Tips for Hard Gainers?

[dabuffguy]

Are you serious?

The example was one twin brother does only curls for a year, and the other does 500lb deads for a year. Obviously the brother that did the deads gained size everywhere, including his bies, while the guy that did only curls did not grow at all, including bies.

The body adapts to the stress we put on it, greater loads on the body the bigger it has to be to adapt. You do not need to bend at the elbow and do a useless curl to stimulate the bicept.

Try doing a 2-3x body weight deadlift and then tell me your bies don't get any stimulation.

A 3x time body weight dead for me is 675 lbs. Can't quite do that lol. I deadlift 425 lbs, pretty heavy. I don't get hardly any bicep stimulation that I can tell ( no pump). My forearms go on fire though. Maybe they do get stimulated, but I don't feel it.

There's no way someone would do curls and not have the bicep grow. That study sounds iffy. Part of the growth proccess is getting a tight pump. Having the muscle expand and stretch is one of they ways it is told to grow. The actual break down of the muscle occurs at this same point, stimulating it's reasons for getting stronger and growth as well.

The original point made was that curls are useless. That's not true. Tell Arnold, or Jay or Ronnie not to do curls or tricep extentions cuz they are wasting their time. They'll look at you like you are from another planet.

Sure, doing deadlifts will be far more beneficial to the whole body vs the curl, a because you will stimulate much more growth hormone and test production. i f could only do 3 excercises, it would be deads, squats and bench. deads being my first choice.

Basically, I'm being skeptical of the study. I gurarantee I could do just tricep extenions and curls only and get them to grow. But since there are better things to do, they are at the bottom of the list, but not a waste.


I know doing the 3 core excercises will show great improvement. I know doing just curls will show some improvement. I know the combo of both will show the best improvement, greater than the improvement of just the 3 core excercises.

 

[djeclipse]

A 3x time body weight dead for me is 675 lbs. Can't quite do that lol. I deadlift 425 lbs, pretty heavy. I don't get hardly any bicep stimulation that I can tell ( no pump). My forearms go on fire though. Maybe they do get stimulated, but I don't feel it.

There's no way someone would do curls and not have the bicep grow. That study sounds iffy. Part of the growth proccess is getting a tight pump. Having the muscle expand and stretch is one of they ways it is told to grow. The actual break down of the muscle occurs at this same point, stimulating it's reasons for getting stronger and growth as well.

The original point made was that curls are useless. That's not true. Tell Arnold, or Jay or Ronnie not to do curls or tricep extentions cuz they are wasting their time. They'll look at you like you are from another planet.

Sure, doing deadlifts will be far more beneficial to the whole body vs the curl, a because you will stimulate much more growth hormone and test production. i f could only do 3 excercises, it would be deads, squats and bench. deads being my first choice.

Basically, I'm being skeptical of the study. I gurarantee I could do just tricep extenions and curls only and get them to grow. But since there are better things to do, they are at the bottom of the list, but not a waste.


I know doing the 3 core excercises will show great improvement. I know doing just curls will show some improvement. I know the combo of both will show the best improvement, greater than the improvement of just the 3 core excercises.

You do realise the "pump" you feel has absolutely nothing to do with how well you've stressed the muscle.

The scientific research showed that there was no side gain difference from those that trained bies to those that didn't train bies while doing heavy compound lifts.

All that extra time spent doing curls, tri extensions was a waste of time as it resulted in NO size gain over those that did not do any kind of direct isolation.

This is taken from madcow's 5 x 5 site.

Well what's the best way to get a lot of hypertrophy for those looking to add muscle mass? Well, the body is a system and adapts best as a system. This is what makes squats, deads, rows, cleans, presses, and snatches very effective. You are using a large portion of your body's musculature to move a heavy weight (think intensity) through a fundamental range of motion. This is full body lifting stressing a large portion of the body's musculature all at once (microtrauma - especially good to bring up weak links and solidify the body's capability to work well as a single unit - and this is what "functional" is all about anyway). So adding weight to these exercises should net hypertrophy over the entire body. And we all know how hard it is to grow a muscle in isolation and that the body tends to stay within reasonable parameters of balance, just look at the curl boys who otherwise would all have huge arms - the training and workload is there and hitting the target muscle, the body just doesn't adapt like that past a fairly marginal point.

From a post on another site.

It is a scientifc fact that the more stress and microtrauma that you put on a muscle, then the larger it will grow. Curls and extensions simply can not compete with the heavy compound exercises in this area. This is not a "well it works for some people, but not others" type of issue. A bicep curl does not match a deadlift, chin-up, or even a heavy dumbbell row in terms of overall stress to the bicep. Tricep extensions will never match heavy presses or dips. The only way that someone could see more growth from these types of minor league exercises is if they didn't bother doing the compound lifts at all.

 

[dabuffguy]

You do realise the "pump" you feel has absolutely nothing to do with how well you've stressed the muscle.

Yes

The scientific research showed that there was no side gain difference from those that trained bies to those that didn't train bies while doing heavy compound lifts.

Each person is different. Measuring additional growth in multiple subjects is an inaccurate and impossible way to measure. How do you know whether the growth was from one thing or another. Multiple subjects or even a single subjects information on growth based upon doing just deadlifts or just curls is completely impossible to measure. Knowing whether the growth and stimulation came from one or the other is impossible. Let's say those that do deadlifts get more size than those that just do arms. And there are those that do both. How is it possible to keep track of which excercises showed greater overall improvement or no additional improvement if every subject has different DNA and different ways to respond to muscle stress, repair and growth?


All that extra time spent doing curls, tri extensions was a waste of time as it resulted in NO size gain over those that did not do any kind of direct isolation.

Again, go tell Jay Cutler he's wasting his time doing curls and tri extensions. Then come back here and tell me what his reaction was.

This is taken from madcow's 5 x 5 site.



From a post on another site.

char lim

 

[dabuffguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8P3NZImRXM

Just wasting his time?

 

[djeclipse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8P3NZImRXM

Just wasting his time?

This is how Jay Cutler Got big arms. Not curls

If doing curls all day got you big arms, you'd see skinny twig people waling around with 30" arms. All the misinformed people that waste their time doing 30 sets of curls would have huge arms. But they don't.

No matter how many sets of curls you do you're simply wasting your time, your arms will not grow unless you do compound movements that stress the entire body like Deads.

Whihc is what the scientific study I posted eariler showed us.

Keep doing those curls, do 30, 40 sets every day with minimal results, by all means, lol

 

[dabuffguy]

This is how Jay Cutler Got big arms. Not curls

If doing curls all day got you big arms, you'd see skinny twig people waling around with 30" arms. All the misinformed people that waste their time doing 30 sets of curls would have huge arms. But they don't.

No matter how many sets of curls you do you're simply wasting your time, your arms will not grow unless you do compound movements that stress the entire body like Deads.

False. I personally have gained mass over the last 2 years not doing squats or deads due to back injury. I've only been deading and quatting the last 7 weeks. 1.5 years ago I weighed 160. Now I weigh 225. Without ever doing a dead or a squat mind you. My arms went from 13.5" to 17"

Whihcis what the scientific study showed us.

Keep doing those curls, do 30, 40 sets every day with minimal results, by all means, lol

Jay Cutler does, so is he wrong and you're right? Come on man.

But why does Jay Cutler do curls as shown in this video? Because it's NOT of waste of time like you said. Nobody gets huge doing curls, it's the combo of all, deads being a key in mass. I agree with that whole heartedly. But, you said doing curls is a waste of time when the best and biggest bodybuilders all do it. I don't think they are all wrong, and you are right.


I'm not here to argue which movements give you the best size. We agree on that. You say curls are an utter waste. They are not, and I have provided sufficien evidence to support my side. Every Mr. Olympia has done them. Jay Cutler does them, Victor Martinez, Ronnie Coleman, Ahnold, every huge succesful bodybuilder does them, everybody that lifts weights do them because it's not a waste.

 

[deathdroprob]

But why does Jay Cutler do curls as shown in this video? Because it's NOT of waste of time like you said. Nobody gets huge doing curls, it's the combo of all, deads being a key in mass. I agree with that whole heartedly. But, you said doing curls is a waste of time when the best and biggest bodybuilders all do it. I don't think they are all wrong, and you are right.


I'm not here to argue which movements give you the best size. We agree on that. You say curls are an utter waste. They are not, and I have provided sufficien evidence to support my side. Every Mr. Olympia has done them. Jay Cutler does them, Victor Martinez, Ronnie Coleman, Ahnold, every huge succesful bodybuilder does them, everybody that lifts weights do them because it's not a waste.

I agree with dabuffguy.
Im sure compounds will actually make your arms bigger. But simply bigger, no peaks or huge Horse Shoe tris.
Thats where the Iso stuff comes in.

I only noticeed my Tris shape up decently until I worked them with a bit of knowledge about them in my head. What excersises targets which heads better etc.

And dont try and tell me You cant isolate certain heads etc.
I have a book with MRI scans done on the muscles imdeatialtly after the excerisie PROOVING some excersies do hit different heads/muscles.

Also I have always had lagging biceps. Doing only about 8 sets for them (not including compounds rows, deads etc.)
I latlely started doing alot of sets onthem. I mean alot.
SuperSets etc and now I have stretch marks on them.
From the growth Iso excersises have given me.

 

[djeclipse]

But why does Jay Cutler do curls as shown in this video? Because it's NOT of waste of time like you said. Nobody gets huge doing curls, it's the combo of all, deads being a key in mass. I agree with that whole heartedly. But, you said doing curls is a waste of time when the best and biggest bodybuilders all do it. I don't think they are all wrong, and you are right.


I'm not here to argue which movements give you the best size. We agree on that. You say curls are an utter waste. They are not, and I have provided sufficien evidence to support my side. Every Mr. Olympia has done them. Jay Cutler does them, Victor Martinez, Ronnie Coleman, Ahnold, every huge succesful bodybuilder does them, everybody that lifts weights do them because it's not a waste.

What evidence have you shown us? You haven't done your own scientific studdy. What you're saying is no different than me coming on here and saying "Whenever I eat green beans, tuna, and cottage cheese I get fat as hell, but whenever I switch over to cookies and candy bars I get ripped!!!"

I am not just making crap up, guessing, I get my info from a scientific controlled study.

Your own personal opinion is not scientific as it was not controlled. You said you spent 2 years without doing compound movement's and saw gains. Have you also spent 2 years doing heavy compound movements instead of isolation crap? No? My bet is you would be even bigger after 2 years of doing compound lifts with no isloation, then you are now after doing only isolation movements.


As for your hero Body Builders, they did not get their size from wasting time doing curls. The reason you see them doing curls and isolation is in the quote below.

The thing alot of people are missing is that bodybuilders carry around a perpetual pump often that powerlifters/strongmen do not.
their high rep concentration work produces sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is basically volumization and this is also why pro bodybuilders shrink noticeably much more so when they retire or stop lifting when compared to pro powerlifters or strongmen who retire or quit.

sarcoplasmic hypertrophy = high rep perpetual pump / fluid mass
myofibrilar hypertrophy = the result of heavy and/or explosive weight training and creates more keepable and useful muscle

 

[Mavafanculo]

The Effect of Supplemental Isolated Weight-Training Exercises on Upper-Arm Size and Upper-Body Strength

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN.
NSCA Conference Abstract (2000)

The researchers compared the effects of a weight training program on 5RM strength and arm circumference and divided the subjects into two groups. Group 1 performed four compound upper body exercises, while Group 2 used the same program but included biceps curls and triceps extensions.

The results showed that both groups significantly increased strength and arm size

However, the addition of direct arm training to group two produced no additional effect on strength or arm circumference after 10 weeks of training.

The additional localized training did not result in anything that the bigger compound exercises didn't provide.

hmmm thats interesting - I should give that a shot (save time)

I train lats and biceps same day, and I dont really get a full on bicep pump until I do biceps direct

 

[Mavafanculo]

monty 2589 -- you might actually be overtraining because of your split

for instance your back work also works the biceps after you did biceps the prior day.

you might try a different split

chest shoulders tripceps

back legs biceps

(traps where you feel most comfortable)