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Why always high EQ doses?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Big_BK
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Big_BK

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This has gotten my attention today since im relaxing and doing some reading. We always see "anything under 600 and you're wasting your time". Why do people always say you need to take at least that much to see results? A low dose around 200-400 HAS to have effects, it's not going to just float around in your system and not do anything unless you take X amount. So having brought this up, has anyone actually taken a lowish dose of EQ or does everyone just go along with the internet advice that everyone reads and takes as gospel and runs nothing lower then 600, etc. I want to hear some real world personal experiences not something you read and pass on as fact.
 
I am not sure exactly why either but I have always been told by people I respect to do at least 600mgs a week so I did. Maybe someone can tell us the scientific reasons for this.
 
Dude I ain't gonna lie I'll do lower doses and have about the same effect it just may take a week or two longer. Personally I'm about burnt out on it. My last couple cycles included eq now I'm going back to good ol deca. i wanna be puffy for once in my life.
 
See this is what i was expecting. Real life results shatterting the online "facts" that get posted over and over because thats all people are used to seeing.
 
Nelson, PP, Ross, etc. can any of you guys add to the discussion?
 
Joe Smith is running:

Dosing 1/2 of each dose listed below 2x week
550 eq / week
500 test e / week

He feels great. He can eat like a pack of wild horses/
His dick pumps his woman multiple times per day
He lifts great weight and is packing on mega muscle.
He feels fucking great 100% of the time.
He is not having any aromatase issues and although he has shit on hand is not running anything.
 
Big_BK said:
This has gotten my attention today since im relaxing and doing some reading. We always see "anything under 600 and you're wasting your time". Why do people always say you need to take at least that much to see results? A low dose around 200-400 HAS to have effects, it's not going to just float around in your system and not do anything unless you take X amount. So having brought this up, has anyone actually taken a lowish dose of EQ or does everyone just go along with the internet advice that everyone reads and takes as gospel and runs nothing lower then 600, etc. I want to hear some real world personal experiences not something you read and pass on as fact.

I had been wondering the same thing after reading these forums.
 
Ive done 400 wk didnt like it, really didnt see anymore results then 500 test was giving, 600 seemed well...800 and at night id have weird breathing and anxiety...ill never use it again other drugs give better results at lower doses
 
Dosages are for the most part weight related and how sensitive you are to the compound! Some people can use less or more gear than someone else all things considered equal.
So a blanket statement of using 600mg is prob not valid but by using a higher dosage you might prevent someone who would not respond well to 400mg wasting their time with that lower dose.
 
You are right varga, as with all meds there is a curve where the maximum effects of the drug are reached and after that any improvements are very minor with dosage increase and side effects become much more prevelent. However, i think there is a trend online recently where higher doses seem to be better when infact 400 will be doing pretty much the same as 600 in most cases with less sides.
 
Big_BK said:
This has gotten my attention today since im relaxing and doing some reading. We always see "anything under 600 and you're wasting your time". Why do people always say you need to take at least that much to see results? A low dose around 200-400 HAS to have effects, it's not going to just float around in your system and not do anything unless you take X amount. So having brought this up, has anyone actually taken a lowish dose of EQ or does everyone just go along with the internet advice that everyone reads and takes as gospel and runs nothing lower then 600, etc. I want to hear some real world personal experiences not something you read and pass on as fact.


I would like to know this also. When i first asked everyone would tell me to run 500mgs of test for ten weeks for a first cycle i didnt do that though i just ran Prop EOD for 6 weeks on a low dose i did 50mgs for the first 4 weeks and bumped it up to 75 eod for the last two weeks. and i gained almost 20lbs then i took a 3 week break and ran 30mgs Dbol ed for 4 weeks along with sustanon 250 for 8 weeks total. Just ran the sust @ 250mgs ew split up into two shots and i grew very well on the low doses. When i started on the Prop i was 172lbs and when i finished with everything i was at 198lbs 10%bf im now around 187-190 but i still look good and feel good and strenght is still there not as much but my next cycle i will think it though better and not have a three week break. If i didnt take that 3 week break the cycle would of been 14 weeks for a first cycle. I think i am going to get bashed for this but you learn from your mistakes and i will better plan next time i did have everything on hand for pct and i still do i am in pct right now using sustain alpha and this other stuff called Restore and some phyto test. My whole point of this post is that you dont need high dose to grow. I know i went all over in this post hopefully not confusing and i dont want to thread hijack since its not about EQ im just saying.
 
I just recently did a 24 weeker of Test Prop EOD @100mg and EQ @ 500mg EW. The results were phenomenal. I am still vascular as hell from it. I put on a clean 14lbs from that last cycle and had absolutely no sides. My mood was actually the most elevated it had been in a long while.
 
You always need higher mg's of anabolics per week as opposed to androgenic mg's.

EQ alone is an anabolic compound with little androgenic properties on it's own.
 
I have ran it at 400mg and 500mg per week....Just because it was dosed at 200mg/ml and 250mg/ml. I enjoyed it and will run it at the same amount again.
 
Big_BK said:
This has gotten my attention today since im relaxing and doing some reading. We always see "anything under 600 and you're wasting your time". Why do people always say you need to take at least that much to see results? A low dose around 200-400 HAS to have effects, it's not going to just float around in your system and not do anything unless you take X amount. So having brought this up, has anyone actually taken a lowish dose of EQ or does everyone just go along with the internet advice that everyone reads and takes as gospel and runs nothing lower then 600, etc. I want to hear some real world personal experiences not something you read and pass on as fact.
Basically it comes down to this. Every steroid profile across the net lists the avg dose of Eq to be 400mg a week. Most people will tell you (and for good reason) that using less then 200mg of test a week is pointless. Less then this that would be less then a hrt dose.

To make Equipoise, a double bond was added between carbon atoms 1 and 2 of the Steran Nucleus of Testosterone. This means Eq is only half as androgenic as test and though most profile will say its just as anabolic (no one will ever make claims they gained as much with eq as they did with a equal amount of test)

So eq is about half that of test. So almost no one would say to use less then 200mg ew of test and like wise not many people or steroid profiles will tell people to use less then 400mg ew of EQ.


Also eq's Undeclynate is a longer ester then decanoate by one carbon. This makes for much slower muscle building over time. A common practice has been to front load (but I don't buy into it).


We should also take into account that many people will who take the jump from 400mg ew to 600mg ew will deff boast about the difference. Its very noticeable. So much so that most people will say its much more worth it to use 600mg ew. But like I said and most steroid profiles will say. Less then 400mg is like taking less then 200mg of test a week and not really worth it.
 
done eq once and at 400mg/wk for 12 and it was great.
 
Everybody is different. First time I used EQ it was at 400 mg per week for 12 weeks. Now I do 600 mg per week and like it much better.
 
If and when I do equipoise again I will bump it to 600mg a week also. I am just finishing up a long one at 400mg and just have a feeling that another 200mg/wk would really bring it into play. Maybe I just want more of a good thing. LOL.
 
i figure that the at 300 mg there is a about 300+ % increase in procollagen III (resp for collagen synthesis) which at that dose makes up for the amount reduced by the the same amount of test over 200mg and give a net increas of about 200%.

thus, the tendons and ligaments strength lags way behind the stress put on them during a cycle---so mg for mg over 200 of test should be matched by the equipoise. and thus somewhat track the increase in muscle strength.

to me, the increase in nitro retention, and therefore protein synth, is just a bonus to the real benefit of equipoise (if you don't get hurt you can lift heavier, longer, and more often)---without the side effects that you would get from deca at the same dose (which has about the same procollagen III synth increase).
 
I used blast and cruise. I'd cruise with 250 mg Test and 250 mg EQ weekly. I think it helped maintain most of my size and strength while giving my liver, kidneys, and blood pressure a break from the heavy Test/Tren/Deca/EQ/Dbol/and Adrol I'd blast with.
 
Big_BK said:
This has gotten my attention today since im relaxing and doing some reading. We always see "anything under 600 and you're wasting your time". Why do people always say you need to take at least that much to see results? A low dose around 200-400 HAS to have effects, it's not going to just float around in your system and not do anything unless you take X amount. So having brought this up, has anyone actually taken a lowish dose of EQ or does everyone just go along with the internet advice that everyone reads and takes as gospel and runs nothing lower then 600, etc. I want to hear some real world personal experiences not something you read and pass on as fact.

Word !

The same goes for duration. I am tired of reading posts that say unless you take it for 12-14 weeks it aint worth anything. Would these people seriously have you believe that from weeks 1-10 it will do nothing and then all of a sudden in weeks 12,13 and 14 it will start working and show results over night.

Yes it is longer acting and running it (or most steroids for longer durations will get better results) but 8-10 weeks is enough to get some fairly descent results - dont forget the eq will not miraculously dissapear in the body at week 8 or 10.
 
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Nobody is saying anything about EQ as a stacking compound. The reason for stacking testo with EQ is to increase the the anabolic effect of the cycle without the added increase in androgenic sides that you would get from an similar increase in e.g. testo amount.

Will those of you saying that anything less than 600 mg EQ EW is a waste, make the same claim when eq is stackt with 500 mg testo? :confused:
 
I have ran it at 200, 300, 600, 800 and 1000mg. The ONLY thing I noticed was anxiety, and the vascularity it brings to veins. The hunger, is the same hunger you get from any other AAS. EQ = waste of money/ time in a cycle.
 
Big_BK said:
You are right varga, as with all meds there is a curve where the maximum effects of the drug are reached and after that any improvements are very minor with dosage increase and side effects become much more prevelent. However, i think there is a trend online recently where higher doses seem to be better when infact 400 will be doing pretty much the same as 600 in most cases with less sides.

I think you right about dosages....Sometimes more is not always better.
Talking from experience though, the more muscle you have passed what the body is genetically predisposed to, the more gear you need.
 
It is right, this is how they generally come up with common doses for medication. Although i think the reasoning behind pro's using high amounts is they have way more more which means way more receptors. You need more of the drug to fill all the receptors. (at least thats what makes sense to me, i could be totally wrong about that)
 
I thought this was a good read.

By Trevor L. Smith
A lot has been said in regards to clearing the receptors and I thought now would be a good time to delve into this subject and simplify things.

Basically, one must view the receptor sites as parking spaces.

Envision a slew of parking spaces that are all empty. Now we are going to call these parking spaces your receptor sites and we shall call steroids the cars. Now I want you to imagine one of those old 1950's style drive up hamburger stands where the girls come up in roller skates and take your order. Typically one would order a burger, fries and a coke--ah the food of the gods--the waitress would take the order, go bring the information to the cook, who would in-turn make the food and the waitress would then bring the food to you and you would then begin eating which is the whole reason you came to the hamburger stand in the first place.

I think everyone can easily understand that. Which means everyone can easily understand all they need to know about the receptor sites because they do the exact same thing. We will keep with this hamburger stand model and explain what happens when you inject steroids

Remember how I said steroids were like the cars and the parking spaces were like the receptor sites? Well it is basically that simple. When you inject testosterone or any one of it's anabolic or androgenic derivatives, you are sending a whole slew of "cars" into your system. Now these "cars" are on a mission--just like you would be if you were hungry and heading to a hamburger stand. They have orders to place with the cells, but before they can place them they must first find a parking space.

Now let's say you have never used steroids before. If this were the case, it would be very much like a hamburger stand that was having a grand opening....lots and lots of empty parking spaces waiting for cars to fill them up and place their orders. The steroids (cars) enter the system and come to a brand new hamburger stand called your cells. Now these cells have never previously been open to the boat-load of anabolics that are now present in the system because they previously only dealt with what your body naturally produced. However, there are lots of extra parking spaces that can be utilized and so the steroids park themselves into these spaces.

Once they are parked a "waitress" called CYCLICl AMP literally crosses the cellular membrane which is totally impenetrably to anything else and takes the order from the steroid. The order is quite simple: Build More Muscle!!

The "waitress" then crosses back through the cellular membrane and brings the order to the "cook" called the Nucleus who begins to fill it by ordering its helpers called Ribosomes to produce muscle protein.. Now different steroids will have slightly different orders in that some may have a bigger order for the cook to fill--such as testosterone. The thing you have to realize is that a lot of times, after the order is placed, the steroid does not necessarily leave the parking space and make it available to other steroids.....it will often sit in the parking space even though it is no longer sending orders to the "waitress" to bring to the "cook", and this is where the problem of "DOWN-REGULATION" comes in. You see even if you send in more and more fresh new "cars" to occupy the receptor spaces, if they are already taken up by old "dead cars" you are shit out of luck.....

This is why you do not continually grow by injecting bigger and bigger doses of steroids. THERE ARE A LIMITED NUMBER OF PARKING SPACES. Now it would not be so bad if all the parking spaces were taken by "cars" that were sending orders to the cook, because that is when you grow. The problem is when there are "cars" that are no longer sending orders and on top of that have dead batteries which is preventing them from exiting the receptors parking space.

This is what the whole point of this article is....TOWING AWAY ALL THE DEAD "CARS" FROM THE RECEPTOR SITES PARKING SPACES AS TO FREE THEM UP FOR NEW, FRESH, HUNGRY "CARS" TO OCCUPY THEM...This will result in new muscle mass!

O.K. Trevor, I am with you so far, but what the f*** can I do about it?

The answer is ...PLENTY!

First and foremost, is to plan sensible courses. This is why I am an advocate of short courses designed in such a fashion as to have all drugs out of the system by the end of the cycle and then allow for a 3-4 week off time in which you are totally clean. If you stay on these monster 4-6 month courses, you just wind up screwing yourself and requiring that much longer of an off period. The longer you are on, the more the body recognizes that there is "too much" in the system and will begin to take counter measures. And the longer you are on, the more "dead cars" you will have sitting in the receptor parking spaces which means NO MORE GROWING!

Now with this in mind, how can we help get the cars out of there?

Well WE actually cannot, but the body can and will. Basically as time goes by, the body will free up the parking spaces just like a tow truck would remove a dead car from a parking space. However, you are at the mercy of time in this situation which is why it is important to utilize short courses that will cause less disturbance in the system, less "dead cars" in the receptor spaces and therefore less time needed for the body to remove them and free up the spaces.

That being said, it should be noted that even short course will pile up "dead cars" after a while and you should give yourself an extended clean out of 2 months at least once a year.

But Trevor, isn't there anything I can do to help speed the process?

Once again the answer is yes!

You can help speed the process up dramatically by increasing your metabolic rate...Speeding up the metabolic rate is akin to hiring extra tow trucks to clear out all those "dead cars" that are occupying the receptor sites!

Have you ever know a person who was much, much fatter than you and yet ate half as much?

These poor bastards think they were given the genetic shaft and try every diet fad imaginable only to stay fat. Their problem no longer lies in their eating habits--which is ironic--; it lies in their metabolism, which basically was shut down due to the excess eating and lack of exercise that got them fat in the first place. Once you understand this, you can easily control your weight for the rest of your life. But what the f*** does this have to due with steroid receptor sites?

EVERYTHING!

The same thing I would prescribe someone whose metabolism has shut down due to obesity, is the same thing I would prescribe someone who's receptor sites are all clogged and is no longer making progress....INCREASE THE METABOLIC RATE!!

Below I will outline a few ways this can be achieved in the constraints of a 4 week Receptor Clearing Cycle follwing the completion of a Muscle Building Course using anabolics:

Diet: I suggest cutting back 300 calories below maintenance per day during a 4 week off time from your anabolic regime...I also suggest eating 6-8 small meals spread out from early morning to late at night. The higher the number of meals you eat, the more your body has to go to work and break down the food which causes the metabolic rate to increase.

Aerobics: Yet another tool in the battle to increase the metabolism, I would suggest low level aerobics 5 times per week 30 minutes per session.

Pharmacology: It is important that one does not have ANY anabolics that are active in the system during this time period.....make sure that you have had a good 4 weeks since your last shot of long acting compound before you embark on this 4 week receptor clearing cycle....otherwise you are wasting your fucking time! That being said, I would suggest the use of the following compounds to help accelerate the Receptor Clearing Process:

1. D.N.P.-- Understand that this is a fucking vicious poison and a component in T.N.T., and I do not suggest it's use at all, but to be fair I must admit that NOTHING can raise the metabolic rate like D.N.P. can. Because this is well known, there are many people that will want to try it...This being the case, D.N.P. should only be used in the following manner during this course: 3 days on, 4 days off at a dose of 4mg per kilogram of bodyweight taken before bed----have plenty of towels around and a fan to keep you cool!

2. Cytomel--T3 is another booster of metabolic rate which is why the fitness models live on this stuff...it keeps you engines running high and burns the fat right off....In this case, we are more concerned with the fact that it increases the metabolic rate. Suggested use is 75mcg -100mcg 5 days on 2 days off for the 4 week course

* If you do not wish to use D.N.P.---which I think is the smarter approach as it is very dangerous.

There you have it...a brief simple lesson on your receptors and how you might go about keeping them free and clear so you can continue to Grow, Grow, Grow and they begin to go to work.
 
needtogetaas said:
You can help speed the process up dramatically by increasing your metabolic rate...Speeding up the metabolic rate is akin to hiring extra tow trucks to clear out all those "dead cars" that are occupying the receptor sites!

what do you guys think on this??????
 
also this was a good read

Androgen Receptors Downregulate - Don't They? Part 1

By Bryan Haycock MS

Please send us your feedback on this article.

There is as much misinformation about steroids as there is good information had among bodybuilding enthusiasts. Go to any gym and you will hear some kid spouting off to his buddies about how steroids do this, or how they do that, or whatever. This soon starts somewhat of a pissing contest (excuse the expression) as to who knows more about steroids. It’s the same kind of titillating and infectious banter that adolescent boys get into about girls and sex. With steroid banter you hear all the popular terms like Deca, Test, GH, gyno, zits, raisins, "h-u-u-u-ge", roid, freak, monster, roid-rage, "I knew this guy once", etc., etc.. If by some rare chance they are smart and have been reading this or some other high quality bodybuilding site on the net, they may actually get a few details right. More often than not they know just enough to be dangerous. Fortunately steroids haven’t proven to be all that dangerous. Not only that, but most of these guys who are infatuated with steroids won’t ever use or even see them except in magazines.

This kind of ego driven gym talk doesn’t really bother me until they begin giving advice to other clueless people who actually have access to them. Spewing out steroid lingo gives other less experienced kids the impression that these kids actually know what they are talking about. That’s how all of the psuedo-science folklore about steroids perpetuates. This is also why most people who actually use steroids know little about them. This last fact should bother anyone who cares about bodybuilding and/or bodybuilders.

I started out with this article planning on giving some textbook style explanation as to why using steroids doesn’t down regulate androgen receptors (AR). Then after considering some of my critics views that I tend to write articles that hardly anyone can read, I decided to write an easy to read, yet informative explanation about what androgens actually do and how this precludes androgen receptor down regulation. I still have a few references but not so many that it looks like a review paper.

Androgen receptors down-regulate….Don’t they?

One misunderstood principle of steroid physiology is the concept of androgen receptors (AR), sometimes called "steroid receptors", and the effects of steroid use on their regulation. It is commonly believed that taking androgens for extended periods of time will lead to what is called AR "down regulation". The premise for this argument is; when using steroids during an extended cycle, you eventually stop growing even though the dose has not decreased. This belief has persisted despite the fact that there is no scientific evidence to date that shows that increased levels of androgens down regulates the androgen receptor in muscle tissue.

The argument for AR down-regulation sounds pretty straightforward on the surface. After all, we know that receptor down-regulation happens with other messenger-mediated systems in the body such as adrenergic receptors. It has been shown that when taking a beta agonist such as Clenbuterol, the number of beta-receptors on target cells begins to decrease. (This is due to a decrease in the half-life of receptor proteins without a decrease in the rate that the cell is making new receptors.) This leads to a decrease in the potency of a given dose. Subsequently, with fewer receptors you get a smaller, or diminished, physiological response. This is a natural way for your body to maintain equilibrium in the face of an unusually high level of beta-agonism.

In reality this example using Clenbuterol is not an appropriate one. Androgen receptors and adrenergic receptors are quite different. Nevertheless, this is the argument for androgen receptor down-regulation and the reasoning behind it. The differences in the regulation of ARs and adrenergic receptors in part show the error in the view that AR down-regulate when you take steroids. Where adrenergic receptor half-life is decreased in most target cells with increased catecholamines, AR receptors half-live’s are actually increased in many tissues in the presence of androgens.1

Let me present a different argument against AR down-regulation in muscle tissue. I feel that once you consider all of the effects of testosterone on muscle cells you come to realize that when you eventually stop growing (or grow more slowly) it is not because there is a reduction in the number of androgen receptors.

Testosterone: A multifaceted anabolic

Consider the question, "How do anabolic steroids produce muscle growth?" If you were to ask the average bodybuilding enthusiast I think you would hear, "steroids increase protein synthesis." This is true, however there is more to it than simple increases in protein synthesis. In fact, the answer to the question of how steroids work must include virtually every mechanism involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy. These mechanisms include:

· Enhanced protein synthesis

· Enhanced growth factor activity (e.g. GH, IGF-1, etc.)

· Enhanced activation of myogenic stem cells (i.e. satellite cells)

· Enhanced myonuclear number (to maintain nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio)

· New myofiber formation

Starting with enhanced growth factor activity, we know that testosterone increases GH and IGF-1 levels. In a study by Fryburg the effects of testosterone and stanozolol were compared for their effects on stimulating GH release.2 Testosterone enanthate (only 3 mg per kg per week) increased GH levels by 22% and IGF-1 levels by 21% whereas oral stanozolol (0.1mg per kg per day) had no effect whatsoever on GH or IGF-1 levels. This study was only 2-3 weeks long, and although stanozolol did not effect GH or IGF-1 levels, it had a similar effect on urinary nitrogen levels.

What does this difference in the effects of testosterone and stanozolol mean? It means that stanozolol may increase protein synthesis by binding to AR receptors in existing myonuclei, however, because it does not increase growth factor levels it is much less effective at activating satellite cells and therefore may not increase satellite cell activity nor myonuclear number directly when compared to testosterone esters. I will explain the importance of increasing myonuclear number in a moment, first lets look at how increases in GH and IGF-1 subsequent to testosterone use effects satellite cells…

In part 2 we will discuss the role of satellite cells and myonuclei and how testosterone (androgens) activates these systems to create muscle growth far beyond what simple activation of the androgen receptor can produce.
 
Androgen Receptors Downregulate - Don't They? Part 2

By Bryan Haycock MS

Please send us your feedback on this article.

In part 1 of this article we discussed the mistake of thinking about androgen receptors (testosterone receptors) in the same way we think of other receptors such as beta-receptors. Beta-receptors down regulate in response to beta-adrenergic stimulation whereas there is good evidence that androgen receptors increase in numbers in response to androgens. We also discussed the various affects of testosterone on muscle growth. Testosterone does far more than simply increase the rate of protein synthesis!

Now in part 2 we will finish our discussion of androgen receptor regulation as it pertains to the way muscle cells grow. The very mechanism of real muscle growth opens the door for increased androgen receptor number in response to testosterone treatment.

Don’t forget Satellite cells!

Satellite cells are myogenic stem cells, or pre-muscle cells, that serve to assist regeneration of adult skeletal muscle. Following proliferation (reproduction) and subsequent differentiation (to become a specific type of cell), satellite cells will fuse with one another or with the adjacent damaged muscle fiber, thereby increasing the number of myonuclei for fiber growth and repair. Proliferation of satellite cells is necessary in order to meet the needs of thousands of muscle cells all potentially requiring additional nuclei. Differentiation is necessary in order for the new nucleus to behave as a nucleus of muscle origin. The number of myonuclei directly determines the capacity of a muscle cell to manufacture proteins, including androgen receptors.

In order to better understand what is physically happening between satellite cells and muscle cells, try to picture 2 oil droplets floating on water. The two droplets represent a muscle cell and a satellite cell. Because the lipid bilayer of cells are hydrophobic just like common oil droplets, when brought into proximity to one another in an aqueous environment, they will come into contact for a moment and then fuse together to form one larger oil droplet. Now whatever was dissolved within one droplet (i.e. nuclei) will then mix with the contents of the other droplet. This is a simplified model of how satellite cells donate nuclei, and thus protein-synthesizing capacity, to existing muscle cells.

Enhanced activation of satellite cells by testosterone requires IGF-1. Those androgens that aromatize are effective at not only increasing IGF-1 levels but also the sensitivity of satellite cells to growth factors.3 This action has no direct effect on protein synthesis, but it does lead to a greater capacity for protein synthesis by increasing fusion of satellite cells to existing fibers. This increases the number of myonuclei and therefore the capacity of the cell to produce proteins. That is why large bodybuilders will benefit significantly more from high levels of androgens compared to a relatively new user.

Testosterone would be much less effective if it were not able to increase myonucleation. There is finite limit placed on the cytoplasmic/nuclear ratio, or the size of a muscle cell in relation to the number of nuclei it contains.4 Whenever a muscle grows in response to training there is a coordinated increase in the number of myonuclei and the increase in fiber cross sectional area (CSA). When satellite cells are prohibited from donating viable nuclei, overloaded muscle will not grow.5,6 Clearly, satellite cell activity is a required step, or prerequisite, in compensatory muscle hypertrophy, for without it, a muscle simply cannot significantly increase total protein content or CSA.

More myonuclei mean more receptors

So it is not only true that testosterone increases protein synthesis by activating genetic expression, it also increases the capacity of the muscle to grow in the future by leading to the accumulation of myonuclei which are required for protein synthesis. There is good reason to believe that testosterone in high enough doses may even encourage new fiber formation. To quote the authors of a recent study on the effects of steroids on muscle cells:

"Intake of anabolic steroids and strength-training induce an increase in muscle size by both hypertrophy and the formation of new muscle fibers. We propose that activation of satellite cells is a key process and is enhanced by the steroid use."7

Simply stated, supraphysiological levels of testosterone give rise to increased numbers of myonuclei and thereby an increase in the number of total androgen receptors per muscle fiber. Keep in mind that I am referring to testosterone and testosterone esters. Not the neutered designer androgens that people take to avoid side effects.

Another group of researchers are quoted as saying:

"…it is intriguing to speculate that the upregulation of AR levels via the administration of pharmacological amounts of androgens might convert some muscles that normally have a minor or no response to muscles with enhanced androgen responsiveness"(8)

This is not an argument to rapidly increase the dosages you use. It takes time for these changes to occur and the benefits of higher testosterone levels will not be immediately realized. It does shed some light however on the proportional differences between natural and androgen assisted bodybuilders physiques.

Maintenance of the kind of muscle mass seen in top-level bodybuilders today requires a given level of androgens in the body. That level will vary from individual to individual depending on their genetics. Nevertheless, if the androgen level drops, or if they were to "cycle off" the absolute level of lean mass will also drop. Likewise, as the level of androgens goes up, so will the level of lean mass that individual will be able to maintain. All of this happens without any evidence of AR down regulation. More accurately it demonstrates a relationship between the amount of androgens in the blood stream and the amount of lean mass that you can maintain. This does not mean that all you need is massive doses to get huge. Recruitment of satellite cells and increased myonucleation requires consistent "effective" training, massive amounts of food, and most importantly, time. Start out with reasonable doses. Then, as you get bigger you can adjust your doses upwards.
 
That caught my attention as well. Does this basically mean T3 helps clear receptor sites?
 
Good info Needto!
Out of all this info I have to agree with keeping a high metabolic rate. I hear advice against it from time to time and I think it's bad not to do cardio on a cycle. If you have to increase you food intake, do it but keep doing the cardio. I'm not sure about T3 in all this matter.....as long as my body works well without it I will never touch it. So I'm not sure how well it works to refresh receptors.

Taking a 4 weeks break in between cycles running only maintence HRT dosage is prob a smart thing. It seems to be more than enough to clear receptors and make gains again.
So, something like 8-10 weeks on 4 weeks off will be good starting point. That's for the year round guys on HRT and not for the ppl doing PCT-though :)
 
Hexagon said:
Nobody is saying anything about EQ as a stacking compound. The reason for stacking testo with EQ is to increase the the anabolic effect of the cycle without the added increase in androgenic sides that you would get from an similar increase in e.g. testo amount.

Will those of you saying that anything less than 600 mg EQ EW is a waste, make the same claim when eq is stackt with 500 mg testo? :confused:


read my post above--the increased anabolic impact (nitrogen retention/protein synthesis) is a good reason to use it, but a crucial reason to use it (or deca or primo) is the positive impact it has on mitigating (because >200mg of test and the collagen output drops) and increasing (in doses that are able to overcome the loss of collagen and actually increase the production) the ability of the tendons and ligaments to keep up with the strength gains from the androgens.

to keep avoid injury, the average 200 lb man should do a minimum of 300 mgs. 300mg w/600 mgs of test yeilds a net loss on pro collagen III the precursor to collagen, and therefore your tendons and ligaments will lag way behind the strenth gains....and elbow/shoulder/knee pain 2/3 of the way through the cycle--it can happen that fast.
 
eddymerckx said:
read my post above--the increased anabolic impact (nitrogen retention/protein synthesis) is a good reason to use it, but a crucial reason to use it (or deca or primo) is the positive impact it has on mitigating (because >200mg of test and the collagen output drops) and increasing (in doses that are able to overcome the loss of collagen and actually increase the production) the ability of the tendons and ligaments to keep up with the strength gains from the androgens.

to keep avoid injury, the average 200 lb man should do a minimum of 300 mgs. 300mg w/600 mgs of test yeilds a net loss on pro collagen III the precursor to collagen, and therefore your tendons and ligaments will lag way behind the strenth gains....and elbow/shoulder/knee pain 2/3 of the way through the cycle--it can happen that fast.

So 50/50 test/eq will keep muscles and tendons happy?
 
artificialaspirations said:
So 50/50 test/eq will keep muscles and tendons happy?


from what i have read, you can keep the equipoise about 20% less than the mgs of test and have much greater pro collagen III production than loss due to the androgens and a good rule of thumb to match the tendons/ligaments strength increase with that of the skeletal muscle
 
AAP said:
You always need higher mg's of anabolics per week as opposed to androgenic mg's.

EQ alone is an anabolic compound with little androgenic properties on it's own.
Would be nice if you came over here more :p big guy.
 
Varga said:
Dosages are for the most part weight related and how sensitive you are to the compound! Some people can use less or more gear than someone else all things considered equal.
So a blanket statement of using 600mg is prob not valid but by using a higher dosage you might prevent someone who would not respond well to 400mg wasting their time with that lower dose.

400mg wk always worked for me as far as getting veins to pop. No sides, just a little greasy skin and whacked out blood results.
 
HAYEZ said:
Ive done 400 wk didnt like it, really didnt see anymore results then 500 test was giving, 600 seemed well...800 and at night id have weird breathing and anxiety...ill never use it again other drugs give better results at lower doses

I had the same issue and whats weird first cycle with eq was at 600 and 250 test while last cycle i ran 400/400 cyp/eq and anxiety/breathing was fucked up..i dont think im running it again I would get dizzy/naseaus from it
 
I start yesterday 600 mg Eq, but i don't know if that is a lot stuff...

what do you think... 400 or 600/w? With 300 Tren E/w + 100 Test P EOD...

I always run Eq 200 or 400, but I wanna try with 600... I hope some difference...
 
tRaNs said:
I start yesterday 600 mg Eq, but i don't know if that is a lot stuff...

what do you think... 400 or 600/w? With 300 Tren E/w + 100 Test P EOD...

I always run Eq 200 or 400, but I wanna try with 600... I hope some difference...

if you are below 8-9% bf you are going to look CRAZY hard and vascular after that! Why not a little more test, i would run the prop at 75mg ed if it was me.
 
I really did not have anything too bad off EQ besides the lipids. Everything else was good as far as I remember, I wonder?
 
Lots of great info here.. Thanks guys!

What about if one was injured and in the middle of a long physiotherapy process? Could EQ ONLY be of any benefit during the rehab/rest/physiotherapy phase (NOT TALKING ABOUT LIFTING ANY WEIGHTS HERE... This is strictly during the healing and physiotherapy phase)

Any thoughts on this?
 
it will work, just keep dosages low like 200mg EW. Now, not sure how effective EQ is at 200mg EW but if you mix it with test maybe at 150mg each total 300mg EW it should be just fine.
 
enacer420nj said:
I had the same issue and whats weird first cycle with eq was at 600 and 250 test while last cycle i ran 400/400 cyp/eq and anxiety/breathing was fucked up..i dont think im running it again I would get dizzy/naseaus from it
ya i would be fine through whole cycle except at night...something was def going on...not sure what it was but i didnt like it...
 
you can get good results from EQ @ 400mg PW but it also depends what else you are running with it & if its UG what the actual strength is. At this dose you can also run it for a longer period, me currently on 24 weeks. Vascular & hard, BP up 20 points.
 
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