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lookinfit75
New member
ok I am going to bump this up for further inspection tomorrow. Looks like an interesting read...
The Myth Of "Keepable" Gains
- Thread starter Nelson Montana
- Start date
Fudge Tunnel
Banned
Time for a reality check.
First off, newbies who ask how much of their gains they're going to keep should be directed to this post. There are too many variables to determine what you'll keep. And it isn't the dosages.
Some important points.
People say d-bol gains aren't keepable then they go and recommend test.
Wrong.
Gains from test are no more keepable than those from d-bol. Maybe less. The most solid gains are those created by nitrogen retention. (As is the case with natural training). This is what makes Primobolin so great. But the muscle growth with Primo is slight and slow ( Much like with natural training, though certainly faster). This is how muscle growth occurs. But people want fast noticable gains. Test increases water retention and that gives the impression of greater growth, but it's an illusion. The strength increase is due to more androgen but once that leaves the body, all you have is whatever extra nitrogen retention was obtained form the anabolic nature of the test. In short , it won't be much.
1000 mgs of Primobolin a week will give as much, if not more KEEPABLE muscle growth than 1000 mgs of testosterone.
The testosterone will just seem more dramatic at the time.
The reason D-bol has a rep for not lasting is that it increases blood volume. That's what gives the coveted "D-bol pump." But of course, you lose that shortly after cessation. But again, it doesn't mean you didn't gain muscle if you trained right and ate right. You just lose that blood volume.
PCT is not a sure fire way of keeping gains. For the most part, PCT helps to avoid a backlash of estrogen and low T and the side effects associated with it. It's not a "cure-all."
Let's not forget the need for bioavailable "free' testosterone in the recovery stage. This is what's so great about PROVIRON. But Proviron is suppressive, so what you get back on one end you lose on the other. This is why naturally increasing free testoterone is the way to go. That means avenacosides A&B and Muara Puama.
One product has the highest precentages at the best price, but I'll leave that for you to figure out.Seriously, this is as important -- maybe more important, than supressing estrogen.
One of the reasons guys use creatine PC has nothing to do with maintaining gains. Creatine replaces the water retention lost from the drugs. It also increases strength. Not a bad idea, but it's more of a psychological ploy than a physical one.
This is why I'm so interested in coming up with stuff for bodybuilders who inderstand how the body works. Creatine with spray dried plasma does things that some B.S. whey concentrate drink can't. My newest VIGOR increases blood vlume (ala'D-bol). Instead of trying to be drugs, they do naturally what drugs do. It makes sense to add as much of a natural advantage to any drug regiment, because in the end it's the more natural gains that you keep. Why not have the two compliment each other?
So in short -- anabolics grow muscle. Androgens create the srength to lift harder, thus building more muscle on cycle -- natural supps that relicate the effects of drugs increase the gains and allow them to remain.
So the next time someone what to know how much they'll keep, tell them, maybe all -- maybe none. Personally, I'd rather keep 10 pounds from a 750 mg 6 weeks cycle than 13 pounds from 1500mgs 20 week cycle. And 3 months later with no help, some guys keep none at all. (That's why brigding works so well. It's not coming off).
Go natural for 4 months and test your weight and bf% THAT is what you've gained. Whatever it is, much of it CAN be permanent. It all depends on what you do about it.
No it's not.
What isn't?
Fudge Tunnel
Banned
Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7.
The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).
Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.
Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment did not decreased either plasma testosterone or protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.
Straight from pubmed. Even with doses of up to 450mg a day there was no suppressive evidence.
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Well to that, I'll say this...
I agree that MAST isn't terribly suppressive, but something has to be missing form that particular study. After all, it was used to treat depression. (And they say BOUND testosterone didn't change). ANY exogenous influx of ANYTHING that the body produces naturally will cause suppression. It's basic physiology.
Hey, if Provion wasn't suppressive, why don't we all go on 5000 mgs a day non stop? There are side effects to everything.
Again, Proviron is reletively safe but not without sides. UNLEASHED works similarly but without the sides since it is non hormonal. That's all. Proviron has it's place, but the belief that it is non suppressive, I believe, is off base.
Fudge Tunnel
Banned
Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone.
Nikkanen V.
There were no changes in plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of 24 healthy men treated with mesterolone for infertility during period of 6 months. The patients were normolipemic and the daily doses were 75 mg. No side-effects were noticed. Mesterolone seems to have too selective or too low androgenic effect with the doses used in order to have an influence on the lipid metabolism of men.
Nikkanen V.
There were no changes in plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of 24 healthy men treated with mesterolone for infertility during period of 6 months. The patients were normolipemic and the daily doses were 75 mg. No side-effects were noticed. Mesterolone seems to have too selective or too low androgenic effect with the doses used in order to have an influence on the lipid metabolism of men.
Fudge Tunnel
Banned
You're trying to nit pick with things here. The reason "we" all don't go on 500mg a day is a poor response for many reason which don't need to be addressed. Cost maybe?
I have no idea what UNLEASHED is, so I can't comment on that.
You can choose to believe what you wish, but I will trust medical studies over anything else when it comes to putting things into my body.
You stating in your original post that proviron is suppressive is just inaccurate.
You're missing an important point. You say "choose to believe medical studies" but that isn't really true if you don;t completely understand what's going on. This is just taking something out of context and drawing a conclusion and calling it a medical fact.
it's not unlike the guy who grabs an elephants tail in the dark and says "Oh, it's like a snake." There's more to the story.
I don't know all the particulars of the study you posted but I do know it isn't very complete. When were T levels checked? During? After? How long after?
The nitpicking is on both sides. I'm not claiming Proviron is a suppressive as testosterone, because it isn't. It's essentially DHT and affects the HPTA less so. I'm just saying there is more to these studies. The fact that it's on the internet does not tell the whole story.
jacshelb
New member
From the sounds of it the test levels were checked while on the Proviron. If that's the case, then yeah, it's not just not telling the whole story, but it's not telling the pertinent story at all. The real question is where are these people's test levels 2 months after the dose has stopped?
jacshelb
New member
On the subject of "keepable gains" I would point to people staying "on" in some form or another. I'm not recommending this for everyone. But, at this point, I am tired of going up and down in weight so much. After my last cycle I went on SARM s4 and kept almost all of my gains (sans water weight which should be obvious) while still recovering my sex drive, testicle size, energy levels etc. I didn't have blood work done, so I'm not trying to state anything conclusively here. But, I was very pleased with the visual results.
I think the use/cycling of peptides (especially HGH) and using SARMS between cycle could result in some outstanding long term gains. One of the main reasons people lose gains post cycle is that their natural testosterone is suppressed, estrogen is too high etc. etc. Without test levels optimal they don't have the ability to utilize protein efficiently and they are in a catabolic state.
I believe that if a person did 6-10 week moderate/heavy cycles followed by 6-7 weeks of low dose s4 and GH they'd come out at the end of all that with even more gains than at the end of their initial cycle. And, upon stopping the s4 their natural test levels would likely be near or at normal. At that point you'd still lose some gains over time, but it wouldn't be nearly as dramatic as if they'd done a 12-16 week heavy aas cycle and then tried some pct etc.
I believe we really need to re-think our whole approach to cycling- those of us who still do cycle that is. If you are doing hrt level doses between "blasts" I think the same things apply as if you were using the s4- i.e. you'd want to compliment it with some GH etc. Just my opinions.
I think the use/cycling of peptides (especially HGH) and using SARMS between cycle could result in some outstanding long term gains. One of the main reasons people lose gains post cycle is that their natural testosterone is suppressed, estrogen is too high etc. etc. Without test levels optimal they don't have the ability to utilize protein efficiently and they are in a catabolic state.
I believe that if a person did 6-10 week moderate/heavy cycles followed by 6-7 weeks of low dose s4 and GH they'd come out at the end of all that with even more gains than at the end of their initial cycle. And, upon stopping the s4 their natural test levels would likely be near or at normal. At that point you'd still lose some gains over time, but it wouldn't be nearly as dramatic as if they'd done a 12-16 week heavy aas cycle and then tried some pct etc.
I believe we really need to re-think our whole approach to cycling- those of us who still do cycle that is. If you are doing hrt level doses between "blasts" I think the same things apply as if you were using the s4- i.e. you'd want to compliment it with some GH etc. Just my opinions.
