where you;re getting that from, but I should know my own feelings.



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the power of forgiveness, is more than just a thought processed and acted out, it is a feeling. Feelings are signs of faith. Faith in good, faith in beings, faith in your fellow man, and quite frankly faith in yourself. You live it everyday and dont even realize it.

......................

That's totally different than faith in the thought that god exists. We're talking 2 different topics now.


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im not sayin thats god, im just saying its faith... and u do have it. its up to you what you make of it and how u explain it.

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Okay then. I agree.



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Atheist's are a gray area to me, because they claim to be without faith, but have faith in having NO faith... who says they believe in nothing? u need proof, look in a mirror. you are alive and there is no explanation how we exist, but we are here. thats proof in itself that you dont need to understand something for it to be real.

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You lost me.

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either or, your a good man nelson. your here helping people every day out of the good in you. faith or no faith, your good in my book. for what its worth lol.

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Well, I appreciate that bro and I think at the end of the day we're on the same page., It's just a matter of how you choose to get there.



.......
 

lets agree on this then....
You live your life to be the best possible man you can be. Your not malicious, violent, mean, have bad intentions, bring harm to people (unless they deserve it), and do what you truly in your heart think is right. You have morals, standards, are a friend to friends of you, a father to your children/child, loyal husband/partner, and believe in those who believe in you.
God or no god, we will all be judged, or not when we die, and you can say you were the best person you knew how to be and lived life to the fullest.

whatever was done in the past (idk what it is but im sure thats a whole other topic for another day) it will pass as soon as u find a way to let go. i can totally relate to that feeling or maybe im misunderstanding what your saying. if i do understand correctly, you have to find a way to let go or you will cloud your future for wonderful things that lye ahead. it took me years to figure that out, i think im grasping that now and to be honest i am a little more... whats the word... lets say "aware" of good coming towards me without doubt or prejudice than i was before. i dont even think im talking religion now. but i hope u get what im saying.

we cant move forward looking in the past, and religion or not, i AM a FIRM believer in karma. The people who did u wrong as a child and in your past WILL get what is coming to them, just hope that youre lucky enough to be there to watch when it does. ive had that pleasure, and there is no better feeling. it brings a feeling of joy to me every time i think about it. those fuckers got every bit of what they deserved and i just sit and smile. that was my closure, know that u will get yours too. time and patience.
 
lets agree on this then....
You live your life to be the best possible man you can be. Your not malicious, violent, mean, have bad intentions, bring harm to people (unless they deserve it), and do what you truly in your heart think is right. You have morals, standards, are a friend to friends of you, a father to your children/child, loyal husband/partner, and believe in those who believe in you.
God or no god, we will all be judged, or not when we die, and you can say you were the best person you knew how to be and lived life to the fullest.

whatever was done in the past (idk what it is but im sure thats a whole other topic for another day) it will pass as soon as u find a way to let go. i can totally relate to that feeling or maybe im misunderstanding what your saying. if i do understand correctly, you have to find a way to let go or you will cloud your future for wonderful things that lye ahead. it took me years to figure that out, i think im grasping that now and to be honest i am a little more... whats the word... lets say "aware" of good coming towards me without doubt or prejudice than i was before. i dont even think im talking religion now. but i hope u get what im saying.

we cant move forward looking in the past, and religion or not, i AM a FIRM believer in karma. The people who did u wrong as a child and in your past WILL get what is coming to them, just hope that youre lucky enough to be there to watch when it does. ive had that pleasure, and there is no better feeling. it brings a feeling of joy to me every time i think about it. those fuckers got every bit of what they deserved and i just sit and smile. that was my closure, know that u will get yours too. time and patience.

Exactly.
 
People say we're programmed to do good. I disagree. I think we're born with a sinful nature. Do we have to teach our toddlers how to do bad, misbehave, not share, etc? No.

If it were in our nature to do good, all we would have to do is simply give into temptation and we would all be sharing our food, wealth, resources and time. But it's just the opposite. We have to fight our inherent temptations everyday to be a truly good person.

Are people in church morally better? Not any more than people in hospitals are healthier.

As for proof and miracles, they exist everyday. Most members of growing, healthy church communities have seen countless miracles that science will scratch its head over. You don't read this in science or medical journals but many churches have seen members with illnesses such as cancer who have unexplainable been cured before treatment.

I for one had a bad (at least I thought it was) hernia about 10 years ago. The doctor scanned it and reviewed me twice before surgery. I'm a little embarrassed to say that I'm terrified of surgery and this was a very difficult time for me. When I showed up for the surgery, the hernia was gone. No explanation, no treatment, no surgery, no hernia. I also found it very interesting that 2 doctors informed me during the period leading up to my surgery that a natural recovery/correction was not possible. I have not had any hernia symptoms since.

Now a hernia is small potatoes compared to what many people have experienced in their churches. But it was big for me. And intended for me. Does this prove anything or convince any skeptic? No. They will have there own experiences to enjoy or overlook.

Now please remember that being cured of an illness does not make anyone better or more blessed than the uncured.
 
I simply have faith that there is SOMETHING, but man's concept of religion is the problem. All scripture is written by man. Many items in the bible are horrific in nature and in no way should represent being a moral person. I would mention other books but I might be targeted by people who blindly believe it.

Even with faith, I am frequently blinded by anxiety of death and the unknown. But that's the human condition. To not die.
 
The best I can do is speak from my heart and what it has felt over the years. Ill type as fast as I can and try not to think to much about it. I find that I over think things and my mind will get in the way of my heart. The more I learn, the better I think I have gotten, the more popular I get, the more money I make, the bigger my head gets. At the worst times of my life it has been when I stop letting my heart/soul lead my life, and stop listening to my god/higher power and what he would have me do. It is when I try to take credit/control for things and loss my humility in life that I fall.

If I had my way and I listen to my self/my mind and not my heart/higher power you people would all be screwed lmao. In my mind I am awesome, I'm great, I'm the boss, I am untouchable, I rule my life and everyone in it and you are all hear for my self gain and amusement. That is who I am without submitting to a will and plan that is not my own. As much as I hate admitting this I must and its true.

When I follow Gods plan for my life I see things differently and I see the true worth of another person regardless of any factors. I love people and love helping people in anyway I can. My mind is clear and I can see/learn anything. Am I weak because I haven't the will or strength to Take control of my life? Am I weak because I am at my best when I am submitting my self to another who I deem higher than I?

I look back and I see all the good things that have come from following my higher power and I think " how can anyone tell me there is something wrong with this?" . Any argument they would make would mean I would have to take credit for it all and I cant. So when you thank me for the help you can thank my god!!
 
Great idea for a discussion here bro!
Personally a firm believer in God, am presently at that point in life where I am struggling to work out exactly who I see as being God and how they interact with the universe. Definitely see a Christian God as being the most reasonable from my study thus far.

My two cents.

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Agreed - and I'm Christian

The bible does not prove god exists not is it meant to. If our human knowledge and skills could prove or disprove God then he really wouldn't be God. The concepts of God and his ways are beyond our comprehension and understanding. If I believe in god, and I do, then I'm happy to know he's smarter than me / us.

Jesus on the other hand was a man walking on this earth. The bible (and other texts) is pretty clear on what he did and all the miracles which were not possible by a man.

I think if you believe in the christian god, you must believe in god because the bible says god is real. So if you use the bible to prove god, it's flawed imo.

Also, is there actually one piece of evidence that proves Jesus
walked the earth?

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What I always wondered was -- why do people pray? It's like negotiating with the most supreme intelligence in the universe and expecting him to say "Yeah, I see your point, I think I'll change my mind." lol
 
I'd like to hear how steroid use is a sin or not. From what I recall, Christians are supposed to treat their bodies like a temple - with utmost respect.

I'm an atheist so I'm not guilt-trippin... haha
 
Lolol! I'm an ex-Christian myself. Nowadays I can't hear something like "steroids are a sin" without laughing my ass off. No disrespect... I don't think lol. I just can't take any religion seriously. I feel Im too old to believe in such fairy tales... But hey that's just my opinion. If god exists it is not loving and caring. It is an energy that keeps things in place without caring about our motives, heart, etc. God would exist only to keep the natural order of life. Doesn't give a shit if you pray etc. I don't believe God has an opinion in other words. That's IF god exists.
 
What I always wondered was -- why do people pray? It's like negotiating with the most supreme intelligence in the universe and expecting him to say "Yeah, I see your point, I think I'll change my mind." lol

Lolol!! So true. If you think long enough about things like that the entire religion will crumble on top of itself. Too many contradictions.
 
What I always wondered was -- why do people pray? It's like negotiating with the most supreme intelligence in the universe and expecting him to say "Yeah, I see your point, I think I'll change my mind." lol

I personally believe that if people have faith in a higher power, some forms of praying are just plain stupid... Any of you that have children know what your kids need, when they need it even before they know they need it. Kinda contradictory to think the supreme power of this universe needs you to speak your needs.

If you believe in God, than just give Thanks every single day and do not worry about asking for anything, as God already knows what you need and when you need it.

Even then, at times of desperation I have found myself praying for guidance and wisdom to see the way. This is my way of saying "I've been too self absorbed to see all of the signals, please keep sending them"


Any holy book in the world was written with the intent of using it to create a structure under which people could be controlled and the institution could gain moneys for those that run it and perpetuate it. Being a "man of God" under an institution can be a very lucrative career, that comes with power and respect. Any church you know, survives on the money the faithful giveth - You can't trust a book that was basically written as a manual for the converted. If at any point any true prophet or savior ever said that you could "worship God without having to go to church and give them your money", you can be darn sure his writings never made it to any holy book, if they weren't already burned along with him for uttering such words.

-BRR
 
This is a really interesting thread, good to hear all the different views. Im personally very spiritual and do believe in a higher power.

Im reading an interesting book at the moment called 'a history of god" by karen Armstrong (an ex Catholic nun), it talks about how religion has evolved over thousands of years and talks about the evolution of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. It doesnt answer any deep spiritual questions but is a fantastic unbiased view of all the major religions. I would recommend it for those looking for a different perspective.

Back to enjoying the thread now :-)

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I'd like to hear how steroid use is a sin or not. From what I recall, Christians are supposed to treat their bodies like a temple - with utmost respect.

I'm an atheist so I'm not guilt-trippin... haha

good point and it shows as humans we are very flawed because we all sin and we all break laws and rules almost on a daily basis.

i dated a very very very conservative baptist chick years ago. the girl felt guilty everytime she had sex. but she was the horniest girl i ever met.. its almost like sex is so sinful that its kinky to her. also her first time was with a chick which i find very hypocrital since gays are bashed by conservative baptists
 
I personally believe that if people have faith in a higher power, some forms of praying are just plain stupid... Any of you that have children know what your kids need, when they need it even before they know they need it. Kinda contradictory to think the supreme power of this universe needs you to speak your needs.

If you believe in God, than just give Thanks every single day and do not worry about asking for anything, as God already knows what you need and when you need it.

Even then, at times of desperation I have found myself praying for guidance and wisdom to see the way. This is my way of saying "I've been too self absorbed to see all of the signals, please keep sending them"


Any holy book in the world was written with the intent of using it to create a structure under which people could be controlled and the institution could gain moneys for those that run it and perpetuate it. Being a "man of God" under an institution can be a very lucrative career, that comes with power and respect. Any church you know, survives on the money the faithful giveth - You can't trust a book that was basically written as a manual for the converted. If at any point any true prophet or savior ever said that you could "worship God without having to go to church and give them your money", you can be darn sure his writings never made it to any holy book, if they weren't already burned along with him for uttering such words.

-BRR

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think man has the potential to (and often does) pervert anything that he's involved with to suit his needs. As you mentioned, many churches and preachers exist to profit. Like many other things, the corrupt give the just a bad name.

But there are also many preachers and churches who exist to Serve. Most churches (catholic churches excluded) have open books/finances. Those that don't at least have open books for members or those who hold positions. There are also mega churches whose pastor's do not receive any salary at all. Hard to believe, but true and common. Joel Osteen for example holds service in the old Houston Rockets Center. He doesn't take any salary or payment from the church. Sure he sells books, but he is also one of the largest contributors to the church. I also know pastors in my area that do not receive any salary or payment from the church. They also happen to be some of the larger contributors to their churches. In fact, I'm friends with one old pastor that even pays for his church's radio broadcast from his own pocket and has done so for 20+ years.

Many churches also do an amazing job providing for those in need. In fact, some do such a good job it can sometimes be difficult figuring out how to further help certain communities. My wife and I for example are constantly trying to find ways in our immediate community to help those in need. But it can be difficult. We looked into starting a food bank until we realized there were about 30 churches in a 20 mile radius that had food banks with healthy inventory. We would also contact friends, family and churches during the holidays trying to find families in need to support or sponsor. Yes, we found some families, but they were already being helped or sponsored by churches or individuals. I know there are many communities that aren't like this with large numbers of people suffering. But there are many churches and religious individuals (and non-religous) that are doing exceptional work in their community. It's such a shame when the greedy and corrupt gives those who truly want to serve a bad name.

My wife and I have found it to be easier to help and give charity to those in international communities, many with a lesser 'churched' population.

As far as prayer goes, it can sometimes seem funny and unnecessary to the believer and even more so to the skeptic. But I liked and agreed with your mention of needing guidance and wisdom in difficult times. Also the mention of possibly being self absorbed during these times.

For the believer, if we see God as a supreme being, the father, in charge, all powerful, all knowing, etc. Then our closest understanding to this relationship (and prayer) might be our relationship with our children or perhaps I should say with our genetic fathers. Some children will ignore their parents while doing whatever they please without any regard. They expect everything to be given to them regardless of circumstance or consequence. Why should they even ask or give thanks? They're special and deserve every bit of it. After all, thats why the parent exists or was created. At least in their mind. I liken this attitude to the believer who decides to do as he pleases with the expectation that God will and should simply provide because he's God. Why even ask? Why waste time praying or attempting to connect or communicate?

I think we could all agree that there could be a more healthy and nurturing relationship between a child and parent that develops and matures forever. For me, prayer is about my relationship and growth with God. I rarely ask for things, with the exception of praying for others.

It reminds me of the difference between cats and dogs:

When you care for a dog, the dog thinks "Wow, this person feeds me, bathes me, heals me, humors me, cares for me. This person must be God!".

When you care for a cat, the cat thinks "Wow, this person feeds me, bathes me, heals me, humors me, cares for me. I must be God!"
 
I personally believe that if people have faith in a higher power, some forms of praying are just plain stupid... Any of you that have children know what your kids need, when they need it even before they know they need it. Kinda contradictory to think the supreme power of this universe needs you to speak your needs.

If you believe in God, than just give Thanks every single day and do not worry about asking for anything, as God already knows what you need and when you need it.

Even then, at times of desperation I have found myself praying for guidance and wisdom to see the way. This is my way of saying "I've been too self absorbed to see all of the signals, please keep sending them"


Any holy book in the world was written with the intent of using it to create a structure under which people could be controlled and the institution could gain moneys for those that run it and perpetuate it. Being a "man of God" under an institution can be a very lucrative career, that comes with power and respect. Any church you know, survives on the money the faithful giveth - You can't trust a book that was basically written as a manual for the converted. If at any point any true prophet or savior ever said that you could "worship God without having to go to church and give them your money", you can be darn sure his writings never made it to any holy book, if they weren't already burned along with him for uttering such words.

-BRR

Agreed. The thing is, when most people pray, they just ask for shit.
 
In my opinion ill Beleive it when I see it. I mean there's so much pain, war, illnesses and suffering. I can't see there being a higher being.
And also the fact that if it weren't for the church we would be leaps and bounds ahead in scientific research!!
Never mind all this holy war Muslim bullshit!!!
Just my opinion. :)
 
IMHO god is a crutch. My mother once told me " I wouldn't have made it this far if there wasn't a god to help me". Bullshit. In that case at least, it's a total crutch.
 
I do not believe. I alternate between strong atheist and agnostic with more agnostic beliefs as of late. I believe this is due to my growing indifference with God and religion as a whole, when before it was definite hate.

Some people need Religion for their moral base, others do not. I respect what people believe until they do not return the same respect - and thats when the argument breaks down. But the fight isn't even worth it, in fact, no argument is really acceptable until both sides go into the argument with the understanding that "if this guy presents the better argument, I will concede and agreed."

My governing principle:
The atheist makes no claims about gods, but simply observes what is observable and detects what is detectable. It is the theist who makes an existential claim (a claim that the thing described, a god, actually exists). The atheist makes no such claim, but maintains the default position: “I don’t see any gods” (or, “I don’t detect any gods”; or, “I don’t conceive that gods exist”). “One cannot prove a negative, nor is that demanded in [the theistic] system of logic. Since negative is not susceptible to proof, the person posting the positive assertion has the burden of maintaining the assertion.” [1] For this reason, it is the theist — not the atheist — who is responsible for backing up her or his claim. Though many atheists are able to provide very strong arguments for the nonexistence of a deity, it is not the atheist’s job to make any case whatsoever. The reason for this is simple: Nobody can prove that a thing does not exist unless it cannot possibly exist (such as a square circle).
 
In my opinion ill Beleive it when I see it. I mean there's so much pain, war, illnesses and suffering. I can't see there being a higher being.
And also the fact that if it weren't for the church we would be leaps and bounds ahead in scientific research!!
Never mind all this holy war Muslim bullshit!!!
Just my opinion. :)

a very small % of muslims are what you think they are. I come from a country that was wrecked by civil war.. and it wasn't the muslims who were the aggressors, it was the christians... however because muslims come from very poor countries and have zero political strength in the world they get little sympathy.

Osama Bin Laden was a multi millionaire, and a psychopath.. he didn't make his millions.. he inherited it. it just so happened he was a nut who was born into wealth. has nothing to do with his religion. just imagine giving Tim McVeigh or any right wing christian fundamentalist billions (which is the equivalent of what bin laden had comparing apples to apples) and see how much damage they would do

using religion to trick and fool others into doing something for you isn't exclusive to any one religion or ideology either. look at Bernie Madoff who used his Jewish background to rob people of billions.
 
Moderate Muslims in the US are proud of their religion and understandably want to protect it and the perception of. Some media outlets also like try portray the average Muslim in the Middle East as being very moderate.

I spent a number of years living in a city with a large middle eastern population. I knew, worked with and was friends with a number of middle eastern professionals/businessmen. Notice I didn't say Muslims. These were somewhat oppressed individuals who fled their home country and religion in search of freedom and opportunity. They would readily admit and share that the moderate Muslim portrayed in the US is a bit of a myth. To be clear, most Muslims in the US are moderate/peaceful. But what we call radical Muslims in the Middle East are simply called Muslims in their home region. In the Middle East, they refer to moderate muslims in the US as Americans. One difference that they would point out is that in the US we have violent and radical Christians who have twisted and misinterpreted their religion. In the Middle East they have violent and radical Muslims who are accurately following their religion - at least as its taught in schools from an early age and also understood in the popular church.

Of course evil exists everywhere in every religion and non-religion.

Just my opinion developed from my experience and in depth observation.
Of course
 
By the way, the Middle Eastern friends and colleagues that I was referring to we're primarily from Iran and Palestine.
 
The atheist makes no claims about gods, but simply observes what is observable and detects what is detectable. It is the theist who makes an existential claim (a claim that the thing described, a god, actually exists). The atheist makes no such claim, but maintains the default position: “I don’t see any gods” (or, “I don’t detect any gods”; or, “I don’t conceive that gods exist”). “One cannot prove a negative, nor is that demanded in [the theistic] system of logic. Since negative is not susceptible to proof, the person posting the positive assertion has the burden of maintaining the assertion.” [1] For this reason, it is the theist — not the atheist — who is responsible for backing up her or his claim. Though many atheists are able to provide very strong arguments for the nonexistence of a deity, it is not the atheist’s job to make any case whatsoever. The reason for this is simple: Nobody can prove that a thing does not exist unless it cannot possibly exist (such as a square circle).

Pretty good. Where did you get it?
 
They would readily admit and share that the moderate Muslim portrayed in the US is a bit of a myth. To be clear, most Muslims in the US are moderate/peaceful. But what we call radical Muslims in the Middle East are simply called Muslims in their home region. In the Middle East, they refer to moderate muslims in the US as Americans. One difference that they would point out is that in the US we have violent and radical Christians who have twisted and misinterpreted their religion. In the Middle East they have violent and radical

I would say that what we call a radical Muslim is one who does, or is ready to, commit acts of terror or murder to progress a false idea of his religion being supreme, and war against non-muslims being condoned by God.
I don't think that is what you would call any Middle Eastern Muslim.
 
How was his Jewish background part of his ponzie scheme?

he used his jewish 'faith' to convince people to trust him. a huge %, not all, his investors were jewish.

I once got suckered into a ponzi scheme myself years ago.. it was a christian minister who ran it.. you can look it up if you want.. it was called IPIC.. it was about 1B big.. he used his faith within his church to fool people into investing in it. it took about 6 years before the FBI finally arrested him and his family.. the guy had a helicopter, mansions, yachts etc. what a scumbag.
 
By the way, the Middle Eastern friends and colleagues that I was referring to we're primarily from Iran and Palestine.

Iranians in the US are primarily secular. thats why they fled Iran throughout the 80's and 90's to get away from that crap over there. you would have a hard time finding someone Iranian in the US who actually is a practicing Muslim. palestinians are a different story.

most middle easterners in the US are actually christian, not muslim. there are more black muslims in the US than middle eastern muslims... notice i said middle eastern, not pakistan/afghanistan/bangladesh which is part of Asia.
 
a very small % of muslims are what you think they are. I come from a country that was wrecked by civil war.. and it wasn't the muslims who were the aggressors, it was the christians... however because muslims come from very poor countries and have zero political strength in the world they get little sympathy.

Osama Bin Laden was a multi millionaire, and a psychopath.. he didn't make his millions.. he inherited it. it just so happened he was a nut who was born into wealth. has nothing to do with his religion. just imagine giving Tim McVeigh or any right wing christian fundamentalist billions (which is the equivalent of what bin laden had comparing apples to apples) and see how much damage they would do

using religion to trick and fool others into doing something for you isn't exclusive to any one religion or ideology either. look at Bernie Madoff who used his Jewish background to rob people of billions.

Yeh may have come out a bit wrong.
I didn't mean them as a whole religion .
It's probly coz the fact that I dnt Beleive that I dnt see why people fight over religion and such.
 
Yeh may have come out a bit wrong.
I didn't mean them as a whole religion .
It's probly coz the fact that I dnt Beleive that I dnt see why people fight over religion and such.

most people don't know this but what ignited the 15 year lebanese civil war was Christians bombing a bus full of Muslims.

also in India it was the Hindu's who were the aggressors against the muslims years ago which started the hatred. in high school I had some Hindu Indian kid who would always call me muslim and try and pick fights with me.. and I'm not even muslim!! i should of knocked his teeth out, maybe that would of taught him a lesson, but whats the point? ignorance is bliss in the world
 
I was born into a very faithful Irish catholic family. Church every Sunday, Sunday school got confirmed. I'd say I lost my way with God for a while but after two tours in Iraq and two in Afghanistan I'd have to say I found my way back to my faith because there is no doubt in my mind someone was watching over me. I believe it's not until we are tested that we can determine our true faith.

Quote from any given Sunday
" there's no atheists in foxholes "
 
most people don't know this but what ignited the 15 year lebanese civil war was Christians bombing a bus full of Muslims.

also in India it was the Hindu's who were the aggressors against the muslims years ago which started the hatred. in high school I had some Hindu Indian kid who would always call me muslim and try and pick fights with me.. and I'm not even muslim!! i should of knocked his teeth out, maybe that would of taught him a lesson, but whats the point? ignorance is bliss in the world



Thanks Stive I do like your comment...in the end we are all children of Adam and Eav.
Governments around the world are the problems not Muslims, Christians or other religions.


Before I start just want to make it clear: the same God Jewish and Christian believe in is the same God what Muslims believe, however in English you can say God, Lord, Elohim... etc but in Arabic God has 99 names and the must popular name is Allah or Allaah.





Finding out about Allaah is in tune with the sound fitrah (natural inclinations of man) and with sound reasoning. How many there are who, once the truth becomes clear to them, they hasten to submit to Allaah (enter Islam). If each one of us was to do his duty towards his religion, a great deal of good would be achieved. So we congratulate you, our brother, for undertaking the mission of the Prophets and Messengers, and we give you the glad tidings of the great reward which you are promised, as your Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If Allaah were to guide one man at your hands, that would be better for you than red camels.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3/134; Muslim, 4/1872). “Red camels” are the best kind of camels.

Secondly:

With regard to proof of the existence of Allaah, it is obvious to anyone who ponders the matter, and there is no need for a lengthy discussion. When we ponder the matter, we find that it is divided into three categories: instinctive evidence, tangible evidence and shar’i (revelatory) evidence. We will explain that to you further, in sha Allaah.

1 – Instinctive evidence:


The instinctive evidence that God exists is the strongest of all evidence for those who are not led astray by the devils. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“So set you (O Muhammad) your face towards the religion (of pure Islamic Monotheism) Haneef (worship none but Allaah Alone). Allaah’s Fitrah (i.e. Allaah’s Islamic Monotheism) with which He has created mankind” [al-Room 30:30]

Man’s sound nature (fitrah) testifies to the existence of God and man cannot turn away from that unless the devils mislead him; whoever is misled by the devils may not recognize this evidence.”


Every person feels inside himself that he has a Lord and Creator, and he feels that he is in need of Him; if some major calamity befalls him he turns his hands, eyes and heart towards the heavens, seeking help from his Lord.

2 – Tangible evidence:

This refers to the things that exist in this universe; we see around us things that exist, such as trees, rocks, mankind, the earth, the heavens, seas, rivers…

If it is asked: these things are so many – who created them and is taking care of them?

The answer is that if these things came into being by accident, spontaneously and with no cause, then there is no one who knows how they were created, and that is one possibility. But there is another possibility, which is that these things created themselves and are taking care of themselves. And there is a third possibility, which is that there is Someone Who created them. When we look at these three possibilities, we find that the first and the second are impossible. If we reject the first and the second, then the third must be the one which is correct, which is that these things have a Creator Who created them, and that Creator is Allaah. This is what is stated in the Qur’aan, where Allaah says (what means):

“Were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief” [al-Toor 52:35]

Moreover, when were these mighty things created? For all these years, who is it that has decreed that they should remain in this world and has granted them the means of abiding?

The answer is, it is Allaah who has given to each thing that which is suited to it and will guarantee its survival. Do you not see the beautiful green plants; when Allaah cuts off their water supply, can they live? No, rather they become dry stalks. If you ponder all things you will find that they are dependent upon Allaah. Were it not for Allaah, nothing would remain.

And Allaah has created everything to do that for which it is suited. So camels, for example, are for riding. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not see that We have created for them of what Our Hands have created, the cattle, so that they are their owners.

And We have subdued them unto them so that some of them they have for riding and some they eat” [Yaa-Seen 36:71-72]

Look at the camel and how Allaah has created it strong, with a strong back, so that it can be used for riding and it is able to endure harsh conditions which other animals cannot bear.

If you look at other creatures you will find that they are suited to the purposes for which they were created. Glory be to Allaah.

Examples of tangible evidence include the following:

When calamities befall people this points to the existence of the Creator, for example, when they call upon Allaah and Allaah responds to their prayer; this points to the existence of Allaah. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said: “When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed for rain, he said, ‘Allaahumma aghithnaa, Allaahumma aghithnaa (O Allaah, send us rain, O Allaah, send us rain).’ Then a cloud came and it started to rain before he had even come down from the minbar (pulpit). This points to the existence of the Creator.”

3 – Shar’i evidence:

All divinely-revealed laws point to existence of Allaah:

“All the divinely-revealed laws point to the existence of the Creator and to the perfect nature of His knowledge, wisdom and mercy, because these laws must have been prescribed by someone, and that Lawgiver is Allaah.”

With regard to your question: why did Allaah create us?

The answer is: so that we would worship Him, thank Him and remember Him, and do that which He has commanded us. You know that among mankind there are disbelievers and there are Muslims. This is because Allaah wants to test His slaves as to whether they will worship Him or worship others. That is after Allaah has showed the way to everyone. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Who has created death and life that He may test you which of you is best in deed” [al-Mulk 67:2]

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)” [al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]


However about One of the basic principles of Islam is to believe in the wisdom of the Lord in what He creates and commands, and in what He wills and decrees, in the sense that He does not create anything in vain and He does not decree anything in which there is not some benefit for His slaves. So everything that exists is His will and decree. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah is the Creator of all things” [al-Ra’d 13:16]

His perfect wisdom decrees that He creates opposites, so He has created angels and devils, night and day, purity and impurity, good and ugly, and He has created good and evil. He created His slaves with differences in their bodies and minds, and in their strengths. He has made some rich and some poor, some healthy and some sickly, some wise and some foolish. By His wisdom, He tests them, and He tests some by means of others, to show who will be grateful and who will be ungrateful. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):

“Verily, We have created man from Nutfah (drops) of mixed semen (sexual discharge of man and woman), in order to try him, so We made him hearer and seer.

Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful” [al-Insaan 76:2]

“Who has created death and life that He may test you which of you is best in deed”

[al-Mulk 67:2]

When the sound believer sees disabled people, he recognizes the blessing that Allaah has bestowed upon him, so he gives thanks for His blessing, and He asks Him for good health. He knows that Allaah is Able to do all things.

People are incapable of comprehending Allaah’s wisdom. He cannot be questioned as to what He does , while they will be questioned. Glorified and exalted be He. Whatever you understand of His wisdom, believe in it, and whatever you cannot understand, say, “Allaah knows best and is most wise, and we know nothing except that which You have taught us, and He is the All-Knowing, Most Wise.”

Thank you everyone for taking the time reading this comment.



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I was forced to go to a Catholic school when I was in 1st and 2nd grade, I hated it with all my heart. That was my mother's idea because she wanted me to live under her traditions. However, my dad went to public school when he was a kid and I asked him if I could go to public school instead of that crazy Catholic school; my dad was gracious enough to release me from that hell. My dad never understood why my mother wanted us to go to Catholic school; I pretty much left unscathed but I will hate those people I encountered at that Catholic school forever.


I received my undergrad degree at a private Christian school; the reason why I chose that school, it was the only college around that offered the program I was interested in. Anyway, of course, they dropped weird requirements on you to where you had to have so many credits in theology in order to graduate (racket). I took some course that was two semesters long, it was called something like "networking with other denominations." Fuck! I can't remember it has been so long! But every week we would visit a different denomination and after the service we would interview the pastor, clergy, etc. Every denomination thought they had the most truth; every denomination thought they were/are God's chosen people; and every denomination literally vilified every other denomination. Later on in life, I belonged to a few different churches where I wrote weekly reflections and played a little guitar. Consequently, I was able to see what went on behind the scenes. Pure, unadulterated garbage: hate, pride, gossiping, and everything revolved around "money." The piano player and pastor ran off together; the church accountant stole $100,000; and all the girls fornicated with the best of them. I will also hate the people I have encountered from those other denominations forever..

Nevertheless, I am what you would call a Transcendentalist, which means I despise organized religion but believe in God with all my heart. Sort of what that young Marine said, I too had too many brushes with death and I had too many mystical rendezvous to even remotely think otherwise.

I'm just sharing my experience and I am not degrading anyone's religion. I just don't like organized religion, and I don't need a proxy to stand up in front of a pulpit and tell me how I should live my life. This gives people something to consider. I rather hang out with the: murderers, thieves, drunks, prostitutes than I would 90% of church folk. There is good in everything and I met some real good people through my experience, but now I would not talk to 90% of church goers because they are impossible to deal with. Just impossible!!!

Praise Jesus!!
 
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