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Everybody Here SUCKS!

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
In a manner of speaking.

Allow me to explain.

I've said this before but it bares repeating. STEROIDS ARE GROWTH DRUGS. People have got to stop this "Lean bulking" bullshit. I would love to erase the word "CUTTER" from the message boards. Why? Because it's a fallacy and a waste of gear.

The technique of "cutting" with gear became popular among competitive bodybuilders in the 90's in a effort to maintain anabolism while restricting calories (and taking stims) in order to cut. It doesn't do much good but at that level you have to take every advantage you can get. Now I see guys who barely look like they work out doing a "lean bulk" with gear. Fuck, step back from the refrigerator and get a little closer to the squat rack!

I'd say except in the case of maybe one or two members (that means the other TWO THOUSAND of you)...STOP WASTING MONEY ON GEAR THAT IS NOT BEING PROPERLY UTILIZED!

Protein, calories and heavy lifting is what allows steroids to be effective, not
cutting calories and doing cardio. That's fucking gay.

Sure, some may say "cutting" while on a cycle worked for them, but it's a vanity trip. The results will be short lived. Hell, I have a client who was using nothing but ZIP and Lypoflame but I had him cut back on carbs and shortened time between sets and in 3 weeks, though he's about the same weight, is far more ripped and rock hard. That's the way you do it.

Face it. You, me, and most everyone here will never be a pro. Stop using steroids like you're one! Save that shit for a time when you're planning on getting bigger.

Gear if for GROWTH. Nuff said.
 
i lean bulk

or should i say

i stay lean while bulking??

i'm confused :(

cool thing is about this primo and test run i only gained about 12lbs but i'm so much bigger and leaner it's incredible

all on maintenance calories, with the occasional day of stuffing my face with everything

i just watch and listen to my body - if i'm gaining bad weight i look at what i've been eating and make changes

i don't do cardio llolool
 
great post nelson.

losing fat naturally is much much easier than gaining muscle naturally. I dont understand why people waste gear on cutting. Sure it has benefits but nobody should forget that you arent doing good things to your body with AAS.
So if you risk your body, you should use it for the thing that will takme more time to accomplish.
 
swole said:
i lean bulk

or should i say

i stay lean while bulking??

i'm confused :(

cool thing is about this primo and test run i only gained about 12lbs but i'm so much bigger and leaner it's incredible

all on maintenance calories, with the occasional day of stuffing my face with everything

i just watch and listen to my body - if i'm gaining bad weight i look at what i've been eating and make changes

i don't do cardio llolool

It sounds to me you're a guy who already has a solid base and when you juice you don't get fat or try to gain too fast or blow up with water. That's another issue. Guys think that all that bloating is growth. What you're doing is NOT what I would call "lean bulking." I'd call it "DOING A CYCLE."

And swole, you're one of the more advanced dudes here. Even your approach wouldn;t be best for 99% of the guys on the board.
 
i made the mistake of trying to "cut" when i first started using aas a few years ago. then i realized when i come off and try to maintain the same bf and stay hard after the cycle it was pretty much impossible. A complete waste of time, gear, and dedication. When i do a cycle now i eat an ass load of calories, train heavy, and try to put on as much real mass as I possibly can.
 
I think a lot of people have done bulk cycles where they eat anything and everything in sight thinking it's all about amount of cals in. Needless to say they will add a good amount of fat with the muscle, so next time they plan a "cutter" or "clean bulk" where they will keep their diet in check, just uping clean cals.

Or at least thats what happend to me........
 
Try entering a calorie defecit and performing increased cardio while NOT ANY ANABOLIC STEROIDS; you will LOSE MUSCLE, plain and simple.

When I am dropping bodyfat, my cutting cycles consist of a minimum dosage of testosterone(200-300mgs) in conjunction with a secondary anabolic such as Primobolan or Masteron, and perhaps an oral to facilitate hardness and vascularity, such as Anavar or Winstrol.

Furthermore, certain steroids DRASTICALLY INCREASE MUSCLE HARDNESS(Masteron, Tren, Winstrol, Anavar, Halotestin), so these steroids are best utilized while the bodyfat percentage is low, so these effects can be seen.

However, I do agree with you Nelson that the primary purpose of Anabolic Steroids is to BUILD MUSCLE MASS, and guys trying to "CUT" for their first cycle or "lean bulk" without having sufficient mass is just ridiculous.
 
basically you should ALWAYS be training for maximal size and muscle

If you want to get lean add some cardio, drop your carbs and take some thermos
 
Wulfgar said:
basically you should ALWAYS be training for maximal size and muscle

If you want to get lean add some cardio, drop your carbs and take some thermos

LOL

Pics? :rolleyes:
 
Ross said:
Try entering a calorie defecit and performing increased cardio while NOT ANY ANABOLIC STEROIDS; you will LOSE MUSCLE, plain and simple.

.

And I say it's inconsequential to the average guy. Catabolism is a catch phrase from the 90's which is WAY overestimated.

Too much cardio is the first mistake. And, if you're fat, you must get lean and not worry about losing an ounce of muscle unless you take gear.
 
Nelson Montana said:
And I say it's inconsequential to the average guy. Catabolism is a catch phrase from the 90's which is WAY overestimated.

Too much cardio is the first mistake. And, if you're fat, you must get lean and not worry about losing an ounce of muscle unless you take gear.


Why would you take gear if you're fat?
 
Nelson Montana said:
And I say it's inconsequential to the average guy. Catabolism is a catch phrase from the 90's which is WAY overestimated.

Too much cardio is the first mistake. And, if you're fat, you must get lean and not worry about losing an ounce of muscle unless you take gear.

I really can't believe you actually write bodybuilding books.

Sorry, I have to call it like it is, you are FULL OF SHIT Nelson. You must live in your own little reality to believe even half of the ridiculous things you say.

Get off your high horse and get some experience...
 
Ross said:
I really can't believe you actually write bodybuilding books.

Sorry, I have to call it like it is, you are FULL OF SHIT Nelson. You must live in your own little reality to believe even half of the ridiculous things you say.

Get off your high horse and get some experience...


You must live in your own little reality to even say that. I dont know the guy, but i know he gives good, solid, safe advice. Wheres your books? Get some experience? Look him up on google. I didnt find anything under "Ross"....
 
Ecdysterone would be so much bigger if it actually worked well. It might have a little effect, but nothing compared to the advice from a former bber.
 
For those wondering about Omnibolic:

NEW STUDY ON ECDYSTEROIDS!

J. Agric. Food Chem., 56 (10), 3532?3537, 2008. 10.1021/jf073059z
Web Release Date: April 30, 2008

Copyright ? 2008 American Chemical Society
Phytoecdysteroids Increase Protein Synthesis in Skeletal Muscle Cells

Jonathan Gorelick-Feldman,*? David MacLean,? Nebojsa Ilic,? Alexander Poulev,? Mary Ann Lila,# Diana Cheng,# and Ilya Raskin?

Biotech Center, Cook College, Rutgers University, 59 Dudley Road, New Brunswick, New Jersey 08901;Hallett Center for Diabetes and Endocrinology, Brown Medical School, Providence, Rhode Island 02912; and Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Sciences, University ofIllinois, Urbana, Illinois 61801

Abstract:

Phytoecdysteroids, which are structurally similar or identical to insect molting hormones, produce a range of effects in mammals, including increasing growth and physical performance. To study the mechanism of action of phytoecdysteroids in mammalian tissue, an in vitro cellular assay of protein synthesis was developed. In C2C12 murine myotubes and human primary myotubes, phytoecdysteroids increased protein synthesis by up to 20%. In vivo, ecdysteroids increased rat grip strength. Ecdysteroid-containing plant extracts produced similar results. The effect was inhibited by a phosphoinositide kinase-3 inhibitor, which suggests a PI3K-mediated mechanism.



Introduction

Ecdysteroids, polyhydroxylated ketosteroids with long carbon side chains, are produced primarily in insects and plants. Although the role of ecdysteroids as insect hormones and their involvement in development and the molting process have been well studied, their role in plants is less obvious. Ecdysteroids found in plants, called phytoecdysteroids, do not elicit any of the classical plant hormone responses; however, they do elicit weak gibberellin-like activity in rice, as well as affect differentiation in alfalfa embryos (1). It has been suggested that plants utilize ecdysteroids as a chemical defense against insect herbivory by disrupting the insect hormonal balance and molting process (2, 3).

Ecdysteroids have also been reported to have effects in mammals, including lowering cholesterol levels (4) and blood glucose (5). They have immunomodulating (6), antiarrythymic (7), and hepatoprotective effects [(8); for a review see refs (9) and (10)]. Despite all of these effects, no receptor homologous to the insect ecdysone receptor has been identified in vertebrates. In fact, the transfected ecdysone receptor has been utilized for gene switch systems (9).

Anabolic effect is another reported property of ecdysteroids in vertebrates. Ecdysteroids have been shown to increase growth in a wide variety of animals including mice (11, 12), rats (13), sheep (14), pigs (15), and quail (16). Observed anabolic effects of these compounds are increased physical performance without training, as demonstrated using the forced swim test with rats, and increased synthesis of myofibrillar proteins in both the soleus and extensor digitorum longus (17). Increased growth and protein content were also observed in ecdysteroid-treated mouse liver and kidneys (18).

Plants are natural sources of ecdysteroids. Although most plants do not contain measurable amounts of ecdysteroids, some plants produce high levels of these compounds. Ajuga turkestanica, an herb from the basil family native to Uzbekistan, contains high levels of the C-11 hydroxylated turkesterone, one of the more active ecdysteroids (19). The high concentration of this potent ecdysteroid makes A. turkestanica a potentially useful medicinal plant. Edible plants, such as Spinacia oleracea (spinach), also contain considerable amounts of ecdysteroids, such as 20-hydroxyecdysone (20HE) (2), one of the most common plant-derived ecdysteroids. In addition to its use as a food crop, spinach may also have potential therapeutic qualities.

Despite the data showing various in vivo anabolic effects of ecdysteroids, the mechanisms of their cellular mode of action have not been elucidated. One of the barriers has been the lack of a simple in vitro assay to quantify the anabolic effect of ecdysteroids on skeletal muscle. In this study, we developed a cell culture-based method for analyzing the effects of ecdysteroids and report a significant increase in the protein synthesis of muscle cells following ecdysteroid treatment. The model was further used to identify factors that either enhanced or abrogated this anabolic effect. In support of earlier literature, we confirmed that this in vitro effect was translated in vivo as demonstrated by increased grip strength in rats treated with 20HE or with ecdysteroid-containing plant extracts.



Materials and Methods

Materials. 20HE, polypodine B, and ponesterone were purchased from Scitech (Praha, Czech Republic). Methandrostenolone, a synthetic anabolic steroid, was purchased from Steraloids (Newport, RI). Pure turkesterone was a gift from the Tashkent Institute of Cardiology (Uzbekistan). Other reagents were purchased from Sigma-Aldrich (St. Louis, MO).

Plant Extraction. A. turkestanica was collected in Uzbekistan, and voucher specimens were cataloged in the Rutgers Herbarium. The dried aerial portion was extracted in 95% ethanol. On the basis of previous phytoecdysteroid extraction protocols (16), the ethanolic extract was partitioned with butanol, and the butanolic phase was dried and used for testing.

Locally grown dried spinach powder (S. oleracea) was extracted in 95% ethanol for 24 h. After the removal of ethanol, the extract was resuspended in water and partitioned with heptane. The organic phase was removed, and the water phase was partitioned with butanol. The butanolic phase was dried and used for testing.

The ecdysteroid content of plant extracts was determined using (+)ESI LC-MS. A standard curve was generated using increasing amounts of purified turkesterone or 20HE. The typical fragmentation ions of ecdysteroids [(M + H) + (M − H2O + H) + (M − 2H2O + H) + (M − 3H2O + H)] were merged to produce chromatograms for each compound. The fragmentation patterns and retention times of the plant extracts were compared with those of standards to quantify the amount of turkesterone and 20HE present.

Cell Culture. A mouse skeletal muscle cell line, C2C12 (ATCC CRL-1772), was maintained according to the method of Montgomery et al. (20). Between passages 3 and 10, cells were seeded at a density of 105 cells/cm2 onto 24-well tissue culture plates. The cells were grown in low-glucose Dulbecco?s Modified Eagle?s Medium (DMEM) supplemented with 10% fetal bovine serum (FBS), 10 mM HEPES, 6 mM glutamine, 1 mM pyruvate, 100 units/mL penicillin, and 100 ?g/mL streptomycin (Gibco, Grand Island, NY). Cells were grown for 48 h in 5% CO2 at 37 ?C. After cells reached 80% confluency, the medium was replaced with differentiation medium (DMEM with 2% horse serum). After 5 days, the myoblasts had fused into multinucleated myotubes.

Primary human skeletal muscle cells (a gift from Dr. William Cefalu of the Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA) were seeded at a density of 105 cells/cm2 onto 24-well tissue culture plates. The cells were grown in DMEM supplemented with 10% FBS and a SingleQuot Kit (Lonza, Portsmouth, NH) containing epidermal growth factor, insulin, bovine serum albumin (BSA), fetuin, dexamethasone, and gentamicin/amphotericin-B. Cells were grown for 96 h in 5% CO2 at 37 ?C until they reached 80% confluency, and the medium was replaced with differentiation medium (DMEM with 2% horse serum). After 18 days, myoblasts fused into multinucleated myotubes.

Cell Treatment. For the ecdysteroid dose response, C2C12 cells were washed with serum-free DMEM and treated with increasing concentrations of 20HE, turkesterone, ponesterone, polypodine B, methandrostenolone, or the vehicle, 0.1% ethanol, four wells per treatment. Compounds were added to serum-free medium containing 5 ?Ci/mL [3H]leucine. Cells were incubated for 4 h before protein measurement. For the 20HE time course study, C2C12 cells were treated with 1 ?M 20HE for 0.5−24 h in serum-free medium containing 5 ?Ci/mL [3H]leucine before protein measurement. For the plant extract study, C2C12 cells were treated with increasing concentrations of spinach extract, A. turkestanica extract, or vehicle for 4 h during the radiolabeled exposure period before protein measurement. For the inhibitor study, C2C12 cells were pretreated with either 10 ?M of the phosphoinositide kinase-3 (PI3K) inhibitor, LY294002, or vehicle for 30 min. The medium was changed, and the cells were incubated with either 1 ?M 20HE, 100 ng/mL insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1), or vehicle for 4 h before protein measurement. For the 24 h 20HE dose response in human muscle cells, the cells were washed and treated with either 1 ?M 20HE or vehicle in serum-free leucine containing medium supplemented with 5 ?Ci/mL [3H]leucine. Cells were then incubated for 24 h before protein measurement.

Protein Synthesis Assay. Protein synthesis was determined by measuring the incorporation of the tritiated amino acid, leucine (20). Briefly, following treatment, cells were washed with cold phosphate-buffered saline (PBS), followed by the addition of 5% trichloroacetic acid (TCA) to precipitate protein. After 30 min at 4 ?C, the TCA was removed and the precipitate was dissolved in 0.5 M NaOH (500 ?L). The dissolved precipitate (400 ?L) was added to scintillation vials with 5 mL of scintillation fluid (Ready Safe, Beckman Coulter, Fullerton, CA). Decays per minute (DPM) were measured in a liquid scintillation counter (LS 6500, Beckman Coulter). Total protein was quantified using the bicinchoninic acid (BCA) method following the manufacturer?s instructions (Pierce, Rockford, IL). The data were expressed as DPM per milligram of total protein. Each experiment was performed in triplicate. The results were expressed as mean SEM. Statistical significance was determined using Student?s t test (p < 0.05).[/QUOTE]
 
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Results and Discussion
All of the tested ecdysteroids increased protein synthesis in C2C12 myotubes in a dose-dependent manner after 4 h of treatment (Figure 1). 20HE and turkesterone elicited the strongest response, increasing protein synthesis to 110% of control at 40 nM. This effect peaked at 0.1 ?M, with protein synthesis at 120% of control and was still observed at concentrations up to 10 ?M. Ponesterone and polypodine B had less potent activity, requiring 1 ?M to produce an increase of 120% of control. At lower concentrations of 10 nM, all of the tested ecdysteroids slightly inhibited protein synthesis, although the results were not statistically significant. Methandrostenolone, an anabolic steroid, had no significant effect on protein synthesis at concentrations up to 10 ?M.
In human skeletal myotubes, 20HE produced a similar dose-dependent increase in protein synthesis after 24 h of treatment (Figure 2). Treatment with 100 nM 20HE increased protein synthesis by 120% of control. This increase was observed at up to 1 ?M.

In the 24 h 20HE study, 20HE increased protein synthesis in C2C12 myotubes by up to 120% of control (Figure 3). This increase became statistically significant after 2 h, peaked at 8 h, and remained for the 24 h duration of the experiment.

The most abundant ecdysteroids in the A. turkestanica and spinach extracts, prepared as described above, were quantified with (+)ESI LC-MS. The A. turkestanica extract contained 2.1% (w/w) turkesterone and 0.9% (w/w) 20HE (Figure 4). The spinach extract contained 3.0% (w/w) 20HE. Both extracts contained other ecdysteroids but at much lower levels, making quantification difficult (data not shown). Although the concentrations of total ecdysteroids were similar in both plant extracts, the levels found in the original plants varied. The total ecdysteroid contents per tissue found in the dried aerial portion of A. turkestanica and spinach were approximately 5 mg/g and 40 ?g/g, respectively, comparable with previous studies (3, 22).

Both A. turkestanica and spinach extracts stimulated protein synthesis in C2C12 myotubes (Figure 5). At the low concentration of 0.8 ?g/mL, approximately 50 nM total ecdysteroids, both extracts slightly increased protein synthesis, but that increase was not significant at p = 0.05. At higher concentrations, the effect was more pronounced and statistically significant. At 1.6 ?g/mL, or 100 nM total ecdysteroids, both A. turkestanica and spinach extracts significantly increased protein synthesis by 15 and 9%, respectively. This stimulatory effect was observed at up to 8 ?g/mL, or 500 nM total ecdysteroids, with increases of 16 and 18% for A. turkestanica and spinach, respectively. This effect was similar to that produced by pure ecdysteroids at comparable concentrations.

The PI3K pathway, which activates AKT, has been shown to increase protein synthesis in skeletal muscle (23). When C2C12 myotubes were pretreated with 10 ?M of the PI3K inhibitor LY294002, the effect of 20HE on protein synthesis was significantly reduced (Figure 6). The PI3K inhibitor similarly reduced IGF-1-stimulated protein synthesis.

In the rat androgen nuclear receptor binding assay, methandrostenolone bound to the androgen receptor with an EC50 of 24 nM. However, 20HE showed no significant binding from concentrations of 1 to 100 ?M (Table 1).

To investigate whether the enhanced protein synthesis in the cultured cells translates into enhanced physical performance, rats were daily gavaged with 20HE, spinach extract, or methandrostenolone for 28 days, and the front limb grip strength determined at the end of the treatment period (Figure 7). 20HE increased the grip strength by 18% compared to the control (p < 0.05), whereas the spinach extract increased grip strength by 24% (p < 0.005). Methandrostenolone increased grip strength by 21% (p < 0.01).

The ecdysteroids used in this research increased protein synthesis in both murine and human skeletal muscle cells (Figures 1 and 2) and had muscle strengthening effects in vivo. The androgenic anabolic steroid methandrostenolone did not have a significant effect on protein synthesis in the experimental model used, confirming a previous study that androgens had no effect on protein synthesis in skeletal myotubes (24).

20HE and turkesterone were the most anabolically active among the tested ecdysteroids. The only structural differences between the tested ecdysteroids are the number and placement of hydroxyl groups. The anabolic effect of 20HE became significant after 2 h and was maintained for at least 24 h (Figure 3). The effect became significant at 100 nM 20HE, comparable to the affinity of the insect ecdysone receptor (25).

Similarly to pure compounds, extracts from plants known to contain ecdysteroids (i.e., A. turkestanica and spinach) also enhanced protein anabolism in muscle cells (Figure 5). Levels of ecdysteroids present in the extracts were sufficient to explain the observed effects and correlated with the effective concentrations of pure compounds. Similarly to methandrostenolone, 20HE and spinach extract normalized for 20HE dose, were associated with significant increases in muscle strength in rats (Figure 7). These results support previous findings that ecdysteroids increase muscle strength in vivo (17) and indicate that extracts from both tested plants may stimulate muscle growth and strength.

Anabolic androgenic steroids, structurally and functionally related to testosterone, often produce myotrophic effect in mammals (26). Synthetic anabolic androgenic steroids exert their effect mainly through binding to the intracellular androgen receptor, responsible for the mediating effects of its natural ligandstestosterone and dihydrotestosterone. In addition to anabolic effects in muscle tissue, anabolic androgenic steroids cause many adverse side effects: in women, deepening of the voice, acne, and hirsutism; in men, gynecomastia and inhibition of spermatogenesis; and in both women and men, dyslipidemia and associated cardiovascular disease, liver disease, and possible disturbances of mood and behavior. Therefore, separating anabolic and androgenic effects is an important research target in human pharmacology.

The observation that 20HE does not bind to the androgen receptor (Table 1) suggests that ecdysteroids may exert their anabolic effect through an androgen-independent mechanism. It is tempting to speculate that ecdysteroids may work through activating the PI3K pathway. The PI3K pathway plays a key role in cell survival and growth in a variety of tissues, including skeletal muscle (27). One of the main downstream mediators of this pathway is Akt. Akt, or protein kinase B (PKB), is a serine/threonine-specific protein kinase, which is activated by PI3K. Akt activation leads to cell survival, growth, and proliferation. There is some evidence that ecdysteroids activate Akt (28). In the current study, treatment with the PI3K inhibitor, LY294002, completely abolished the ecdysteroid effect (Figure 6). This finding is consistent with the hypothesis that ecdysteroids act on the PI3K pathway.

In insects, ecdysteroids bind to the nuclear ecdysone receptor, which dimerizes and binds to DNA, activating the transcription of genes involved in molting (9). However, in mammals, which seem to lack homologous receptors, the molecular mechanisms of ecdysteroid action are still unknown. Although our findings suggest that ecdysteroids may be mediated by a pathway that converges on the PI3K pathway, rather than on the androgen receptor pathway, more study is needed to confirm or disprove this hypothesis.

Abbreviations Used
20HE, 20-hydroxyecdysone; BCA, bicinchoninic acid; BSA, bovine serum albumin; DPM, decays per minute. DMEM, Dulbecco?s Modified Eagle?s Media; FBS, fetal bovine serum; IGF-1, insulin-like growth factor-1; PI3K, phosphoinositide kinase-3; PKB, protein kinase B; TCA, trichloroacetic acid.
 
Nelson's thread title is "Everyone here SUCKS", and you are telling ME that I am on a high horse? :)

Sorry, just stating my opinion, Nelson does not have a CLUE about AAS. He knows training.
 
Maybe if he wasn't so abrasive and arrogant in his posts I would not have responded so agressively. But I have a low threshold tolerance for BULLSHIT.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I would love to erase the word "CUTTER" from the message boards. Why? Because it's a fallacy and a waste of gear.


Who here with a join date earlier than July 08 agrees with this? And feel free to explain your specific situations in your many cycles that you now believe to have been a complete waste.
 
Cutting isnt a fallacy. But it should only be done when you have a good amount of mass.
 
Ross said:
Maybe if he wasn't so abrasive and arrogant in his posts I would not have responded so agressively. But I have a low threshold tolerance for BULLSHIT.


I hear ya bro. To each his own. I respect you bro. From Jersey Ross?
 
also what about some of us who use anabolics for recovery and increased performances in other sports, we are not using these drugs to bulk as we have totally different goals and there are alot of us on this forum. so to say we suck shows how narrow minded you are. and you are supposed to be a guy with knowledge.
 
I also understand that some people dont want to be HUGE so they wanna do anavar only cycles.
 
swole said:
i lean bulk

or should i say

i stay lean while bulking??

i'm confused :(

cool thing is about this primo and test run i only gained about 12lbs but i'm so much bigger and leaner it's incredible

all on maintenance calories, with the occasional day of stuffing my face with everything

i just watch and listen to my body - if i'm gaining bad weight i look at what i've been eating and make changes

i don't do cardio llolool

I gotta agree with swole. I'm always bulking but i just happen to stay lean, good genetics is all. If you want to "lean bulk" you need good genetics not drugs.
 
fuck, instead of cutting and wasting your money on steroids...cut on some


--->>>>>DEFINITION -- Instant Cutting Formula

*****AND IF YOU REALLY WANT DA FAT 2 B GONE FO EVA THEN...

hit up some --->>>>>ZIP -- Permanent Fat Loss Without Stimulants

I mean that shit is gone, your fat cells are not allowed to inhabit that body part any longer, and it doesn't come back it has been zipped so hard!!!!!!
 
DBBT said:
fuck, instead of cutting and wasting your money on steroids...cut on some


--->>>>>DEFINITION -- Instant Cutting Formula

*****AND IF YOU REALLY WANT DA FAT 2 B GONE FO EVA THEN...

hit up some --->>>>>ZIP -- Permanent Fat Loss Without Stimulants

I mean that shit is gone, your fat cells are not allowed to inhabit that body part any longer, and it doesn't come back it has been zipped so hard!!!!!!

BahahaHAHAhah :evil:
 
Ross said:
I really can't believe you actually write bodybuilding books.

Sorry, I have to call it like it is, you are FULL OF SHIT Nelson. You must live in your own little reality to believe even half of the ridiculous things you say.

Get off your high horse and get some experience...

I actually like his safe methods and philosophy. I'm just a mere mortal, and his books are written for the majority of ppl, just like myself.
 
1999TL said:
I actually like his safe methods and philosophy. I'm just a mere mortal, and his books are written for the majority of ppl, just like myself.


How many cycles have you ran?
 
DBBT said:
fuck, instead of cutting and wasting your money on steroids...cut on some


--->>>>>DEFINITION -- Instant Cutting Formula

*****AND IF YOU REALLY WANT DA FAT 2 B GONE FO EVA THEN...

hit up some --->>>>>ZIP -- Permanent Fat Loss Without Stimulants

I mean that shit is gone, your fat cells are not allowed to inhabit that body part any longer, and it doesn't come back it has been zipped so hard!!!!!!


You are pretty immature and any smart person knows this by reading this post bro. Those products work. No they are not steroids but with a good diet and an intense training routine AND these SUPPS you wouldnt need steroids to cut. Steroids to cut are a lazy ass way out.
 
I'm a humble guy so very rarely do I get into these heated discussions. I like to read about the general science and logic behind everything. I sketch an outline based on this feedback yet use my own colors to design training routines, cycles, diet.

I respect a lot of people on this board for the different opinions and reasoning they provide, but to downright insult eachother is absolutely ridiculous and won't be tolerated.

Keep the discussion clean. If you truly believe in your methods, then explain them with TACT.
 
Some pretty funny posts!

First of all, the title of the thread is meant to be an ironic joke. The fact that Ross thinks I'm insulting the members is either a tactic to get attention (once again) or a complete lack of humor. I'd say everyone else "got it."

I won't address the attack on my credentials and experience. I've been in the game longer than you've been alive Ross so I'll just chalk that up to immaturity on your part and let it go at that. Even a gnat can be annoying. It doesn't make him important.

Secondly, is everyone as tired as I am of his three page
pseudo studies of ingredients proven to be non effective?

As for DBBT, what are you so angry at bro? Do you think that attacking my supplements (which have been proven effective) is the way to make a good argument about the use of steroids for cutting? Maybe you can't cut without steroids, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, if you know what you're doing.

Bottom line...it is not the BEST use of them IMO. Disagree? Fine. Let's hear why.

And as far as everybody else who don't want to get TOO big...what the fuck does that mean? What are you doing on a steroid forum? You think it's easy to grow? Are you afraid you're going to wake up one morning and be TOO big?

I'm no mass monster and have no desire to be 300 pounds, but when I used gear it was to get bigger once I tapped out my natural limit. If you have no interest in getting bigger, why use steroids? (Okay, if you're Roger Clemens, I understand it. Are you?)

So yeah, it's time for some humility. None of us is Jay Cutler. It's a joke when people construct cycles like they're entering the Olympia when they can make better gains with better training and diet if they actually learned how.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Some pretty funny posts!

First of all, the title of the thread is meant to be an ironic joke. The fact that Ross thinks I'm insulting the members is either a tactic to get attention (once again) or a complete lack of humor. I'd say everyone else "got it."

I won't address the attack on my credentials and experience. I've been in the game longer than you've been alive Ross so I'll just chalk that up to immaturity on your part and let it go at that. Even a gnat can be annoying. It doesn't make him important.

Secondly, is everyone as tired as I am of his three page
pseudo studies of ingredients proven to be non effective?

As for DBBT, what are you so angry at bro? Do you think that attacking my supplements (which have been proven effective) is the way to make a good argument about the use of steroids for cutting? Maybe you can't cut without steroids, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, if you know what you're doing.

Bottom line...it is not the BEST use of them IMO. Disagree? Fine. Let's hear why.

And as far as everybody else who don't want to get TOO big...what the fuck does that mean? What are you doing on a steroid forum? You think it's easy to grow? Are you afraid you're going to wake up one morning and be TOO big?

I'm no mass monster and have no desire to be 300 pounds, but when I used gear it was to get bigger once I tapped out my natural limit. If you have no interest in getting bigger, why use steroids? (Okay, if you're Roger Clemens, I understand it. Are you?)

So yeah, it's time for some humility. None of us is Jay Cutler. It's a joke when people construct cycles like they're entering the Olympia when they can make better gains with better training and diet if they actually learned how.

*Steroids are used to either build muscle mass and strength, or to reduce bodyfat while preserving muscle and increasing definition.

Nelson, your advice is horrible. You are actually telling bodybuilders to reduce their calories and increase cardio WITHOUT using any ANABOLIC STEROIDS, are you insane?

I don't care if you are a COMPLETE NOVICE with only 1 or 2 cycles under your belt, you should NEVER reduce your calories and increase cardio in an all-natural state, you are begging to lose everything you accomplished while ON CYCLE.
 
I wouldn't step on the stage without AAS
I wouldn't step on the stage in bulking phase
Therefore, I must run cutters

Its pretty simple Nelson
 
Ross said:
How many cycles have you ran?

Actually, none. But I plan on running Primo 400 mg/week 1-10, and 30 mg's dbol week 1-4. It was that or 250 test E/10 weeks, but I decided on the primo first. Next cycle Ill add the test + primo.

I meant that I like his views on not needing to use GH, insulin, DNP, and whatever else when there are safer drugs. I will be going the "safer" route
 
Glad to know I don't suck :).

I've never ran a cutter before in my life. I use steroids to GROW!!!

:beer: to you nelly
 
Much better first cycle 1999TL

500 Test 1-8
30mg Dbol 1-4
30mg Winstrol 9-10
PCT 11-14

Winstrol 9-10 is to let esters clear while staying as anabolic as possible
 
Nelson Montana said:
Some pretty funny posts!

First of all, the title of the thread is meant to be an ironic joke. The fact that Ross thinks I'm insulting the members is either a tactic to get attention (once again) or a complete lack of humor. I'd say everyone else "got it."

I won't address the attack on my credentials and experience. I've been in the game longer than you've been alive Ross so I'll just chalk that up to immaturity on your part and let it go at that. Even a gnat can be annoying. It doesn't make him important.

Secondly, is everyone as tired as I am of his three page
pseudo studies of ingredients proven to be non effective?

As for DBBT, what are you so angry at bro? Do you think that attacking my supplements (which have been proven effective) is the way to make a good argument about the use of steroids for cutting? Maybe you can't cut without steroids, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, if you know what you're doing.

Bottom line...it is not the BEST use of them IMO. Disagree? Fine. Let's hear why.

And as far as everybody else who don't want to get TOO big...what the fuck does that mean? What are you doing on a steroid forum? You think it's easy to grow? Are you afraid you're going to wake up one morning and be TOO big?

I'm no mass monster and have no desire to be 300 pounds, but when I used gear it was to get bigger once I tapped out my natural limit. If you have no interest in getting bigger, why use steroids? (Okay, if you're Roger Clemens, I understand it. Are you?)

So yeah, it's time for some humility. None of us is Jay Cutler. It's a joke when people construct cycles like they're entering the Olympia when they can make better gains with better training and diet if they actually learned how.


The "BEST" use of gear is completely subjective on all levels. Stating that one way is better than another is ridiculous. It all depends on what you want to achieve.


I, for one, like the mass monster idea, but not freakishly big like the Mr'O competitors. I also like to stay lean.

The "cutter" mentality fits lots of people personal agendas for what they want to acheive. So, saying it's a watse of gear and not the best way is completely wrong for A LOT of people.

just cuz you like it one way, doesn't make it right for everyone.

and, yes, you hopped on the soap box here with nothing to really achieve other than expres your opinion of cuting on gear. Congratulations, you don't like it that way. Many people do, and it works for them, and they are satisfied. How can you argue with satisfaction?
 
Ross said:


Nelson, your advice is horrible. You are actually telling bodybuilders to reduce their calories and increase cardio WITHOUT using any ANABOLIC STEROIDS, are you insane?



I never said to increase cardio Ross, in fact I said the opposite. If you're going to attack a position, find out what it is first.

As for steelmass. That's fine bro. You're doing it for competitive purposes -- to peak for a day. That's not the approach of 99% of the people who use "cutters."
 
steelmass said:
I wouldn't step on the stage without AAS
I wouldn't step on the stage in bulking phase
Therefore, I must run cutters

Its pretty simple Nelson

I was going to agree with this for competition, but Nelson has already chimed in.

As for a first cycle, if I chose test, it would most likely be at 250 mg/week. I posted a picture in the pictures forum to see if I'm ready for steroids. That forum doesn't really get views like this one though.
 
i would be more inclined to take advice from ross, i have seen pictures of him and he has an amazing physique. literally, he looks awesome. huge, well proportioned muscles, low bf, crazy vascularity. you dont get like that without knowing what you are doing.
 
*The_West* said:
i would be more inclined to take advice from ross, i have seen pictures of him and he has an amazing physique. literally, he looks awesome. huge, well proportioned muscles, low bf, crazy vascularity. you dont get like that without knowing what you are doing.
:)
 
*The_West* said:
i would be more inclined to take advice from ross, i have seen pictures of him and he has an amazing physique. literally, he looks awesome. huge, well proportioned muscles, low bf, crazy vascularity. you dont get like that without knowing what you are doing.

I'e heard good things come from both Ross and Nelson. I've also heard both of them say some real shit too. I respect both these bros, and they both know a lot about bodybuilding.

I take what I hear from everyone, take what makes sense, even try stuff out, and slowly form my own philosophy fo rmyself and my own goals. Most things I hear from people that have been in the "biz" for a while know what they are talking about. I take what they say to heart, give it a run, and if it gives results, I keep it. If it doesn't really do much for me, i go another route.




On the subject, i get what nelson is sayin about getting the mass out of your cycles. You do take aas to get big, that's the point , right?

But, if you need to really cut up, and keep your body weight/lean mass, a "cutter" is sutiable for you.
 
*The_West* said:
i would be more inclined to take advice from ross, i have seen pictures of him and he has an amazing physique. literally, he looks awesome. huge, well proportioned muscles, low bf, crazy vascularity. you dont get like that without knowing what you are doing.

:rolleyes:
 
dabuffguy said:
I'e heard good things come from both Ross and Nelson. I've also heard both of them say some real shit too. I respect both these bros, and they both know a lot about bodybuilding.

I take what I hear from everyone, take what makes sense, even try stuff out, and slowly form my own philosophy fo rmyself and my own goals. Most things I hear from people that have been in the "biz" for a while know what they are talking about. I take what they say to heart, give it a run, and if it gives results, I keep it. If it doesn't really do much for me, i go another route.




On the subject, i get what nelson is sayin about getting the mass out of your cycles. You do take aas to get big, that's the point , right?

But, if you need to really cut up, and keep your body weight/lean mass, a "cutter" is sutiable for you.

My sentiments as well. Well said.
 
Attempting to REDUCE BODYFAT and PRESERVE MUSCLE MASS while not on CYCLE is begging for muscle-loss, regardless of your personal level of development...

Granted, the amount of Anabolic Steroids used for a cutting cycle is typically LESS than you would use on a standard BULKING cycle.
 
dabuffguy said:
I'e heard good things come from both Ross and Nelson. I've also heard both of them say some real shit too. I respect both these bros, and they both know a lot about bodybuilding.

I take what I hear from everyone, take what makes sense, even try stuff out, and slowly form my own philosophy fo rmyself and my own goals. Most things I hear from people that have been in the "biz" for a while know what they are talking about. I take what they say to heart, give it a run, and if it gives results, I keep it. If it doesn't really do much for me, i go another route.

On the subject, i get what nelson is sayin about getting the mass out of your cycles. You do take aas to get big, that's the point , right?

But, if you need to really cut up, and keep your body weight/lean mass, a "cutter" is sutiable for you.

Good post bro. Likely one of the best in the thread.

This is the way you do it.

I've been here a long time and have seen a lot of 'knowledgeable' and 'good' bros exposed as total frauds and/or scammers. I've also seen who's stuck around and withstood the test of time and who REALLY knows their shit.

With this being said, I would suggest that people take bits and peices from everyone, and do exactly as you said.

Good post.

Chris
 
Ross said:
*Steroids are used to either build muscle mass and strength, or to reduce bodyfat while preserving muscle and increasing definition.

Nelson, your advice is horrible. You are actually telling bodybuilders to reduce their calories and increase cardio WITHOUT using any ANABOLIC STEROIDS, are you insane?

I don't care if you are a COMPLETE NOVICE with only 1 or 2 cycles under your belt, you should NEVER reduce your calories and increase cardio in an all-natural state, you are begging to lose everything you accomplished while ON CYCLE.

Then please explain how the fuck you lose weight in a calorie surplus. I'm all ears.
 
dabuffguy said:
I'e heard good things come from both Ross and Nelson. I've also heard both of them say some real shit too. I respect both these bros, and they both know a lot about bodybuilding.

I take what I hear from everyone, take what makes sense, even try stuff out, and slowly form my own philosophy fo rmyself and my own goals. Most things I hear from people that have been in the "biz" for a while know what they are talking about. I take what they say to heart, give it a run, and if it gives results, I keep it. If it doesn't really do much for me, i go another route.




On the subject, i get what nelson is sayin about getting the mass out of your cycles. You do take aas to get big, that's the point , right?

But, if you need to really cut up, and keep your body weight/lean mass, a "cutter" is sutiable for you.

To add to my post, and it's off subject some:


I hate it when people swing from eachothers dicks. We are all bros here, yeah, but it's not like the one guy or the other guy is the lord of bodybuilding. Some things work for people and other things don't. Everyone has their ideas and philosophies, some of which make a lot of sense, and some sound and feel completely wrong. There's lots of product pushing and othe shit that goes around here too. I have tried some of these products and they are damn awesome, but some of the product hype here is overboard. The ONLY product that I can truly say works like everyone says it does is Amp02 and lipoflame. and, I don't really like lipoflame because it gives me some serious appetite supression, but it does what it says it does. Also, I notice OMEGA doesn't jump on every opportunity to push his product on someone just to sell some shit. He let's the members that have used it testify to it, because it is some real good stuff.
 
Big_BK said:
Then please explain how the fuck you lose weight in a calorie surplus. I'm all ears.

You don't. Steroids are either used in a CALORIE SURPLUS to gain muscle mass, or they are used in a CALORIE DEFECIT to PRESERVE muscle mass while REDUCING BODYFAT.
 
i half agree with ross and nelson, if thats possible. i personally dont see the need to cut using aas. it is perfectly do able with correct diet, cardio and for some, thermogenics. as a non competitive bodybuilder i see this as the best route as you shoudlnt be using drugs that you can do without. however, i agree with what ross said, as it is true, that cutting cals to the point of deficit and doing cardio you will lose some muscle, and if you are a competitive bodybuilder this is not acceptable, so yes in that case i understand the need to utilise some kind of cycle to retain mass.
 
*The_West* said:
i half agree with ross and nelson, if thats possible. i personally dont see the need to cut using aas. it is perfectly do able with correct diet, cardio and for some, thermogenics. as a non competitive bodybuilder i see this as the best route as you shoudlnt be using drugs that you can do without. however, i agree with what ross said, as it is true, that cutting cals to the point of deficit and doing cardio you will lose some muscle, and if you are a competitive bodybuilder this is not acceptable, so yes in that case i understand the need to utilise some kind of cycle to retain mass.

Steroids are either used in a CALORIE SURPLUS to gain muscle mass, or they are used in a CALORIE DEFECIT to PRESERVE muscle mass while REDUCING BODYFAT. Plain and simple. :)

If you ATTEMPT to reduce bodyfat in an all-natural state, you will NOT be happy 8 weeks later. :(
 
Ross said:
You don't. Steroids are either used in a CALORIE SURPLUS to gain muscle mass, or they are used in a CALORIE DEFECIT to PRESERVE muscle mass while REDUCING BODYFAT.

preserving the mass works, because AAS will make food more efficent, making less calories necessary to maintain a certain weight.

That's one of the plusses to juicing cattle. The feed is more efficent and so they can give them less feed, making a leaner animal while keeping the weight up.


You will not keep al your muscle in calorie defecit, but you will keep 99% of it. you will definitley lose a lot more mass while cutting without juice. A cutter cycle works. It's a good idea.
 
Ross said:
You don't. Steroids are either used in a CALORIE SURPLUS to gain muscle mass, or they are used in a CALORIE DEFECIT to PRESERVE muscle mass while REDUCING BODYFAT.

Exactly, so why did you say other wise?
 
IMO people are aguing over the definition of the word cutting cycle ..

for some CUTTING CYCLE means : some moderate to low dosage of test to help keep the muscle mass while on a calorie deficit state

for others it means that some specifically designed steroid could help them lose body and therefore stack 1 or 2 with those benefit in a stack and call it a CUTTING CYCLE .now you all cant argue that some steroid do help with the fatloss (tren , var ) altough its not their primary objective they do help just my .02
 
dabuffguy said:
preserving the mass works, because AAS will make food more efficent, making less calories necessary to maintain a certain weight.

That's one of the plusses to juicing cattle. The feed is more efficent and so they can give them less feed, making a leaner animal while keeping the weight up.


You will not keep al your muscle in calorie defecit, but you will keep 99% of it. you will definitley lose a lot more mass while cutting without juice. A cutter cycle works. It's a good idea.

Great post!
 
You know what else is funny? When people use the argument that cutters work because they don't want to get TOO big. Well, use LOWER DOSAGES!

And as far a s"feeling" supplements, well, naturally you're going to "feel" a central nervous stimulant! I don't make a CNS product. But the results of supps like UNLEASHED, VIGOR, BIG BLAST, ZIP etc and certainly be SEEN after a few weeks.

AND BTW: Cattle isn't bred to be muscular. They're bred to be fat.
 
Nelson Montana said:
You know what else is funny? When people use the argument that cutters work because they don't want to get TOO big. Well, use LOWER DOSAGES!

And as far a s"feeling" supplements, well, naturally you're going to "feel" a central nervous stimulant! I don't make a CNS product. But the results of supps like UNLEASHED, VIGOR, BIG BLAST, ZIP etc and certainly be SEEN after a few weeks.

now with that i have to agree people saying they dont want to get too big ... like this shit works overnight ...
 
Nelson Montana said:
You know what else is funny? When people use the argument that cutters work because they don't want to get TOO big. Well, use LOWER DOSAGES!

And as far a s"feeling" supplements, well, naturally you're going to "feel" a central nervous stimulant! I don't make a CNS product. But the results of supps like UNLEASHED, VIGOR, BIG BLAST, ZIP etc and certainly be SEEN after a few weeks.

AND BTW: Cattle isn't bred to be muscular. They're bred to be fat.


Who gives a shit what reason someone has to do a cutter? If that's what they want to do, then that's what they should do. Who are you to say to someone how they should run their cycles based upon your personal feelings of how gear should be used? If someone doesn't want to get too big (which is subjective) then, using the juice to get cut, and keep the mass sounds like a good course to follow.


If 'm 5'8 and 220 lbs, and I don't want to get bigger, but I want get leaner and stay strong, a cutter is a great way to go.
 
dabuffguy said:
Who gives a shit what reason someone has to do a cutter? If that's what they want to do, then that's what they should do. Who are you to say to someone how they should run their cycles based upon your personal feelings of how gear should be used? If someone doesn't want to get too big (which is subjective) then, using the juice to get cut, and keep the mass sounds like a good course to follow.


If 'm 5'8 and 220 lbs, and I don't want to get bigger, but I want get leaner and stay strong, a cutter is a great way to go.

Actually, I've seen a lot of guys on this boad and at the gym who are "big" that need to either get on a cutter or do some cutting. So if they want to keep their muscle mass, and want to use gear to lose fat, then that is fine by me as well.

But I suppose that is just my opinion. What I consider big and unpleasing to the eye, another person may consider a good looking "freak".
 
Ross said:
What are you talking about bro? I can tell you are bad news...

Ross said:
*Steroids are used to either build muscle mass and strength, or to reduce bodyfat while preserving muscle and increasing definition.

Nelson, your advice is horrible. You are actually telling bodybuilders to reduce their calories and increase cardio WITHOUT using any ANABOLIC STEROIDS, are you insane?

I don't care if you are a COMPLETE NOVICE with only 1 or 2 cycles under your belt, you should NEVER reduce your calories and increase cardio in an all-natural state, you are begging to lose everything you accomplished while ON CYCLE.

How is this horrible advice??? If you are bulking you are taking in excess calories to grow so tip one to lose weight, cut the cals back. Tip 2 throw in more cardio to further drop calories putting you in a defecit causing your body to burn fat for energy.
 
Big_BK said:
How is this horrible advice??? If you are bulking you are taking in excess calories to grow so tip one to lose weight, cut the cals back. Tip 2 throw in more cardio to further drop calories putting you in a defecit causing your body to burn fat for energy.

If you are "cutting calories" and performing "more cardio to further drop calories" without the use of Anabolic Steroids, you WILL inevitably lose muscle mass, and a significant amount.

Don't be SILLY; if you are trying to reduce bodyfat, do it the right way.
 
lol im just trying to say that u need to be in a defecit to lose weight, What is the right way in your book? Be on juice?
 
Ross said:
If you are "cutting calories" and performing "more cardio to further drop calories" without the use of Anabolic Steroids, you WILL inevitably lose muscle mass, and a significant amount.

Don't be SILLY; if you are trying to reduce bodyfat, do it the right way.
Yep... great sound advice there.
 
swole said:
i lean bulk

or should i say

i stay lean while bulking??

i'm confused :(

cool thing is about this primo and test run i only gained about 12lbs but i'm so much bigger and leaner it's incredible

all on maintenance calories, with the occasional day of stuffing my face with everything

i just watch and listen to my body - if i'm gaining bad weight i look at what i've been eating and make changes

i don't do cardio llolool

same here i can take all bulking stuff and still get lean my body just will not hold water like it used too...i used to do just 500mgs of test a week and put like 10lbs of water on a week...i do no cardio at all and eat farely decent.....i train so hard tho im pretty much doing cardio while training
 
on gear or not , people should try to increase their activity levels before attempting to decrease calories.
This way, the body holds on to more muscle. Even it makes sense for a newbie.

Also Dr. Berardi calls this G-flux.
 
aquatic_glories said:
on gear or not , people should try to increase their activity levels before attempting to decrease calories.
This way, the body holds on to more muscle. Even it makes sense for a newbie.

Also Dr. Berardi calls this G-flux.
ding ding ding... We have a winner. JB is probably the smartest mofo in the world. I've got the whole precision nutrition packet and am currently following one of the programs outlined on his site. :evil:
 
aquatic_glories said:
on gear or not , people should try to increase their activity levels before attempting to decrease calories.
This way, the body holds on to more muscle. Even it makes sense for a newbie.

Also Dr. Berardi calls this G-flux.

I agree!
 
wulfgar said:
Basically you should ALWAYS be training for maximal size and muscle

If you want to get lean add some cardio, drop your carbs and take some thermos

Ross said:
LOL

Pics? :rolleyes:

Ross...open mouth insert foot
 
Ross said:
I really can't believe you actually write bodybuilding books.

Sorry, I have to call it like it is, you are FULL OF SHIT Nelson. You must live in your own little reality to believe even half of the ridiculous things you say.

Get off your high horse and get some experience...
We do not speak to each other like this on this site ross. I don't give a fucking rats ass who the fuck you think you are. Have some respect when you talk to people on this site. I am not going to say it again. :heart: :heart:

O welcome back.
 
swole said:
I'm a humble guy so very rarely do I get into these heated discussions. I like to read about the general science and logic behind everything. I sketch an outline based on this feedback yet use my own colors to design training routines, cycles, diet.

I respect a lot of people on this board for the different opinions and reasoning they provide, but to downright insult eachother is absolutely ridiculous and won't be tolerated.

Keep the discussion clean. If you truly believe in your methods, then explain them with TACT.
Sorry bro did not see you in this thread. :heart:
 
needtogetaas said:
We do not speak to each other like this on this site ross. I don't give a fucking rats ass who the fuck you think you are. Have some respect when you talk to people on this site. I am not going to say it again. :heart: :heart:

O welcome back.


we do drop f bombs though loll
 
I am in total agreement with Ross, in a natural state you will definately burn more muscle then you think , when a strict diet and cardio are increased. I have been through it many times. BK how old are you?
 
bw1 said:
I trained for 15 years before I ever touched gear. Train hard, eat hard

That and Nelsons are both great posts. Too bad people will just dismiss them because they "researched" for 2-3 days. :rolleyes:
 
no matter who u agree with .. most important is nelson wasnt tryin to be-little us board members .. wish u guys could disagree with out tryin to put each other down so much .. i enjoy reading both of your posts ..
 
Ross said:
Steroids are either used in a CALORIE SURPLUS to gain muscle mass, or they are used in a CALORIE DEFECIT to PRESERVE muscle mass while REDUCING BODYFAT. Plain and simple. :)

If you ATTEMPT to reduce bodyfat in an all-natural state, you will NOT be happy 8 weeks later. :(


It depends on what kind of cardio you are doing. I've trained people who want to keep size and lose fat. So after checking their diets I had them do some low intensity cardio that will elevate their heart rate but not bother the ATP-PC system.

My favorite ones were fast walking for 30-45 mins or a stairmaster for the same time.

By keeping the heartrate up for such a long period of time with constant movements (20-30 mins) your body begins to enter a process of fat oxidation. It burns fat for energy and spares the muscle.

After 8-10 weeks we checked their BF % and lean body mass. The LBM was always at LEAST the same. Most gained some LBM too.

Granted, they weren't trying to lose 20% BF or anything that drastic, but 4-6 percent isn't a terrible feat to do unless you are already very low.
 
a few things.

it depends whether you are talking about someone at 15+% bf or someone below 12% bf. at 15+% bf muscle is easy to retain while dieting, generally you are above your genetic median for bodyfat and are actually bringing your body closer to it's own ideal. once you decide to go to single digit bodyfat the use of AAS is very necessary to prevent significant muscle and strength loss.

all the time people generalize on this board. it's ridiculous, even the moderators with all their knowledge just try to make blanket statements which do not apply to everyone.

every scenario is unique.

what i think nelson doesn't like is the idea of a regular somewhat fit guy using winstrol to get "ripped" for the beach. and yes i agree this is stupid but at the same time who cares?

to say that unless someone is 225+ they have no need to use aas to cut is just not applicable to everyone.

yes it gets annoying to see skinny guys using gear to have a physique that is barely better than average, but isn't it just as annoying to see bloated dbol,deca,and test bros with over 15% bf?

it is safe for me to assume that everyone here outside of powerlifters want to be both big and lean! how big and how lean is a personal choice! why have a rant on this?

and another thing, steroids DO reduce fat in a dose dependent manner, and what makes them even more appropriate for this purpose is that they can reduce fat from specific areas i.e. visceral fat and abdominal subcutaneous fat. and yes different steroids have different effects regarding this. this is FACT proven by medical science.

however this statement needs to be countered with an understanding that doing a cycle w/ anavar or tren will not drop 20 pounds of fat off your frame unless you are significantly below maintenance cals, more like 5-6 at maintenance cals while gaining mass, or almost unlimited potential for fat loss with minimal muscle loss at cals significantly below maintenance.
 
This discussion was never meant to be a battle over what people should do.

As far as I'm concerned, you can shoot 3 grams a day and sit on the couch and eat potato chips.

The statement is more toward a common misunderstanding. People come here for advice and that's what I'm giving.

Too many people use steroids as a diet aid. That's like using gold to fill potholes. It's a waste.

You wanna do it? Knock yourself out, but don't throw insults. Provide information. If you can.

Because of too much erroneous information lots of guys are using gear in a way that isn't best utilized. I stand by that. .
 
10001110101 said:
a few things.

it depends whether you are talking about someone at 15+% bf or someone below 12% bf. at 15+% bf muscle is easy to retain while dieting, generally you are above your genetic median for bodyfat and are actually bringing your body closer to it's own ideal. once you decide to go to single digit bodyfat the use of AAS is very necessary to prevent significant muscle and strength loss.

all the time people generalize on this board. it's ridiculous, even the moderators with all their knowledge just try to make blanket statements which do not apply to everyone.

every scenario is unique.

what i think nelson doesn't like is the idea of a regular somewhat fit guy using winstrol to get "ripped" for the beach. and yes i agree this is stupid but at the same time who cares?

to say that unless someone is 225+ they have no need to use aas to cut is just not applicable to everyone.

yes it gets annoying to see skinny guys using gear to have a physique that is barely better than average, but isn't it just as annoying to see bloated dbol,deca,and test bros with over 15% bf?

it is safe for me to assume that everyone here outside of powerlifters want to be both big and lean! how big and how lean is a personal choice! why have a rant on this?

and another thing, steroids DO reduce fat in a dose dependent manner, and what makes them even more appropriate for this purpose is that they can reduce fat from specific areas i.e. visceral fat and abdominal subcutaneous fat. and yes different steroids have different effects regarding this. this is FACT proven by medical science.

however this statement needs to be countered with an understanding that doing a cycle w/ anavar or tren will not drop 20 pounds of fat off your frame unless you are significantly below maintenance cals, more like 5-6 at maintenance cals while gaining mass, or almost unlimited potential for fat loss with minimal muscle loss at cals significantly below maintenance.

i agree--and i would add age dependent--(I am 41.5) that is, i find test ands a tiny bit of deca helps me get into summer/racing shape (or just into shape this summer--injured last summer) because i can recover from progressivley longer bike rides (two long ones - 5+ hours) a week as opposed to 1 every other week. so in a sense it is a cutter for me--but as a side effect not as direct effect---if that makes sense to anyone.

after 40--i am not sure diet and training alone is enough for what i want---
 
james629 said:
I am in total agreement with Ross, in a natural state you will definately burn more muscle then you think , when a strict diet and cardio are increased. I have been through it many times. BK how old are you?
Yeah of course you will burn more if you dont have hormones telling your body to preserve muscle. I was just trying to get the point across that nelson was not talking out of his ass, you need to be in a defecit to cut. period.
 
Yes I agree with Nelson's original statement. After all we are meant to be BodyBUILDERS after all. I also agree with others that suggest there is no one fix for all. My belief is that if your continually strive to increase overall body mass, the increased muscle mass eventually becomes your "fat burner". What I think happens on forums is that there is a general belief that AAS is necessary to both increase overall body mass & increase lean muscle mass.Those that have been using gear for a while soon find out that its only part of the equation & a relatively small part at that.
 
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