when you are reading/watching ww1 or 2 stuff, do you...

[binö]

...ever get bummed when the tides turn against the germans? i do admittingly...if it wasn't for the anti-semitism of the nazi regieme, i think it could have been glorious, changed the face of euroland for the better.
pwned the inept french, taught the smug brits a lessen, civilized the wild slavs.

 

[EnderJE]

Nope.

 

[binö]

Nope.

so do you think that the axis was evil and the allies good?
i just don't think it's that cut 'n dry.
the allies were the jews best buddies after the fact...but history shows that hasn't always been the case

 

[EnderJE]

so do you think that the axis was evil and the allies good?
i just don't think it's that cut 'n dry.
the allies were the jews best buddies after the fact...but history shows that hasn't always been the case

I agree that it isn't ever that cut and dry. And I don't quite blame the Germans fully for WW2 given the raping that they got after WW1 because they had to pay everything (seeing how I think that they were only after the black hand in WW1). But I don't feel sorry or down when they started losing.

 

[binö]

I agree that it isn't ever that cut and dry. And I don't quite blame the Germans fully for WW2 given the raping that they got after WW1 because they had to pay everything (seeing how I think that they were only after the black hand in WW1). But I don't feel sorry or down when they started losing.

what? explain the bolded
are you referring to the serb national group the black hand?

 

[jh1]

Not in the least.

And 3 of 4 of my grandparents immigrated from Germany from 1913-1925.


As far as the French go, you can't teach them a lesson. They roll over to quickly.

 

[binö]

Not in the least.

And 3 of 4 of my grandparents immigrated from Germany from 1913-1925.


As far as the French go, you can't teach them a lesson. They roll over to quickly.

any of their kids have to fight? that would suck, fighting your mother land.
and i bet your grandfolks took some heat stateside for being german
why did they leave?

 

[EnderJE]

what? explain the bolded
are you referring to the serb national group the black hand?

Yep. If I recall my history classes (it's all fuzzy), the Black Hand killed Arch Duke Ferdinand and that this was one of the causes for the war.

 

[binö]

Yep. If I recall my history classes (it's all fuzzy), the Black Hand killed Arch Duke Ferdinand and that this was one of the causes for the war.

yeah but germany was itching to brawl, that was their excuse.
austria was afraid that if the serbs got away with that, the hapsburg empire would crumble.

 

[jh1]

any of their kids have to fight? that would suck, fighting your mother land.
and i bet your grandfolks took some heat stateside for being german
why did they leave?

They had cousins that were forced into the german army that wrote letters periodically to them stateside, there was a point in time where they cut all contact. They didn't want to respond or send any letters to them out of fear of being labeled sympathizers - but no - there was no heat on them that I know of - other than just fear of potential heat.


Not sure why they left, alot of people were leaving germany for the US at the time. They weren't seeking money, they owned some huge fruit farms and came over on a ship - First Class the whole way - moved into a nice house off the bat, etc. Just said that it wasn't a good political landscape in Germany and there was a general feeling of uneasyness about the future there.

 

[binö]

jh i meant did your grandfolks kids have to fight for the usa.

 

[AAP]

I like Germans.

Germans are hot.

I like hot sex with Germans.

However, all those young boys in the war back then would be too old for me now, so it doesn't matter. meh.

 

[jh1]

jh i meant did your grandfolks kids have to fight for the usa.

no...

 

[binö]

I like Germans.

Germans are hot.

I like hot sex with Germans.

However, all those young boys in the war back then would be too old for me now, so it doesn't matter. meh.

AAP this proud german would've forced you into bottomhood

 

[AAP]

AAP this proud german would've forced you into bottomhood

A big yellow box with red letters?

 

[binö]

it worked for me...anyway, fixed

 

[Spartacus]

 

[samoth]

No one listened to Leo Szilard...

 

[Spartacus]

afrika korps

http://aryanwear.com/index.php?osCsid=751ae7c36321cc4805a7200c873425a8

 

[Spartacus]

 

[binö]

No one listened to Leo Szilard...

another example of the stupidity of anti-semiticism
had the environment in austria/berlin been more jew friendly they possibly could've had the bomb first

 

[Spartacus]

 

[Spartacus]

for javaguru's girl

 

[Spartacus]

my favorite

 

[samoth]

another example of the stupidity of anti-semiticism
had the environment in austria/berlin been more jew friendly they possibly could've had the bomb first

Germany was too sloppy. Wouldn't have happened. They had less then 100 scientists working on the nuclear bomb compared to near infinate scientists, manpower, money and resources in the US. We would've developed the bomb before Germany even without big names like Bohr working in Los Alamos. We sabatoged their production plants and ships carrying heavy water far too easily.

 

[Spartacus]

that's one SOB you didn't mess with

 

[Spartacus]

Peiper was a skilled combat leader and took part in a number of major Panzer battles of the war. His men were fiercely loyal to him, regarded by many as a "charismatic leader." Peiper participated in some of the most notable battles of the war to include the two battles for Kharkov and the Kursk offensive of 1943 on the Eastern Front of Russia. Most notably, he commanded the Kampfgruppe Peiper of the LSSAH (assigned to the 6th SS Panzer Armee under Sepp Dietrich ) during Operation Wacht am Rhein ( Battle of the Bulge ). Kampfgruppe Peiper advanced to the town of La Gleize , Belgium , before being turned back by American forces. Peiper was forced to abandon over a hundred vehicles in the town, including six Tiger II tanks, and made his way back to German lines with 800 men on foot.




"Joachim Peiper"





Diese Seite auf Deutch

Joachim Peiper ( 1915 - 1976 ) more often known as "Jochen Peiper" from the common German nickname for Joachim; born in Berlin on January 30 , 1915 , was a senior Waffen-SS officer and commander in the Panzer campaigns of 1939-1945. His father was a WW I veteran, and he had two brothers, Hans-Hasso and Horst. By the end of his military career, Peiper was the youngest regimental colonel in the Waffen-SS, officially known as: SS Standartenführer Joachim Peiper, 1st SS Panzer Division, Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler.

Peiper was recruited into the SS-Verfügungstruppe in 1935 upon his graduation from college. Sepp Dietrich reviewed his application and admitted him into the 1st SS "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler " honour guard regiment, which was re-formed as a Waffen-SS combat unit at the outbreak of war. Initially he served as an Adjutant on Heinrich Himmler's staff before moving onto command various Panzer units within 1st SS "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler". While on Himmler's staff, Peiper met and married his wife, Sigurd, with whom he had three children: Hinrich, Elke, and Silke. Himmler was particularly fond of Jochen Peiper and took a keen interest in Peiper's ascension towards command. At age 29 Peiper was a full colonel of the Waffen-SS, well respected and a holder of one of wartime Germany's highest decorations, the Knight's Cross with Swords personally awarded to him by Adolf Hitler.




Peiper was a skilled combat leader and took part in a number of major Panzer battles of the war. His men were fiercely loyal to him, regarded by many as a "charismatic leader." Peiper participated in some of the most notable battles of the war to include the two battles for Kharkov and the Kursk offensive of 1943 on the Eastern Front of Russia. Most notably, he commanded the Kampfgruppe Peiper of the LSSAH (assigned to the 6th SS Panzer Armee under Sepp Dietrich ) during Operation Wacht am Rhein ( Battle of the Bulge ). Kampfgruppe Peiper advanced to the town of La Gleize , Belgium , before being turned back by American forces. Peiper was forced to abandon over a hundred vehicles in the town, including six Tiger II tanks, and made his way back to German lines with 800 men on foot.

Peiper has been accused of, but never prosecuted for, the Boves Massacre.



On another note, while in Italy, Peiper discovered that the Italian government had captured a group of Jews. Peiper had them released to him, and he then set them free. One of the Jews was a rabbi, who later wrote a testimony to Peiper's kindness during his war crimes trial.

After the end of World War II , Peiper and other members of the Waffen-SS were tried for war crimes in the Malmédy Massacre Trial . Peiper volunteered to take all the blame if the court would set his men free: the court refused. Major Harold D. McCown, Battalion Commander of the 30th Infantry Division 119th Regiment of the US Army testified during the trials that he had conversed half the night with Peiper. McCown had heard of the allegations of Peiper's men shooting American POWs and asked Peiper if his men were safe. Peiper gave his word that McCown's men would not be shot; McCown also testified that he had no knowledge that any POWs were shot. Even so, Peiper was found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging , as were many of his men. Peiper later requested that his men be shot by firing squad and was denied. However, due to issues with the case against them, many confessions had been ludicrously coerced by the use of mock hangings and harsh beatings of the prisoners; the sentences of many of the Malmedy defendants were later commuted to life and then to time served, and Peiper was released on parole from prison at the end of December 1956, after serving 11 1/2 years, much in solitary confinement.

After release Peiper eventually went to live in Traves , Haute-Saône , France , and supported himself as a translator. Following explicit death threats, Peiper was murdered in a fire attack on his house on July 13 , 1976 . The attackers were never prosecuted, but were suspected to be French Communists .

 

[Spartacus]

Peiper is the last official casualty of WWII

fought back against his attackers at age 61

 

[binö]

Germany was too sloppy. Wouldn't have happened. They had less then 100 scientists working on the nuclear bomb compared to near infinate scientists, manpower, money and resources in the US. We would've developed the bomb before Germany even without big names like Bohr working in Los Alamos. We sabatoged their production plants and ships carrying heavy water far too easily.

what about the v2, was that a nuke?
and good pics sparta

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

...ever get bummed when the tides turn against the germans? i do admittingly...if it wasn't for the anti-semitism of the nazi regieme, i think it could have been glorious, changed the face of euroland for the better.
pwned the inept french, taught the smug brits a lessen, civilized the wild slavs.

Sad thing is it required anti-Semitism to be glorious. Jews weren't just innocent bystanders caught in the fray. They played an active part in the reasons for their lock down. It's not like Hitler merely decided, "These Jews....they aren't white.....lets just kill em all." Germans were far too precise and efficient a people to embark on such a reckless endeavor, especially while trying to win a war.

 

[samoth]

what about the v2, was that a nuke?
and good pics sparta

No. I don't even think they messed around with dirty bombs much.

Russia obviously showed their capacity for developing nuclear weapons, but I don't know much about what was happening on their front before the end of WWII. They were preoccupied with Germany and the march on Stolingrad, but I don't know how much they devoted to their nuclear program. They obviously had their spies in Los Alamos like Fuchs, but how close were they?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Spartacus weren't there some foreigners (blacks, Japanese, etc.) who fought for Germany at one point? I've read about this before and someone from another board tried posting unit rosters with pics of them in uniform but the links were dead.

 

[Spartacus]

PEIPER’S RECUE MISSIO

On the 9th January 1943 the LAH returned to Russia to a rather desperate situation. Stalingrad was surrounded and through the gap in the German lines the Russians were aiming at the important Junction City of Kharkov. The 1st Panzer corps (LAH & Reich) held the 8th Guards army who were probing for a weak spot. They found it to the north east of the LAH’s position where the 320th “Green Heart” Infantry Division were holding out in the small town of Stary Oskol which is North of Kharkov. General Postel ordered his division to retreat to the Donetz. They had 1500 wounded and were moving so slowly that they risked being destroyed.

Dietrich ordered Peiper to proceed with his troops and a column of ambulances to save what was left of them, in a fighting retreat. Peiper commanded the IIIrd battalion of Panzer Grenadiers. He met Postel’s men and told them to proceed to a wooden bridge over the Udy River at Krasnya Polyana (which he had just cleared of Russians) while he spread out to provide cover. He waited all the afternoon but no enemy appeared. On returning to the bridge he discovered that the bodies of the wounded had been mutilated and that the survivors were involved in a fierce fight with a Russian snowshoe battalion. Peiper & his men attacked at once firing from the hip as they ran through the snow. The battle raged for several hours until the snowshoe battalion was wiped out. As the bridge was too flimsy for Peiper’s half-tracks he had to turn back into the Russian lines and fight his way though to another bridge. General Postel was not impressed and did not mention Peiper in his report but Dietrich awarded Peiper the Knight’s Cross for his exploit.

 

[Spartacus]

Spartacus weren't there some foreigners (blacks, Japanese, etc.) who fought for Germany at one point? I've read about this before and someone from another board tried posting unit rosters with pics of them in uniform but the links were dead.

some where in the neighborhood of 250,000 from outside greater germany fought for the waffen SS
think about that
almost as many GIs as we had in the western front

nazi germany's war against the USSR was seen as a pan-european crusade against communism

Germany saved western europe from communism
eastern europe,ukraine,baltic states etc. are just now beginning to economically recover from soviet communist domination

the germans killed 12-15 soviet soldiers for each of their KIAs
and still lost
but they gutted the USSR enough

remember we fought a 50 year cold war against the USSR
and lost 50000 in southeast asia fighting communism ourselves

 

[Spartacus]

btw I'm not a Hitler fan or fond of the Nazi's

in my opinion Germany would have remilitarized regardless of Hitler and/or the nazi party

and Germany would have eventaully had to confront Stalin's USSR

 

[Mavafanculo]

Gambini- if you would have a soft spot for nazi's and fascism, that explains alot re your siding with the CURRENT CROP of Republicans.

They employ alot of the same tactics. The Big Lie, Intolerence for dissent, create, demonize and KEEP AROUND an enemy around which to rally the rabble.

Some would say that The World Trade Center was Cheneys Reichstag......

 

[binö]

Gambini- if you would have a soft spot for nazi's and fascism, that explains alot re your siding with the CURRENT CROP of Republicans.

They employ alot of the same tactics. The Big Lie, Intolerence for dissent, create, demonize and KEEP AROUND an enemy around which to rally the rabble.

Some would say that The World Trade Center was Cheneys Reichstag......

awesome the boards biggest fascist posted!@

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Gambini- if you would have a soft spot for nazi's and fascism, that explains alot re your siding with the CURRENT CROP of Republicans.

They employ alot of the same tactics. The Big Lie, Intolerence for dissent, create, demonize and KEEP AROUND an enemy around which to rally the rabble.

Some would say that The World Trade Center was Cheneys Reichstag......

That's a stretch.

Marinus van der Lubbe was born in Holland in 1909. His father left home soon after he was born and he was brought up in extreme poverty.

Lubbe worked as a bricklayer but after an industrial accident in 1925 he spent five months in hospital. He never fully recovered from his injuries and was now unable to work and had to live on a small invalidity pension.

In 1926 Lubbe joined the Dutch Communist Party (KPH) and worked hard trying to recruit young unemployed workers into the party. He also organized demonstrations and spoke at protest meetings.

Lubbe decides he wants to live in the Soviet Union but is unable to raise enough money for his fare. However, in 1933 he moves to Germany where he immediately begins protesting against the new government headed by Adolf Hitler.

On 27th February the Reichstag caught fire. When they police arrived they found Lubbe on the premises. After being tortured by the Gestapo he confessed to starting the Reichstag Fire. However he denies that he was part of a Communist conspiracy. Hermann Goering refuses to believe him and he orders the arrest of several leaders of the German Communist Party (KPD).

As well as Lubbe the German police charged four communists with setting fire to the Reichstag. This included Ernst Torgler, the chairman of the KPD and Georgi Dimitrov of the Soviet Comintern.

Marinus van der Lubbe was found guilty of the Reichstag Fire and was executed on 10th January, 1934. Adolf Hitler was furious the rest of the defendants were acquitted and he decided that in future all treason cases were taken from the Supreme Court and given to a new People's Court where prisoners were judged by members of the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP).

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERlubbe.htm

Though of course this was all dismissed as phony Nazi propaganda.

You know, after the war the Soviets had as much freedom as they wanted to talk shit about Germany all the while keeping their own dirt swept under the rug.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

some where in the neighborhood of 250,000 from outside greater germany fought for the waffen SS
think about that
almost as many GIs as we had in the western front

nazi germany's war against the USSR was seen as a pan-european crusade against communism

Germany saved western europe from communism
eastern europe,ukraine,baltic states etc. are just now beginning to economically recover from soviet communist domination

the germans killed 12-15 soviet soldiers for each of their KIAs
and still lost
but they gutted the USSR enough

remember we fought a 50 year cold war against the USSR
and lost 50000 in southeast asia fighting communism ourselves

The wikipedia link for Operation Barbarossa has the German casualties outnumbering the Soviets' for some reason. Probably a convenient oversight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_barbarossa

I know there were far more Soviets. You wouldn't nearly reach Stalingrad by suffering more casualties than the enemy.

 

[Spartacus]

awesome the boards biggest fascist posted!@

both the dems and the republicans employ fascist tactics
I long for a viable libertarian party

I'm moderate-conservative with plenty of liberal opinions

 

[binö]

both the dems and the republicans employ fascist tactics
I long for a viable libertarian party

I'm moderate-conservative with plenty of liberal opinions

oh yeah i totally agree.
though mava doesn't, he's open minded as long as you agree with him and his policies.
fiscally conservative, socially liberal is how i roll

 

[Spartacus]

The wikipedia link for Operation Barbarossa has the German casualties outnumbering the Soviets' for some reason. Probably a convenient oversight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_barbarossa

I know there were far more Soviets. You wouldn't nearly reach Stalingrad by suffering more casualties than the enemy.

you realize wikopedia is written/composed by contributions form the public?

I have this bookright now in my lap in fact)

Soviet Casualties
and Combat Losses
(WWII)
by Colonel General Krivosheev



Peter Tsouras, who has special knowledge of the subject area from his work with a Washington agency, writes:

"With the publication of Colonel General Krivosheev's Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century, the frightful tally and stupendous scale of Soviet arms has been revealed down to the last detail. Only the fall of Soviet power could break the Party's lock on this motherlode of history. I remember in July 1992 the deputy commander of the Russian Military History Institute holding aloft the flyer for a Greenhill book on the Eastern Front and exclaiming with brutal candor that the Russians had had to rely on Western sources for much of their own military history, so much of which had been suppressed by the Party. And nothing more seemed to frighten the Party more than the numbing truth of numbers.

For the Western reader, the eyes grow wide with each table and the mind stays alert and on edge as the human dimension of those numbers sinks in. For example, the Soviets lost more platoon commanders than total dead for either the British Empire or the United States.

As might be expected, the great mass of the information in the book addresses the Great Patriotic War. Every major operation is covered in great detail: which fronts participated, consisting of how many divisions and brigades, by type, their numerical strength, irrecoverable losses, sick and wounded, and average daily losses.

Readable Jumbo Size Table (extremely slow: 306K)

Other tables address medical statistics: Soviet military doctors treated 14,324,0781 wounded of whom 773,500 suffered head wounds, etc. There are sections on military production which address each type of weapon from revolvers to tanks, giving production, stock, and losses for each year of the war.

For example, in 1944, the Red Army lost 52.7 percent or 13,800 of the medium tanks which included the number available at the beginning of the year and those received from production. There are even tables breaking down the surviving 1,368,849 (of 4,059,000) Soviet POWs by rank into the years captured and nationality. Incredibly, among them were 4,457 Jews

In this book is also information which in the past has been even scarcer than for the titanic struggle on the Eastern Front. If you want to know how many troops the Soviets employed and lost in every operation such as the invasion of Czechoslovakia, Khalkin Gol, and the Spanish Civil War, you will find it here.

The examples I mention are only skimming the surface of this historical goldmine, for nothing else can truly describe Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century. The book is a model of scholarship much adorned by a thorough and precise text. This book is a must for anyone interested in the Eastern Front and warfare in general. It is a classic."

Books by Peter Tsouras include:

Fighting in Hell: The German Ordeal on the Eastern Front
Anvil of War: German Generalship in Defense on the Eastern Front
The Great Patriotic War. An Illustrated History of Total War: The Soviet Union and Gcrmany 1941-1945

 

[Spartacus]

Khalkin Gol
there's a blast from the past

Did a nearly forgotten battle right before World War 2 decide its outcome?
The place was along the Mongolian/Siberian border near a river called Khalkhin Gol or Nomonhan. The two giants of Asia, Russia and Japan were eyeing each other suspiciously for years, and a clash was inevitable. Japan had defeated the Russians in 1904-1905, and was certain they could do so again.

Russia had 45 divisions in Siberia to discourage the Japanese, and a maverick general named Georgy Zhukov. Then unknown, Zhukov would make his mark at Kholkin Gol and do greater things for Russia in the near future.

In the number of tanks, Zhukov had a decisive advantage. While the Japs tended to spread their armor among the infantry in WW 1 fashion, the Russian held back a tank brigade in reserve.

There were manpower differences as well, with the Japanese deploying 40,000 men in 2 divisions. Zhukov could call on 6 brigades with a combined strength of 70,000 personnel. Only in aircraft were they more evenly matched.

Nevertheless, the Japanese arrogantly invaded Siberia in May 1939, toward the Kholkin River. Initially successful, the attack soon bogged down and then stopped altogether. In July, the Japs sent even larger forces, but Zhukov stopped the invaders in their tracks.

In August the Russians counterattack, starting with an old fashioned slugfest, the two mighty forces locked together. Meanwhile, the armor Zhukov was holding in reserve began to circle the battlefield, to catch the enemy in the rear. It was the first major armored offensive of the modern age.

The Japs were in a trap, and for days would try to break out. In all 18,000 troops would perish under the Russian guns, and the invaders retreated back across the original border.

In spite of the losses, the Japanese commander prepared a counterattack with 3 new divisions. However, a truce was signed on September 10. War clouds were looming in the west, and the Russians were more interested in events in Europe.

Kholkin Gol would see the debut of the finest Russian general of WW 2, but the battle had far reaching effects. When Hitler invaded Russia in 1941, Stalin used the 45 Siberian divisions for his counterattack. The Japs had no interest in tangling with the Soviets again, and instead, turned toward the east and America, where they would face greater defeat.

Suggested Reading:
Dirty Little Secrets of WW 2
by Dunningan and Nofi
Marshal Zhukov's Greatest Battles
by Georgi K. Zhukov

 

[javaguru]

The wikipedia link for Operation Barbarossa has the German casualties outnumbering the Soviets' for some reason. Probably a convenient oversight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_barbarossa

I know there were far more Soviets. You wouldn't nearly reach Stalingrad by suffering more casualties than the enemy.

This what I got from the Wiki article.....

German Casualties:
700,000 total (including 200,000 dead) by end of 1941[2]
Soviet Casualties(German Estimate):
1,750,000 killed in combat operations by end of 1941
[3]

Wegner, Bernd (1997). From Peace to War: Germany, Soviet Russia, and the World, 1939-1941. Berghahn Books, pp.432. ISBN 1571818820.

Soviet Casualties(own):
802,191 killed .
2,335,482 missing/captured.[4]

Krivosheev, G.F., ed., Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century, Greenhill Books, London, UK, 1997, p.96, a well-known and generally accepted treatise on the topic; a website, http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/ww2/barbarossa.htm gives different figures.

 

[Spartacus]

This what I got from the Wiki article.....

German Casualties:
700,000 total (including 200,000 dead) by end of 1941[2]
Soviet Casualties(German Estimate):
1,750,000 killed in combat operations by end of 1941
[3]

Wegner, Bernd (1997). From Peace to War: Germany, Soviet Russia, and the World, 1939-1941. Berghahn Books, pp.432. ISBN 1571818820.

Soviet Casualties(own):
802,191 killed .
2,335,482 missing/captured.[4]

Krivosheev, G.F., ed., Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century, Greenhill Books, London, UK, 1997, p.96, a well-known and generally accepted treatise on the topic; a website, http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/ww2/barbarossa.htm gives different figures.

that's the book I have

excerpt from above:

"For example, the Soviets lost more platoon commanders than total dead for either the British Empire or the United States."

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

you realize wikopedia is written/composed by contributions form the public?

Yes, unfortunately. That Krivosheev book sounds interesting.

This what I got from the Wiki article.....

German Casualties:
700,000 total (including 200,000 dead) by end of 1941[2]
Soviet Casualties(German Estimate):
1,750,000 killed in combat operations by end of 1941
[3]

Wegner, Bernd (1997). From Peace to War: Germany, Soviet Russia, and the World, 1939-1941. Berghahn Books, pp.432. ISBN 1571818820.

Soviet Casualties(own):
802,191 killed .
2,335,482 missing/captured.[4]

Krivosheev, G.F., ed., Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century, Greenhill Books, London, UK, 1997, p.96, a well-known and generally accepted treatise on the topic; a website, http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/ww2/barbarossa.htm gives different figures.

I was looking at the box on the right but it's obviously a generalization.

Casualties
German:
1,364,903 (700,000 dead, 36,000 missing, 604,000 wounded)

Soviets:
802,191 killed.
2,335,482 missing/captured

 

[javaguru]

Yes, unfortunately. That Krivosheev book sounds interesting.




I was looking at the box on the right but it's obviously a generalization.

Casualties
German:
1,364,903 (700,000 dead, 36,000 missing, 604,000 wounded)

Soviets:
802,191 killed.
2,335,482 missing/captured

I didn't see those numbers in the casualty list for the wiki you posted; I saw 700,000 total by the end of 1941 with 200k dead.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I didn't see those numbers in the casualty list for the wiki you posted; I saw 700,000 total by the end of 1941 with 200k dead.

lol, it's in the box to the right of the paragraphs, where it lists the two sides, commanders, strength, casualties, etc. In any case the book you and Spartacus have would surely be a more definitive source by far.

 

[AAP]

AAP this proud german would've forced you into bottomhood

WTF?? He looks like Grizzly Adams gone bad.

No way.

 

[AAP]

that's one SOB you didn't mess with

A bellhop?

 

[Mavafanculo]

That's a stretch.
......

is it?

Most historians believe thaht the reichstag fire was deliberately set to anger the rabble and rally them vs the commies. A "Galvanizing Event". Worked like a charm.

I'm sure you're familiar with the PNAC manifestos with Cheney (and jeb bush and rumsfeld and rice i believe) as a co-signator talking about the need for a "Galvanizing Event" in order to enact the restrictions on civil liberties and perpetrate the foriegn policy initiatives they wanted (starting with attacking iraq and removing hussain).

well they got the galvanizing event 0n 9/11/01. certain agents actively involved? merely allowed to happen? only coincidence? History may uncover the truth maybe not.

one thing for sure, they took every advantage of the event to get everything they spoke of in their Manifesto 10 years prior.

 

[binö]

is it?

Most historians believe thaht the reichstag fire was deliberately set to anger the rabble and rally them vs the commies. A "Galvanizing Event". Worked like a charm.

I'm sure you're familiar with the PNAC manifestos with Cheney (and jeb bush and rumsfeld and rice i believe) as a co-signator talking about the need for a "Galvanizing Event" in order to enact the restrictions on civil liberties and perpetrate the foriegn policy initiatives they wanted (starting with attacking iraq and removing hussain).

well they got the galvanizing event 0n 9/11/01. certain agents actively involved? merely allowed to happen? only coincidence? History may uncover the truth maybe not.

one thing for sure, they took every advantage of the event to get everything they spoke of in their Manifesto 10 years prior.

mava inches closer and closer to being a full bore kooky 9/11 conspiracist.
i never honestly thought it would come to that, shameful

 

[Mavafanculo]

mava inches closer and closer to being a full bore kooky 9/11 conspiracist.
i never honestly thought it would come to that, shameful

Based on the evidence as it now stands, and all the open unanswered questions, anyone who is convinced that agents of the US government or Israel or PNAC nuts etc etc had a hand in 9/11 is a fool.

The only bigger fools are those who are convinced that such a thing could not possibly be.

 

[binö]

The only bigger fools are those who are convinced that such a thing could not possibly be.

yeah, i must be a fool for not believing that geo bush attacked the trade center.
seriously that is such a farce...lemme guess, did bill clinton bomb the wtc in 1993?
did bush sabotage the levee's in NO?
did cheney start the fires in SD?

 

[Mavafanculo]

p.s. so far in this thread, you tossed a few dismissive quasi-insults, but didnt even try to dispute the substance of what I said.

 

[binö]

p.s. so far in this thread, you tossed a few dismissive quasi-insults, but didnt even try to dispute the substance of what I said.

still waiting for you to make a quasi-intelligent post.
please don't school me

 

[Mavafanculo]

yeah, i must be a fool for not believing that geo bush attacked the trade center.
seriously that is such a farce...lemme guess, did bill clinton bomb the wtc in 1993?
did bush sabotage the levee's in NO?
did cheney start the fires in SD?

think bigger. broaden the scope of posssibilities. things arent so black and white as you'd like them.


"Tattaglia's a pimp. it was Barzini all along."

 

[Spartacus]

A bellhop?

 

[AAP]

Hell, I don't know who that is. I can't see his name tag.

Don't post random shit without a name. Damn.

Post some interesting shit. Like that instance called 12 Days of December or some shit. Where the nazi officer was sent on basically a suicide mission to return behind with a very very small amount of soldiers and gather the wounded after some horrific battle that he barely managed to escape in the first place. He was to gather the survivors and return with them at some location a lonnnggg way from safety. Basically they were using him and the troops in an effort to slow down the soldiers nipping at their heels by figuring if he went back and engaged in some small skirmishes, it would delay the others a bit and allow the rest of the army to reach safety. Instead the dude went back, gathered the wounded, and then took a completely different route through enemy territory all the way to the rendevous site without losing a single man. (except a couple that died from wounds). some of the tactics that he used were amazing. Like hiring russian children from one village to take their clothes off, roll in the mud and run ahead through the next village yelling how the Nazis were coming and killing everything in their path and the previous village was all murdered. By the time the troops got there, they would mostly find the villages abandoned.

I can't remember that the name of that book was, but I saw it at Borders. It had a gray/black cover with the title words written in white.

 

[Mavafanculo]

who is that?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

is it?

Most historians believe thaht the reichstag fire was deliberately set to anger the rabble and rally them vs the commies. A "Galvanizing Event". Worked like a charm.

I'm sure you're familiar with the PNAC manifestos with Cheney (and jeb bush and rumsfeld and rice i believe) as a co-signator talking about the need for a "Galvanizing Event" in order to enact the restrictions on civil liberties and perpetrate the foriegn policy initiatives they wanted (starting with attacking iraq and removing hussain).

well they got the galvanizing event 0n 9/11/01. certain agents actively involved? merely allowed to happen? only coincidence? History may uncover the truth maybe not.

one thing for sure, they took every advantage of the event to get everything they spoke of in their Manifesto 10 years prior.

If the Third Reich-era Germans had their own conspiracy theories, that would've probably been one of them. And by stretch I meant primarily that the Nazis wouldn't have burned down one of their buildings to "set their plans in motion" or rouse the people. The people were already fed up with Germany's then-current condition and the Nazis were going to fix it regardless.

 

[Spartacus]

Hell, I don't know who that is. I can't see his name tag.

Don't post random shit without a name. Damn.

Post some interesting shit. Like that instance called 12 Days of December or some shit. Where the nazi officer was sent on basically a suicide mission to return behind with a very very small amount of soldiers and gather the wounded after some horrific battle that he barely managed to escape in the first place. He was to gather the survivors and return with them at some location a lonnnggg way from safety. Basically they were using him and the troops in an effort to slow down the soldiers nipping at their heels by figuring if he went back and engaged in some small skirmishes, it would delay the others a bit and allow the rest of the army to reach safety. Instead the dude went back, gathered the wounded, and then took a completely different route through enemy territory all the way to the rendevous site without losing a single man. (except a couple that died from wounds). some of the tactics that he used were amazing. Like hiring russian children from one village to take their clothes off, roll in the mud and run ahead through the next village yelling how the Nazis were coming and killing everything in their path and the previous village was all murdered. By the time the troops got there, they would mostly find the villages abandoned.

I can't remember that the name of that book was, but I saw it at Borders. It had a gray/black cover with the title words written in white.

peiper did somethign similar,but on a larger scale
a german division had been mauled down to 1500 or so (from 20000)
the survivors included many wounded(duh) etc. and the division was trapped behind russian lines

the germans sent peiper's regiment to the rescue
I think I already posted the story in this thread