Dave Lowry, koryu, bujutsu etc..

[Red Bull]

Evening all.

I apologise again if this has been tackled on another thread. Just bare with me.

Although muay thai and now boxing is what I'm mostly 'into' (along with Filipino systems when I can - been to RP, hoping to go again in February, the place rocks!) it's kind of funny because one of the biggest impacts in my life is Japan.

At uni, I studied oriental religion and fell in love with Buddhism, specifically Zen Buddhism. I went to Japan and lived there for a while teaching English - although, my ulterior motive really was to study 'Zen'. I came back to Dubai and for the last four years, taught at the Japanese School here.

So yeah, it's kind of funny because I never really got into any of the Japanese martial arts. Same story - respect to all of them but personally, just not for me.

Except one issue/theme really really got me hooked. To cut a long story short, I read Dave Lowry's books and was totally blown away with the whole bujutsu vs budo 'thing'. (btw, I hesitated to use 'versus' but you know what I mean...). I'm not saying Lowry is the sole spokesperson for the bujutsu but he is certainly one of the most articulate I have come across...

Does anyone here study anything which would fall under 'bujutsu' - whether with the sword or empty hand? Anyone with an actual 'old-school' koryu? Again, just to re-emphasize even at the risk of going on and on, bujutsu as opposed to, well jujitsu. Or kenjutsu as opposed to kendo. And, what your experience has meant...

Cheers

As a little aside on how life sucks, i would like to share something with you. At the height of my (academic) fascination with the koryu, I went to a jujitsu class here in Dubai. I had heard about this guy and I knew his lineage was very very impressive. Anyway, so I started going and finally after a month I blurted out everything which I've just posted here. The guy looked at me and just smiled before telling me that what he really taught WAS koryu - Hakko Ryu - WAS 'bujutsu' but that in Dubai, nobody had a clue so he just said jujitsu. A month later, he left Dubai - where he had been for the last 15 years! Just for the record, he was Menkyo Kaiden Shihan and Sandai Kitchu - one of the few non-Japanese in the world to hold this title, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm still getting over this one...

 

[Judo Tom]

im sorry but i dont really know what you mean per say in your post but im wondering at all if it relates to the ju - jitsu 'as opposed' to ju - do

if so i can chime in if not im interested to see what is posted.

 

[Red Bull]

im sorry but i dont really know what you mean per say in your post but im wondering at all if it relates to the ju - jitsu 'as opposed' to ju - do

if so i can chime in if not im interested to see what is posted.

Hey Tom.

I'll try and be brief - and anyway, I'm no authority on the subject.

Basically, and I really don't think that this is an exaggeration, there appears to be a whole world of difference between what is commonly referred to as the budo or 'gendai budo' - or 'modern' martial arts of Japan and the 'bugei' - the actual traditional or classical fighting arts of the samurai koryu. Read the book by Dave Lowry. I'm sure it will not affect you practically but as for sheer knowledge, it will blow you away.

Many people seem to be unaware of this division or difference, even the Japanese themselves. Again, I'm not overexaggerating the difference either which appears to be both conceptual, practical and born out by the historical/literary evidence which is (luckily) available.

The 'bujutsu' or 'bugei' are the actual completely unchanged, totally preserved arts of the samurai. They are intrinsically related to the time in which they were born and developed. As such, they are interwoven in a major way with aspects of samurai culture/etiquette. One of the best examples that Dave Lowry gives is the strikes that are practised in modern kendo. They are different to those practised/taught in a koryu because the armor worn by samurai was different to kendo-ka and, of course, because there was no concept of point scoring. Now i know that last point sounds a bit trite but believe me, this appears to be the whole essence!

Similarily, if i'm not mistaken, the forms or katas of the koryu relate to specific engagements that the samurai would face - and actually relate to the actual physical/social settings that he existed in. This comes down to forms which take into account the low roofs of the traditional Japanese house and other situations - for example, and going into a little more detail, your swords have been placed at your side BUT with the sharp edge facing towards you - as custom would dictate if you were a samurai visiting another person's house. Even worse perhaps, your swords have been placed on your right hand side. What is the point of all this? Simple - the sword in that position is at a disadvantage for you, should you need to use it. Going back to the point, the different drills reflect these actual and highly detailed cultural/social settings.

Which brings me to my last point, I promise! Here's the bit where it sounds like I'm saying ''so the old koryu teachings are more effective than the modern budo''. No, not necessarilly at all. In fact, in some cases they might be even less practical. But again, these are the actual arts as practised by the samurai. And they are literally, (no false sense of panic) dying out as we speak.

The differences seem to be much clearer and more vivid when it come to weapons, to be crude. But definitely, you will find the same kind of fascinating contrasts with say, ju-jitsu and bujitsu. Again (yawn!) I'm imagining that things as concrete and tangible as clothes/fudori would play a role...

Tom, I'm worried that I've done a hash job in explaining this. Do yourself a favor and read Persimmon Wind by Dave Lowry. I promise you you will not be disappointed.

Apologies to any practising/informed bugeisha for my post's inadequacies. It's you that I'm hoping to hear from...

And this is one point I want to make

 

[redbear]

I feel for you. You almost had a chance to study with the master. Although i
have some training in it. a friend of mine who is akido, he talks about sword training as if he were spending time with the finest woman any man could
imagine. A navy seal friend of mine who is also a shihan feels the same way.

 

[Red Bull]

I feel for you. You almost had a chance to study with the master. Although i
have some training in it. a friend of mine who is akido, he talks about sword training as if he were spending time with the finest woman any man could
imagine. A navy seal friend of mine who is also a shihan feels the same way.

heh, thanks pal.

I think i mentioned the word 'actual' and 'point' 50 times in my last post...i was excited!

 

[redbear]

Yawn? Please i was haging on every word especially the culture aspect. Coming into some one`s home etc.I am fuji-ryu ju-jitsu and i am constantly
being an advocate for the the way of the Samuri.Their system in comparison,their is no comparison it`s the SAMURI ! I try to educate as many
people about the different facits of the fighting style and culture (BUSHIDO).
Are you in N.Y.

 

[Red Bull]

Ok. I will try to give one other example (before someone puts a sleeper hold on me!)

This one is almost psychological/emotional in nature, but when you really think about it, it is fascinating.

The whole training and ethos of the bugeisha or koryu student is completely different to the modern kendo-ka in another way. Why? As a samurai, your sole purpose was to defend/protect your Lord. Your life was pretty much expendable.

As a samurai, the only defense was, on many occasions, offence. Also, lets' talk hypothetically about numbers - as long as you were able to cut down say, two attackers, it wouldn't perhaps matter if you were killed in the job...

Again, the point is - it's not just about follow through or 'spirit. The actual techniques themselves and the drills reflect this massive difference in cultural context. The bugeisha doesn't try to slice his foe's wrist like in modern kendo. Sod that! His strike will be a 100% killing blow which yes, may also leave him open to something pretty final - but in the middle of a melee, commitment is commitment and getting the job done is everything!

Bugger. I think I've written dribble again...

 

[Red Bull]

Yawn? Please i was haging on every word especially the culture aspect. Coming into some one`s home etc.I am fuji-ryu ju-jitsu and i am constantly
being an advocate for the the way of the Samuri.Their system in comparison,their is no comparison it`s the SAMURI ! I try to educate as many
people about the different facits of the fighting style and culture (BUSHIDO).
Are you in N.Y.

Sorry bro. Just read your post now.

Glad you are interested. No mate, I'm in Dubai!

I gots to go to bed now but i will see you around.

Laters.

P.S. I got questions for you next time...

 

[redbear]

It`s only dribble to the sports enthuiast. I am a body guard and i bounce as well as a bounty hunter. I live with confrontation the BUSHIDO mind set has not only scared off superior opponents but has gotten me through maylays un- touched. I tell you sounds kind of girlish but i could listen to you speak all day. I am definitly going to read this book. I`ve read Art of war/ Hagakor (spelling) so the culture,mind set the Bushido way of life is my EXISTANCE!

 

[Djimbe]

Red Bull :

Is the Discourse that youre trying to have about the variance between the MAist that strives to preserve his Tradition versus the one that does anything for Maximum Effect ?

Or do you wish to entertain , solely , a discourse about Samurai Culture ?

Im a Chinese Stylist , so I really dont have too much to add to the latter , but I think I have some viewpoints on the Former , definately .