Training/AAS Question

[WannaBeBig72]

Started my dbol/test/eq cycle on Monday.
dbol 30mgs a day
test 500mgs week
eq 400mgs week

I started doing the following workout routine for the last month and it was working well (basically the idea is to hit every body part 3 times every 2 weeks).

monday: chest/triceps
tuesday: back/biceps
wednesday: shoulders/traps
thursday: legs
friday chest/triceps
saturday: back/biceps
sundayff

monday: shoulders/traps
tuesday: legs
wednesday: chest/triceps
thursday: back biceps
friday: legs
saturday: shoulders/traps

repeat

Well this being Friday I went back to do chest and was too sore to do them (I did them on Friday). I thought that AAS helped recovery time. My whole body seems to be more sore then usual and I really haven't been working out with greater intensity. So today I cut my workout short. I started feeling it after like my 3rd set. Should I of pushed my way through it going light or something? Is this normal to still be this sore after 5 days? Should I go back to a one body part a week routine?

 

[CRsteve]

Are you on a cycle after taking a lot of time out of the gym or what? You may just need to get used to lifting again if that's the case.

 

[slat1]

I have a similar workout. I actually do one bar day a week and one dumbell day a week for chest. I love it. Try it out.
Make sure you have a legit PW shake too!

 

[sweed]

6 days on... oh man i couldnt do that. i like my 2 on 1 off 3 on 1 off routine. AS far as muscle soreness.. I haven't been sore at all during my cycle... if any very very miron soreness. I love it. My buddy thinks i am a pussy that I dont get sore now.. but he doesn;t know that im ON!

 

[Stacemranger]

Started my dbol/test/eq cycle on Monday.
dbol 30mgs a day
test 500mgs week
eq 400mgs week

I started doing the following workout routine for the last month and it was working well (basically the idea is to hit every body part 3 times every 2 weeks).

monday: chest/triceps
tuesday: back/biceps
wednesday: shoulders/traps
thursday: legs
friday chest/triceps
saturday: back/biceps
sundayff

monday: shoulders/traps
tuesday: legs
wednesday: chest/triceps
thursday: back biceps
friday: legs
saturday: shoulders/traps

repeat

Well this being Friday I went back to do chest and was too sore to do them (I did them on Friday). I thought that AAS helped recovery time. My whole body seems to be more sore then usual and I really haven't been working out with greater intensity. So today I cut my workout short. I started feeling it after like my 3rd set. Should I of pushed my way through it going light or something? Is this normal to still be this sore after 5 days? Should I go back to a one body part a week routine?

Sounds like you haven't lifted in quite a while. Don't tell me you started a cycle without even having been lifting for a while?

 

[Madcow2]

It really depends on what it is you are doing. Just listing a split is fairly useless. If you are squatting 2x per week for 2 sets of 5 with 50% of your max, it's a non-issue. If you are doing 8 sets of triples with 90% twice a week that's a whole different game but a split listing would never reveal this and to a degree it depends on your individual tolerance for volume which is then enhanced by AAS (i.e. your AAS enhanced volume tolerance might be magnitudes lower than an experienced elite natural lifter who is well conditioned). So basically without a history and with only split information it's a difficult call.

Approaching from the other side of the equation (symptoms - being abnormally sore for prolonged periods from a program you should already be accustemed to - are there others? Like tiredness, loss of strength, ability to focus): First, good programs manage volume and intensity over time with periods of loading and deloading (I know this is a foreign language to most BBers but this is the way athletes are trained all over the world and is basic training 101 information called dual factor theory). Instead of viewing the stimulus as a single workout, instead view it as a period of time (4 weeks) in which a block of heavy training is undertaken - this is called loading. It sounds to me like you are a bit past the point of your tolerance and in need of a lighter week or 2 before hitting it hard again (i.e. deloading). Cut your volume and frequency but keep intensity (i.e. % of your 1RM or the weight you are using in the compound lifts) high. Do this for 1-2 weeks and you'll be raring to go again. With intensity high, you will recover from all the volume and watch as muscle and strength gains accrue from the previous training block.

Anyway - for some info and helpful links:

This is the table of contents to a master training thread I've created using a basic dual factor program but there is an absolute shitload of info in here anywhere from interviews to laying out training cycles to alternative programs etc..A few headings down you will find "Dual Factor Theory - Why This Works" read those explanations and anything else that tickles your fancy as I've tried to link all the best stuff in that 19 page thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4755945&postcount=362

This is the main thread but it's easier to navigate with the table of contents as it's just too damn long now: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215

EDIT - I'll also just throw you the bone that during PCT you want to be in a similar high intenisty (this does not mean training to failure, it is an objective measurement of the weight used in relation to your 1 rep max), lower volume and frequency. Doing this for a period will allow you to better maintain your gains while not overly ripping yourself down. It's covered in more detail in the table of contents "For the Drug Users - The Training Cycle and Anabolics".

 

[WannaBeBig72]

No I've been doing this routine for about a month before hand and have been lifting seriouslly (where my diet and training have been real good) for the last year. Who knows...You're recovery time on DBol is supposed to be good?

 

[sweed]

No I've been doing this routine for about a month before hand and have been lifting seriouslly (where my diet and training have been real good) for the last year. Who knows...You're recovery time on DBol is supposed to be good?

gotta love madcow... anyways.. recovery time on dbol/test is sick.. i have no soreless, at most maybe a little bit the day after, but gone the next day. its awesome. I have had great recovery after Day 1

 

[WannaBeBig72]

gotta love madcow... anyways.. recovery time on dbol/test is sick.. i have no soreless, at most maybe a little bit the day after, but gone the next day. its awesome. I have had great recovery after Day 1

Maybe I'm mistaking soreness from my muscles getting unbelievably pumped everytime I move them...

 

[Madcow2]

Well dbol is known for the pumps so that's something different altogether and that's a pretty big space between the two. You need to evaluate your symptoms and guage whether you need a breather or not. If your symptoms are pumps and you are still making solid strength gains - you aren't over-extended. Recovery and tolerance is enhanced with AAS but it isn't unlimited or massively so in most cases. Like I said before, just listing a training split without more detail makes this impossible to evaluate for anyone besides yourself except on a symptom level.

 

[WannaBeBig72]

Well dbol is known for the pumps so that's something different altogether and that's a pretty big space between the two. You need to evaluate your symptoms and guage whether you need a breather or not. If your symptoms are pumps and you are still making solid strength gains - you aren't over-extended. Recovery and tolerance is enhanced with AAS but it isn't unlimited or massively so in most cases. Like I said before, just listing a training split without more detail makes this impossible to evaluate for anyone besides yourself except on a symptom level.

I do between 12 and 15 sets for chest (13), back (12) and shoulders (15).
And 8 sets for biceps and triceps. 4 sets for forearms and traps. I pretty much train to failure on all sets. Below is my chest/tricep workout.

My chest/tricep workout
flat bench - 5sets - 12, 8, 4, 6, 8
incline dumbells 4sets - 6-8 all sets
dips or decline machine 4set - 6-8 all sets

triceps
barbell extensions - 4sets - 12, 8, 6, 8
pushdowns - 4sets - 6-8 all sets

 

[Madcow2]

I do between 12 and 15 sets for chest (13), back (12) and shoulders (15).
And 8 sets for biceps and triceps. 4 sets for forearms and traps. I pretty much train to failure on all sets. Below is my chest/tricep workout.

My chest/tricep workout
flat bench - 5sets - 12, 8, 4, 6, 8
incline dumbells 4sets - 6-8 all sets
dips or decline machine 4set - 6-8 all sets

triceps
barbell extensions - 4sets - 12, 8, 6, 8
pushdowns - 4sets - 6-8 all sets

So when I theorize that it might be stepping into overtraining, it's important to understand that overtraining is not on a per muscle basis but a systemic basis - meaning your entire system and CNS. Chest and arm exercises aren't nearly as taxing as squats and deads so this doesn't really reveal much. I won't even touch on training to failure except that it is a great way to burn out your CNS and regardless of what HIT pundits will tell you the underlying idea that failure is required to elicit an adaptive response is 100% false (there is a massive HIT thread with all kinds of science illustrating exactly this fallacy at www.fortifiediron.com in the advanced theory discussion but it's better to save your time and take my word for it).

It really comes down to what you are accustomed to and what you can tolerate - and I can't really answer that. A program that is greater than what you can tolerate will gradually wear you down (it sounded like this to me originally) which is why it's important to get a handle on the symptoms. Getting dbol pumps is not related to overtraining - are you tired, are you not getting stronger, anything else? Prolonged aches and soreness certainly fit the bill but if you are possibly confusing these with dbol pumps we have an issue in diagnosis.

Anyway, the nutshell behind dual factor is that it manipulates the fatigue factor and pushes you right to the point of overreaching (on the verge of overtraining) - a loading phase can not be run indefinitely, it will bury you alive and this is the whole point and why it forces adaptation in that it is a frequent increasing stimulus that your body can not adequately recover from or even keep pace with. This is done purposely anywhere from 2-6 weeks and it kind of sounds like what you described early on. At that point you deload and allow the body to catch up and adapt - the response to which is overcompensation for the block of stimulus applied (i.e. you get much stronger and bigger and come back refreshed and ready to hit it hard again). Hence, me telling you to back off for a week or 2 with high intensity but low volume/frequency.

Now, if this is indeed overtraining (like I said, providing you vary intensity/volume in your training cycle this is a good thing) stepping back will get you back on your feet and you can reap the rewards in gains. If this is dbol pumps - well that's a lot of typing for no reason on my part.

 

[WannaBeBig72]

So when I theorize that it might be stepping into overtraining, it's important to understand that overtraining is not on a per muscle basis but a systemic basis - meaning your entire system and CNS. Chest and arm exercises aren't nearly as taxing as squats and deads so this doesn't really reveal much. I won't even touch on training to failure except that it is a great way to burn out your CNS and regardless of what HIT pundits will tell you the underlying idea that failure is required to elicit an adaptive response is 100% false (there is a massive HIT thread with all kinds of science illustrating exactly this fallacy at www.fortifiediron.com in the advanced theory discussion but it's better to save your time and take my word for it).

It really comes down to what you are accustomed to and what you can tolerate - and I can't really answer that. A program that is greater than what you can tolerate will gradually wear you down (it sounded like this to me originally) which is why it's important to get a handle on the symptoms. Getting dbol pumps is not related to overtraining - are you tired, are you not getting stronger, anything else? Prolonged aches and soreness certainly fit the bill but if you are possibly confusing these with dbol pumps we have an issue in diagnosis.

Anyway, the nutshell behind dual factor is that it manipulates the fatigue factor and pushes you right to the point of overreaching (on the verge of overtraining) - a loading phase can not be run indefinitely, it will bury you alive and this is the whole point and why it forces adaptation in that it is a frequent increasing stimulus that your body can not adequately recover from or even keep pace with. This is done purposely anywhere from 2-6 weeks and it kind of sounds like what you described early on. At that point you deload and allow the body to catch up and adapt - the response to which is overcompensation for the block of stimulus applied (i.e. you get much stronger and bigger and come back refreshed and ready to hit it hard again). Hence, me telling you to back off for a week or 2 with high intensity but low volume/frequency.

Now, if this is indeed overtraining (like I said, providing you vary intensity/volume in your training cycle this is a good thing) stepping back will get you back on your feet and you can reap the rewards in gains. If this is dbol pumps - well that's a lot of typing for no reason on my part.

Even if it is the Dbol pumps I'm still learning quite alot by your highly informative posts. No other symptoms of over-training however... This is day 5 since I started the DBol and I haven't seen any improvements in strength so far (but it's only been 4 days). Like I said I started to do chest today but after my 3rd set, which is usually my heaviest, I kind of started feeling a bit sore in my chest, so I stopped and did cardio (I probably should of continued and just went light). I did legs yesterday and today my legs are so damn sore it's crazy... My shoulders are still sore..And my back is still a little sore ( I did them Tuesday). I was just a little dissapointed today with not being able to do chest and triceps. I was all psyched to come out of the gate the first week with my 6 day routine and it didn't really pan out..I do feel like I'm perpetually pumped though.

I usually work out alone (I usually ask for a spotter for 2-3 sets) so I'm not sure if I could do the 5x5 workout routine. My goal is really to gain strength/mass. Can you send me a link to a routine you could recommend and an article that will discuss it more?

Thanks again. I've really learned a great deal from your posts.

 

[Madcow2]

My fault - I guess I wasn't reading carefully and didn't get your start date. So dbol and test in general can potentiate CNS activity (cheque drops are the best for this being super fast acting with a short halflife and were frequently used by PLers before lifts in competition). What this means is that set to set, you will recover faster, you will be able to lift more weight just from sheer ability to recruit more force. My thinking is that although the dbol might just be beginning to kick in from an anabolic standpoint the CNS potentiation is immediate and may play a role. Combine this with pushing yourself harder in the gym because you want to start off strong and you might be unknowingly subjecting yourself to increased loads relative to what you had been doing previously. Unusal soreness would fit with this.