HGH or DECA for healing? Both?

[Rekrul]

Hello fellas,

So I'm planning my next cycle out for this coming summer and need some input.

I am going to run 400mg cyp/150-200mg deca for 12 weeks this coming summer. I will aslo be running 50mg var for the last 6 weeks. Now I'm considering running HGH for a total of 16-20 weeks coinciding with this cycle at 2iu a day. The reason for using the GH and DECA is for a nagging joint injury that has been bothering me for almost a year now, it has gotten better but I want to really get rid of it as much as possible. So what are your thoughts? would the DECA alone be sufficient? Or should I pony up at get some GH?

 

[axe3]

Funny you should ask sir:

I got into a life changing accident almost 5 years ago and now live with chronic pain. I have done everything under the sun to relieve it. What has completely turned my life around is a run of deca. I have been on it since early sept. I am running 150mg/wk along with 250mg/wk of test. My accident completely redefined pain for me. on a scale of 1-10 if im at an 8 I'm curled up in a ball in bed and am basically useless. I lived at a 6. It was like a migrane headache. After a couple of wks on deca I dropped to a 3. I have since incorperated hgh...and my pain is minimal. I will be coming off the deca in a few weeks and am hopeful that the hgh alone keeps my pain from spiking

 

[Rekrul]

Funny you should ask sir:

I got into a life changing accident almost 5 years ago and now live with chronic pain. I have done everything under the sun to relieve it. What has completely turned my life around is a run of deca. I have been on it since early sept. I am running 150mg/wk along with 250mg/wk of test. My accident completely redefined pain for me. on a scale of 1-10 if im at an 8 I'm curled up in a ball in bed and am basically useless. I lived at a 6. It was like a migrane headache. After a couple of wks on deca I dropped to a 3. I have since incorperated hgh...and my pain is minimal. I will be coming off the deca in a few weeks and am hopeful that the hgh alone keeps my pain from spiking

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. I feel for ya, I don't think my pain is at your level its more or less a constant 4 or so. It really has changed my life, I can't sit or stand for prolonged periods of time. It has made me increasingly more moody and irritable, I guess you really don't know how bad chronic pain is until you go through it yourself. Your input is reassuring, I'll be trying the deca for sure. But my goodness is good GH expensive.

 

[RickO'Shea]

would deca be good for Patella Tendonitis?

 

[Gamer2Be08]

To use deca as a healer and GH as well.. You either need to not work out or work out light, real light.. Otherwise your masking the pain and when you come off deca and GH, it gets much worst..

Best joint tendon healer combo:
Deca
GH
IGF
Test
No lifting....

 

[axe3]

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. I feel for ya, I don't think my pain is at your level its more or less a constant 4 or so. It really has changed my life, I can't sit or stand for prolonged periods of time. It has made me increasingly more moody and irritable, I guess you really don't know how bad chronic pain is until you go through it yourself. Your input is reassuring, I'll be trying the deca for sure. But my goodness is good GH expensive.

Sounds like your pain is fucking with your head...which is the case with all people suffering from chronic pain. I had to sleep in a chair for over a year and couldnt lay on my back for more than 10 mins w/o being brought to tears.

I would honestly bail on the var and do a light Longer cycle of test and deca (250 test/150 deca/wk). This exact cycle changed my life. People that only know me post accident dont even recognize me now (attitude/physique/aura/world view) - honestly im my old self...and I thought that I had lost that.

Feel free to drop me a pm any time - I actually spent 2 months in a pain mgmt clinic and would be more than happy to support or bounce ideas around. Dont lose hope in getting rid of this!!

 

[Rekrul]

To use deca as a healer and GH as well.. You either need to not work out or work out light, real light.. Otherwise your masking the pain and when you come off deca and GH, it gets much worst..

Best joint tendon healer combo:
Deca
GH
IGF
Test
No lifting....

My issue is localized to my left hip. I have cut out heavy squats and heavy leg presses. I focus on real strict form light ass to grass squats and SL deadlifts, focusing on hamstrings and glute activation as well as really stabilizing my core. So you think even if the issue is the hip I should refrain from lifting other parts reasonably heavy?

Axe, I think I may do that. My only concern is I'm weary of staying on for longer than 12 or so weeks. I have plenty of HCG on hand though.

 

[axe3]

Rekrul: Its underatandable being nervous about being on for longer than 12 wks. This is actually a good sign. It means you take this shit seriously. And I like and respect that. That being the case I'd go for 12 weeks if I were you. If you dont already do so keep a pian log (it is increadibly easy to forget and you really want to be able to chart how things are going). I log mine 3x/day morning post exersize and evening. If you dont have one keep one for at least 2 wks prior to starting your run. Establish a firm baseline of where you are. This way if you have really good pain mgmt results and good pct recovery protocol you can manipulate the length of your next run as well as possibly even lower the doseage and do it right in order to return to your previous lifestyle

In terms of going reasonably heavy on other body parts not effected by your pain its a judgement call. The thing is you really want to take care of your body and listen to what its telling you. I promise you this your days of heavy lifting are most likely over. But its no real biggy you have muscle memory and you can still look pretty good going "light". Im personally 6'"0 190# and around 9% (abs/very vascular). Im not at my competative weight or bf but still look very good all things considered.

Good luck!!

 

[TONY83]

Deka good for healing=BS(I speak from my experience!!)

 

[mr.sagat]

To use deca as a healer and GH as well.. You either need to not work out or work out light, real light.. Otherwise your masking the pain and when you come off deca and GH, it gets much worst..

Best joint tendon healer combo:
Deca
GH
IGF
Test
No lifting....

Take drugs like Deca and Anavar to increase collagen synthesis, so that your tendons will heal at an accelerated rate. Testosterone (And most steroids) will decrease collagen synthesis, so if you do have to take it, take only enough to not get deca dick or still have some libido.


Gamer2Be08 is wrong about the testosterone and the lifting part. Moderate-high dosage Testosterone is not your friend if you are looking for help with tendons. Also you need to exercise the body part that has the problem, but not in a bodybuilding manner, exercise it like a physical therapist would. You need to stretch the affected parts, and do some MINIMAL weight when it is appropriate, to keep up circulation and blood flow to the affected area.
I'm an armwrestler (Tendonitis is normal to me) and I can say that from experience, taking Anavar and doing some recommended PT exercises (My sister is a PT has made a HUGE difference to my problems...

 

[Gamer2Be08]

Deka good for healing=BS(I speak from my experience!!)

There is proof that it heals.

 

[axe3]

would deca be good for Patella Tendonitis?

I dont know the answer to that one...I'd shoot omega a pm - hes pretty knowledgable about the healing powers of deca

 

[XMAN.]

To use deca as a healer and GH as well.. You either need to not work out or work out light, real light.. Otherwise your masking the pain and when you come off deca and GH, it gets much worst..

Best joint tendon healer combo:
Deca
GH
IGF
Test
No lifting....

yeah i agree.

i suffered from my ac joint (right shoulder) for 2.5 years till now but i'm a lot better lately, i was stubborn at the beginning about stopping training and start light after a while so i kept training heavy and trying to mask the pain with deca and cortisone infiltration in the joint, but did nothing until i convinced myself a year ago to take a break for a while and start slowly with light weight controlled movement at a slow tempo and learned to focus much better on contractions and squeezing the muscle to maximum lifting slowly trying to isolate as much as possible the targeted muscle with static contractions at the end of the lift and a very slowly negative (the rep takes about 8-10 secs for just 5-6 reps of course) , and believe me when i say i started with half of my regular weights and now i'm still at the 2/3rd of my previous weights and i'm improving, strengthening my connective tissues and hardening my muscles, and i'm seeing much more definition than with heavy explosive weights, and it's like learning a new technique where the low-moderate weight feels heavy and can benefits you in body comp. safely.
i'm still running deca from time to time, actually now i'm on it for the last 4 weeks at 200mg/w and planing to stay on for the next 4-6 weeks a total of 8-10 weeks , i do it at least 2 times a year.
and another thing, i had and advice from RADAR about using GHRP-6 for this matter as he said it works wonders for connective tissue specially when localized, so i search for it on the net and it seems that everybody is having this side and happy with it joint healing proprieties and it seems to be far more better than HGH and igf on this matter, most of the ppl using it mix it with CJC-1295 w/o dac (or modified GRF 1-29) as it intensifies the natural GH pulses in the body, they work best in synergy as it doubles the effect of both.
i'm going to give it a try next month cause i'm broke right now, i know these peptides r cheap comparing to HGH and specially at a low dose for injuries, but i'm planing to do a full cycle at a higher dose of it for six months at least for mass building at the same time, so i need to save some money first, i'm excited to start this cuz it will be my first time and everywhere i see ppl posting about these peptides they swear by them as the next generation of anabolics.
search for it , do some reading and see for urslef.
good luck

 

[Rekrul]

Good feedback in this thread, good stuff. So what exactly is a 'bad' dose of test? IE it inhibits or negatively impacts joint healing/connective tissue etc? I'm thinking this will be my next cycle after input here:

250-300mg TEST C
150mg DECA
400mg EQ

12-14weeks

Since my pain is localized to my hip area, I will continue to avoid heavy leg workouts. In other areas I will stick to what I'm doing. I think that will be fine. Thoughts?

 

[XMAN.]

Good feedback in this thread, good stuff. So what exactly is a 'bad' dose of test? IE it inhibits or negatively impacts joint healing/connective tissue etc? I'm thinking this will be my next cycle after input here:

250-300mg TEST C
150mg DECA
400mg EQ

12-14weeks

Since my pain is localized to my hip area, I will continue to avoid heavy leg workouts. In other areas I will stick to what I'm doing. I think that will be fine. Thoughts?

anything above 200mg test/w will impair collagen synthesis, but remember that the 250mg amps of test e or cyp have an ester weight of about 30% of the total mg's that means it'll give u 175mg of test in actual hormone this means ur fine with 250mg too with long esters.
just stick to 200-250mg test (about hrt doses)
and bump the deca a bit to 200-300mg , eq at 400mg is good too.
keep dostinex in hand just in case ur prolac sensitive from deca
this way u don't need to follow the 1/2 or 1/3 ratio of deca/test
even at 1/1 u'll be fine with dos/caber.
i think u read my post above, try to invest in some peptides too it seems to help a lot and it's cheap.

 

[axe3]

Good feedback in this thread, good stuff. So what exactly is a 'bad' dose of test? IE it inhibits or negatively impacts joint healing/connective tissue etc? I'm thinking this will be my next cycle after input here:

250-300mg TEST C
150mg DECA
400mg EQ

12-14weeks

Since my pain is localized to my hip area, I will continue to avoid heavy leg workouts. In other areas I will stick to what I'm doing. I think that will be fine. Thoughts?

What are your exact stats?

What are your exact goals from this cycle?

Is it pain relief? Healing? Other?

 

[Rekrul]

What are your exact stats?

What are your exact goals from this cycle?

Is it pain relief? Healing? Other?

Well at the moment I'm 206lbs 6ft at about 10-12%bf. I was up to 210 this summer and was inclining over 300lbs, dead lifting close to 500lbs and was squatting close to 400. I mainly train for athletic/power purposes... I was an avid boxer/thai boxer and grappled a good bit too. Right now I avoid heavy squats and deadlifts, still benching over 300. I've really tried to focus on my hammies,glutes, and stretching... doing that has alleviated my pain a bit and overall feel my mechanics are better but I really want to rid myself of this pain.

I've done two cycles in the last 2 years

11weeks 400mgcyp/400mg eq

7 weeks 40mgpropED/50mg var a day

I've kept most my gains, as I aimed for clean dry gains and always utilized proper PCT,diet and HCG. Of course one can't keep 'the pump' but I have been very happy with the amount of my gains that I've kept.

I can gain weight and drop weight fairly easily, I like being around 195-205 with relatively high p4p strength. Ultimately the aim of the next cycle, which I think I'm going to hold off for the next 3-4 months is to continue to recomp and gain strength while at the same time heal this pain. So I'd like to be around 200 at 8%bf and feel good after is all said and done.

 

[goin on 4T]

Deca does not heal it masks, please show me the studies I would love to read them.
For injuries HGH, and IGF, keep test to low as it will interfer with collegen production. Also you can take EQ, primo, sarms and crap i don't remember.

 

[axe3]

Deca does not heal it masks, please show me the studies I would love to read them.
For injuries HGH, and IGF, keep test to low as it will interfer with collegen production. Also you can take EQ, primo, sarms and crap i don't remember.

OK...I was highly skeptical about running deca for pain mgmt, but at the same time hopeful. I have been on a low dose since sept 1 150mg/wk. Honestly it has changed my life. I took my last shot this past week and will be off daca for a while. I started running gh in hopes that when I come off the deca I will not see a spike in pain.

I am hopeful that when I come off that my pain will be reduced as I have been relativly pain free for some time now since I started this protocal. If I am not I am honestly OK with it as I now have a solution to a problem that was COMPLETELY LIFE CHANGING.

I do not know if deca heals or not...this is my first experience with it. I will post up in a month when it has cleared my body how I am feeling.

Here is the thing. My accident was almost 5 years ago. and about 3 years ago I was ready to call it quits. I had basicly zero quality of life. I had a moment of clarity and decided I was not going to go out like a pussy. Prior to running the Deca I had gotten a lot back (physique, mental health, etc). I was still bogged down with pain. Any one who has chronic pain knows what I am talking about. I had a good life but I knew I could do better. I have done a lot of shit in terms of trying to find pain relief...and have gotten minimal results. Deca has in fact been a game changer for me.

 

[goin on 4T]

I hope taking deca works for you. I had mine prescribed for shoulder pain/hrt. When I stoped taking the deca the pain returned in 3-6 weeks. I did this 3 times and finally stoped the deca completely as it bloats me and I hate that. Unfortunately, my solution is not available to you. I do much higher reps with lighter weight and there are certain lifts I no longer due such as bench press.

 

[XMAN.]

Deca does not heal it masks, please show me the studies I would love to read them.
For injuries HGH, and IGF, keep test to low as it will interfer with collegen production. Also you can take EQ, primo, sarms and crap i don't remember.

Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during therapy with anabolic steroid or female sex hormones.
Hassager C, Jensen LT, Pødenphant J, Riis BJ, Christiansen C.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, Glostrup Hospital, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
Abstract
The effect of anabolic steroid therapy and estrogen-progestogen substitution therapy on serum concentration of procollagen type III aminoterminal peptide (PIIINP), a measure of collagen synthesis, in postmenopausal women was studied in two double-blind studies: (1) 39 women allocated to treatment with either 50 mg nandrolone decanoate as an intramuscular depot or placebo injections every third week for 1 year, and (2) 40 women allocated to receive either 2 mg 17 beta-estradiol plus 1 mg norethisterone acetate daily or placebo tablets for 1 year. Serum PIIINP was measured every 3 months during the study. Anabolic steroid therapy resulted in a more than 50% increase (P less than .001) in serum PIIINP at 3 months, which thereafter decayed but remained significantly increased throughout the study period. Serum PIIINP showed the same pattern during estrogen-progestogen therapy, but to a lesser degree. We conclude that anabolic steroids stimulate type III collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women, while estrogen-progestogen therapy may have such an effect, but only to a lesser degree.

Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during ... [Metabolism. 1990] - PubMed result

 

[XMAN.]

Nandrolone Decanoate and Load Increase Remodeling and Strength in Human Supraspinatus Bioartificial Tendons
Ioannis K. Triantafillopoulos, MD*,†, Albert J. Banes, PhD†,‡,§, Karl F. Bowman, Jr||, Melissa Maloney, MS¶, William E. Garrett, Jr, MD, PhD#, and Spero G. Karas, MD*,†,**
+ Author Affiliations

From *the Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, †Department of Orthopaedics, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, ‡Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, the §Department of Biomedical Engineering, the ||School of Medicine, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, ¶Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, and the #Department of Orthopaedics, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina
Address correspondence to Spero G. Karas, MD, Chief, Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Department of Orthopaedics, CB#7055, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7055 (e-mail: [email protected]).
Abstract

Background: To date, no studies document the effect of anabolic steroids on rotator cuff tendons.

Study Design: Controlled laboratory study.

Hypothesis: Anabolic steroids enhance remodeling and improve the biomechanical properties of bioartificially engineered human supraspinatus tendons.

Methods: Bioartificial tendons were treated with either nandrolone decanoate (nonload, steroid, n = 18), loading (load, nonsteroid, n = 18), or both (load, steroid, n = 18). A control group received no treatment (nonload, nonsteroid [NLNS], n = 18). Bioartificial tendons’ remodeling was assessed by daily scanning, cytoskeletal organization by staining, matrix metalloproteinase–3 levels by ELISA assay, and biomechanical properties by load-to-failure testing.

Results: The load, steroid group showed the greatest remodeling and the best organized actin cytoskeleton. Matrix metallo-proteinase–3 levels in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid group (P < .05). Ultimate stress and ultimate strain in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid and nonload, steroid groups (P < .05). The strain energy density in the load, steroid group was greater when compared to other groups (P < .05).

Conclusions: Nandrolone decanoate and load acted synergistically to increase matrix remodeling and biomechanical properties of bioartificial tendons.

Clinical Relevance: Data suggest anabolic steroids may enhance production of bioartificial tendons and rotator cuff tendon healing in vitro. More research is necessary before such clinical use is recommended.

Nandrolone Decanoate and Load Increase Remodeling and Strength in Human Supraspinatus Bioartificial Tendons ? Am J Sports Med

 

[XMAN.]

Nandrolone Decanoate and Load Increase Remodeling and Strength in Human Supraspinatus Bioartificial Tendons

Download PDF for complete case study

 

[goin on 4T]

Last time I checked I don't have any bioartificially engineered tendons.

 

[XMAN.]

Last time I checked I don't have any bioartificially engineered tendons.

the bioartificial tendons are cultured from human tendon cells,then implanted in patients which are injected with nandrolone which enhanced collagen matrix remodeling.
read the study in the pdf.

 

[goin on 4T]

Yes, I read the article and I am not stupid, I have not had tendon cells implanted. So for me Deca is still an unproven benefactor.

 

[Ckrappraisal]

I had golfers elbow so bad I had to virtually stop my upper body workouts. I started Deca with a HRT doseage of Test E and I have had substantial improvements in the pain in my elbow...very pleased with the results and I'm now able to work out again. So far I'm in love with Deca. The true test will come when it's time for recovery LOL.

 

[goin on 4T]

I agree deca removes or shoould I say masks the pain. But when you stop deca that is where the problems begin.

 

[XMAN.]

the pain comes when u stop deca is because u didn't give it enough time to fully recover, the things is deca works on 2 axis first it mask the pain by increasing the synovial fluids in the joint then it accelerate a bit collagen synthesis cause of the increase of the synovial fluids itself (collagen have a 100 days cycle to regenerate so it will take time to heal a tendon or a ligament needing several cycles to fully repair) so deca just help fastening things but it does not do recovery by itself, need time to lay off training some anti-inflammatory drugs for 2-4 weeks maybe a cortisone infiltration then later on after a month or so start training the injured body part light and slow , but it still let u train instead of stopping for years for some, and it's beneficial for recovery to to keep training but light to moderate when feeling better.
at the beginning of the treatment u keep doing it all year long, and it's a priviledge for ppl on HRT 100-200mg/w all year long with ur hrt , for a year or two depending on the improvement.
but off course it's always better if u use some peptides in the mix as it will do the real acceleration in recovery for all injuries, and heals injuries that usually take years in months.

 

[Essie]

Hmmm ... ... ... this is a debate which I have been witness to soooooooooo many times ... even seen a punch=up once over this topic. Untill today, mostly due to the improvement I saw in quite a few injured guys, I tend to believe that it must hold some value in the claims that it ASSISTS to a certain extent with the healing process. If you can utilise it in combo with Somatropin, or perhaps IGF-LR3, I think, and I emphasize, I THINK you could experience particular positive results. Resting, however, is a key factor to the whole process of healing and a lot of folks seem to forget that and start training again as soon as the pain begins to subside.