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KAYNE
Guest
BUMPAROO (FOR THE OTHER RELATED POST)
KAYNE
KAYNE
It's very possible and plausible that the plane was shot down, EXCEPT for the lacking evidence. Someone mentioned 2 debris fields...that would obviously create some curiosity.
But eyewitnesses on the news shortly after the crash stated they watched the plane do a 45-degree nosedive into the ground and practically disinegrate (sp?) with the speed at which it was moving. They didn't report any sight or sound of other planes, especially fighters, in the area, or anything pointing to the plane being damaged (e.g. smoke, fire) before it crashed.
I do believe our news is somewhat censored, but I also don't believe everything they're reporting on the BBC or in Canada. Where do you think their news comes from? Sure they have correspondents here, but you think they're inny more than our own?
Until hard evidence comes out that the plane was actually shot down, I'll stick with the bumrush of the hijackers by passengers. At least we have a wife stating her husband called and said this was going to be attempted.
But eyewitnesses on the news shortly after the crash stated they watched the plane do a 45-degree nosedive into the ground and practically disinegrate (sp?) with the speed at which it was moving. They didn't report any sight or sound of other planes, especially fighters, in the area, or anything pointing to the plane being damaged (e.g. smoke, fire) before it crashed.
I do believe our news is somewhat censored, but I also don't believe everything they're reporting on the BBC or in Canada. Where do you think their news comes from? Sure they have correspondents here, but you think they're inny more than our own?
Until hard evidence comes out that the plane was actually shot down, I'll stick with the bumrush of the hijackers by passengers. At least we have a wife stating her husband called and said this was going to be attempted.
thebabydoc
New member
Both are 100% believable and plausible possibilities.
1) It's hard to believe that no one on any of the other planes thought to rush
the hijackers given they were only carrying knives (even if they were threatening
"bomb in the box")
2) The likelihood that the pilots were IMMEDIATELY killed by the hijackers is 100%. The evidence is showing that the hijackers were trained to fly, and almost all commercial pilots are ex-military. These guys are heros, and time and time again in regular crashes they have done unbelievable, self-sacrificing things to save lives on the ground. Does anyone believe they wouldn't have
a) heard on the squak box that flights and been hijacked and their outcome- (only one
could crash first), and
b) acted immediately and without question sacrificed themselves and the passengers if
they couldn't retake control?
3) The point made by PSB: an ATA missle and the debris fields certainly favor a US response
4) If the US gov't came to you and said.."you need to do this for your country, and you will make your loved one a hero.." who would say no?
5) It doesen't matter.
In either case, an individual or individuals had to make the ultimate decision, to sacrifice hundreds of lives for thousands. Whether it was an F-16 pilot or passengers on a plane, they are heros in either event. Just gives me goosebumps every time I think of it.
1) It's hard to believe that no one on any of the other planes thought to rush
the hijackers given they were only carrying knives (even if they were threatening
"bomb in the box")
2) The likelihood that the pilots were IMMEDIATELY killed by the hijackers is 100%. The evidence is showing that the hijackers were trained to fly, and almost all commercial pilots are ex-military. These guys are heros, and time and time again in regular crashes they have done unbelievable, self-sacrificing things to save lives on the ground. Does anyone believe they wouldn't have
a) heard on the squak box that flights and been hijacked and their outcome- (only one
could crash first), and
b) acted immediately and without question sacrificed themselves and the passengers if
they couldn't retake control?
3) The point made by PSB: an ATA missle and the debris fields certainly favor a US response
4) If the US gov't came to you and said.."you need to do this for your country, and you will make your loved one a hero.." who would say no?
5) It doesen't matter.
In either case, an individual or individuals had to make the ultimate decision, to sacrifice hundreds of lives for thousands. Whether it was an F-16 pilot or passengers on a plane, they are heros in either event. Just gives me goosebumps every time I think of it.
This is true, but then you also have to consider that if the plane had been hit by a missle (either from a fighter or a SAM) eyewitnesses would've both heard the hit and seen a damaged plane flying overhead, not and undamaged one.BigPhysicsBastard said:
Also, a missle would've likely been a direct hit to the plane, and bear in mind that these planes were full of fuel = midair explosion. A large commercial liner with full tanks hit by a missle would have a hard time staying airworthy for 6 miles if it didn't immediately explode.
I'm not saying it's not impossible, but there are flaws in any story.
If it was shot down, I can't imagine being the fighter pilot. He wouldn't have had an option, but damn...
K
KAYNE
Guest
YES, BOTH ARE VERY POSSIBLE. THE GUY ON THE PHONE TOLD HIS RELATIVES THAT THE PILOTS AND SOME OF THE CREW WERE STILL ALIVE ON THE PLANE. THAT WOULD MEAN IF THEY DID BUMRUSH THE SKY-JACKERS THE PILOT COULD HAVE FLEW THE PLANE. EXCEPT IF IT WERE SHOT DOWN.
IF THE PILOTS WERE DEAD AND THE PASSENGERS OVERTOOK THE SKY-JACKERS, THEN IT WOULD CRASH DUE TO NOONE KNOWING HOW TO FLY THAT COMPLICATED MOFO!!!
KAYNE
IF THE PILOTS WERE DEAD AND THE PASSENGERS OVERTOOK THE SKY-JACKERS, THEN IT WOULD CRASH DUE TO NOONE KNOWING HOW TO FLY THAT COMPLICATED MOFO!!!
KAYNE
Dutch windmill
New member
Two options
* Cockpit fight
* Taken down.
We'll just never though, I think both can be possible.
* Cockpit fight
* Taken down.
We'll just never though, I think both can be possible.
FreakMonster
New member
Investigators found the flight data recorder from United Flight 93 in rural western Pennsylvania on Thursday and recovered debris from the crash as far away as 8 miles. The FBI denied a theory that the San Francisco-bound jetliner had been shot down but said nothing had been found to contradict the likelihood that that passengers had tried to overpower hijackers. Relatives who talked to loved ones on the plane believe some passengers took heroic action to ditch the Boeing 757 and keep it from reaching its intended target, possibly the White House or the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C.
FreakMonster
New member
The data recorder may yield clues about those passengers' actions, but investigators were still searching for the jet's voice recorder that could reveal human details of an onboard conflict.
The mystery of Flight 93 took a startling twist early Thursday when the FBI refused to rule out the possibility that the jet had been shot down. But later, special agent Bill Crowley said unequivocally, "There was no military involvement in the plane going down."
The Defense Department has vigorously denied suggestions that the military could have downed the jet to spare a target in the nation's capital.
Local residents said they had seen a second plane in the area, possibly an F-16 fighter, and burning debris falling from the sky. Crowley said investigators had determined that two other planes were nearby but didn't know if either was military.
Crowley said National Transportation Safety Board experts believe "it is probable" debris could have scattered as far as 8 miles. The material was lightweight — paper, nylon webbing and "things that if they were in the air would easily blow," he said. The wind at the time on the ground was blowing about 10 mph.
But debris found that far from the crash site raises other possible scenarios, experts say. If the plane was flying in high-stress maneuvers, perhaps caused by a cockpit struggle, pieces could have come off. A door in the fuselage could have been opened, perhaps by passengers who already knew other planes had hit the World Trade Center towers and wanted to sabotage their own flight to save lives on the ground. Another plane could have fired on the United jet. Or the terrorists' alleged bomb, which they claimed was inside a red box, could have gone off.
Investigators stressed that, this early in the investigation, little has been ruled out. Kevin Darcy, an accident investigation and safety consultant in Seattle, says without more evidence, it's hard to speculate on debris scenarios. But each has its problems, he says.
Parts rarely come loose from airborne jets, even under extreme conditions, Darcy says. The Boeing 757, in particular, is a robust plane and would have had to be going "very, very fast to get parts shedding," he says.
Doors on modern jets are virtually impossible to open once the cabin is pressurized. But if the cabin had lost pressure, perhaps from a hole caused by a bomb, debris could have flown out. A Pittsburgh TV station reported that the charred pages from United's in-flight magazine and what appeared to be financial documents from a New York brokerage house were found at least 6 miles from the crash.
Darcy says if the plane had been shot down "you might expect to see a lot more stuff come down" ahead of the jet's final plunge. But, he says, "I don't see anything yet that would rule that out. The real keys will be to understand the final path of the plane and the winds." Strong winds on the ground could have blown papers and even light wreckage debris, such as insulation, a great distance, Darcy says.
The San Francisco-bound plane left Newark, N.J., about 8 a.m. ET, but before it reached Cleveland abruptly turned back east, lost altitude and flew erratically across Pennsylvania toward Washington.
Based on phone calls during the frantic final minutes of Flight 93, relatives of three male passengers said they think their loved ones fought back and tried to help ditch the plane.
"There was no doubt that he was forming a plan to get the hijackers out of the cockpit and get home that night," Deena Burnett said of her husband, Thomas. "He was not reviewing his life. He was not telling me wonderful things. He's a take-charge kind of guy."
Burnett called his wife four times. The last time, he said: "We're getting ready to do something.
CNN reported that on a partial transcript of talk from the plane recorded by air traffic controllers someone shouted, "Get out of here." Later, amid sounds of scuffling, someone yelled again, "Get out of here."
Then a voice said, "There is a bomb on board. This is the captain speaking. Remain in your seat. There is a bomb on board. Stay quiet. We are meeting their demands. We are returning to the airport." CNN said a source who had heard the tape said the voice spoke in broken English. United had no comment on the transcript.
The passengers who from their calls convinced relatives they were ready to take matters into their own hands were Burnett, 38, of San Ramon, Calif., Jeremy Glick, 31, of West Milford, N.J., and Mark Bingham, 31, of San Francisco.
"Jeremy and the people around them found out about the flights into the World Trade Center and decided that if their fate was to die, they should fight," Glick's uncle, Tom Crowley said.
Bingham's mother, Alice Hoglan, said it would not have been at all out of character for her 6-foot-5, 230-pound son to go after the hijackers. He had run with the bulls in Pamplona, Spain, last summer and wrestled a gun away from a mugger several years ago.
"He doesn't seek out trouble, but he won't run away from it, either," Hoglan said. "If he sees something wrong, he sets it right."
The mystery of Flight 93 took a startling twist early Thursday when the FBI refused to rule out the possibility that the jet had been shot down. But later, special agent Bill Crowley said unequivocally, "There was no military involvement in the plane going down."
The Defense Department has vigorously denied suggestions that the military could have downed the jet to spare a target in the nation's capital.
Local residents said they had seen a second plane in the area, possibly an F-16 fighter, and burning debris falling from the sky. Crowley said investigators had determined that two other planes were nearby but didn't know if either was military.
Crowley said National Transportation Safety Board experts believe "it is probable" debris could have scattered as far as 8 miles. The material was lightweight — paper, nylon webbing and "things that if they were in the air would easily blow," he said. The wind at the time on the ground was blowing about 10 mph.
But debris found that far from the crash site raises other possible scenarios, experts say. If the plane was flying in high-stress maneuvers, perhaps caused by a cockpit struggle, pieces could have come off. A door in the fuselage could have been opened, perhaps by passengers who already knew other planes had hit the World Trade Center towers and wanted to sabotage their own flight to save lives on the ground. Another plane could have fired on the United jet. Or the terrorists' alleged bomb, which they claimed was inside a red box, could have gone off.
Investigators stressed that, this early in the investigation, little has been ruled out. Kevin Darcy, an accident investigation and safety consultant in Seattle, says without more evidence, it's hard to speculate on debris scenarios. But each has its problems, he says.
Parts rarely come loose from airborne jets, even under extreme conditions, Darcy says. The Boeing 757, in particular, is a robust plane and would have had to be going "very, very fast to get parts shedding," he says.
Doors on modern jets are virtually impossible to open once the cabin is pressurized. But if the cabin had lost pressure, perhaps from a hole caused by a bomb, debris could have flown out. A Pittsburgh TV station reported that the charred pages from United's in-flight magazine and what appeared to be financial documents from a New York brokerage house were found at least 6 miles from the crash.
Darcy says if the plane had been shot down "you might expect to see a lot more stuff come down" ahead of the jet's final plunge. But, he says, "I don't see anything yet that would rule that out. The real keys will be to understand the final path of the plane and the winds." Strong winds on the ground could have blown papers and even light wreckage debris, such as insulation, a great distance, Darcy says.
The San Francisco-bound plane left Newark, N.J., about 8 a.m. ET, but before it reached Cleveland abruptly turned back east, lost altitude and flew erratically across Pennsylvania toward Washington.
Based on phone calls during the frantic final minutes of Flight 93, relatives of three male passengers said they think their loved ones fought back and tried to help ditch the plane.
"There was no doubt that he was forming a plan to get the hijackers out of the cockpit and get home that night," Deena Burnett said of her husband, Thomas. "He was not reviewing his life. He was not telling me wonderful things. He's a take-charge kind of guy."
Burnett called his wife four times. The last time, he said: "We're getting ready to do something.
CNN reported that on a partial transcript of talk from the plane recorded by air traffic controllers someone shouted, "Get out of here." Later, amid sounds of scuffling, someone yelled again, "Get out of here."
Then a voice said, "There is a bomb on board. This is the captain speaking. Remain in your seat. There is a bomb on board. Stay quiet. We are meeting their demands. We are returning to the airport." CNN said a source who had heard the tape said the voice spoke in broken English. United had no comment on the transcript.
The passengers who from their calls convinced relatives they were ready to take matters into their own hands were Burnett, 38, of San Ramon, Calif., Jeremy Glick, 31, of West Milford, N.J., and Mark Bingham, 31, of San Francisco.
"Jeremy and the people around them found out about the flights into the World Trade Center and decided that if their fate was to die, they should fight," Glick's uncle, Tom Crowley said.
Bingham's mother, Alice Hoglan, said it would not have been at all out of character for her 6-foot-5, 230-pound son to go after the hijackers. He had run with the bulls in Pamplona, Spain, last summer and wrestled a gun away from a mugger several years ago.
"He doesn't seek out trouble, but he won't run away from it, either," Hoglan said. "If he sees something wrong, he sets it right."
nautica
New member
Damn people. Why the fuck do you care if it was shot down or if the passengers caused a fight and the plane went down. The bottom line is either was done to save peoples lives. It is all a numbers game. 50 people on a plane die OR 5000 people on the ground die plus 50 people on a plane. As hard as the decision would be to shot down one of our on planes. It would be the right decision.
and Frankly I do not want to Fucking know if we shot it down. Our government should not have to release that information and should not be scrutinized for there decision. Because alot of people CAN NOT HANDLE THE TRUTH
and Frankly I do not want to Fucking know if we shot it down. Our government should not have to release that information and should not be scrutinized for there decision. Because alot of people CAN NOT HANDLE THE TRUTH
I disagree.nautica said:
People DO want to know, this thread should make that obvious.
Our government SHOULD have to release that kind of information. I think they're obligated both morally and due to the positions they hold to tell the truth to the American people. We deserve to know, especially at a time like this, what happened. Unfortunately, we're kept in the dark on a lot of things, and they call it a "need to know basis". Many people can't handle the truth? Please man, give me a break. If you, and many other people on these boards, can see the rationality in 50 people vs 1,000 or more, then I think most lucid, educated Americans can as well.
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