the greatest armies in the world

[heatherrae]

the country got destroyed because they lost
but germany came damn close to winning
and if they had won germany would be a superpower equal to the US today

and there never would have been a 50 year cold war against the USSR
eastern europe would have prospered instead of being economically stagnated for half a century under the soviets domain

Roosevelt dies and the US govt makes peace with germany as does britian
it's right there in mein kampf how Hitler wanted to ally with the British empire

he hated jews and communists

the jewish people got the short end of the stick
which isn't unusual

personally I'm not anit-semitic
I've studied the 4 arab-Isreali wars starting with the war of independence in 1948
the jews kicked ass and I admire them for their tenacity
and I admire their successful business endeavors

hell my high school was 20-25% Jewish

Damn close only counts in horse shoes. He fucked everything up worse for them. Plus, he butchered millions of people in horrific ways. I can't believe people are arguing his merits.

Shall we discuss that Charles Manson planted some pretty nice veggie gardens, too?

 

[Gambino]

the country got destroyed because they lost
but germany came damn close to winning
and if they had won germany would be a superpower equal to the US today

i dunno bro, i doubt they would've ever had a firm grasp of the east.
even after they blew thru the border towns, yrs later they were still fighting insurgents and rebels.
the germans heavyhanded tactics for displine in this area (for example taking local hostages and killing 10 for 1 german) were a failure.
it would've been near impossible for a longer term german hold

 

[Spartacus]

No, this one is by Hitler himself. If you think it is fake, that is one thing. But, purportedly by the historians who were featured on History channel, it exists. I didn't hear the story incorrectly and remember what was said very well. Perhaps google the story from the history channel for more info on what I am talking about.

I know the History channel is sometimes a piss poor source of info b/c they sensationalize it and dumb everything down, but they most certainly had a show about this unpublished book by Hitler and its contents.

I'll try the history channel
I googled "hitler's memoirs" earlier and the early first page hits were this book by Wagenor or something


Hitler - Memoirs of a Confidant by Henry Ashby Turner
and this review


Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
In 1946, German economist Wagener, then a prisoner of war, wrote these reminiscences of Hitler, whom he advised for years on economic policy and political matters. PW stated that, "World War II, the betrayal of Russia, the Holocaust, everything is here between and beneath the linesall of it instructive reading."
Copyright 1987

 

[heatherrae]

I'll try the history channel
I googled "hitler's memoirs" earlier and the early first page hits were this book by Wagenor or something


Hitler - Memoirs of a Confidant by Henry Ashby Turner
and this review


Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
In 1946, German economist Wagener, then a prisoner of war, wrote these reminiscences of Hitler, whom he advised for years on economic policy and political matters. PW stated that, "World War II, the betrayal of Russia, the Holocaust, everything is here between and beneath the linesall of it instructive reading."
Copyright 1987

I said that I dont recall the title and that it is an unpublished book. Looking for a published book really wont be fruitful.

 

[Spartacus]

Damn close only counts in horse shoes. He fucked everything up worse for them. Plus, he butchered millions of people in horrific ways. I can't believe people are arguing his merits.

Shall we discuss that Charles Manson planted some pretty nice veggie gardens, too?

I'm done with you

 

[heatherrae]

I'm done with you

Here is a reference to the episode on the history channel.

http://military-forums.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4761074/m/694101923

 

[Spartacus]

Here is a reference to the episode on the history channel.

http://military-forums.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4761074/m/694101923

Gerhard Weinberg is Jewish
I hardly expect a balanced and non-biased assessment of adolf from a Jew
not gonna happen

there are several well written books on hitler that are quite thick too
some one hour TV segment is not going to give you any decent understanding

would you write a paper and include a TV program in your bibliography?

I'm not glorifying hitler
I'm just trying to understand him from a dispassionate angle
I'm more into the german military
and it's my opinion that if hitler and his henchmen never appeared on the scene

Germany would have re-armed regardless and still have fought a war with the USSR
Stalin's intentions are well documented
he's the one who really could be said to desire world domination

 

[heatherrae]

Gerhard Weinberg is Jewish
I hardly expect a balanced and non-biased assessment of adolf from a Jew
not gonna happen

there are several well written books on hitler that are quite thick too
some one hour TV segment is not going to give you any decent understanding

would you write a paper and include a TV program in your bibliography?

I'm not glorifying hitler
I'm just trying to understand him from a dispassionate angle
I'm more into the german military
and it's my opinion that if hitler and his henchmen never appeared on the scene

Germany would have re-armed regardless and still have fought a war with the USSR
Stalin's intentions are well documented
he's the one who really could be said to desire world domination

You argued that there was no such book. I said that there was. I didn't base my comments about hitler on that book. However, in watching the program, they did directly quote passages from Hitler in which he discussed plans to attack America.

I'm not writing a thesis, but if I were, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to include a source other than a book. The use of secondary sources is well established. However, instead of insulting my academic abilities, which you must assume are somehow inferior or lacking, how about we stay on topic?

Your arguments about Germany eventually rearming, etc. are pretty lame. Really, why not measure the man based upon what he accomplished or failed to accomplish. No matter how you try to spin it, he caused Germany great harm and killed millions of innocent people.

 

[Spartacus]

I stand corrected
it's known as "the second book"
interesting
basically hitler sees the USA as a "dangerous foe"

from wikopedia

There are a number of similarities and differences between Zweites Buch and Mein Kampf. Turning towards the former first, as in Mein Kampf, Hitler declared that the Jews were his eternal and most dangerous opponents. As in Mein Kampf, Hitler outlined what the German historian Andreas Hillgruber has called his Stufenplan (Stage by stage plan). Hitler himself never used the term Stufenplan, which was coined by Hillgruber in his 1965 book Hitlers Strategie. Briefly, the Stufenplan called for three stages. In the first stage, there would be a massive military build-up, the overthrow of the “shackles” of the Treaty of Versailles, and the forming of alliances with Fascist Italy and the British Empire. The second stage would be a series of fast, lightning wars in conjunction with Italy and Britain against France and whichever of her allies in Eastern Europe such as Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia chose to stand by her. The third stage would be a war to obliterate what Hitler considered to be the “Judeo-Bolshevik” regime in the Soviet Union.

One way in which Zweites Buch differs from Mein Kampf is that in Zweites Buch, Hitler added a fourth stage to the Stufenplan. In Zweites Buch, Hitler announced that around 1980 the final struggle for world domination would take place between the United States and the now Greater Germany allied with the British Empire. The most spectacular difference between Mein Kampf and Zweites Buch is in Hitler’s views regarding the United States. In Mein Kampf, Hitler declared that Germany’s most dangerous opponent on the international scene was the Soviet Union. In Zweites Buch, Hitler declared that for immediate purposes, the Soviet Union was still the most dangerous opponent, but that in the long-term, the most dangerous potential opponent was the United States. Beyond that, Hitler’s views on the United States changed dramatically between 1924 and 1928.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler rarely mentioned the United States and when he did, it was in a tone of deep contempt. In Mein Kampf, Hitler portrayed the United States as a “racially degenerate” society on its way to self-oblivion. By contrast, in Zweites Buch, Hitler portrayed the U.S. as a dynamic, “racially successful” society that practiced eugenics and segregation and followed what Hitler considered to be a wise policy of excluding “racially degenerate” immigration from eastern and southern Europe. What promoted the change in Hitler's views between 1924 and 1928 is not known. By 1928, Hitler seems to have heard about the massive industrial wealth of the U.S., the Immigration Act of 1924, segregation and the fact that several American states had eugenics boards to sterilize people who were considered mentally defective, and was favorably impressed. Hitler proclaimed his admiration for these sorts of policies and expressed his wish that Germany would do similar things, though on a much greater scale.

Of all Germany’s potential enemies, Hitler ranked the United States as the most dangerous. By contrast, Hitler saw the United Kingdom as a fellow “Aryan” power that in exchange for Germany's renunciation of naval and colonial ambitions would ally itself with Germany. France in Hitler’s opinion, was rapidly “Negroizing” itself. In regards to the Soviet Union, Hitler dismissed the Russian people as being Slavic Untermensch (sub-humans) incapable of any sort of intelligent thought. Hitler consequently believed that the Russian people were ruled over by what he regarded as a gang of bloodthirsty but inept Jewish revolutionaries. By contrast, the majority of Americans were in Hitler’s view “Aryans”, albeit Aryans ruled by what Hitler saw as a Jewish plutocracy. In Hitler’s point of view, the combination of “Aryan” might coupled with “Jewish rule” was what made the U.S. so dangerous.

Only two copies of the original 200 page manuscript were made, and only one of these copies has ever been made public. Zweites Buch was not published in 1928 as Mein Kampf was not selling well, and Hitler's publisher informed him that having two books out would depress sales even further. By the time Mein Kampf started to sell well after the September 1930 Reichstag elections, Hitler decided that Zweites Buch revealed too much of his foreign policy goals. Kept strictly secret under Hitler's orders, the document was placed in a safe inside an air raid shelter in 1935 where it remained until its discovery by an American officer in 1945. The authenticity of the book was verified by Josef Berg, a former employee of the Nazi publishing house Eher Verlag and Telford Taylor, the former Brigadier General U.S.A.R. and Chief Counsel at the Nuremberg war-crimes trials. The book was neither edited nor published during the Nazi Germany era and remains known as Zweites Buch translated as "Second Book". The Zweites Buch was first discovered in the Nazi archives being held in the United States by the German-born Jewish American historian Gerhard Weinberg in 1958. Unable to find an American publisher, Weinberg turned to his Jewish mentor Hans Rothfels and his associate Martin Broszat at the Institute of Contemporary History in Munich, who published Zweites Buch in 1961 in German. Rothfels was immensely pleased by his protégé’s discovery and wrote the foreword to the 1961 edition. A pirated edition was translated into English and published in New York in 1962. The first authoritative English edition was not published until 2003 as Hitler's Second Book: The Unpublished Sequel to Mein Kampf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

 

[heatherrae]

I stand corrected
it's known as "the second book"
interesting
basically hitler sees the USA as a "dangerous foe"

from wikopedia

There are a number of similarities and differences between Zweites Buch and Mein Kampf. Turning towards the former first, as in Mein Kampf, Hitler declared that the Jews were his eternal and most dangerous opponents. As in Mein Kampf, Hitler outlined what the German historian Andreas Hillgruber has called his Stufenplan (Stage by stage plan). Hitler himself never used the term Stufenplan, which was coined by Hillgruber in his 1965 book Hitlers Strategie. Briefly, the Stufenplan called for three stages. In the first stage, there would be a massive military build-up, the overthrow of the “shackles” of the Treaty of Versailles, and the forming of alliances with Fascist Italy and the British Empire. The second stage would be a series of fast, lightning wars in conjunction with Italy and Britain against France and whichever of her allies in Eastern Europe such as Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia chose to stand by her. The third stage would be a war to obliterate what Hitler considered to be the “Judeo-Bolshevik” regime in the Soviet Union.

One way in which Zweites Buch differs from Mein Kampf is that in Zweites Buch, Hitler added a fourth stage to the Stufenplan. In Zweites Buch, Hitler announced that around 1980 the final struggle for world domination would take place between the United States and the now Greater Germany allied with the British Empire. The most spectacular difference between Mein Kampf and Zweites Buch is in Hitler’s views regarding the United States. In Mein Kampf, Hitler declared that Germany’s most dangerous opponent on the international scene was the Soviet Union. In Zweites Buch, Hitler declared that for immediate purposes, the Soviet Union was still the most dangerous opponent, but that in the long-term, the most dangerous potential opponent was the United States. Beyond that, Hitler’s views on the United States changed dramatically between 1924 and 1928.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler rarely mentioned the United States and when he did, it was in a tone of deep contempt. In Mein Kampf, Hitler portrayed the United States as a “racially degenerate” society on its way to self-oblivion. By contrast, in Zweites Buch, Hitler portrayed the U.S. as a dynamic, “racially successful” society that practiced eugenics and segregation and followed what Hitler considered to be a wise policy of excluding “racially degenerate” immigration from eastern and southern Europe. What promoted the change in Hitler's views between 1924 and 1928 is not known. By 1928, Hitler seems to have heard about the massive industrial wealth of the U.S., the Immigration Act of 1924, segregation and the fact that several American states had eugenics boards to sterilize people who were considered mentally defective, and was favorably impressed. Hitler proclaimed his admiration for these sorts of policies and expressed his wish that Germany would do similar things, though on a much greater scale.

Of all Germany’s potential enemies, Hitler ranked the United States as the most dangerous. By contrast, Hitler saw the United Kingdom as a fellow “Aryan” power that in exchange for Germany's renunciation of naval and colonial ambitions would ally itself with Germany. France in Hitler’s opinion, was rapidly “Negroizing” itself. In regards to the Soviet Union, Hitler dismissed the Russian people as being Slavic Untermensch (sub-humans) incapable of any sort of intelligent thought. Hitler consequently believed that the Russian people were ruled over by what he regarded as a gang of bloodthirsty but inept Jewish revolutionaries. By contrast, the majority of Americans were in Hitler’s view “Aryans”, albeit Aryans ruled by what Hitler saw as a Jewish plutocracy. In Hitler’s point of view, the combination of “Aryan” might coupled with “Jewish rule” was what made the U.S. so dangerous.

Only two copies of the original 200 page manuscript were made, and only one of these copies has ever been made public. Zweites Buch was not published in 1928 as Mein Kampf was not selling well, and Hitler's publisher informed him that having two books out would depress sales even further. By the time Mein Kampf started to sell well after the September 1930 Reichstag elections, Hitler decided that Zweites Buch revealed too much of his foreign policy goals. Kept strictly secret under Hitler's orders, the document was placed in a safe inside an air raid shelter in 1935 where it remained until its discovery by an American officer in 1945. The authenticity of the book was verified by Josef Berg, a former employee of the Nazi publishing house Eher Verlag and Telford Taylor, the former Brigadier General U.S.A.R. and Chief Counsel at the Nuremberg war-crimes trials. The book was neither edited nor published during the Nazi Germany era and remains known as Zweites Buch translated as "Second Book". The Zweites Buch was first discovered in the Nazi archives being held in the United States by the German-born Jewish American historian Gerhard Weinberg in 1958. Unable to find an American publisher, Weinberg turned to his Jewish mentor Hans Rothfels and his associate Martin Broszat at the Institute of Contemporary History in Munich, who published Zweites Buch in 1961 in German. Rothfels was immensely pleased by his protégé’s discovery and wrote the foreword to the 1961 edition. A pirated edition was translated into English and published in New York in 1962. The first authoritative English edition was not published until 2003 as Hitler's Second Book: The Unpublished Sequel to Mein Kampf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

yes, and he said that we were only growing stronger and stronger by the day and that he would have to invade as soon as possible or it would be impossible to defeat us.


Also, I am LOL'ing that you would lament my referring to a book I heard about on the history channel as not being bibliography worthy material, and you liberally use wikipedia.

 

[Spartacus]

as I read that and was trying to be objective
I came away with the idea that hitler was concerned about an ultimate confrontation between greater germany and her allies and the USA

not unreasonable

A Jewish "scholar" would find a lot of material in it to be able to
"ha! Hitler wanted to invade the USA"
tkae over the world etc, evil, etc

I'll comment later on some of hitler's observations and how they "pan out" today
have to take a $47000 deposit to the bank before 2

 

[Spartacus]

yes, and he said that we were only growing stronger and stronger by the day and that he would have to invade as soon as possible or it would be impossible to defeat us.


Also, I am LOL'ing that you would lament my referring to a book I heard about on the history channel as not being bibliography worthy material, and you liberally use wikipedia.

wikopedia is good as the narratives are more "reader friendly" and thus work well to cut and paste for the casual discussion board reader
the antention spans here are short and maybe half a dozen will even read that short wiko entry
I'm not a good typist so I can't ramble on myself w/o it being a bitch

but thanks for the mention as I seriously didn't know about the book
and I'm fairly sure javaguru will find it interesting

so far I find Hitler quite prescient in his views
forecasting the big showdown in 1980 for example
about the time when it was seriously possible for a warsaw pact/USSR invasion of western europe

 

[heatherrae]

wikopedia is good as the narratives are more "reader friendly" and thus work well to cut and paste for the casual discussion board reader
the antention spans here are short and maybe half a dozen will even read that short wiko entry
I'm not a good typist so I can't ramble on myself w/o it being a bitch

but thanks for the mention as I seriously didn't know about the book
and I'm fairly sure javaguru will find it interesting

so far I find Hitler quite prescient in his views
forecasting the big showdown in 1980 for example
about the time when it was seriously possible for a warsaw pact/USSR invasion of western europe

Hitler had a lot of ideas that were so bizarre as to be bordering on delusional. He incorporated lots of mysticism of the time into his thinking. Unfortunately for the jews there was a weird mysticism floating about at the time that he latched onto that was highly anti-semetic. He certainly was not a military strategist that you make him out to be. He lead his country into foreseeable destruction.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Well, thank you for the insults. Who knew that Hitler would incite such rousing ferver in your little heart...lol. Yes, I'm an educated adult who is aware that he built nice roads and was an architecture nut. In the end, however, he destroyed the country and Germans to this day are ashamed of his reign of terror. Giving him any credit as a great leader is ridiculous. He was a butcher and a monster.

You completely missed my point. My "insults" as you call them are apparently justified, as I sense an impossibility a mental/emotional roadblock in your train of thought towards learning something new.

The winners of war write its history. Very few people give a damn or take a risk in learning the other side of the tale as well.

 

[Spartacus]

LOL @ France in Hitler’s opinion, was rapidly “Negroizing” itself.

 

[Spartacus]

he was right about that

 

[heatherrae]

You completely missed my point. My "insults" as you call them are apparently justified, as I sense an impossibility a mental/emotional roadblock in your train of thought towards learning something new.

The winners of war write its history. Very few people give a damn or take a risk in learning the other side of the tale as well.

While that may be true, I think that it hardly debatable that Germany was far worse off after Hitler than before and that the holocaust did, in fact, occur.

If I were a man making the same arguments would you be so quick to dismiss my opinions on the matter as "emotional." I doubt it.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Gerhard Weinberg is Jewish
I hardly expect a balanced and non-biased assessment of adolf from a Jew
not gonna happen

there are several well written books on hitler that are quite thick too
some one hour TV segment is not going to give you any decent understanding

would you write a paper and include a TV program in your bibliography?

I'm not glorifying hitler
I'm just trying to understand him from a dispassionate angle
I'm more into the german military
and it's my opinion that if hitler and his henchmen never appeared on the scene

Germany would have re-armed regardless and still have fought a war with the USSR
Stalin's intentions are well documented
he's the one who really could be said to desire world domination

Apparently when asked why he killed 5 million + of his peasants in the east, he was quoted as replying, "...Boys will be boys." I'll have to look into that, but yeah, you don't hear much of his atrocities.

 

[javaguru]

Apparently when asked why he killed 5 million + of his peasants in the east, he was quoted as replying, "...Boys will be boys." I'll have to look into that, but yeah, you don't hear much of his atrocities.

I heard that quote from Stalin came when FDR or Churchill asked Stalin about the intelligence relating to the Soviet Army raping its way through Eastern Europe and Germany. I'm not sure though....

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Hitler had a lot of ideas that were so bizarre as to be bordering on delusional. He incorporated lots of mysticism of the time into his thinking. Unfortunately for the jews there was a weird mysticism floating about at the time that he latched onto that was highly anti-semetic. He certainly was not a military strategist that you make him out to be. He lead his country into foreseeable destruction.

It was heading there regardless. His anti-semitism was gradually developed through real-world observation and interaction with Jews. Chalking them up to mysticism would be sensational at best. Also, Germany was already economically infested with communism before Hitler took power, so you would've been hard pressed to find a real German at the time who regretted his decision to fight it.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

While that may be true, I think that it hardly debatable that Germany was far worse off after Hitler than before and that the holocaust did, in fact, occur.

If I were a man making the same arguments would you be so quick to dismiss my opinions on the matter as "emotional." I doubt it.

As a matter of fact, yes I would have, because most people regardless of gender seem to react the same way to such a sensitive subject. I know I probably would have years ago too when I didn't know or care to know more than any other average joe on the subject.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I heard that quote from Stalin came when FDR or Churchill asked Stalin about the intelligence relating to the Soviet Army raping its way through Eastern Europe and Germany. I'm not sure though....

Could've been.

 

[javaguru]

It was heading there regardless. His anti-semitism was gradually developed through real-world observation and interaction with Jews. Chalking them up to mysticism would be sensational at best. Also, Germany was already economically infested with communism when before Hitler took power, so you would've been hard pressed to find a real German at the time who regretted his decision to fight it.

Many people haven't read anything about Germany between the wars. The Jews were blamed for the loss of WWI, a Jewish fifth column supposedly stabbed Germany in the back by inciting the German Revolution and forced the armistice.It certainly wasn't the first or last time the Jews have been used as scapegoats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchstosslegende
"The Dolchstosslegende (German: Dolchstoßlegende, literally "Dagger stab legend" often translated into English as "stab-in-the-back myth") refers to a social myth and persecution-propaganda theory popular in Germany in the period after World War I through World War II. It attributed Germany's defeat to a number of domestic factors instead of failed militarist geostrategy. Most notably, the theory proclaimed that the public had failed to respond to its "patriotic calling" at the most crucial of times and some had even intentionally "sabotaged the war effort."

The legend echoed the epic poem Nibelungenlied in which the dragon-slaying hero Siegfried is stabbed in the back by Hagen von Tronje. Der Dolchstoss is cited as an important factor in Adolf Hitler's later rise to power, as the Nazi Party grew its original political base largely from embittered WWI veterans, and those who were sympathetic to the Dolchstoss interpretation of Germany's then-recent history."

Look up the Dreyfuss affair in France.

Most don't understand the amount of social upheaval in Germany after WWI and before Hitler came to power. Communists and Nazis were killing each other in the streets.

 

[javaguru]

The Dreyfus Affair,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_Affair

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

The Dreyfus Affair,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_Affair

Thanks I'll definitely check it out. Although I can't help but come to the conclusion that wiki, while certainly good for source material and quick reference, has a regulatory feel to it with politically correct bias that tampers with authenticity and historical accuracy. I've seen pages change like the weather here in MI; some disappearing altogether. Makes a person wonder sometimes. Regardless, there still is a wealth of information on there, independent of how truthful it ultimately is.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

More on Hitler's second book-

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/hitlers-second-book-382090.html

Many of these "evil white supremacist" folk seem to think it a better picture into the mind's eye of Hitler himself.

 

[domoljub]

the germans encountered similar problems as us in Iraq
they blitzed through yugoslavia so fast and capitulated the govt that they didn't "get" enough time to really destroy the army in the field
and these unkilled men would eventually rise up and form a nasty partisan bunch under Tito
so nasty that even the soviets left Tito to himself

same as our experiences in Iraq
we sliced through saddams defenses the took out baghdad in what 3 weeks
most of the Iraqi army ran away

only for many to reappear with their booby trap war
it's not even much of a war per se
in history and measured against other wars/periods

Iraq is not a war,not even a guerilla war
it's a chciken shit booby trap and blow yourself up affair

no one fought for jugoslavia in any war, ever. that jugoslavia that capitulated to hitler was a forced confederration the treaty of versaille was where it all happened. serbia backed by its old friends dating to the times of nobility was awarded the helm. croatia and slovenia and herceg bosna fought valiantly with the germans and as the treaty of versaille was intended to do to all those alligned with germany, they were punished.

partisans were not a force untill allied air drops and support in every which way was given by the british and the americans. partisans were made up in the early periods of the war almost exclusivly of serbs that were upset at the retribution directed to them by slovenians, croats of catholic and muslim faith. with more and more support of the allies in the region, and with the allocation of the croatian coast to the itallians alot of people realized that the best bet to live through everything was to join the partizans.

the partizans were a bunch of bush dwellers, never without the help of the allies would they have stood up to the ustase. i have never seen one historical source to say different .

stalin did not leave the "jugoslavs" to themselves, the split between stalin and tito happened in 1948, when jugoslavia was kicked out of the cominform, well after the end of ww2. i hate tito with a passion, but one thing i admire is he wasnt stalins bitch like the rest of communist occupied europe .

 

[javaguru]

Thanks I'll definitely check it out. Although I can't help but come to the conclusion that wiki, while certainly good for source material and quick reference, has a regulatory feel to it with politically correct bias that tampers with authenticity and historical accuracy. I've seen pages change like the weather here in MI; some disappearing altogether. Makes a person wonder sometimes. Regardless, there still is a wealth of information on there, independent of how truthful it ultimately is.

That's why I always use it as a reference for things I already know about. It's just easier than wasting 10-20 minutes typing essentially what I already would have essentially written myself. I've seen some very poorly written articles. Even texts used in college level have a certain bias when it comes to covering subject matter. American and Japanese racism are not covered at all or simply a footnote in most 100-200 level history courses.
I had to take a WWII class before it was covered to any degree, this was one of our texts;
http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728?tag=dogpile-20

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

That's why I always use it as a reference for things I already know about. It's just easier than wasting 10-20 minutes typing essentially what I already would have essentially written myself. I've seen some very poorly written articles. Even texts used in college level have a certain bias when it comes to covering subject matter. American and Japanese racism are not covered at all or simply a footnote in most 100-200 level history courses.
I had to take a WWII class before it was covered to any degree, this was one of our texts;
http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728?tag=dogpile-20

Have you seen Flags of Our Fathers or Letters from Iwo Jima? I usually like Eastwood's stuff. Want to see his take on war in the Pacific but have boycotted movie renting. It seems lately I'm better off buying a movie if I want to get through it without it skipping or freezing because some cretin smudged/scratched it up.

 

[javaguru]

Have you seen Flags of Our Fathers or Letters from Iwo Jima? I usually like Eastwood's stuff. Want to see his take on war in the Pacific but have boycotted movie renting. It seems lately I'm better off buying a movie if I want to get through it without it skipping or freezing because some cretin smudged/scratched it up.

You can pass on Flags if you want the Japanese perspective.I've wanted to rent letters myself. I've always enjoyed the "letters" type documentaries.

 

[Spartacus]

I heard that quote from Stalin came when FDR or Churchill asked Stalin about the intelligence relating to the Soviet Army raping its way through Eastern Europe and Germany. I'm not sure though....

read Antony Beever's "Fall of Berlin"

horrifying
one of the reasons the Germans fought so tenaciously and ferious in Berlin was they could hear the screams from the gang rapes across the street etc.

 

[javaguru]

read Antony Beever's "Fall of Berlin"

horrifying
one of the reasons the Germans fought so tenaciously and ferious in Berlin was they could hear the screams from the gang rapes across the street etc.

After the fact, the NKVD went by their SOP in the occupied territories after the war was over. Countless German and Eastern Europeans died at the hands of Stalin just like they carried out their occupation of their Polish territories in 1940.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

[heatherrae]

As a matter of fact, yes I would have, because most people regardless of gender seem to react the same way to such a sensitive subject. I know I probably would have years ago too when I didn't know or care to know more than any other average joe on the subject.

My aren't you an elitist to assume yourself so much better educated than me.

 

[Spartacus]

Damn close only counts in horse shoes. He fucked everything up worse for them. Plus, he butchered millions of people in horrific ways. I can't believe people are arguing his merits.

Shall we discuss that Charles Manson planted some pretty nice veggie gardens, too?

I'm not glorifying Hitler
I'm sort of defending some aspects of him and his goals
and attempting to offer a more non-biased,non-passionate assessment of his existence

the world is full of Hitlers big and small
and it's sort of useful to understand the mindset

 

[Spartacus]

While that may be true, I think that it hardly debatable that Germany was far worse off after Hitler than before and that the holocaust did, in fact, occur.

If I were a man making the same arguments would you be so quick to dismiss my opinions on the matter as "emotional." I doubt it.

reunified Germany's doing pretty damn good these days
especially when compared against the victors the USSR

hell they're back on top of the medals chart for the winter olympics

seig heil!

 

[Spartacus]

Germany needs to reunify with France
yesterday

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

My aren't you an elitist to assume yourself so much better educated than me.

On certain subjects, sure. But you'd blow me out of the water I suppose if I took any to court.

 

[heatherrae]

reunified Germany's doing pretty damn good these days
especially when compared against the victors the USSR

hell they're back on top of the medals chart for the winter olympics

seig heil!

lol...hardly attributable to Hitler.


However, continue on with the dispassionate analysis. I just think it is funny when people try to make a stretch in the opposite direction just in order shun popular opinion for the sake a dispassionate member of the intelligensia.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

lol...hardly attributable to Hitler.


However, continue on with the dispassionate analysis. I just think it is funny when people try to make a stretch in the opposite direction just in order shun popular opinion for the sake a dispassionate member of the intelligensia.

Popular opinion could hardly be called intelligent.

 

[heatherrae]

Popular opinion could hardly be called intelligent.

Really? You don't think popular opinion is ever correct?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Really? You don't think popular opinion is ever correct?

I never said never. In politics especially, sheer numbers don't always make a right a wrong though, and vice versa.

 

[heatherrae]

I never said never. In politics especially, sheer numbers don't always make a right a wrong though, and vice versa.

So, why are we arguing that point, then?

lol.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

So, why are we arguing that point, then?

lol.

Who's arguing? We simply each gave our opinions. We could turn it into an argument if you'd like but I doubt much would be accomplished, since politics is largely, well, opinions.

 

[heatherrae]

Who's arguing? We simply each gave our opinions. We could turn it into an argument if you'd like but I doubt much would be accomplished, since politics is largely, well, opinions.

I meant arguing as in debating. Damn, you are annoying today. lol. ;-)

Okay, you guys go on back to your Hitler love fest.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I meant arguing as in debating. Damn, you are annoying today. lol. ;-)

Okay, you guys go on back to your Hitler love fest.

Sig Heil Der Fuhrer.

 

[redguru]

Sig Heil Der Fuhrer.

Chuj ci w dupe

 

[redguru]

Lets just say that most of us Poles don't hold lofty regards for der Fuhrer.

 

[Gambino]

Lets just say that most of us Poles don't hold lofty regards for der Fuhrer.

it was nice of the americans to let russia have poland

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Chuj ci w dupe

What does the prefix of your user title refer to? If I myself were a Pole I'd be more pissed at the Soviets.


Also could you teach me some more Polish curse words? I work with some, so they'd probably be impressed.

 

[Spartacus]

Lets just say that most of us Poles don't hold lofty regards for der Fuhrer.

you should know the Nazis and the Soviets carved up Poland in 1939

why didn't the British and France declare war on the USSR over the sovereignity of Poland too?

smells like politics
and WWI beefs

 

[Spartacus]

and Stalin halted the Red Army's advance on Poland in 1944 so the Nazi's could finish off the Warsaw ghetto

 

[Spartacus]

AT THE OUTBREAK of World War Two there were three million Jews in Poland. Three to four hundred thousand lived in Warsaw – one third of the city’s population. Although Jews had lived in Poland since 1200, there was a long history of anti-Semitism and discrimination, which increased during the 1930s. Most lived in poverty, working in small family workshops.

The Nazis invaded Poland on 1 September 1939, a week after the Stalin-Hitler pact was signed. Sixteen days later Stalin ordered the Soviet army to invade. By 1 October Warsaw had fallen to the German army. Within days separate bread queues were established for Jews and Poles. The Nazis built on pre-existing divisions and prejudice to keep the population divided. Himmler later wrote to Hitler "… we have the greatest interest in not uniting the population of the East but, on the contrary, in dividing it into as many parts and splinters as possible". (25 May 1940)

Most leading public figures left Poland as war broke out. A state of panic and chaos developed among the population left behind. There were immediate cruel and random acts of terror as Jewish people were beaten, rounded up for forced labour, and instructed to hand over all valuables. From November, all Jews over ten years old had to wear the Star of David on armbands.

It helped inspire the magnificent workers’ uprising throughout Warsaw in August 1944, which took place as the Soviet army was within ten kilometres of the city. But, instead of moving in as expected, the Soviet forces retreated under Stalin’s orders. He was fearful that any independent workers’ action might encourage Russian workers to move against the bureaucratic elite he represented. As a result, the Nazis regrouped, massacred 200,000 people and razed the city to the ground.

Only 200 Warsaw Jews survived until the end of the war. But the heroism of the ghetto uprising remains an inspiration to socialists. It showed that, no matter how desperate the circumstances, struggle is possible. The socialist youth organisations took the lead in convincing Jews that resistance was possible. Their determination reinforced the change from the earlier moods of panic and fatalism.

But it also appeared to show that Jews could only rely on themselves. They had not received significant help from the Polish working class, and none from Western Allied or Soviet forces. After the war this mood was used to justify the formation of Israel and its armed struggle. "For centuries, the Jews had been persecuted, driven from country to country in search of a home, herded into ghettos and denied the rights of citizens. They had been forced to fight for their very existence… But they won the victory. With the dead fell the ghetto walls, and in their place today stands the state of Israel". (M Barkai, The Ghetto Fighters, 1962)

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Ok, I'm not going to sound like a nice guy here, and am bound to be called every bad name in the book, but why couldn't "the Jews" (blanket statement/yes there are good exceptions as with any group) ever find themselves a home? They have proven themselves over the centuries to be exceptionally resourceful, yet they consistently migrate from land to land intruding upon already established and agreed upon blueprints of societal norms, cultures, and values. I doubt all the dozens of countries they've been thrown out of over the centuries/millennia were plain "evil" and "hateful", picking on the "poor, innocent Jew" (which is how they are always portrayed) trying to make a life for him/herself.

Does anyone with a rational thought process really think this is how all of these places would have treated an outsider trying to assimilate into another already established and agreed upon blueprint of societal norms, cultures, and values?

No, there is a much more logical reason than that. That reason is because Jews (again, blanket statement; there are always exceptions, but this however happens to be the norm) have an innate habit of trying to internally change the workings of whatever society they arrive at to their own blueprint, thus causing disruption and getting them subsequently kicked out by whatever method that society deemed "appropriate".

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/wolzek/HistoryofOurWorld.html


"...With the dead fell the ghetto walls, and in their place today stands the state of Israel."

And if the above statement is true, it's been causing problems for U.S. as well as the Jews themselves still ever since.

Again, I'm sure to many I sound like an anti-semite, white supremacist, hate-filled bigot, yada yada, etc. but it really gets old having logical, real world explanations for many of these issues dismissed as trash and replaced by attacks and emotional hysteria of being nothing but a "hate monger".

Virtually everyone is afraid to criticize a Jew or more daringly, the Jewish people (read: The Holocaust) and to no surprise, as people who have have lost friends, family, employment, property, freedom, etc. not to mention having their opinions ridiculed and ultimately silenced. Now, one must ask oneself: what kind of an opinion does it take that so much drastic action is demanded to be taken against it?

Sooner or later the Jewish population as a whole needs to start owning up to their own flaws like everyone else has been expected to, especially "whitey."

 

[Spartacus]

Germany needs to reunify with France

 

[javaguru]

WTF????

 

[milo hobgoblin]

Spartans were badass but they were beaten pretty badly by the Thebans in the battle of Leuctra.

One the Theban leader (Epaminonda) figured out the tactics of the Spartan phalanx.. he obliterated them.

After this battle.. the Spartans were so depleted in men and pride they slowly decling into a second rate state in the greek empire.


What a lot of people dont realize is that while the spartans were badass... actual "Spartans" were few in number and relied HEAVILY upon their Helot slaves (whom they mistreated for hundreds of years).. during their declin they Helots regularly revolted and were evenutally set free by the Thebans.

The Spartans really fucked themseleves in the end.. their stubborness and elititst attitude really became their downfall.. actual citizens numbered less than a 1000 by the end of their reign.

 

[javaguru]

Spartans were badass but they were beaten pretty badly by the Thebans in the battle of Leuctra.

One the Theban leader (Epaminonda) figured out the tactics of the Spartan phalanx.. he obliterated them.

After this battle.. the Spartans were so depleted in men and pride they slowly decling into a second rate state in the greek empire.


What a lot of people dont realize is that while the spartans were badass... actual "Spartans" were few in number and relied HEAVILY upon their Helot slaves (whom they mistreated for hundreds of years).. during their declin they Helots regularly revolted and were evenutally set free by the Thebans.

The Spartans really fucked themseleves in the end.. their stubborness and elititst attitude really became their downfall.. actual citizens numbered less than a 1000 by the end of their reign.

They surrendered to Athenians.......

 

[javaguru]

Ahhh yes it was Mussolini and Greece. Thanks bro.

pwned by the Balkans in two world wars.....

 

[javaguru]

Another Fallschirmjäger video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVDYC98LJAY

I still like this one for impact.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hURjXxbyQ9k

 

[javaguru]

The Conquest of Malaya and Singapore was a major embarrassment for the British army.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JHySVZstIs


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Singapore
"The Battle of Singapore was fought in the South-East Asian theatre of World War II when the Empire of Japan invaded the Allied stronghold of Singapore. The fighting in Singapore lasted from February 7, 1942 to February 15, 1942.

It resulted in the fall of Singapore — the major British military base in South East Asia — to the Japanese and the largest surrender of British-led military personnel in history. About 80,000 Indian Empire, Australian and British troops became prisoners of war, joining 50,000 taken by the Japanese in the Malayan campaign.

The predominantly ethnic Chinese people of Singapore had long provided material support to China in its war with Japan. This was one of the motivations for the Japanese invasion of Singapore and the later suffering and atrocities inflicted by the Japanese occupation."

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

pwned by the Balkans in two world wars.....

At least Italian and Greek chics are hot, so that softens the blow a little.

 

[Spartacus]

The Conquest of Malaya and Singapore was a major embarrassment for the British army.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JHySVZstIs


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Singapore
"The Battle of Singapore was fought in the South-East Asian theatre of World War II when the Empire of Japan invaded the Allied stronghold of Singapore. The fighting in Singapore lasted from February 7, 1942 to February 15, 1942.

It resulted in the fall of Singapore — the major British military base in South East Asia — to the Japanese and the largest surrender of British-led military personnel in history. About 80,000 Indian Empire, Australian and British troops became prisoners of war, joining 50,000 taken by the Japanese in the Malayan campaign.

The predominantly ethnic Chinese people of Singapore had long provided material support to China in its war with Japan. This was one of the motivations for the Japanese invasion of Singapore and the later suffering and atrocities inflicted by the Japanese occupation."

I have a mint copy of "malaya and burma" produced by a japanese wargame company in the 80s
very good graphics and 22 pages of "dense english rules"
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/71800

 

[Spartacus]

Two separate games in one box. One a game on the Malaya Campaign in 1941-1942 and the other on the Japanese invasion of Burma. There are "rough" linking rules to join the two scenarios.

Features 4 hard backed maps and 2 paper maps for air combat, 600 counters and 22 pages of dense English rules.

Scale is 2-11 days a turn, 5km-43 km a hex (depending on the scenario played) and units are primarily regiments and brigades.

 

[javaguru]

Two separate games in one box. One a game on the Malaya Campaign in 1941-1942 and the other on the Japanese invasion of Burma. There are "rough" linking rules to join the two scenarios.

Features 4 hard backed maps and 2 paper maps for air combat, 600 counters and 22 pages of dense English rules.

Scale is 2-11 days a turn, 5km-43 km a hex (depending on the scenario played) and units are primarily regiments and brigades.

I've always preferred to the games with detailed rules.

 

[Phaded]

davids mighty men would fuck up anyone

 

[javaguru]

davids mighty men would fuck up anyone

Huh??? Harry Potter and his crew would pwn them...

 

[Spartacus]

I've always preferred to the games with detailed rules.

had a hard time as a teen finding anyone to play these
ended up in college "conscripting" a bunch and turning them on to high level strategy games
even created a club
the conflict simulation society
smoked a lot of pot too

I still remember one normandy game against one of my best friends and a solid opponent
he was western allies and I was krauts of course

I had skillfully organized a late june counterattack against the mulberry hex and my SS armor was going to wipe out the mulberry,and thus the entire allied beachhead(no supplies when I have panzers in the mulberry you know)

only die roll that could save the mulberry was a 1 on a d6
and I fuckin' rolled a one

fuck,fuck fuck
divisional level game and I had 4 ss divisions in on the attack
and panzer lehr too
all the tough boyz(leibstandarte,das reich,hitler jugend and the gotz von berlinchen)

fuckin' 1

 

[javaguru]

had a hard time as a teen finding anyone to play these
ended up in college "conscripting" a bunch and turning them on to high level strategy games
even created a club
the conflict simulation society
smoked a lot of pot too

I still remember one normandy game against one of my best friends and a solid opponent
he was western allies and I was krauts of course

I had skillfully organized a late june counterattack against the mulberry hex and my SS armor was going to wipe out the mulberry,and thus the entire allied beachhead(no supplies when I have panzers in the mulberry you know)

only die roll that could save the mulberry was a 1 on a d6
and I fuckin' rolled a one

fuck,fuck fuck
divisional level game and I had 4 ss divisions in on the attack
and panzer lehr too
all the tough boyz(leibstandarte,das reich,hitler jugend and the gotz von berlinchen)

fuckin' 1

We used to play WIF 5 on every Christmas break in college. Our one friend ALWAYS played Germany, he had worn the Manstein HQ counter down to the cardboard because he liked to pick it up when he thought about his next move/attack.

 

[Spartacus]

bunch guys had gathered around to see that die roll
they wanted me to take the mulberry
no one had done that before

 

[Phaded]

Huh??? Harry Potter and his crew would pwn them...

i believe in the bible.. hence davids mighty men.. i dont believe in harry potter

 

[javaguru]

i believe in the bible.. hence davids mighty men.. i dont believe in harry potter

The whole point was that we are discussing historical armies, not fictional ones.

 

[Phaded]

The whole point was that we are discussing historical armies, not fictional ones.

so the bible is fictional? wow have fun in hell.

 

[jestro]

The whole point was that we are discussing historical armies, not fictional ones.

Ziiinnngggaaaaa!

 

[javaguru]

so the bible is fictional? wow have fun in hell.

You just made my point.....

You really believe the earth is no more than 6k years old, the great flood and the list goes on....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hftbu34X08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnDzI-Qncdc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M497lpW5N9k

 

[javaguru]

so the bible is fictional? wow have fun in hell.

You can argue with me in the thread I created, don't muddy the historical argument with delusion.

 

[Phaded]

dont call the bible delusion or ill fuck you up..

 

[Gambino]

dont call the bible delusion or ill fuck you up..

gotta love christian open mindedness

 

[javaguru]

dont call the bible delusion or ill fuck you up..

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."-Friedrich Nietzsche

I'll pm you my address if you want to fly here and fight me.

 

[Phaded]

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."-Friedrich Nietzsche

I'll pm you my address if you want to fly here and fight me.

nah i dont have a problem with you..

 

[Spartacus]

We used to play WIF 5 on every Christmas break in college. Our one friend ALWAYS played Germany, he had worn the Manstein HQ counter down to the cardboard because he liked to pick it up when he thought about his next move/attack.

Last Victory in Russia
The SS-Panzerkorps and Manstein's Kharkov Counteroffensive - February-March 1943

This book is the first detailed and comprehensive account of the Kharkov counteroffensive, the operations of the SS divisions and the supporting actions of Armeeabteilung Fretter-Pico and 1. Panzerarmee, and is supported by over 210 photographs and maps. By the end of January of 1943, Hitler's armies had been dealt a series of defeats by the Russians, beginning with the disaster at Stalingrad. Successive Soviet offensives had destroyed the German 6. Armee and annihilated the armies of Germany's Axis allies, Italy, Rumania and Hungary. Germany teetered on the brink of defeat in World War II because the Soviet advance threatened to drive to the Dnepr River and encircle the remaining Germans armies in southern Russia. Stalin and the Russian high command believed that the war could be won with just one more great effort. Accordingly, they planned and launched two offensives, designated Operations "Star" and "Gallop." The focal points of the two offensives included the recapture of Kharkov, the industrial heart of the Ukraine and the destruction of Armeeabteilung Hollidt, 4. Panzerarmee and 2. Armee. Feldmarschall Erich von Manstein entered the picture in late 1942 when he was appointed commander of Heeresgruppe Don. Beginning in February he engineered a remarkable operation that changed the course of the war in Russia. Manstein's counteroffensive destroyed or severely damaged four Russian armies and regained much of the territory lost in January. The troops that played the most important role in the offensive were three divisions of the Waffen-SS. "Leibstandarte," "Das Reich" and "Totenkopf" were combined for the first time into a corps, which was commanded by SS-Obergruppenfhrer Paul Hausser, the senior commander of the Waffen-SS. "Leibstandarte" and "Das Reich" participated in the defense of Kharkov, along with the elite Army division "Grossdeutschland" supported by three weak infantry divisions. This handful of divisions was attacked by four Soviet armies, but under command of Armeeabteilung Lanz, was able to hold the city for two weeks. On 14 February, 1943 the SS-Panzerkorps and the rest of Armeeabteilung Lanz withdrew from Kharkov under disputed circumstances that involved Hausser and his violation of a direct order from Hitler. Almost exactly a month later, the Germans had recaptured Kharkov and destroyed or crippled the four Soviet armies that had driven them out of the city in February. The divisions that played the key role in Manstein's counteroffensive were the three divisions of the Waffen-SS. While "Leibstandarte" defended the supply base of the SS-Panzerkorps from the entire Soviet 3rd Tank Army, "Das Reich" and "Totenkopf" conducted a complex series of operations that began with a 100 kilometer thrust to the south which saved the Dnepr bridges, thus securing supply lines for the armies of Heeresgruppe Don/Sd. Subsequent operations by the SS divisions drove the Russians away from the rail net south of Kharkov and wrested Kharkov from the Russians once again. During the recapture of the city, there was controversy regarding Hausser's command decisions. Hausser has been accused of disregarding his instructions from superior officers and throwing his divisions into costly combat in the city for reasons of personal and SS prestige, in order to regain Hitler's favor. This study has found that the records of the SS-Panzerkorps and 4. Panzerarmee provide a different explanation for Hausser's actions. Size: 8.5"x11", over 210b/w photos, 300 pages. (SCH) Price - $59.95

http://stevenbaffa.tripod.com/bluemaxmilitaria/id26.html

 

[Spartacus]

known as manstein's "backhand blow"

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

dont call the bible delusion or ill fuck you up..

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/7422875-post31.html

What about the ten commandments (thous shall not steal, etc)?

 

[Spartacus]

Babarossa day

 

[javaguru]

Operation Barbarossa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBzxNZVy028

 

[Spartacus]

 

[Spartacus]

 

[javaguru]

I don't think the genres connect.

 

[Spartacus]

I don't think the genres connect.

same foliage

 

[javaguru]

same foliage

For a second I thought you were voting for the Amazons...

 

[redsamurai]

dont call the bible delusion or ill fuck you up..

so how mad would you be if I suggested that Paul Reubens is really an immortal who's been here for thousands of years and wrote the bible in his spare time while coming up with the idea for pee wee's playhouse?

 

[foreigngirl]

no one fought for jugoslavia in any war, ever. that jugoslavia that capitulated to hitler was a forced confederration the treaty of versaille was where it all happened. serbia backed by its old friends dating to the times of nobility was awarded the helm. croatia and slovenia and herceg bosna fought valiantly with the germans and as the treaty of versaille was intended to do to all those alligned with germany, they were punished.

partisans were not a force untill allied air drops and support in every which way was given by the british and the americans. partisans were made up in the early periods of the war almost exclusivly of serbs that were upset at the retribution directed to them by slovenians, croats of catholic and muslim faith. with more and more support of the allies in the region, and with the allocation of the croatian coast to the itallians alot of people realized that the best bet to live through everything was to join the partizans.

the partizans were a bunch of bush dwellers, never without the help of the allies would they have stood up to the ustase. i have never seen one historical source to say different .

stalin did not leave the "jugoslavs" to themselves, the split between stalin and tito happened in 1948, when jugoslavia was kicked out of the cominform, well after the end of ww2. i hate tito with a passion, but one thing i admire is he wasnt stalins bitch like the rest of communist occupied europe .

I never understood why the Croats always hated Tito. Wasnt he one of your people? Or maybe the rumors about him not being Croatian are true?

Anyways, I was born and raised in Tito's Yugoslavia and it was great! People had jobs, good pay, people could buy cars and condos and build houses without any financial problems; our passport was just as the US one - we could go anywhere in the world without visas required; our army was the 7th world power; our health system was free etc. He did send people at Goli Otok, that was his dark side, but the rest of us lived a life that was not existing even in USA.

Now, I AM a little bitter at him. Macedonian soldiers at WWII wanted to go to the Southern Front, to liberate the part of our country that was given to Greece after the Balkan Wars and they were not allowed to by Tito. They were sent to the Srem Front instead. After the war was done, more cover ups were made too. Macedonia was not suppose to stay in Yugoslavia, nobody helped us get our parts from Greece and Bulgaria and we were forever known as Titos creation, which hurts a lot. Our ancestral connections with ancient macedonians were erased, because the history books were made the way to teach us that all of us in Yugoslavia were Slavic people - Southern Slavic Yugoslavians.....c'mon....

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I never understood why the Croats always hated Tito. Wasnt he one of your people? Or maybe the rumors about him not being Croatian are true?

Anyways, I was born and raised in Tito's Yugoslavia and it was great! People had jobs, good pay, people could buy cars and condos and build houses without any financial problems; our passport was just as the US one - we could go anywhere in the world without visas required; our army was the 7th world power; our health system was free etc. He did send people at Goli Otok, that was his dark side, but the rest of us lived a life that was not existing even in USA.

Now, I AM a little bitter at him. Macedonian soldiers at WWII wanted to go to the Southern Front, to liberate the part of our country that was given to Greece after the Balkan Wars and they were not allowed to by Tito. They were sent to the Srem Front instead. After the war was done, more cover ups were made too. Macedonia was not suppose to stay in Yugoslavia, nobody helped us get our parts from Greece and Bulgaria and we were forever known as Titos creation, which hurts a lot. Our ancestral connections with ancient macedonians were erased, because the history books were made the way to teach us that all of us in Yugoslavia were Slavic people - Southern Slavic Yugoslavians.....c'mon....

Yeah truth takes second place to politically correctness.
"...Buh buh but in 9th grade history class I lear..."

 

[foreigngirl]

Yeah truth takes second place to politically correctness.
"...Buh buh but in 9th grade history class I lear..."

its always like that. And go now and try to convince the macedonians that were raised like that and studied "Tito's" history that it wasnt so.

You would expect that history books for schools are not suppose to be written with a certain point of view, but them too are flawed cuz at the end even the ones that wrote them are human

 

[Spartacus]

90% of americans can't even find the "balkans" on the map

 

[javaguru]

90% of americans can't even find the "balkans" on the map

In high school, there were three kids in my American History class that missed finding the US on a world map.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Mosy guys would like to lead this army.




Except for javaguru.

 

[Testosterone boy]

 

[Testosterone boy]

These are warriors to fight for.

 

[Spartacus]

If I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word, my word is poontang

 

[Spartacus]