Drop sets..

[mikefear]

You guys find that you get a lot of growth from throwing in drop sets?

I'm really started to love them.. I'll typically finish off an exercise with a nice drop set.. I'll do 2-3 sets of some heavy weight for 8-10 reps, then my last set will be 20-25 reps dropping the weight every 5 or so reps until I feel like I'm going to die.

Anyone else a big fan? The pumps you get are incredible.

 

[justinjones1963]

I love drops sets too. I usually stick with 8-12 reps and (depending on the exercise) drop the weight until I can barely do 10-20 lbs.

leg presses on the other hand are the best. The freaking pumps are insane and I love it when I can barely walk afterwards.

 

[nolakidd]

Drop sets are the shit, sick pumps

 

[pitbullrocco]

anyone incorporate them in their 5x5 routine?

 

[mikefear]

Hell yeah, when you can barely do a tricep pushdown with 15 lbs, you know your shit is jacked.

 

[THE GOOD SUN]

Hell yeah, when you can barely do a tricep pushdown with 15 lbs, you know your shit is jacked.

mike you're getting entirely too evil ...lol

 

[al420]

Reading all this "sick pumps" shit makes me think I am reading a M&F magazine

Pump is not in any way an indication of progress - adding weight to the bar however is. While drop sets will get your muscles filled w/ lactic acid and then w/ blood they are by no means doing anything IMO.

And HELL NO you wouldn't want to do them on a 5x5 - it is a strength program for people who want to be strong - we don't drop shit!

 

[pitbullrocco]

And HELL NO you wouldn't want to do them on a 5x5 - it is a strength program for people who want to be strong - we don't drop shit!

lol

nah....say it aint so 420.....

damn, speaking of.....its about that time.....brb

 

[ErikZ]

=[

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Reading all this "sick pumps" shit makes me think I am reading a M&F magazine

Pump is not in any way an indication of progress - adding weight to the bar however is. While drop sets will get your muscles filled w/ lactic acid and then w/ blood they are by no means doing anything IMO.

And HELL NO you wouldn't want to do them on a 5x5 - it is a strength program for people who want to be strong - we don't drop shit!

spoken like a true powerlifter..

the pump is just as important as the weight, in some cases more so, when it comes to bodybuilding.

drop sets are a training variant, one that can produce results. But its just one variant.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

btw- go heavy or go home

 

[Vascular Freak]

I don't really like drop sets myself, I have found the best way to increase intensity is with rest-pause sets. This way you are sticking with heavy weight, and are only hitting fast twitch fibers.

I normally use a weight which will allow me to fail at 7 reps or so, then rest for 5-10 secs, and power up 1-3 more reps. Unless your doing shoulders, or biceps I feel that drop sets give you a "soft" "stringy" look rather than the dense, vascular look that is achieved by rest-pause sets. Try them.......stay heavy, go hard, leave sore!

 

[B0ARDIN087]

anyone incorporate them in their 5x5 routine?

doing drop sets on a 5x5 is probably one of the worst things you can do, it completley violates what 5x5 is about.

 

[pitbullrocco]

doing drop sets on a 5x5 is probably one of the worst things you can do, it completley violates what 5x5 is about.

nah, are you serious? you can't be. i don't believe it. really? you promise? you got links to scientific studies.

jesus h. i can't believe any even replied to that statement.

 

[timtim]

Pump is not in any way an indication of progress - adding weight to the bar however is. While drop sets will get your muscles filled w/ lactic acid and then w/ blood they are by no means doing anything IMO.

a solid periodized training cycle would include all training components. bb's benefit greatly from drop sets. not everyone cares how strong they are. bench press doesnt walk down the street.

 

[bas4lizzife]

i dont use them very often but plan to soon. i have a hard time handling volume and grow fine with 8-10 sets for something like chest or delts. I may go to very low volume but on my last exercise (hammer strength chest machines for example) use drop sets or rest pause, or some kind of intensity technique.

 

[Guinness5.0]

the pump is just as important as the weight, in some cases more so, when it comes to bodybuilding.

Could you perhaps expand on this? Everything I've read indicates that a pump is just a temporary response with no lasting effects. If this is not true I'd be curious to know what the longer term effects of a pump are. Thanks.

 

[al420]

a solid periodized training cycle would include all training components. bb's benefit greatly from drop sets. not everyone cares how strong they are. bench press doesnt walk down the street.

Yes it would - all the COMPOUND lifts. Isolation work is for ladies, period. If you are big and not strong then you are a fool, period.

Bench press dosen;t walk down the street. So, what do you bench??????????

 

[Twoguns]

WTF? Since when is a quality pump not important. I can't believe what I am reading.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Could you perhaps expand on this? Everything I've read indicates that a pump is just a temporary response with no lasting effects. If this is not true I'd be curious to know what the longer term effects of a pump are. Thanks.

pump stretches the muscle fascia which is one of the primary limiting factors of growth. it places a different kind of strain on the muscle that heavy load bearing does not. Heavy load bearing in many cases PRIMARILY trains the CNS, muscular work is secondary-- especially with explosive movements and near maximal lifts. Now negative work on the other hand places tremendous strain on both the CNS and the muscle fibers

 

[SgtSlaughter]

WTF? Since when is a quality pump not important. I can't believe what I am reading.

You're getting the strength training and powerlifting point of view as well.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

pump stretches the muscle fascia which is one of the primary limiting factors of growth. it places a different kind of strain on the muscle that heavy load bearing does not. Heavy load bearing in many cases PRIMARILY trains the CNS, muscular work is secondary-- especially with explosive movements and near maximal lifts. Now negative work on the other hand places tremendous strain on both the CNS and the muscle fibers

I never knew it streched the fascia...

Now Macro... would "too much" pump be a bad thing... or training hard for a significant period of time beyond once one achieves a pump... I like your in depth posts

 

[Guinness5.0]

Well, I have to admit that I have a tough time believing that fascia stretching accounts for growth. If the stimulus and response for growth is there, the membrane that covers the muscle fiber is not going to curtail that growth. There's no way in hell that a pump could make it stretch while growth at the molecular level could not.

And even when not specifically setting out to get a 'pump', every workout I do results in a pump to one degree or another, so I don't see how training specifically to get a more pronounced pump is going to omprove response by an appreciable amount. If that were the case, then why don't you see guys with disproportionately large lower back areas? Extreme lower back pumps are commonplace among AAS users, yet I've neither read about nor experienced any pronounced grwoth in this area, which would indicate to me that there isn't much benefit that results specifically from the pump.

True, heavy singles involve the nueral system heavily. A good way to sidestep that factor would be to do multiple sets of, say, triples and get the desired muscular effect as well as going heavy. You get the best of both worlds - heavy weights and muscles that ge lots of work. BTW when I say 'work' I mean weight on bar x number of times lifted.

And explosive movements are fantastic for growth - the amount of force/power they demand will stress the muscles AND the nervous system. Yes, exposive lifts heavily involve the nervous system, but it's not as though the nervous system can perform actual mechanical work. That task still falls squarely and solely on the muscles. Ever seen the traps on an Oly lifter?

Still no sale on pumps being relevant. There are lots of people (myself included) who give pumps no heed and are none the worse off for it. Increasing poundages on the big lifts matters. Eating appropriatley for your goals matters. Drugs matter. The metabolic side effects of lifting, trace mineral intake, meal timing, etc. do not. Powerlifter, bodybuilder, Oly lifter, it doesn't matter. Muscle is muscle. It gets stimulated by doing work. It grows by being fed and allowing for recovery. THe further one gets away from that, the more their wheels will spin.

 

[1968Charger]

anyone incorporate them in their 5x5 routine?

i have on beach presses with the same weight it made my press go up for sure

 

[Tweakle]

Facial stretching could potentiate more growth, as there's more room for the muscle to swell into.. but I don't think it could directly cause it. DC's stretching techniques made a difference to my chest but that could also have been the higher rep range I was using.

the 'pump' causes non contractile tissue to swell temporarily, training for strength causes muscle fibers to grow. Drop sets are not something I'd ever do as moving heavy weight for medium reps is plenty stimulation enough without burning me out for 'da pump'

 

[Guinness5.0]

Facial stretching could potentiate more growth, as there's more room for the muscle to swell into.. but I don't think it could directly cause it. DC's stretching techniques made a difference to my chest but that could also have been the higher rep range I was using.

I certainly wouldn't discount stretching as a good thing, and I am vaguely familiar with the notion of myofascial release and the role the fascia pays in our anatomy. I agree that stretching is good for recovery and would likely assist in growth.

Like I said, I just can't imagine a muscle not growing or even being limited by the fascia. I could be wrong, but that notion seems absurd to me (the fascial argument, not me being wrong ). People would be walking around the gym in pain from the tension of their muscles against the fascia if that was the case, wouldn't they?

If it's possible to manipulate the fascia with massage, I gotta believe that muscular growth is not going to be affected by them whatsoever - that growth is gonna happen whether the fascia like it or not

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Like I said, I just can't imagine a muscle not growing or even being limited by the fascia. I could be wrong, but that notion seems absurd to me (the fascial argument, not me being wrong ).

calves is a prime example of fascial limitation on growth.

as a note- most sprinters actually tear the fascia of the calves through training

 

[Guinness5.0]

calves is a prime example of fascial limitation on growth.

as a note- most sprinters actually tear the fascia of the calves through training

Do you have a link handy that discusses this (or myofascia in general)? I am forming my opinion based on logic, which doesn't necessarily follow science.

EDIT: Actually, what you wrote supports my point - the fascia didn't restrict growth; growth overcame the fascia. Hence, the fascia wasn't the limiting factor at all.

 

[solidspine]

I change my weekly routine about every 5 weeks, and daily, e.g. tomorrow I do abs and arms, I will do something different every week,




But I always go for the max pump, and the maximum weight.





Since my elbows are shot, can’t do skull crushers, but will think of 5 other triceps exercises and pump them to the max, before I am done.

 

[medrep]

drop sets are fun until your struggling with 20lb cable curls and a hot milf walks by then you just look like a little bitch

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Do you have a link handy that discusses this (or myofascia in general)? I am forming my opinion based on logic, which doesn't necessarily follow science.

EDIT: Actually, what you wrote supports my point - the fascia didn't restrict growth; growth overcame the fascia. Hence, the fascia wasn't the limiting factor at all.

particularly with the case of calves the muscle fascia is a growth limiting factor for most people, the type of training and volume that they (sprinters) do leads to tearing of the fascia to allow for muscular growth.

the fascia is a limiting factor. Though its certainly not the only one. The golgi tendon apparatus also significantly affects muscular growth and more importantly strength

 

[fortunatesun]

I believe all of us have slightly missed the mark in this arguement, except for the contention that pump is of more use to bodybuilders than powerlifters.
The following quotes are from Kelly Bagget of Higher-Faster-Sports.com. I'll provide the link so you can get the full context of what I've reprinted. I also recommend the entire article as it both contains lots of useful information and dispells many common misconceptions about muscle growth.

A Training Philosophy For Solid Mass Gain

Growth is stimulated from a combination of tension , total work , and fatigue . As we'll see in a minute... progressively increasing tension at a given level of work is the primary stimulus for ongoing gains in growth. Factors related to fatigue might add around 10% to that.

1. Tension

To get maximal tension on all available fibers in a given muscle requires full motor recruitment in that muscle. This can occur 2 ways:

A: Lifting a heavy load (80%+) so that all the muscle cells are firing from the first rep. (example: lifting an 80% load for 5 reps)

B: Lifting a light load in a fatigued state so that your muscles "think" the load is heavy. (example: lifting a 50% load with short rest intervals and having the weight feel heavier than your ass after a 5 mile run.)


Any time you put forth a maximal effort and have to really strain to move the weight, regardless of the weight on the bar, all the muscle fibers in the working muscle turn on and "tense" up. This is tension. Get a muscle fiber to tense up often enough in a workout and it gets damaged. Your muscles don't know how much weight they're lifting, they only know they're working. It's not necessarily the weight that induces hypertrophy but the muscles "go through" while lifting the weight.

2. What's the difference between heavy and light loads for tension?

Having said that, there's a difference between lifting a light load in a state of tension that "feels" heavy and one that "is" heavy. The main difference between the 2 is that the heavier load will induce earlier recruitment of the fast twitch fibers and more eccentric microtrauma during the lowering phase of a movement which is the primary stimulus for growth of muscle protein myofibrills, while the lighter load lifted in a state of fatigue, often associated with more repetitions, will tend to induce more growth through increased "energy and water storage" mechanisms.

3. Making strength increases and getting stronger over time is all about is all about increasing tension, while getting a "pump" is more about total work and fatigue. Suffice to say, the heavier you lift with a muscle or muscle group, the more tension you create in that muscle. Your muscles become damaged under tension and repair themselves by getting a little bigger so that they can better resist the load.

4. The "pump"

The more total work and temporary fatigue (due to lack of oxygen), you create in a muscle, (through high volume training, high rep sets, drop sets, static holds, rest-pause, etc.) the bigger the "pump" you tend to get. These methods are highly associated with the "Weider" principles.

7. Tension vs. Fatigue

Results that come from tension take place over a long period of time and tend to stick around for a long period of time. Results that come from "fatigue" (A.K.A. the "pump") occur much quicker and dissipate just as quickly.

9.Fatigue makes muscles "swole"

Although the growth that occurs from fatigue accounts for only maybe 5-10% of size increases, it gives the impression of contributing a lot more than that, since the glycogen storage and training methods associated with it also give one a tremendous and immediate "pump". That pump, which occurs from blood engorging the tissue, can temporarily increase the size of a muscle by probably 20% (which is why you never measure your arms cold or carb depleted.

10. If you increase your muscle mass by 50 lbs., about 45 pounds of that mass will come through improvement in tension related processes, and about 5 lbs. from "fatigue" processes. However, the extra 5 lbs. of fatigue related growth will be very "pretty".

11. The Recipe

Take a bodybuilder and give him give him a heavy dose of progressively increasing tension over a long period of time, along with some fatigue, big eating, and big scale weight increases, and you get a really big bodybuilder with round and full muscles.

The article continues with useful examples and training splits for those of you that work out.

 

[timtim]

Bench press dosen;t walk down the street. So, what do you bench??????????

365 at 5'5", 185.

Like I said, I just can't imagine a muscle not growing or even being limited by the fascia.

then you dont know much about anatomy and physiology. why do all the top pro's get deep tissue, ART, and stone therapy? to destroy scar tissue and tear the fascia to improve growth. its really simple. my chiropractor has about 6 guys from my gym going once a week for fascia stretching.

if you dont see why it why fascia is limiting muscle growth, here's a quick explanation. the fascia is a predetermined "garbage bag" surrounding your muscles and is skin tight. it will only allow for so much growth to occur and this is predetermined. if a skin tight garbage bag rips the garbage spills out. in your body these rips would allow for more contractile units to form hence increasing the size of the muscle. this is the purpose of synthol.

If it's possible to manipulate the fascia with massage, I gotta believe that muscular growth is not going to be affected by them whatsoever - that growth is gonna happen whether the fascia like it or not

go get one of these "massages", they are excrutiatingly painful. i had it done on my forearm yesterday, more for scar tissue than fascia stretching. i had the "massage" and moving stem done. i left dripping sweat.

it seems from your posts you are making opinions with no real life experience on this subject. its pretty cool really, you might benefit from looking into it. the stuff works but is very, very painful.

 

[Twoguns]

that growth is gonna happen whether the fascia like it or not

Hence my strech marks

 

[silver_shadow]

so i guess what some here are saying is that hypertrophy will happen because of pump rather than lifting heavy? did i get that right?

 

[trez]

Am being a bit of a posting whore atm... just wanted to say that I love this thread. Intelligent discussion of muscle growth etc it's great to hear from everyone

Trez

 

[Twoguns]

so i guess what some here are saying is that hypertrophy will happen because of pump rather than lifting heavy? did i get that right?

some are saying that, others are not. I think that, now stick with me, I lift heavy to get a good pump. I lift heavier to get a better pump. then my muscles get bigger. that is my bare bones take on it

 

[al420]

Dosen't the saying go - "Everybody wants to be big but nobody wants to lift heavy ass weights"

Seems as though this thread proves it up!

 

[timtim]

Dosen't the saying go - "Everybody wants to be big but nobody wants to lift heavy ass weights"

like i said earlier in the thread, there is a time and place for every lifting strategy. lifting heavy constantly will lead to alot of injuries and i know this from personal experience. i still implement max effort training protocols as much as i can but my elbows and shoulders wont push that much anymore. im actually seeing an ART chiropractor right now for both elbows and my right shoulder. since i cant lift heavy for now and what seems like the next few months, should i quit all together? i mean i cant go as heavy as possible so the other training strategies are crap so i should just stop? doesnt make much sense. much like lifting as heavy as you can all the time. periodized routines will result in more gains than one style of training (ie, max effort). and this includes training for the pump.

 

[al420]

"i still implement max effort training protocols as much as i can but my elbows and shoulders wont push that much anymore"

Then dosen't the definition of "heavy" change? Heavy is relative IMO. I hear ya though - heavy training is deff going to lead an injury now and again.

 

[theprofessor]

doing drop sets on a 5x5 is probably one of the worst things you can do, it completley violates what 5x5 is about.

not nececarily...
do a drop set off of your one-rep max with a three rep weight for a single or two... and then drop down to a 5-rep weight...
..in one set of course...

 

[al420]

not nececarily...
do a drop set off of your one-rep max with a three rep weight for a single or two... and then drop down to a 5-rep weight...
..in one set of course...

Nececarily!

The 5x5 is all about adding weight to the bar. How the hell could you incorporate drop sets and not miss a fucking lift the next training session - I call BS.

 

[Guinness5.0]

timtim-

You are absolutely right that I am drawing some potentially hasty conclusions. I really have no direct experience with this. I am basing my comments on speculation. But the thing I still hold to is this: assuming healthy, 'normal' fascia (not excessice scar tissue, minimal twisting, etc.) that they will not hinder growth.

Would you say that qualifying my thoughts as I have above is still off base? If so, I would like to know how that would be (not trying to call you out - I seriously can't grasp how this could possibly happen assuming 'normalcy'). I just can't see how an otherwise pliable part of the anatomy would just refuse to budge in the face of growth at the molecular level. I mean, it 'gives' enough to allow for the pump, so how could it just clamp down and not allow growth?

Perhaps we are discussing two totally different aspects of this, and this thread is now just a big semantic clusterfuck

PS come on down to the training forum some time. Thare are lots of us who are in to periodization and it would be great to have another regular who knows their shit.

 

[mikefear]

lol, my post wasnt meant to discuss the pump. i simply said that i got mad pumps from dropsets.

i use them because I can get more volume in ... lets say I do X weight for 10 reps, X weight for 8 reps and X weight for 8 reps again.. why stop there? i got my 3rd and final set, so then i add even more until the point of failure. voila, more volume.

 

[fortunatesun]

guinness, it might be helpful to think of it not so much as because the fascia are a hindrance but creating a fast lane so that the glycogen and O2 have an easier time getting there. Same as making a pizza or apple pie: your going to give the dough a few whacks to make the glutens more malleable. This allows air to penetrate easier and you don't end up with something flat and rock hard.

 

[al420]

lol, my post wasnt meant to discuss the pump. i simply said that i got mad pumps from dropsets.

i use them because I can get more volume in ... lets say I do X weight for 10 reps, X weight for 8 reps and X weight for 8 reps again.. why stop there? i got my 3rd and final set, so then i add even more until the point of failure. voila, more volume.

W/ no weight - no thanks

 

[macrophage69alpha]

the reason that you feel the pain of the "pump" to a great extent is the limiting restriction of the fascia.

its true that the muscle fascia will allow for a decent amount of growth, usually (there are exceptions and huge number of indvidual ones). But individual elacticity of the fascia varies, if its not particularly elastic it often requires tearing for growth past a certain point.

pumping allows for greater fascial stretching, allowing for the muscle to have room to grow. this is not always sufficient and further means may be neccesary (active release, deep tissue massage, and even tearing of the fascia). the more flexible the fascia the greater the pump failure point (where pump no longer allows for significant contraction) allowing for greater load and volume before reaching "pump" related failure.


heavy training can also stretch and tear the fascia, but it can also stretch and tear muscles, ligaments and tendons. These sub structures, depending on the person, may be outstripped by muscular and CNS strength. So some people can train super heavy and make great gains without injury and some cant. Some people are "blessed" with great tendons and ligaments, some arent. Just like some people have great fascial elacticity and some dont.



basically training reccomendations are just that reccomendations, what is great for someone else is not necessarily great for you. But to look at one method as the method is to discount much knowledge that is of value and could be of great benefit to you.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

as a note- there is a certain appeal to seeing the bar bend from the weight on it. But its not for everyone and after a time many people just cant do it anymore, they just arent "made" for it. Some people can. Most cant.

FInd what works best for you, but dont discount other methods and training styles. Incorporating them to some extent often can yield very pleasing results.

JMHO

btw- farmers walk is great (and generally well tolerated by anyone)

 

[timtim]

guinness

thanks for the look. i dont have time now to post but i will definately be checking out the training forum. when i have time i'll come back to this thread later tonight.

 

[silver_shadow]

Dosen't the saying go - "Everybody wants to be big but nobody wants to lift heavy ass weights"

Seems as though this thread proves it up!

i believe that it was said something more like: "everybody wants to be a bodybuilder but ain't no one wanna lift heavy ass weights" - R Coleman.

 

[silver_shadow]

some are saying that, others are not. I think that, now stick with me, I lift heavy to get a good pump. I lift heavier to get a better pump. then my muscles get bigger. that is my bare bones take on it

it's funny you should say that cause i usually get pumps from pushing weights very quickly for reps without much rest between sets. and pushing weight very quick for reps -> less weight. and to top that, once the pump sets in, it actually impedes lifting more (and lifting heavy obviously) cause my muscles are so swollen with BLOOD which refuses to leave quick enough. and i'm also going to assume that when this happens, fresh oxygenated blood too is impeded from entering the muscle which should explain why the muscle feels tired and sore and cannot lift more... all that's just speculation though. so it seems to me that pumps actually impede work getting done - work that would promote hypertrophy. NOTE: i'm not saying high reps are useless (just before someone thinks i'm trashing the use of higher reps).

anyway, i really wonder how much of difference a pump is going to make to fascia stretching. whether or not fascia stretching itself will give more room for hypertrophy - i'm not sure, all i can say is that DC believes this to be the case and it seems to be working well for his trainees... and i don't recall reading anywhere in dante's articles that his trainees cause fascia stretching by inducing pumps. in fact, DC stretche, from my experience in doing them, actually forces away the pump... something to think about don't you think?

BTW i got some serious stretch marks on my triceps, bi's and pecs within weeks of doing DC stretches.

 

[blueta2]

Interesting thread. I think drop sets for certain muscles is good. I would say, and this is just my opinion, that doing it for bi's and tri's is good.
Larger muscle groups should not incorp drop sets.

 

[Guinness5.0]

guinness, it might be helpful to think of it not so much as because the fascia are a hindrance but creating a fast lane so that the glycogen and O2 have an easier time getting there. .

I was thinking something along these lines whiie pondering this topic during 'meditation' (taking a dump ) and that came across as a reasonable benefit of fascial stretching - meaning, tight fascia might restrict nutrient flow. Great minds think alike (and sometimes I get lucky).

Macro: I see what you mean about the fascia being a bit 'indirect in their effects on grwoth. Also, I'm totally in agreement with you that there is no 'one' way, that there is variation between individuals, etc etc etc. I do believe, however, that the surest, most predictable way to improve one's physique is to emphasize improvement on the big lifts, whether that be for sets of three, five, 12, 20, whatever. Getting better at making the muscles do what they're made to do is what counts, and there is more than one strategy that works. Of course things such as precontest dieting and whatnot will change that goal - I just mean big-picture here.

I tend to agree with the article the FS quoted - that getting stronger is going to account for most growth, and the metabolic effects of 'pump work' and whatnot will provide a pleasing appearance and fullness, albeit in the sarcoplasma in the form of increased nutrient uptake rather than 'actual' muscle.

I hope that gets my meaning across as intended. I don't mean to shit on anyone's point of view. However, I don't take things at face value, esp. in THIS endeavor, which is so laden with false promises, gimmicks, and quick fixes.

 

[al420]

Why does no one think that if you have trained properly you will not have "gas in the tank" to go grap lighter weights. I am personally pushing the envelope every single workout - no fluff needed to grow big and strong.

Train hard and heavy till you puke. No exceptions, ever.

 

[theprofessor]

Why does no one think that if you have trained properly you will not have "gas in the tank" to go grap lighter weights. I am personally pushing the envelope every single workout - no fluff needed to grow big and strong.

Train hard and heavy till you puke. No exceptions, ever.

ok... like i said above... hit your one rep max... example... a 405 deadlift...
now because its your max, or very close to your max... you cant get a second rep... so you immediately drop down to say, 365... which you normaly get for 3, but because you just hit 405... now you only get 2... then drop down to 350 and barely squeeze out two more... HOW THE FUCK IS THIS NOT PUSHING THE ENVELOPE?? no fluff here at all... simply going with your max and punishing yourself with weights that are still decently heavy...
i have puked doing this on two occasions... on squats both times...
if you had no "gas in the tank" then you'd better be lying crippled on the floor... because often when i'm done with squats... my legs collapse and i thank myself for using the safety catch bars...
youre telling me that after your last 5x set that you could not possibly pick up another weight, be it the bar or less, and do one rep?... because then... and only then have you truly maxed yourself out...

 

[solidspine]

Haven't done them in a while, give it a try in the AM

 

[SPOONY LUV]

Reading all this "sick pumps" shit makes me think I am reading a M&F magazine

Pump is not in any way an indication of progress - adding weight to the bar however is. While drop sets will get your muscles filled w/ lactic acid and then w/ blood they are by no means doing anything IMO.

And HELL NO you wouldn't want to do them on a 5x5 - it is a strength program for people who want to be strong - we don't drop shit!

Hopefully Arnold doesn't read this...He must have been doing something wrong all this time...

 

[1968Charger]

ok... like i said above... hit your one rep max... example... a 405 deadlift...
now because its your max, or very close to your max... you cant get a second rep... so you immediately drop down to say, 365... which you normaly get for 3, but because you just hit 405... now you only get 2... then drop down to 350 and barely squeeze out two more... HOW THE FUCK IS THIS NOT PUSHING THE ENVELOPE?? no fluff here at all... simply going with your max and punishing yourself with weights that are still decently heavy...
i have puked doing this on two occasions... on squats both times...
if you had no "gas in the tank" then you'd better be lying crippled on the floor... because often when i'm done with squats... my legs collapse and i thank myself for using the safety catch bars...
youre telling me that after your last 5x set that you could not possibly pick up another weight, be it the bar or less, and do one rep?... because then... and only then have you truly maxed yourself out...

i use what you said above and i go as heavy as possible and it works for me at the end of a training day i would do lets say cable cross overs for pecks and it being the last exersize for chest i would start out heavy as i can with good form and then do 4 sets by droping weight untill im cooked .

 

[silver_shadow]

Hopefully Arnold doesn't read this...He must have been doing something wrong all this time...

in between popping dbol candies

 

[silver_shadow]

ok... like i said above... hit your one rep max... example... a 405 deadlift...
now because its your max, or very close to your max... you cant get a second rep... so you immediately drop down to say, 365... which you normaly get for 3, but because you just hit 405... now you only get 2... then drop down to 350 and barely squeeze out two more... HOW THE FUCK IS THIS NOT PUSHING THE ENVELOPE?? no fluff here at all... simply going with your max and punishing yourself with weights that are still decently heavy...
i have puked doing this on two occasions... on squats both times...
if you had no "gas in the tank" then you'd better be lying crippled on the floor... because often when i'm done with squats... my legs collapse and i thank myself for using the safety catch bars...
youre telling me that after your last 5x set that you could not possibly pick up another weight, be it the bar or less, and do one rep?... because then... and only then have you truly maxed yourself out...

well i'm not sure al took exception to this method of backoff sets... there is a whole lot of training theory behind this method (which is a separate topic altogether) BUT... it applies to compound lifts like the DL as you have pointed out rightly. i think what al and the rest were taking exception to was doing some fluff exercise like cable preacher curls or cable crossovers as a "drop set" to get a PUMP. key word being pump. i workout with backoff sets on exercises like BB bench, squats, BB rows, not on DLs (cause of the CNS drain after a max effort) but i make sure (by providing for enough of rest) that i DON'T get a pump. say, you drop down to a set of 6 or 8. this time it'll actually be easier then it would have been while you were pyramiding up (CNS adaptation to the load).

 

[al420]

ok... like i said above... hit your one rep max... example... a 405 deadlift... Who told you my one rep max??? now because its your max, or very close to your max... you cant get a second rep... so you immediately drop down to say, 365... which you normaly get for 3, but because you just hit 405... now you only get 2... then drop down to 350 and barely squeeze out two more... HOW THE FUCK IS THIS NOT PUSHING THE ENVELOPE?? It is, point taken no fluff here at all... simply going with your max and punishing yourself with weights that are still decently heavy...
i have puked doing this on two occasions... on squats both times...
if you had no "gas in the tank" then you'd better be lying crippled on the floor... because often when i'm done with squats... my legs collapse and i thank myself for using the safety catch bars...now that is failure!youre telling me that after your last 5x set that you could not possibly pick up another weight, be it the bar or less, and do one rep?... because then... and only then have you truly maxed yourself out...

I am a firm believer in adding weight to the bar, not taking it off. I do agree w/ what you wrote. I guess I view drop sets as another BS fad brough on by the muscle mags and the AF'r workouts. I see morons in my gym doing drop sets daily - they are small and weak for the most part. I know it is more about diet and other things, but for me to progress in weights from week to week I have to watch volume - and if I am doing 20's then I will miss a lift the following week.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

you should try some of the bulgarian methods

 

[theprofessor]

I am a firm believer in adding weight to the bar, not taking it off. I do agree w/ what you wrote. I guess I view drop sets as another BS fad brough on by the muscle mags and the AF'r workouts. I see morons in my gym doing drop sets daily - they are small and weak for the most part. I know it is more about diet and other things, but for me to progress in weights from week to week I have to watch volume - and if I am doing 20's then I will miss a lift the following week.

heh... 405 is my one rep dead max as well... almost had 410 but was just shy the last few inches...
i usualy use this drop technique for my last set of an exersise... it beats the fuck out of you...
...last time i went moderately heavy i ended up pulling 225 for 22 reps... seemed like more of a cardio workout... so ive been keeping the weight heavy and doing great... a year ago i was deading 225 for 5...
the reason people fall for that super high rep drop set is because it does engourge the muscle with blood... and makes it look all swole... but its realy nothing you cant achieve with 5x5... it just may take a better mind-muscle connection imo...

 

[silver_shadow]

you should try some of the bulgarian methods

throw us some links bro.

 

[steelmass]

spoken like a true powerlifter..

the pump is just as important as the weight, in some cases more so, when it comes to bodybuilding.

drop sets are a training variant, one that can produce results. But its just one variant.

Cutler, Cormier, etc.. have an entire book about "The Pump" - pretty sure its important in bodybuilding.

 

[silver_shadow]

Cutler, Cormier, etc.. have an entire book about "The Pump" - pretty sure its important in bodybuilding.

absolutely... when combined with boatloads of gear

 

[mikefear]

heh... 405 is my one rep dead max as well... almost had 410 but was just shy the last few inches...
i usualy use this drop technique for my last set of an exersise... it beats the fuck out of you...
...last time i went moderately heavy i ended up pulling 225 for 22 reps... seemed like more of a cardio workout... so ive been keeping the weight heavy and doing great... a year ago i was deading 225 for 5...
the reason people fall for that super high rep drop set is because it does engourge the muscle with blood... and makes it look all swole... but its realy nothing you cant achieve with 5x5... it just may take a better mind-muscle connection imo...

That's where your wrong.. 5x5 is great for strength because it helps to train the CNS, but is not nearly as effective for hypertrophy when compared to a 4x10/3x8/3x10 type workout.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

That's where your wrong.. 5x5 is great for strength because it helps to train the CNS, but is not nearly as effective for hypertrophy when compared to a 4x10/3x8/3x10 type workout.

proof?

 

[al420]

Cutler, Cormier, etc.. have an entire book about "The Pump" - pretty sure its important in bodybuilding.

After watching Cutlers videos I am supprised he can write a sentence much less a book

I am not trying to hate here at all - I just believe firmly in adding weight to the bar - not dropping any - and I get my pumps from Dbol anyway........

BTW - your stats are sick.

 

[al420]

proof?

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

 

[mikefear]

proof?

More work = more muscle growth.

more volume = more work.

 

[silver_shadow]

That's where your wrong.. 5x5 is great for strength because it helps to train the CNS, but is not nearly as effective for hypertrophy when compared to a 4x10/3x8/3x10 type workout.

really?

 

[mikefear]

From what I've read, yes..

This is why you see PL'ers training in the 3-5 rep range working on strength and bb'ers working in the 10-12 rep range focusing on hypertrophy.. will both put on size + strength? hell yeah.. is one better for a certain goal? it certainly seems that way.

 

[silver_shadow]

explain ronnie coleman pulling 800x2 then

 

[al420]

I don't go off of "seems" I go off science, and you are completely wrong. PL'ers look like they do b/c of diet - same w/ BB's. Just look at your companys new spoksmodel - the monster Ulter posted a thread about - he keeps dieting down and he will look like a BBN but w/ PL strength - now that is something to shoot for.

 

[mikefear]

explain ronnie coleman pulling 800x2 then

Let's not compare any of us to Ronnie Coleman.. and he did that for fun. All the rest of his sets were in the 10-15 rep range.

 

[mikefear]

I don't go off of "seems" I go off science, and you are completely wrong. PL'ers look like they do b/c of diet - same w/ BB's. Just look at your companys new spoksmodel - the monster Ulter posted a thread about - he keeps dieting down and he will look like a BBN but w/ PL strength - now that is something to shoot for.

Did I say you couldn't get big off of a 5x5? nope.. i said you'll put on size and strength using either, and that once is typically preferred over the other to realize certain goals.

but lets be honest.. the same thing wont work for everyone even if trying to accomplish the same thing. some people will grow better off a 5x5 and some off a 3x10.. who knows.

 

[al420]

Well I have trained both ways - have you? The 5x5 is about a thousand times more taxing than any BB program I have seen and I have done them all.

 

[silver_shadow]

mike, perhaps you've never heard his famous quote then - about everyone wanting to be bodybuilders but no one wanting to lift heavy weights...

no we can't compare ourselves to him, but since when was lifting heavy NOT going to cause alot of hypertrophy compared with lifting light and getting a bit of excessive blood to engorge muscles?

 

[SgtSlaughter]

More work = more muscle growth.

more volume = more work.

I'm aware of that.

5x5 vs. traditional magazine type "hypertrophy" routines is much more volume.

Just curious if you could back up that concrete statment you made. I'm not dead set on any certain training style... I like reading.

From what i've read over the past year being here and educating myself... BBing is a blend of Powerlifting and Isolation.

If someone takes enough juice... they could do cable work all day and grow just from the "stimulation" and pump for sure.

Heavy core lifts combined with a few "isolation" exercises has done wonders for my physique... since the 5x5 ... 7 weeks ago. I'm thicker all around.... and my back does not look like my avatar anymore... i actually have pronouced spinal erectors that don't give me shit anymore and are conditioned well.

I added 2 inches to each leg since squating 3x week on the 5x5... that's muscle gain I'd say

I like this thread. There is NO one answer, IMO. (well from the off topic discussion that we've gotten into)

 

[mikefear]

Yeah, I did 5x5 for a little while -- I didn't like it. Wasn't my style.

 

[mikefear]

mike, perhaps you've never heard his famous quote then - about everyone wanting to be bodybuilders but no one wanting to lift heavy weights...

no we can't compare ourselves to him, but since when was lifting heavy NOT going to cause alot of hypertrophy compared with lifting light and getting a bit of excessive blood to engorge muscles?

Who mentioned anything about lifting light?

 

[mikefear]

I'm gonna bow out of this thread, I can tell its about to turn into an argument with someone and get personal.. these threads always do.

let me finish with this: we all grow doing different things and that's all there is to it

 

[silver_shadow]

Who mentioned anything about lifting light?

more reps -> lighter weights

 

[silver_shadow]

I'm gonna bow out of this thread, I can tell its about to turn into an argument with someone and get personal.. these threads always do.

let me finish with this: we all grow doing different things and that's all there is to it

nothing personal bro, not with me and i'm sure sarge and al are the same

 

[Neo22]

proof?

millions of studies have proven what rep schemes will induce hypertrophy and hit different muscle fiber types. A few large scale sites you can learn from are

acsm
ncsf
ncsa
cooper
nasm

 

[SgtSlaughter]

I'm gonna bow out of this thread, I can tell its about to turn into an argument with someone and get personal.. these threads always do.
let me finish with this: we all grow doing different things and that's all there is to it

I don't think I got personal with my big reply.

I agree... and more importantly we all have DIFFERNET GOALS.

 

[Neo22]

Well I have trained both ways - have you? The 5x5 is about a thousand times more taxing than any BB program I have seen and I have done them all.

you probably haven't done them right yet. When you go for 10-12 reps you don't do it with a weight you can get 10-12 reps with, you do it with a weight you can barely get 6-8. The 5x5 was actually a shit ton easier for me as although I'm going heavier I'm doing so many less reps.

 

[silver_shadow]

and this would also explain why dante stresses on getting stronger and why his trainees are BIG?

 

[Neo22]

and this would also explain why dante stresses on getting stronger and why his trainees are BIG?

who the fuck is dante? What are you talking about?

 

[SgtSlaughter]

and this would also explain why dante stresses on getting stronger and why his trainees are BIG?

DoggCrapp (DC) originator?

 

[silver_shadow]

www.intensemuscle.com d'oh

 

[mikefear]

 

[Tweakle]

Bally PT's are great sources of info for the best rep ranges too

DC usually has people lifting in a higher rep range, but it's with rest-pause to inflict extra damage. Personally, I don't gain as much strength from 12-3-2 as I do from a couple of sets of low reps but I'd think the first sceme would be better for bodybuilding. DC is also not for people who are not already very ,very big and very, very strong.

 

[al420]

you probably haven't done them right yet. When you go for 10-12 reps you don't do it with a weight you can get 10-12 reps with, you do it with a weight you can barely get 6-8. The 5x5 was actually a shit ton easier for me as although I'm going heavier I'm doing so many less reps.

You're probably right - I am small and weak and don't train properly anyway. I am just a figment of my imagination. Thanks for the wake up call.

Can you tell me more about side lateral raises?

 

[al420]

nothing personal bro, not with me and i'm sure sarge and al are the same

I agree - no one is getting personal - except this last tool from the Matrix

 

[Neo22]

You're probably right - I am small and weak and don't train properly anyway. I am just a figment of my imagination. Thanks for the wake up call.

Can you tell me more about side lateral raises?

You call that getting personal? LOL. Every npc and ifbb bodybuilder around here does reps from the 10-12 range. Whats so hard to understand?

EDIT: I JUST SAW YOUR PICS OMG LOL. Have you ever touched a weight in your life? Do you even lift? Looking a little soft to me. Doesn't appear you work out anything let alone your calves. Please your not allowed to discuss your training anymore.

 

[al420]

You call that getting personal? LOL. Every npc and ifbb bodybuilder around here does reps from the 10-12 range. Whats so hard to understand?

EDIT: I JUST SAW YOUR PICS OMG LOL. Have you ever touched a weight in your life? Do you even lift? Looking a little soft to me. Doesn't appear you work out anything let alone your calves. Please your not allowed to discuss your training anymore.

Where are your pics? How much can you squat? At least I post mine up big boy. Show us how huge you are.

 

[Dellyo]

spoken like a true powerlifter..

the pump is just as important as the weight, in some cases more so, when it comes to bodybuilding.

drop sets are a training variant, one that can produce results. But its just one variant.

Thank you macro.....

 

[needtogetaas]

love drop sets do them all the time.them and super sets.