WHOA! Be Careful With HCG!!!

[Nelson Montana]

Just got back my latest blood test results.

I did things a little differently this time. I took it after doing my semi-annual course of HCG. It was 6 days after my last shot.

This was a suprise.

Although my balls were nice and full, my T was only 315! That aint great. It's about where it would be if I went off entirely. This puts a big bite in the ass about HCG's ablity to get endogenous T going. And what was more surprising is that my estrogen was 65! That's fucking HIGH bros!

Now last time I was tested my T was high/normal and when I used Chyrsin my e went down from slightly elevated to normal. Then I tried 6OXO and the results were the same. Were they still low from the use of Chrysin? Who knows? At any rate, I assumed 6OXO works as well. But I used a double dose of 6OXO during the course of HCG and obviously it didn't help much.

The problem here is, there are too many factors at play. Was the 6OXO just not effective? Would my e have been higher if I didn't use it. What would my e have been with the use of chrysin? I should have at least used Proviron but I didn't.

One thing this shows is that HCG raises e FAR HIGHER than exogenous testosterone. (At least in HRT dosages).

This had made me re-think the benefit of HCG. I was already of the belief that it was mostly cosmetic and this confirmed that notion further. But the surge in e was a bit of a shocker. I was lean while on it! (A sign of low e). Just goes to show you. There's no much that's unknown.

I'm going to do another blood test soon. But Now I'm spooked to use the 6OXO. If my T is around 900 (normal while on HRT) and my e is around 30 (normal with the daily use of chrysin) I'm going to leave well enough alone for a while.

Moral of the story: HCG may not be the wonder drug it's preported to be. The surge in T and e may give a nice boost in libido, and having big balls is a plus, but the side effects may not be worth it.

 

[thx9000]

What was 65?

Oh must have been estrogen. Great, maybe that's why I want to cry all day. I've been recovering on 20mg nolva ED and 1000iu HCG 3x a week.

 

[Zyglamail]

Care to fill us in on EXACTLY how your "course" of HCG was run?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Care to fill us in on EXACTLY how your "course" of HCG was run?

I'm very careful with HCG. To avoid excessive aromatization I take smaller shots -- this time doing 500IU's twice a day for 3 days, which brought my balls back and had me hornier than hell. After another 2 days I did the same dosage for 2 more days (total of 5000 IU's) but I felt it was overkill. Since the leydig cells get sensitized to HCG quickly I didn't want to push it. Besides, like I said...it "did the job."

I'm glad I didn't do more.

Anyway, I wait until I no longer have acceptable morning wood and then start the HRT again. The effects of HCG seem to last for 2-3 weeks before I need to go on. I hate to think about what my levels were the last week.

I beleve the avena and maca helped with libido and erectile function, which were actually pretty good. This is another thing. I also used xanthparmilia the last couple of days and that'll give a hardon to a dead man. That's all a good sign. But I'll never trust 6OXO again.

 

[anabolicmd]

Care to fill us in on EXACTLY how your "course" of HCG was run?

I think he ran it between the entree and dessert! Wa Wah Wah Waaaaa!!

 

[High-Jacked]

I believe this to be true also, I ran 2 cycles that were almost identical in dosage and time on, except the 2nd time around recovering with the help of HCG at 500 iu's daily for 14 days. With HCG, I felt a noticeable "crash" after stopping the adminstration, and even now the recovery seems to take longer and my nips get puffy even with 15 mg of Nolva ( I already had puberty gyno so I just mean that the fullness come back with high e levels).

Next time I am letting my balls regenerate on their own, hcg seems to take you 1 step forward, then 2 steps back.

 

[alltraps]

what about HCG with nolva, and proviron, proviron being used to total of six weeks post cycle, and clomid for first three of that? its only been a week or so, but so far so good, i feel good, look good, and have good wood

 

[babbabuee]

^

 

[Citruscide]

I think it's been covered alot on here that HCG shouldn't just be used without discretion... thanks for the imput, it always does help.

C-ditty

 

[Nelson Montana]

I'm surprised this didn't get more of a response. I think this is pretty big news.

Maybe if I didn't get a blood test and just said HCG sucks it would have gotten 3000 views.

 

[DJ_UFO]

This is good information...
I trust in that avena, maca and other natty ingredients for PCT...

 

[Nelson Montana]

I think it's been covered alot on here that HCG shouldn't just be used without discretion... thanks for the imput, it always does help.

C-ditty

What was indiscrete?

Also, I'm not sure what that has to do with my T levels not being elevated. But okay. Thanks!

 

[papucho]

^^

 

[zziggzzigg]

I have been suspicious of 6-oxo for a while now but kept it to myself, so it was interesting to read your post.

I haven't done extensive blood testing, just one that showed low normal free test a month or so after a 6-oxo 'recovery' protocal, but I didn't get e-levels tested. I believe this to be my worst recovery by far and am very skeptical of 6-oxo use as a pct. I believe I had more success using no pct in the past.

I guess the moral of the story is one should include estrogen levels in blood testing. Other than LH and FSH would there be any other testable hormones that might be affected by aas that might shed light on the total picture? ie. prolactin, progesterone etc. Unfortunately hrt and aas usage is more complicated than many people realize.

You mention that libido was improved on hcg (attributing that to e and test)... do you mean improved compared to no hrt or improved compared to your 'normal hrt' levels? ... and if so, do you have any theories? ... is LH itself involved in libido, as test levels on hrt should provide enough 'fuel' for aromatization and elevated estrogen levels... or does lh also influence other hormonal factors other than t and e?

I'm also wondering why 200 mg/week of test prop might cause extremely high libido at one stage of ones life, yet not so much at another stage of ones life... obviously test alone is only a small part of the libido picture....

 

[zziggzzigg]

I thought about this some more and remembered the fact that DHT plays a strong role in libido, therefore it could have something to do with the 5ar pathway... perhaps lh has an influence (or the testicles themselves) on the enzyme levels that dictate this? ...also this might be why trenbolone has such negative (even longterm) effects on libido as it can be 5ar reduced and maybe the dh-trenbolone has an unwanted effect on the receptors governing libido in the brain? Anyone with more knowledge on this subject please enlighten us....

 

[Jimsbbc]

What has been the experience with using clomid post cycle compared to HCG? I have always had better results with clomid, although i am a minority on this - from other threads on it.

 

[CLOBRO]

Nelson,
Thanks for posting the info. I just started an HRT program myself and have been debating about HCG. My HRT doctor hasn't offered HCG but will if I want it.. I think I will try HCG and keep and get my blood tested to find out where my hormone levels are at.

 

[Nelson Montana]

zig: I think you're on the right track. Libido is tough to figure, but I think the reason it's higher when on HCG might very well have to do with testicles working "in full force." It can also be the elevation in e, or simply the spike in T. Toooo many variables to say for sure.

Jim: You must be new if you're asking me about Clomid. I think it's safe to say I was the first (staunch) anti-clomid advocate.

Clobro: Judging frommy results, I'd say that the standard Proviron/Chrysin post-cycle proticol should be mandatory while on HCG. I'd also go right into the herbal therepy (Unleahed, etc) instead of waiting . And I'd even throw in a little A-dex but you have to be careful with that stuff. A little goes a long way. (Incidentally, I would never use liquidex, but that's me).

But what is most disturbing is the lack of T elevation. If anything, HCG may supress you further. IT IS NOT A RECOVERY DRUG.

Clo, let us know your numbers after the HCG. I'm curious.

 

[DrJMW]

Nelson, I am looking everywhere for your Nolvadex dosage and I didn't see one. 1,000U of HCG, IM, three times weekly for a total of three weeks with 20mg nolvadex daily, for a total of six weeks is the way to go. HCG alone is not a smart way to recover. If has to be taken with Nolvadex to avoid the problems you discovered.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson, I am looking everywhere for your Nolvadex dosage and I didn't see one. 1,000U of HCG, IM, three times weekly for a total of three weeks with 20mg nolvadex daily, for a total of six weeks is the way to go. HCG alone is not a smart way to recover. If has to be taken with Nolvadex to avoid the problems you discovered.

I gotta disagree with you on this one doc.

First of all, I think 3 weeks is way too long for HCG.

Secondly, Nolva never did a damn thing for my recovery, and had some negitive sides.

Nolva is mainly for preventing gyno but I didn't have any symptoms of gyno.

 

[NorCalBdyBldr]

Hi Nelson,
I have been HRT a long time. One of my physicians had an idea to take me off of testosterone to see if he could accomplish it with Androgel and/or HCG since I don't seem to produce LH or FSH (this was true before I ever did any AAS and is related to a health condition so my situation may be a bit atypical). I told him that I doubted that it would work because I metabolize testosterone too fast for some reason and I didn't think Androgel would get enough in fast enough.

It turns out that Androgel at 10 gm/day only raised my testosterone levels about 60 ng/dl. HCG at 10,000 per week raised my testosterone levels about 100 ng/dl and together, they were only able to get me up to 230 ng/dl of total testosterone and this is after 5 months of trying and misery.

Ultimately, I was put back on injectible testosterone. Later, I had a physician that figured that adding HCG plus injectible testosterone would help level out the peaks and valleys of once per week testosterone injections. While this seemed to help a slight amount, it was finally determined that it is just better to take two shots per week rather than one. This is because for some reason I metabolize testosterone very quickly so the peaks and valleys are more pronounced than in most people.

Based on this, I don't see that HCG does that much to raise testosterone levels all that much from MY experience. It does make your balls swell up nice and firm though. I have largely discountinued using it because I tend to feel that it doesn't do enough to make it worth taking it.

 

[JP@Ironology]

Interesting comments and observations in this thread.

Thanks guys.

 

[thx9000]

I gotta disagree with you on this one doc.

First of all, I think 3 weeks is way too long for HCG.

Secondly, Nolva never did a damn thing for my recovery, and had some negitive sides.

Nolva is mainly for preventing gyno but I didn't have any symptoms of gyno.

What about nolva for LH secretion/production?

 

[Frango]

Dose

Nelson, out of curiosity, what is your HRT dosage and ester?
I have a natural 842 Test (dont know the free test) and am thinking about a low-dose cycle. This info would help me a lot, thanks!

 

[Nelson Montana]

HRT and a low dose cycle is two different things. That's a healthy T level you have. It takes 100 mgs a week for me to get in that range.

 

[Frango]

I understand the difference, Nelson, I only wanted to figure out how much exogenous test it takes to reach a level like ours.

Is it safe to assume that if you doubled the dose, your total levels would be double, and the free just a tad higher, or there is not such a direct correlation?

On a side note, I believe that a "T-freening" agent (like avena or neetles or both) would be very useful on a cycle, and if I recall you were the one who wrote that, right? Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Nelson Montana]

The increase in T isn't exponential to the amount administered but obviously, the more you inject. the more you'll have. And yes, it all comes down to the free T. Herbs can help. That's the premise behind Unleashed from PF.

 

[Frango]

Great Nelson, I want to take the most out of the smallest amount of test. Avena and nettles will be in.

Thank you!

 

[DJ_UFO]

So the problem with 6-OXO is basically raises test but raises est too?
that would be a good feedback to the manufacturers...

 

[Generic MALE]

HCG raises both test and estrogen because it stimulates the testicles in general. It stimulates spermatogenesis and endocrine functions. The testes directly make testo and estrogen. later some of the estrogen can aromatize. anabolics and aromatase inhibitors (arimidex, letrozole tc) raise aromatase levels. SOme AS elevate aromatase more than others - testo raises aromatase levels more than anavar for example.

By taking HCG at the end of a cycle you get direct estrogen and testosterone production, and increased conversion of testo because of elevated aromatase levels.

in my mind I have wondered the benefits of using just nolvadex during a cycle to try and keep aromatase levels down (and improving cholesterol profile) and using aromatase inhibitors only after the cycle for recovery. Also ending a cycle with anabolics that do not stimulate aromatase production as much (more anavar, less testo etc) so as to allow the body to start reducing the levels of aromatase. Its just thinking - no research to back up that it would be more effective.

 

[lostlazy]

Never experience a crash on HCG. 5000 IU/wk for 3 wks postcycle, along with 50mg/prov a day. My post cycle for years.

 

[Ashamed]

I like HCG throughout the cycle, and to prime the balls in the last 2 weeks of a cycle..

 

[Ashamed]

anecdotal, anecdotal
patronising, patronising
bling bling
bling bling
anecdotal, anecdotal
bling bling
yang ying
phone ring

 

[thx9000]

Who the fuck is Nelson Montana?

Who the fuck are you?

 

[Ashamed]

 

[DrJMW]

The purpose of using HCG is to restore testicular mass quickly. The biggest problem with recovery is slow recovery of testicular mass. Clomid and Nolvadex do nothing to quickly stimulate testicular mass. LH recovery is fairly swift, but what good is it if the testes' mass is diminished. So, again: HCG is used to quickly restore testicular mass. Nolvadex is sued as an antiestrogen and as a stimulatior of LH release from the pituitary. Llewellyn et al have demonstrated that Nolvadex seems to be a better LH stimulant and better antiestrogen than Clomid. Nothing stimualtes testicular mass quickly except for HCG.

An analogy: You place a 40-watt bulb into a light socket. You flip the switch and notice the amount of light given off. Now, replace the 40-watt bulb with a 100-watt bulb. Flip the switch and note the amount of light given off. The 40-watt bulb represents your testes after an AAS cycle and the 100-watt bulb represent your testes after using HCG/Nolvadex. Note that we haven't change the amount of electricity flowing through the light.

 

[JP@Ironology]

Bump ~

 

[Ashamed]

The purpose of using HCG is to restore testicular mass quickly. The biggest problem with recovery is slow recovery of testicular mass. Clomid and Nolvadex do nothing to quickly stimulate testicular mass. LH recovery is fairly swift, but what good is it if the testes' mass is diminished. So, again: HCG is used to quickly restore testicular mass. Nolvadex is sued as an antiestrogen and as a stimulatior of LH release from the pituitary. Llewellyn et al have demonstrated that Nolvadex seems to be a better LH stimulant and better antiestrogen than Clomid. Nothing stimualtes testicular mass quickly except for HCG.

An analogy: You place a 40-watt bulb into a light socket. You flip the switch and notice the amount of light given off. Now, replace the 40-watt bulb with a 100-watt bulb. Flip the switch and note the amount of light given off. The 40-watt bulb represents your testes after an AAS cycle and the 100-watt bulb represent your testes after using HCG/Nolvadex. Note that we haven't change the amount of electricity flowing through the light.

Yup.. all sounds good to me... I remember when Llewelyn used to post here.

 

[Nelson Montana]

DR. I agree -- in theory. And would still recommend HCG, especially after long cycles. I ust have doubts as to exactly how effective the whole procress is. If I had to evaluate HCG I'd say it was great for "cosmetics" and MAY help restoration and MAY cushion the crash -- a little. But it's no miracle.

dijufo: I do not believe 6OXO increses T. I had a previous blood test using 6OXO and T was unchanged. The only "evidence" I've seen regarding 6OXO's abilty to increase T comes from the company's promtional advertising, which frankly, I think is a crock of shit.

 

[Ashamed]

i beloive in miricles

 

[zziggzzigg]

I also personally found 6-oxo to be bad for me... not sure what exactly it does in the overall hpta picture, but I found post 6-oxo protocal that I had poor recovery that carried on for months. Testing of effects while on the 6-oxo is one thing, but I think the longer term outlook of 6-oxo is not a good thing. I'll never take it again.

 

[DJ_UFO]

So after all, what would be the best PCT?
I'd like to read opinion from experts here...I stick with the natural stack from Nelson....
thanks.