Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Does anyone have any tips for a hard gainer like me? I've been lifting for a while now and I can't seem to get my arms to grow. Everything else is growing but arms don't seem to want to grow. They've grown a little bit but not much. I work out Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays. On Mondays and Thursday I work my chest, shoulders and arms. On Tuesdays and Fridays I do my legs, back and abs. Does anyone have any advice what I can do get them to grow? I'm always afraid that I'm gonna over work them that might be one reason.
Tips for Hard Gainers?
- Thread starter monty2589
- Start date
monty2589 said:
Focus on your main lifts, squat, bench and deadlifts.
And break up your workouts further apart. Workng chest monday and thursday is too close together. do it eveyr 5 days.
I do this:
monday chest
T back
W shoulders/arms
Th legs
F off day
Sa chest
S off day(sunday, and off days sunday can fall between any workout, doesn't matter)
back
shoulders/arms
legs
I always take an off day after legs because deadlifts and squats suck all my energy out. i need a day for my body to rejuvi, then go again.
you can throw core/abs on any of these days, preferably not leg days because of exhaustion.
deathdroprob
Banned
No such thing as a 'Hard Gainer'
I call them, not-eating-enough-ers.
Thats all it comes down to.
I call them, not-eating-enough-ers.
Thats all it comes down to.
Right now I really don't get to work out the 4 days that I have planned cause I play college tennis and it takes up a lot of my time. I usually get to lift twice a week. Our Conference Tournament is next week so after that I should be able to lift as much as I want. I'm trying to get stronger and look better for tennis next semester.
For my arms, should I do the same thing everyday that I work them or should I mix up a little bit? Like let's say on Monday I do Preacher Curls, should I on Thursday do Standing Biceps Curls with a straight bar or should I do Preacher Curls again? I'm not saying that's the only exercise that I would do for my arms I'm just saying should I switch it up some or stay with the same routine?
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
The Effect of Supplemental Isolated Weight-Training Exercises on Upper-Arm Size and Upper-Body Strength
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN.
NSCA Conference Abstract (2000)
The researchers compared the effects of a weight training program on 5RM strength and arm circumference and divided the subjects into two groups. Group 1 performed four compound upper body exercises, while Group 2 used the same program but included biceps curls and triceps extensions.
The results showed that both groups significantly increased strength and arm size
However, the addition of direct arm training to group two produced no additional effect on strength or arm circumference after 10 weeks of training.
The additional localized training did not result in anything that the bigger compound exercises didn't provide.
deathdroprob said:
+1
Calling yourself a "Hard Gainer" is a cop out. You are just not hitting the Kitchen hard enough lol. Focus on progressing your core lifts and eat until you want to die.
Well I am a freshman in college so you know that they say that you gain "Freshman 15" which I have and it's not been fat either, mostly muscle but a little bit of fat as well. It's really a problem of eating anymore since I got into college because I eat a lot now. It didn't use to be that way. I use to not eat a lot so that did affect it but right now I think it's where I don't really have the time to take weight lifting serious and have enough time to do really good workouts. After my college tennis season is over, I'll be able to take it a lot more serious and put the time into it that I need to be able to grow and get stronger.
dropkick_shanahans14
New member
hard gaining is a myth IMO. I'd say just eat red meat, lots of veggies and nuts, gallon of milk a day, squat and deadlift.
djeclipse said:
I find some studies to be sketchy, including this one. I believe this same guy that wrote this article gave an example that someone doing only deadlifts will show as much bicep size development as someone who did just curls. That's a crock. Deadlifts do no stimulate the biceps, therefore giving it no reason to grow and it won't. You don't complete stimulate the bicep by doing rows and other pulling excrecises. Nor do you complete stimulate the heads of tricep by doing chest/shoulder presses. Therefore necessitating extensions and curls to obtain full stimulation and muscle growth and development.
I'll put it this way. Every hardcore famous bodybuilder does/did bicep curls and tricep extensions. Try and argue with one of them that they are wasting their time.
ximor
Member
I disagree. I regarded myself as a hardgainer for almost a year. I came across gains and power went up but extremely slower than more gifted workout partners i had. True, some people recover better and can hold more ATP but to be honest as soon as i started OVER feeding (eating alot more shit i didnt have the appetite for but i scarfed down anyway in a last ditch effort for growth) I began to grow the way i wanted to. To be truthful is sucks like hell to force feed yourself to the point of gagging on the food as you eat it, but if its clean enough you will grow.
To get the body you never had train like you never have before and eat more than you ever thought you could.
To get the body you never had train like you never have before and eat more than you ever thought you could.
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
Are you serious?
The example was one twin brother does only curls for a year, and the other does 500lb deads for a year. Obviously the brother that did the deads gained size everywhere, including his bies, while the guy that did only curls did not grow at all, including bies.
The body adapts to the stress we put on it, greater loads on the body the bigger it has to be to adapt. You do not need to bend at the elbow and do a useless curl to stimulate the bicept.
Try doing a 2-3x body weight deadlift and then tell me your bies don't get any stimulation.
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djeclipse said:
A 3x time body weight dead for me is 675 lbs. Can't quite do that lol. I deadlift 425 lbs, pretty heavy. I don't get hardly any bicep stimulation that I can tell ( no pump). My forearms go on fire though. Maybe they do get stimulated, but I don't feel it.
There's no way someone would do curls and not have the bicep grow. That study sounds iffy. Part of the growth proccess is getting a tight pump. Having the muscle expand and stretch is one of they ways it is told to grow. The actual break down of the muscle occurs at this same point, stimulating it's reasons for getting stronger and growth as well.
The original point made was that curls are useless. That's not true. Tell Arnold, or Jay or Ronnie not to do curls or tricep extentions cuz they are wasting their time. They'll look at you like you are from another planet.
Sure, doing deadlifts will be far more beneficial to the whole body vs the curl, a because you will stimulate much more growth hormone and test production. i f could only do 3 excercises, it would be deads, squats and bench. deads being my first choice.
Basically, I'm being skeptical of the study. I gurarantee I could do just tricep extenions and curls only and get them to grow. But since there are better things to do, they are at the bottom of the list, but not a waste.
I know doing the 3 core excercises will show great improvement. I know doing just curls will show some improvement. I know the combo of both will show the best improvement, greater than the improvement of just the 3 core excercises.
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
You do realise the "pump" you feel has absolutely nothing to do with how well you've stressed the muscle.
The scientific research showed that there was no side gain difference from those that trained bies to those that didn't train bies while doing heavy compound lifts.
All that extra time spent doing curls, tri extensions was a waste of time as it resulted in NO size gain over those that did not do any kind of direct isolation.
This is taken from madcow's 5 x 5 site.
From a post on another site.
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
This is how Jay Cutler Got big arms. Not curls
If doing curls all day got you big arms, you'd see skinny twig people waling around with 30" arms. All the misinformed people that waste their time doing 30 sets of curls would have huge arms. But they don't.
No matter how many sets of curls you do you're simply wasting your time, your arms will not grow unless you do compound movements that stress the entire body like Deads.
Whihc is what the scientific study I posted eariler showed us.
Keep doing those curls, do 30, 40 sets every day with minimal results, by all means, lol
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djeclipse said:This is how Jay Cutler Got big arms. Not curls
If doing curls all day got you big arms, you'd see skinny twig people waling around with 30" arms. All the misinformed people that waste their time doing 30 sets of curls would have huge arms. But they don't.
No matter how many sets of curls you do you're simply wasting your time, your arms will not grow unless you do compound movements that stress the entire body like Deads.
False. I personally have gained mass over the last 2 years not doing squats or deads due to back injury. I've only been deading and quatting the last 7 weeks. 1.5 years ago I weighed 160. Now I weigh 225. Without ever doing a dead or a squat mind you. My arms went from 13.5" to 17"
Whihcis what the scientific study showed us.
Keep doing those curls, do 30, 40 sets every day with minimal results, by all means, lol
Jay Cutler does, so is he wrong and you're right? Come on man.
But why does Jay Cutler do curls as shown in this video? Because it's NOT of waste of time like you said. Nobody gets huge doing curls, it's the combo of all, deads being a key in mass. I agree with that whole heartedly. But, you said doing curls is a waste of time when the best and biggest bodybuilders all do it. I don't think they are all wrong, and you are right.
I'm not here to argue which movements give you the best size. We agree on that. You say curls are an utter waste. They are not, and I have provided sufficien evidence to support my side. Every Mr. Olympia has done them. Jay Cutler does them, Victor Martinez, Ronnie Coleman, Ahnold, every huge succesful bodybuilder does them, everybody that lifts weights do them because it's not a waste.
deathdroprob
Banned
dabuffguy said:
I agree with dabuffguy.
Im sure compounds will actually make your arms bigger. But simply bigger, no peaks or huge Horse Shoe tris.
Thats where the Iso stuff comes in.
I only noticeed my Tris shape up decently until I worked them with a bit of knowledge about them in my head. What excersises targets which heads better etc.
And dont try and tell me You cant isolate certain heads etc.
I have a book with MRI scans done on the muscles imdeatialtly after the excerisie PROOVING some excersies do hit different heads/muscles.
Also I have always had lagging biceps. Doing only about 8 sets for them (not including compounds rows, deads etc.)
I latlely started doing alot of sets onthem. I mean alot.
SuperSets etc and now I have stretch marks on them.
From the growth Iso excersises have given me.
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
What evidence have you shown us? You haven't done your own scientific studdy. What you're saying is no different than me coming on here and saying "Whenever I eat green beans, tuna, and cottage cheese I get fat as hell, but whenever I switch over to cookies and candy bars I get ripped!!!"
I am not just making crap up, guessing, I get my info from a scientific controlled study.
Your own personal opinion is not scientific as it was not controlled. You said you spent 2 years without doing compound movement's and saw gains. Have you also spent 2 years doing heavy compound movements instead of isolation crap? No? My bet is you would be even bigger after 2 years of doing compound lifts with no isloation, then you are now after doing only isolation movements.
As for your hero Body Builders, they did not get their size from wasting time doing curls. The reason you see them doing curls and isolation is in the quote below.
Mavafanculo
New member
djeclipse said:
hmmm thats interesting - I should give that a shot (save time)
I train lats and biceps same day, and I dont really get a full on bicep pump until I do biceps direct
Mavafanculo
New member
monty 2589 -- you might actually be overtraining because of your split
for instance your back work also works the biceps after you did biceps the prior day.
you might try a different split
chest shoulders tripceps
back legs biceps
(traps where you feel most comfortable)
for instance your back work also works the biceps after you did biceps the prior day.
you might try a different split
chest shoulders tripceps
back legs biceps
(traps where you feel most comfortable)
djeclipse
New member
Mavafanculo said:
The pump doesn't mean anything aside form increased blood flow in that area. It doesn't mean you've stressed them enough to grow, the pump is not a good gauge.
You can drop the bies all together as long as you have 3 main movements for back.
1. Rows from the floor (each rep) with your back at 90deg to the ground (Pebdlay rows).
2. Heavy deads. (After my last set I have to sit down because I am out of breath and feel like I am going to pass out).
3. Weighted Chins 3 sets of 5-6.
All the above will give your bies all the stimulation you need to grow.
If you really want to feel the pump, as I agree it does look nice in the mirror, simply do 2-3 sets of straight barbell curls sets of 8-10. That will get the blood flowing and give you the nice pump you like, lol But it's not necessary.
If you have these 3 movements (Deads, Pendlay rows, weighted chins), you don't need to waste time doing anything else like cable pull downs, seated rows, or any cable machine, with heavy deads your traps will grow like mad, so no need for shrugs etc. Do these 3 movements in the gym, focusing on adding weight to the bar every week will save you time and get much better results.
Add in Some squats and you're set.
Mavafanculo
New member
djeclipse said:
re biceps, thats about what I'm doing now - after lats, 2 sets straight curls, 2 sets reverse curls
but I disagree on a max pump being purely cosmetic
1) fascia stretching, and
2) enhanced nutrient delivery (especially right b4 PWO feeding)
djeclipse said:
Again, I agree with you. They got their big mass from doing compound excercises. I AGREE. Why do you bring the argument up about this when I agree?
I did do a compound excercies. The bench press. I was physically unable to do deads or squats. I gained 50 lbs without touching a squat or a dead. That's big time mass, 50lbs. Almost 4 inches to my arms is big time mass. Now that I am able to deadlift and squat I have gained 7 lbs in 7 weeks. I'm starting to see the added benefit of the major compound excercises.
You say doing curls is a complete waste of time. I DISAGREE. Why, do I disagree? Because the best of the best do them, and If they do them, obviuosly feeling they are NOT a waste of time, I am going to follow their example.
Answer me this: Why do all the best bodybuilders do bicep curls and tricep extensions?
silverskyline
New member
monty2589 said:
^^^^ PROBLEM ISOLATED
Look at this pic of freddy rodriguez. He worked out one arm doing curls and extensions. A weird thing to do, but I doubt he did deads to get just one arm big, because according to your theory having one huge arm from doing isolation arm excercises is impossible because the excercises are a waste of time and don't produce results.
Curls and extensions do stimulate long term growth and strength. That's a fact. Freddy rodriguez is living proof.
Curls and extensions do stimulate long term growth and strength. That's a fact. Freddy rodriguez is living proof.
MichaelScott
New member
if you are doing an exercise that directly stresses the muscle and breaks it down, ie curls, it would eventually build the muscle up larger than it was. i thought that was the principle of muscle building tear it down, (curl), to build it up. if you continually add more stress to the muscle it will continue growing to a point. just my .02.
silverskyline
New member
Damn DJ your still on this? every thread I've seen you hit goes from wahtever it is to a discussion about this topis with everyone.
I havnt seen anyone completly agree yet however. just sayin
I havnt seen anyone completly agree yet however. just sayin
djeclipse said:This is how Jay Cutler Got big arms. Not curls
If doing curls all day got you big arms, you'd see skinny twig people waling around with 30" arms. All the misinformed people that waste their time doing 30 sets of curls would have huge arms. But they don't.
No matter how many sets of curls you do you're simply wasting your time, your arms will not grow unless you do compound movements that stress the entire body like Deads.
Whihc is what the scientific study I posted eariler showed us.
Keep doing those curls, do 30, 40 sets every day with minimal results, by all means, lol
silverskyline
New member
monty2589 said:
absolutly! you have to look our for your tagonist.antagonist musscles.
even working your tris the day after your bis your bis are tight and you wont get full extention on your tris like that.
also working a muccle group like your chest then tris the next day your trys will get over worked.
deathdroprob said:
People can argue programs all day long till they are blue in the face...
...but you hit the nail on the head.
djeclipse
New member
MichaelScott said:
Everyone and his brother goes to the gym and does 30 sets of curls usually twice a week. If muscle growth was localized you would see all these people with huge arms, but you don't. Doing 30 sets of curls does not give you the stimulation that a a few sets of a movement like the deadlift does.
djeclipse said:
True statement on all accounts. Even the quote in your post says that local stimulation will produce results, although limited because systemic load is small. Wouldn't be wasting your time if that limited extra amount of growth came to pass, would it?
Doing 30 sets of curls in defferent forms is total overkill. Nobody does sets 30 of bench press. Don't be so exxagerate. And anyone that does 30 sets of curls is a dumbass, and the reason they are small is because they don't know how to train or diet worth shit anyway so that's a bad example.
I do max 8 sets of curls, usually 4 if I do them at all. That's plenty with already doing back excercises, like rows and chins etc.
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
The university study I posted shows that if you are doing heavy compound movements you gain NO extra growth in the arms by doing isolation movements such as Curls, tri extensions.
Basically if all you did was curls and tri extensions at the gym, you would get some, but limited growth. As soon as you add in compound movements like Deads, Squats etc. there is absolutley no gain to be had by doing curls on top of these movements, you are literally wasting your time as it doesn't make a difference if you do them or not.
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
No? Flat bench, incline bench, decline bench, then do incline dumbell press, "incline flies for the stretch YO!", Decline dumbell press, cable cross overs 6 different ways, some new gay movement they read about in the latest BB mag, the list goes on.
I've seen people do close to 20-30 sets of chest exercises/ w/o, it's hardly an exaggeration.
silverskyline
New member
djeclipse said:
I see tons of guys at my gym that are massive that do curls
djeclipse said:
You do realize it's impossible to measure extra gain, in other words, it's impossible to assign which excercise actually produced the gains. We know that a heavy compound excercise will produce overall much greater mass, but how can one measure or even know if an isolatioon excercise did or did not contribute to the gain. If you are doing compound excercises, you are going to grow, but the growth flattens out, you gain less in the same period of time the further you go.
Determining that an isolation excercises contributed to no extra growth is totally bogus on all accounts. How can you know that, especially when gains become more linear vs exponential? The bicep won't whisper it in your ear, and you can't cut off someone's arm and open it count each cell and determine that the isolation excercise didn't contibute to gains. No one cannot possibly say definitively that an isolation excercise didn't contribute to gains. It's inmeasurable. impossible.
If you get gains by doing just isos and get gains by doing just compounds, a combination of compunds and isos will have to show better results than one or the other by itself. Those studies are bogus and they are leaving out the fact that the method of determination to distinguish gains/improvement as a direct result of one excercise or another when stimulating the same muscle is beyond the realm of human possibility. It can't be had and their conclusions of study still have a huge hole in the middle. That hole would be filled by a definitive answer to this question:
"How do you determine which excercise actually produced the stimulating effects that caused the muscle to respond in a positive manner as to grow and strengthen?"
You know what the answer is?
I do, and its:
"Oh, we can't definitvely say that one excrecise or another was a main, lesser or even soul contributor the stimulation of muscle growth. That's impossible."
The hole still remains, and so does the argument that doing curls is a 100% waste of time.
(Closing statement)
So, I will keep doing my curls, and benefiting from them while djeclipse doesn't do them and makes almost a good as progress as he would if he did. Buit that last little bit, however minimal it may be, is not a waste of time.
Let the jury decide. BTW, the jury is every bodybuilder that was ever somebody that made a name for themself, and they will find that doing curls and tricep extensions is not a waste of time.... Unanimously.
djeclipse said:
A fly isn't a bench press is it?
And I think many many people think Decline bench is less productful and a not needed excercise (still, I don't say it's a 100% waste of time). Because a flat bench targets the lower pec anyways, and dips will do the same
Lol, at the "some gay new movement they saw in a BB mag."
I do 12-15 sets on chest presses, bb and DB and dips, plus flies another 4 sets or so. So maybe a maximum of 20 sets of chest excercises which is plenty for me, with 15 being a press of sorts.
30 is 50% more, a huge difference in the context of bbing.
anyway, that doesn't matter we're discussing curls. 30 sets of curls is so over the top. Anyone that knows what they are doing knows that.
MichaelScott
New member
i do my curls in the squat rack, just sayin'
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
That is why they did the scientific study!!!
Don't assume it is impossible just because you don;t know how to do it. They do it all the time, it's called science.
It's called a scientific study.
Have you read the study I posted? This is the very reason you conduct a study like this, with 2 control groups.
To find out if 'X' has any effect you take 2 groups of people, keep everything else the same, give one group 'X' another group does not get 'X', after a period of time test the 2 groups and you will see if 'X' made a difference or not.
In this case 'X' is curls & tri extensions. The results were very clear, 'X' (curls & tri extensions) made no difference in arm size over the group without 'X'. It can't be more clear then that.
You're talking about stuff you are assuming tings, making statements based on these assumptions.
If you read the study you would not be making ignorant assumptions like above. Now you're just talking out of your ass.
djeclipse said:
Right, and they all benefit.
And your simile comparison is incomplete. Files, decline, incline, and cables is to the chest as rows of various types, pulldowns and curls are to the bicep.
I wasn't trying to switch things around, I just tried to not go off on a tangent about chest.
djeclipse said:
And that study has way to many variables to make a correct conclusion. things such as:
Did these people have the same height, weight, muscle development, genetic code, starting point of muscular anaerobic excercise.
Did they eat the exact same things, at the exact same time with exactly the same food porportion.
did they lift the exact same amount of weight for the exact same amount of repititions and sets, with exactly the same amount of rest between each sets.
These are all variable that can effect a scientific study, all of which I assume are not criteria met.
Besides, i thik you misunderstood what my point was.
When you do, say a set of rows row, it will effect the bicep and stimulate it to grow. Now, if you do a curl in the same workout, it will also stimulate the muscle to grow. How do you determine which excercise actually caused what percentge of amount of the total growth and strength? It is absolutely impossible to say that the row contributed 70% of the growth, and the curl 30%. You can't say that be cause it's impossible to determine. The same applies to this study.
Scientist also did a study that saliva causes cancer, but only when swallowed in small amounts over a long period of time. Does that mean saliva actually will cause cancer? No. Not all studies are the upmost authority on the issue.
One more time,
Why do the greatest bodybuilders do curls and tricep extensions?
silverskyline
New member
You kids make me laugh this arguement has been going on for prolly a month or more now with dj he will never think another way so why waste time on this?
I think it all started in the protein is necessary thread.
well at least your posts will get huge argueing all day long.
I think it all started in the protein is necessary thread.
well at least your posts will get huge argueing all day long.
And another thing, BF%, amount of water retention and just plain old hydration can also play a role in the variable as to how an arm measures, thus adding more variables to the measurement of actual muscle growth if you go by the tape measure method. Another thing this study probably didn't take into account.
and the fact that every person in that study was in a different stage of physical fitness, which also contributes to how much a muscle grows, therefore making an average gain within the group fluctuate by a good amount. A noob can put an inch on his arm in 6 weeks, i know this to be possible. a vet would only put on, let say, 1/8 inch as an example because they would gain slower, in 6 weeks. Even if a vet did deads, and all the good compound excercises, and the noob did just curls, the noob is going to show much greater improvement in overall size gained.
and the fact that every person in that study was in a different stage of physical fitness, which also contributes to how much a muscle grows, therefore making an average gain within the group fluctuate by a good amount. A noob can put an inch on his arm in 6 weeks, i know this to be possible. a vet would only put on, let say, 1/8 inch as an example because they would gain slower, in 6 weeks. Even if a vet did deads, and all the good compound excercises, and the noob did just curls, the noob is going to show much greater improvement in overall size gained.
silverskyline said:
I backed DJ up in that thread. He was right, and that other kid was wrong. ( I assume he was a kid cuz he semed like a younger, less knowledgable person.)
In this case, to claim that a curl is a waste of time is incorrect. I don't care if a curl only contributed to .000001% of the growth of the muscle when added to compound excercises, I don't see that as a waste of time. Any gain is beneficial, and worth the time no matter how minimal.
It's like saying lifting weights without steroids is stupid because roids make you huge, and doing it natty takes forever. A similar concept, in theory making sense, but in the real world is just wrong.
silverskyline
New member
dabuffguy said:
1 POINT - Even if a vet did deads, and all the good compound excercises, and the noob did just curls, the noob is going to show much greater improvement in overall size gained.
djeclipse said:This is how Jay Cutler Got big arms. Not curls
If doing curls all day got you big arms, you'd see skinny twig people waling around with 30" arms. All the misinformed people that waste their time doing 30 sets of curls would have huge arms. But they don't.
No matter how many sets of curls you do you're simply wasting your time, your arms will not grow unless you do compound movements that stress the entire body like Deads.
Whihc is what the scientific study I posted eariler showed us.
Keep doing those curls, do 30, 40 sets every day with minimal results, by all means, lol
Anyone else seeing a contradiction here?
Also, in response to the post where DJ showed Jay Cutler doing a deadlift.
Does that mean that the video I posted where he did a full routine of biceps curls is wrong? Are you saying his full bicep curl routine is a waste of time?
Oh, yeah and in response the the sarcoplasmic mass vs the other , which is temporary, or a pump. BBers only use this before going on stage. In the video I posted where Jay is doing a full bicep curl routine, I didn't get the slightest impression that he about to go on a stage and pose, did you?
silverskyline
New member
dabuffguy said:
Not at all I was supprised at your wall backing ability lol.
I've been over this a hundred time with him he's a good guy it seems just has a head strong oppinion of his method being the only method it seems.
I stick with isolation when I'm cutting I do more of a total body work out but not when bulking it works for me
silverskyline said:
def. a good bro. And obviously his opinions are very strong. I usually don't like to sit and argue a point, but this one seemed to play the right chord and activate my argumentative side.
I just see it differently than he. I don't think it's right telling everyone a curl or an extension is a total waste of time when the biggest and strongest guys all do them. He'll say they got big from doing deads etc. I have been clear that I agree with that, but a curl is not 100% unproductive like he's playing it out to be.
The moment Jay or Ronnie comes out and says that they regret doing curls and extensions and wish they had that time back in their lives because it was wasted, I'll happily give DJeclipse 250,000 Karma.
What do you mean by not at all? You don't see the contradiciton?
In one post he says an arm absolutely will not grow unless you do compound excercises, and then in a quote he tried to use for his support said that stimulating just a forearm will make it grow, even without a compound excersize. That's is a contradiction.
Wall backing ability? Didn't understand what you meant.
silverskyline
New member
hahaha nice happily give 250,000 K once the head honchos say so. I'll donate to that fund!
wall backing ability, basically pin pointing words and phrases utalized in order to back your opponent into a corner like in boxing. so he's trapped and cant get out
wall backing ability, basically pin pointing words and phrases utalized in order to back your opponent into a corner like in boxing. so he's trapped and cant get out
dabuffguy said:
deathdroprob
Banned
MichaelScott said:
i heart U
djeclipse
New member
You keep talking about what if, this, what if that, new lifter vs older lifter.
A control group rules out everything you bring up in your argument. A control group is a group of people that are similar in every aspect. The results are that doing curls on top of major lifts produced NO extra benefit in size.
New or old lifter it doesn't matter, growth will be relative.
2 new lifters, one doing compound movements, one doing compound movements and then some curlZ. The arm size gain = same
Or 2 experienced lifters, one doing compound movements only, one doing compound movements and then curls. the arm size gain = same.
Not according to me, according to this scientific study.
You keep saying it's impossible to rule out all these factors, but who are you? The entire point of a scientific study is to have only one variable, curls or no curls is the only variable, everything else is controlled (what lifts they do, food etc).
But of course, who am I to believe in science when we have dabuffguy giving his opinions? How can I argue with opinions, certainly his opinion is no match for actual science.
Maybe the next time someone comes up with a new cancer drug/ treatment they should save all that money, time and research and just ask dabuffguy what he things about the effectiveness of the drug. Screw science. I always knew those funny looking guys in lab coats with years of education under their belts were just a sham. Thanks dabuffguy for letting us in on that secret.
A control group rules out everything you bring up in your argument. A control group is a group of people that are similar in every aspect. The results are that doing curls on top of major lifts produced NO extra benefit in size.
New or old lifter it doesn't matter, growth will be relative.
2 new lifters, one doing compound movements, one doing compound movements and then some curlZ. The arm size gain = same
Or 2 experienced lifters, one doing compound movements only, one doing compound movements and then curls. the arm size gain = same.
Not according to me, according to this scientific study.
You keep saying it's impossible to rule out all these factors, but who are you? The entire point of a scientific study is to have only one variable, curls or no curls is the only variable, everything else is controlled (what lifts they do, food etc).
But of course, who am I to believe in science when we have dabuffguy giving his opinions? How can I argue with opinions, certainly his opinion is no match for actual science.
Maybe the next time someone comes up with a new cancer drug/ treatment they should save all that money, time and research and just ask dabuffguy what he things about the effectiveness of the drug. Screw science. I always knew those funny looking guys in lab coats with years of education under their belts were just a sham. Thanks dabuffguy for letting us in on that secret.
djeclipse
New member
As for the pro body builders doing a tone of sets of curls, for the last time, that is now how they got their size. The body has limits, you can not have 30" arms on a 115lb stick frame. It's simply genetics.
As quoted before, bro body builders walk around with a perpetual pump, not just the day of a competition, but throughout the competition season. That is why they loose so much size during the off season, that pump is not actual muscle..
As quoted before, bro body builders walk around with a perpetual pump, not just the day of a competition, but throughout the competition season. That is why they loose so much size during the off season, that pump is not actual muscle..
djeclipse
New member
dabuffguy said:
No, the original argument and my point was if you are doing proper compound lifts, you get no size gains form dong curls. Hence a waste of time.
And the original thread had something to do about being a hard gainer, which we can all agree that eating more is the fix for that.
19psi
New member
all i know is, my arms grew fast enough to get stretch marks during a period of time where i did nohting but squats, deads and presses. i threw in some tri work sometimes just because i like training tris, but never any bi work because i hated training bi's! and they still grew....
silverskyline
New member
I like hamsters that lift weights!
dropkick_shanahans14
New member
I think each opinion matters to the specific training and goals of the lifter. If I'm a weightlifter or powerlifter, curls are not important to me, but if I'm a body builder then curls might be important to me. I agree that in order for iso movements to be affective for a bodybuilder, the lifter must have a strong base in the deadlift, squat, and bench, and must stuff his face full of food. It's just that important to increase the lifts of the squat and deadlift being the most important for a bodybuilder, in order to see a noticeable size increase for the arms when doing iso work for them, and doing them at reps high enough to trigger hypertrophy.
That's just for the bodybuilder though, whom shape themselves to a greater mass than the other lifters. But assuming the lifter wants to get better at certain compound lifts, practicing the squat and deadlift and bench with a good diet will also noticeably see increases in arm size, not as big as a bodybuilder's of course, but noticeably bigger.
Here's also an interesting article: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6975191-post9.html
That's just for the bodybuilder though, whom shape themselves to a greater mass than the other lifters. But assuming the lifter wants to get better at certain compound lifts, practicing the squat and deadlift and bench with a good diet will also noticeably see increases in arm size, not as big as a bodybuilder's of course, but noticeably bigger.
Here's also an interesting article: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6975191-post9.html
dropkick_shanahans14 said:
That IS a good read. I totally agree with all of that. What I noticed he was saying that doing the iso excercises aren't going to get you big arms. I have always agreed with that. Doing them by themselves is going to give you results, but not like you hope for. Doing the big squats and deads will definitely increase strength and size over the whole body because the systemic load is big. Where I came to the disagreement with DJ is where he said that the addition of iso arm excercises when doing the big lifts is a waste of time. I don't think it's a waste of time, but I do agree with him on the fact that the big lifts produce the big results. The arm isos may be insignificant when compared to the big lifts. But not 100% unproductive either.
sugashane
New member
monty2589 said:
I'm in the same boat as you. What helped me was doing a HIT to avoid burning extra calories. Get in, get out, rest and grow. But with HIT you MUST bust your ass. Force feed yourself and make sure you take in some fats. They have 9 cals/g, compared to 4 cals/g for protein and carbs. Since you have a fast metabolism, you can get away with it. Also take a slow acting protein before bed and another trick I did was set my alarm for the middle of the night. Take another slow acting protein shake to stay anabolic, and get back to sleep. Maybe add some EVOO to your shakes but START SLOW AND SMALL. If not you will be stuck to the toilet all day. Good luck and hope to hear some good news later man.
silver_shadow
New member
back on topic: the suggestion to do alot of curls (and basically most iso exercises) is a bit out of place for a guy who hasn't already built up a base through lots of compound exercises.
and i agree with rob about there being no such thing as a hard gainer. most guys use that as an excuse for their own lack of determination.
and i agree with rob about there being no such thing as a hard gainer. most guys use that as an excuse for their own lack of determination.
silver_shadow
New member
alot of old school bodybuilders used to get in some extra cals by doing this. i've tried it and didn't have much problems mainly because i'd down half a gallon of milk when i woke up at 4 in the morning. i just climbed back into bed after taking a leak, shut my eyes and i was asleep. i don't do this anymore because i'm after much slower gains now.dabuffguy said:
djeclipse
New member
silver_shadow said:
When you get up in the middle of the night you're disrupting deep sleep, which is when your body really can relax and repair itself. If you get up and go back to bed, you may fall asleep right away, but you may not be getting back to that deep sleep state of sleep again.
Sleep is more important at night then eating protein at 4:00am. Just make sure you eat enough durring the day and in the AM
silver_shadow
New member
well in theory it would work that way. but i still got good results and i'm not sure that waking up had a very adverse effect. anyway the weird thing is that i THINK i must have gone back into deep sleep...djeclipse said:
silver_shadow said:
THERE YA GO!!!! I think this was really all djeclipse was trying to say too.
If you're a 250 lb BB'er, do those curls to get that extra 1/2 inch growth/pump on your bi's, but if you're not sporting a MINIMUM of 3 to 3.5 lbs. of bodyweight per inch of height, at a reasonably low bodyfat level (I'd say 10% or less), then don't worry about curls, just get more mass. Of course if you're satisfied being a smaller guy, do your curls anyway. Hell, do whatever is working for you.
djeclipse
New member
ceo said:
lol, you got sucked back into this thread... I knew you couldn't resist for ever.
Pretty much ya. I do agree that there is a point where you have packed on so much muscle mass (not fat) for your frame that you aren't really going to grow any more (unless you're willing to take a shit load of GH, TEST and what ever else you can get your hands on). At that point I can see where trying to get every 3/16" of size you can get, and maybe doing curls will give it to you ( the perpetual pump mentioned before).
But lets be honest, fake internet stats aside, there is a very small % of us that are truly at the stage. 99.9% of the people you see at the gym, and on the internet forums are no where near that point, yet still think they need to do the w/o that .1% is doing, and believe that it's going to be optimal for them.
For those people, myself included, if you are training core lifts (the lifts that are optimal for growth) then the isloation work is a waste of time as it is not what makes your body grow and more specifically, it is not what makes your arms grow. The heavy compound lifts is what makes your entire body grow, including your arms.
silver_shadow
New member
i kept thinking it was the milk that made me feel sleepy all over again.djeclipse said:
dj: I completely understand the point you are trying to make, but do not say that isolation exercises are a waste of time please as we all know this is false. The study that you continue to show might be "scientific" but there are way too many variables such as diet that were not accounted for, making the study useless.
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