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the greatest armies in the world

Spartacus said:
they're still working on the computer version of world in flames
when it's done we'll tangle

I don't care for the abstractness of hearts of iron
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I greatly enjoyed playing WIF 5th edition tabletop. They ruined the game in later editions IMO.
 
javaguru said:
The Nazis were masters of propaganda films....
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So are the Jews, lol.

What goes around...
 
javaguru said:
Closing ceremony, Triumph of the Will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80lLU5-yji8

Many historians believe Rudolph Hess wrote most of Mein Kamph.
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Apparently he dictated (what else? hehe) it to him while in prison, which would partially explain the ramblings and sometimes difficult-to-follow passages throughout.
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
Apparently he dictated (what else? hehe) it to him while in prison, which would partially explain the ramblings and sometimes difficult-to-follow passages throughout.
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I've never read it, was it a translation or in German?
 
Romans
Mongols
Napoleon
 
Spartacus said:
I'm siding with javaguru
the germans birthed modern warfare
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I'll date the initial evolution to the Sturmtruppen which began in 1915 that were trained in Hutier tactics. They also made widespread use of defence in depth during WWI, arguably the best defence against maneuver combined arms warfare, later used to great success by the Soviet Army at Kursk in WWII.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_von_Hutier
Hutier tactics
Hutier had noticed that in many previous battles, the conventional method of launching an attack, with a lengthy artillery barrage all along the line followed by an assault from massed infantry, was leading to disastrous losses. He suggested an alternate approach, now called either Hutier Tactics or infiltration tactics, which consisted of these basic steps:

1: A short artillery bombardment, featuring heavy shells mixed with numerous poison gas projectiles, which would concentrate on neutralizing the enemy front lines, rather than on destroying them by itself.

2: Under a creeping barrage, German shock troops (Sturmbatallione) would move forward and infiltrate the Allied defenses at previously identified weak points. They would avoid combat whenever possible and attempt to destroy or capture enemy headquarters and artillery strongpoints.

3: After the shock troops had done their job, German Army units heavily equipped with machine guns and mortars would make heavy attacks along narrow fronts against any Allied strongpoints the shock troops missed. When the artillery was in place, officers could direct the fire wherever it was needed to accelerate the breakthrough.

4: In the last stage of the assault, regular infantry would mop up any remaining Allied resistance.

Many other generals had planned attacks along similar lines in the past, dating as far back as United States Army Colonel Emory Upton at the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House in 1864. Allied generals had done so on a small scale in earlier battles in France, but Hutier was the first commander to employ them on a wide, ongoing scale.
 
javaguru said:
I've never read it, was it a translation or in German?
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I'm yet to read it myself. A 20 something kid I sat next to on my flight back from MN had it with him. He said he got weird looks from the airport staff lol. He said he was told it's one of history's must reads.

It is long and difficult to follow from what I understand though. In any case it's on my list of books to read.
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
I'm yet to read it myself. A 20 something kid I sat next to on my flight back from MN had it with him. He said he got weird looks from the airport staff lol. He said he was told it's one of history's must reads.

It is long and difficult to follow from what I understand though. In any case it's on my list of books to read.
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Considering WWII shaped the 20th century very understandable to consider it a must read. When I took the Theory of War at OSU we read "On War" by Clauswitz, "The Prince" by Machiavelli and "The Art of War" by Tsung Tsu.
 
javaguru said:
Considering WWII shaped the 20th century very understandable to consider it a must read. When I took the Theory of War at OSU we read "On War" by Clauswitz, "The Prince" by Machiavelli and "The Art of War" by Tsung Tsu.
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The Prince takes about 30 minutes to read.

Shoot....I'll bet that Bush even read that book.
 
test boy ii said:
The Prince takes about 30 minutes to read.

Shoot....I'll bet that Bush even read that book.
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Reading/regurgitating and analyzing are different. I had to make a presentation,in a graduate level only class in arguably the best military history program of the time as an undergrad.This presentation was based on the multiple works I read. I recited "The Prince" in high school for my advanced history class and debunked it back then. His treatment of mercenaries is contradictory of real world results, they often performed better than resident conscripts. On the other hand, Clausewitz does define the western way of war. Go stick your dick up your ass. Don't fuck with me on military history or I'll make you my prison bitch......without lube.
 
How about that ottoman empire boys? Get it? They sat around with their feet up. Get it?
 
Freiwillige - The Foreign Volunteers by Jason Pipes

http://www.feldgrau.com/main1.php?ID=7


One of the most amazing aspects of WWII, and one of the least well known, is the incredibly large number of foreign volunteers that joined the German Armed Forces between 1939 and 1945. During WWII, nearly 2,000,000 foreigners served within the German fighting forces, many as willing volunteers, others through varying degrees of conscription. The reasons these volunteers joined the German Wehrmacht were varied, but a simple look at the numbers begins to tell the story - in the East alone nearly 1,000,000 men volunteered for service with Germany. This number is a direct result of the situation millions faced under the brutal rule of the Soviet Empire. Many foreign volunteers and conscripts were anonymously intergrated into all areas of the military, while a great number of others formed distict units consisting either partly or entirely of volunteers of specific ethnic, cultural or political backgrounds. These units were employed in all varieties of combat tasks from carrying wounded and supplies, to fighting partisans, to serving on the front line. Some of these units would prove to be tenacious and elite formations - the match of any regular German units - while others would prove worthless in serious combat. Some units even mutinied and resisted the Germans after having been fully trained and armed! In the end, many volunteers were openly slaughtered by the partisans, and in some cases by the Allies themselves, while most others were handed over to their respective former homelands. In most cases, as with those sent to the former Soviet Union, these volunteers would never be seen again.
 
the german foreign legion

why did 2 million volunteer to fight for the "madman" adolf hitler?
 
Perhaps one of the most successful volunteer contingents to have fought for Germany,in terms of fierce fighting spirit and battleworthiness,were the Spanish Volunteers. The war situation in spring of 1941 was bleak for Great Britain and her few existing allies; the Balkans,Greece,and Crete had fallen in short order beneath the seemingly unstoppable German armies. Nevertheless,the Caudillo (leader) of Spain,Generalissimo Francisco Franco,despite urgent proddings from the German Foreign office to join the war on the Axis side, found it politic for reasons both economic and geo-strategic to keep Spain a neutral state in the great conflict. Still, Franco was quite aware of a debt owed to Germany for her pivotal "Legion Condor" aid during the Spanish Civil War years,and conversely, had a grudge to settle with Stalin for his aid to the opposing Republican side. Only hours after German troops stormed Soviet borders in the east on June 22,1941, Spain officially offered her services to the Reich. The Spanish plan was to draw volunteers for a Division to fight exclusively in Russia from among both her standing Army, and the presiding fascist party known as the Falange. (The volunteers would later dub themselves as the "Azul" or "Blue",in reference to the "blue-shirts" worn by the Falangist movement.)
 
Calls for volunteers were overwhelmingly enthusiastic from the start. Potential recruits flocked to Falange party stations and Army barracks across Spain. The recruits came from all backgrounds and numbered among them many ex-Civil War combatants, seasoned soldiers, and fliers (an "Esquadra Azul" of pilots was also raised for the Luftwaffe on the Eastern front). Apparently,the thought of personally striking at the Soviet Union, the home of "International Communism", greatly appealed to the Spaniards. An example of their mass enthusiasm can be seen in that by July 2nd,1941 when the recruiting stations were officially closed - it is reported that the required initial draft of 18,000 men had been exceeded enough to form at least several infantry divisions.
 
germany saved western europe from communism
western europe should be indebted to germany
 
During the frozen month of October 1941 units of the German 18th and 126.Infanterie Divisions,along with two regiments of the Spanish Azul crossed the Volkhov at Udarnik and established a bridghead on the east bank. The II/269.Inf.Rgt. was again closely engaged in heavy combat and close-quarter fighting against elements of the Soviet 52nd Corps,which they successfully threw back after tenacious defense of the bridgehead. Continuous shelling by the Soviets kept reinforcements at a minimum,but forces of the III/263rd Inf.Rgt. and the 250.Reserve Battalion made it to the east bank of the Volkhov to bolster the defense. In a slowly widening circle to the north,east,and south of thier start point, bought with grim and unflinching resolve - the Spanish grenadiers invested the villages of Tigoda, Dubrovka,and Muravji on the east bank of the Volkhov,pushing the Russians slowly back.

With the full freeze on of the Volkhov in November, the the Spaniards faced regular counter-attacks from the Soviets on their flanks,which included massive artillery bombardments,and vast WWI-like infantry trench-charges by the "hoourah..." screaming Russians. At the village of Possad on 12 November, wave upon wave of Russian soldiers hurled themselves at the Azul held line in serveral successive attempts to regain control of the village. It would eventually turn into a standoff. The grimly determined Azul held up against each Red counter-attack,taking heavy casualties in men an material not easily replenished. For close to a month the Spanish volunteers held Possad,while only meager replenishments of men and ammunition were able to get through. While the Soviets urged their opponents to surrender their nearly sorrounded positions, the Spanish defiantly retorted with their Civil War battle-cry : "Arriba Espana!" The garrison of Possad was quietly withdrawn on 7 December, only when intelligence told the Soviet atttacking force had also withdrawn through sheer exhaustion. The losses to the 269.Inf.Rgt. during this brutal month were 120 dead, 440 wounded,and 20 missing. All units of the 250.Inf.Div. now retired over the frozen Volkhov to fortified positions on the west bank.

That winter, greater horrors would visit the volunteers. On Christmas eve of 1941, at positions held by a company of Spanish Grenadiers at Lubkovo suddenly overrun by a fierce attack of Soviet infantry - relief troops subsequently found the stripped and mutialted bodies of Alferez' Moscoso's over-run platoon nailed to the frozen ground with thier own bayonets and pick-axes in a display of brutal mock-crucifixion. Shortly thereafter, a fierce, revenge-focused counterattack by two companies of the I/269 Inf.Rgt. of the "Azul" left the icy surface of the frozen Volkhov strewn with the dead bodies of an entire Soviet battalion. For the time being - the atrocities had been revenged. One can only imagine the endlessly repercussive effects of this sort of action. This was the reality of the bitter fighting on the Volkhov front.
 
Croatian Volunteers in the Wehrmacht in WWII by Allen Milic


On April 6th, 1941, Germany launched a massive assault on Yugoslavia. Within 12 days of the assault Yugoslavia was crushed. Four days after the German assault, on April 10th, 1941, Slavko Kvaternik came forward from the region of Croatia and proclaimed "a free and independent State of Croatia" under the direction of Ante Pavelic. At the time of the German assault and later during Kvaternik's declaration, Pavelic was in Italy. He arrived in Croatia on April 14th and took up control of the newly formed independent State of Croatia. On April 17th, Croatia declared war on the British, thus making Croatia a formal Axis partner.

Over the course of the Second World War many Croatians choose not to serve in the various branches of the Armed Forces of the Independant State of Croatia, but instead volunteered for service in one of the military forces of Croatia's Axis allies, namely with Germany, or to a lesser degree, with Italy. Croatians served in all branches of the German Wehrmacht the Waffen SS and the SS Police.
 
http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=13


The Croatian 369th Reinforced Regiment

On the day of the German invasion of the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941, the "Poglavnik" (Leader) of the Independant State of Croatia, Ante Pavelic, met with the military and civilian leadership of Croatia to decide how best to support their German ally. All present were strongly in favour of the German attack, seeing the invasion as a battle between the progressive forces of Europe against the Communist forces in the East. All present agreed that Croatia should participate in the invasion alongside Germany. To this end the representative of the German military in Croatia, Edmund Glaise von Horstenau, was contacted.

Von Horstenau suggested that Pavelic prepare a letter to Adolf Hitler, offering the service of Croatian troops on the Eastern Front. Pavelic prepared this letter the following day, on June 23rd, 1941. In his letter, Pavelic explained to Hitler the wishes of the Croatian people to join the battle of "all freedom loving nations against Communism". Pavelic offered ground, sea and air forces, to be committed "as soon as possible" to fight alongside Germany. Hitler responded to Pavelic's letter on July 1st 1941, accepting the Croatian offer and thanking them for their service. Hitler was of the opinion that ground forces could be sent quickly, while air and sea forces would need a longer time to be properly trained and equiped. On July 2nd, 1941, Pavelic ordered that volunteers be called for from all branches of the Armed Forces of Croatia to join the struggle in the East.

The ground contingent of the planned Croatian formations was the first to be formed. The Croatians hoped for a total of 3,900 volunteers in order to form a regimental sized unit, but by the 15th of July 1941, 9,000 men had already stepped forward and volunteered for service! In light of such high numbers the criteria for acceptance was raised considerably.
 
I wonder how many americans realize how much of europe allied with nazi germany to fight the soviet communist empire
who we would fight a 50 year cold war against
and lose lives in Korea and Vietnam fighting
 
In Budniskaja, a group of experienced German NCO's joined the Regiment to assist in its final training and aclimatizing in the front lines.

On October 9th 1941, the 369th Regiment was assigned to the 100.Jäger-Division. On the 13th of October the Regiment participated in its first battle east of the Dnjeper River. From here on in battles were fought around the villages and towns of Petrusani, Kremencuga, Poltava, Saroki, Balti, Pervomajsk, Kirovgrad, Petropavlovsk, Taranovka, Grisin, Stalino, Vasiljevka, Aleksandrovka, Ivanovka, and Garbatovo. One particular aspect of the fighting during these battles that shocked the Croatians was the sheer numbers of surrendering Soviet troops. Literally thousands surrendered to the Croatians. It actually came to the point where the Regiment was so swamped they considered releasing some of their PoWs! Many of the Soviet soldiers, and especially the Russians and Ukrainians, prefered to surrender to the Croatians feeling that they would get better treatment from fellow Slavs.
 
the germans "embedded" their own officers often within the ranks of their volunteers
a tactic it's taken far too long for the US to realize the effectiveness of in Iraq
 
The Regiment's men participated in some of the hardest battles in the attempt to take Stalingrad. A typical day of fighting in Stalingrad for the men of the Regiment was described by the Commander of a platoon of the 3rd Company, Lt. Bucar:

"...When we entered Stalingrad, it was ruined and in flames. We took cover in trenches and bunkers, as the enemy was hitting us with artilley, Katusha rockets, and with aircraft. I was lucky not to lose any men, but the Second Platoon lost one man dead and 5 wounded, and the Third Platoon 13 dead and wounded. Around 6:00am, German Stuka aircraft bombed the area ahead of us, and an attack was ordered towards the northern part of the city. My platoon's mission was to, in conjuction with a German unit, clear the Freight Station, and then the railroad dike, and reach the Volga River. Night fell under constant bombardment. I didn't lose any men, but our transport unit was hit badly, and lost 10 men, 40 horses, and an equipment truck with ammunition..."

The Commander of the 2nd Battalion, Captain Ivan Coric, described the fighting in Stalingrad as follows:

"...During the night of 26/27 September, Russian aircraft flew extremely low, and bombed the area where my battalion was supposed to be encamped. However, expecting that this section might be hit, we had taken cover in ditches around the area. At 6:00am on the 27th of September, receiving fire from only one part of the city, I re-deployed my men in various deep ditches, and in covered areas. We remained in reserve until 1:00pm, when the Regimental commander ordered that my battalion move out towards the German 227th Regiment's positions. I requested that this move be postponed until dark as the Soviets were bombing the area with heavy artillery and Katusha rockets and I worried about the heavy casualties we would take moving in the open through this barrage. The Commander refused to consider my request, and at 2:00pm, under the heaviest of bombardments, I moved out with my Battalion towards the 227th Regiment, about 10km away. We moved in groups of 3-4 men, with myself and my Adjutant in the lead. After only a few hundred meters, we were hit by immense artillery fire, and my men began to die, one after another. Company Commander Tomas was wounded. About half way to the 227th, we were ordered to stop and for myself and my Adjutant to report to the Commander of the 227th Regiment. I arranged my men in ditches and cover in the surrounding area. The Commander of the 227th Regiment, Lt.Colonel Mohr, ordered my battalion to reinforce his weakened regiment, and for myself and my staff to remain in the vicinity of his HQ. Upon receiving these orders, and returning to my men, darkness had fallen. We moved out towards the positions of the 227th, crawling through ditches. Under a moonlight sky, Soviet airplanes easily noticed us and bombed us with Phosphorus bombs that burn upon explosion. Many of my men were in flames. It was a horrible sight. Healthy and wounded jumped in to try and save our burning comrades... My Battalion, now attached to the 227th Regiment, advanced with great difficulty, taking house by house. During the night of the 28th of September 1942, I was forced to leave my men due to a serious head wound I received from an airplane bomb. My Adjutant, Lt. Tomislav Jelic, was wounded in this explosion as well. I later heard that my men continued to fight heroically until the last man of the 2nd battalion had fallen."

By the 13th of October the 369th Regiment was down to one weak battalion and 2 weak independent companies consisting of only 983 men total out of the original Regiment, including all reinforcements arrived from Stokerau. Still on this day, the Regiment managed to advance a further 800 meters into the northern sector of Stalingrad.
 
On the 16th of October 1942, Colonel-General Sanne decorated Croatian Sergeant Dragutin Podobnik with the Iron Cross 1st Class for extreme heroism during the taking of the Red October factory on the 30th of September. Colonel Pavicic is also decorated with this medal for his excellent leadership of the Regiment.

During the remaining days of October 1942 the Regiment fought hard and its losses accumulated. The Red October factory was continously the center of fighting during this time. A Soviet counter-attack along the railway tracks near the Red October factory was just barely contained, and Russian civilians were even seen shooting Croatian and German soldiers, prompting an order to fire indescriminately on all civilians found in the battle zone. October 31st 1942 was spent defending Building number ten of the Red October factory.

On November 3rd 1942, the 369th Regiment had the following troops still available: 1 infantry company with 98 men and 8 light machine-guns, a heavy machine-gun company with 73 men and one operational heavy machine-gun, and an anti-tank company with 20 men and 6 cannon - only enough men to serve two! The total remaining Croatian soldiers was 191. Of this, only 4 were officers. This number does not include the artillery battery, whose men and weapons were scattered throughout various German units. On the 4th of November, a battalion of replacements arrived from Stokerau, but even these much needed men barely made the "reinforced regiment" a reinforced battalion!

On the 6th of November the remains of the unit were attached to the German 212th Infantry Regiment. Fighting continued in and around the Red October factory. On November 21st 1942, news of a Soviet attack on the flanks of the 6.Armee was heard. By November 25th 1942, the lines being held by the Regiment were so thinly manned that Soviet scouts were able to pass through poritions of the front into the Gemran rear. Every available man, including the sick and lightly wounded, were therefore sent to hold the line.

There were 5 officers, 9 NCO's and 110 soldiers left fighting at the end of November, 1942. Food was carefully rationed and consists of 120 grams of horse meat per meal along with some bread. Of the 3 daily meals, only one was considered large, and this consisted of only 1/2 of the required amount to sustain troops from day-to-day.

As December arrived, the few remaining Croatian soldiers were frozen, hungry and in the midst of a general lack of ammunition and weapons. The commanding officer, Colonel Pavicic, was by now living in his own world writing out irrelevant daily orders to troops and units that no longer existed. On the 17th of December, the Volga River froze over allowing the Soviets to open another front on that side of the city as well.

On Christmas Day, 1942, Lt. Korobkin wrote:

"...Today, December 25, 1942, around noon, the enemy attacked from Building number 4 into Building number 2 (Red October Factory), which is our left flank. The enemy fought his way into number 2. Our defenders are under constant fire from the 'small white house' accross from Building number 2. A cannon shot by the enemy has destroyed our heavy machine-gun. At the same time as this attack on our left flank, the enemy attacked our right flank. Despite cross-fire and artillery support, this attack was thrown back. This success is mostly due to the heroism of Corporal Ivan Vadlje. In the evening we received a message from Lt.-Colonel Eichler, congratulating us for holding out. When night fell, we took advantage of the dark, and counter-attacked on our left flank. Using hand grenades, we destroyed the enemy unit, and re-took our previous positions. Lt-Colonel Eichler, upon hearing of this success, sent us a new message, in which he says that the Grenadiers of the 212th Regiment are proud to have warriors like us Croats in their midst. Sergeants Ante Martinovic and Franjo Filcic were killed in this counter-attack. 12 men are wounded."

On January 10th, 1943, Colonel Pavicic, in his report to the 100.Jäger-Division, wrote:

"I must say that, in the period from September 27, 1942, when we arrived at Stalingrad, till today, my men have had only 4 days of rest. The last day of rest, on the 30th of December for 24 hours, was insufficient even for required sleep, as after 3 days and nights of constant battles in and around the Red October, they were so over-tired, that they slept like they were dead, and never even had time to wash, shave, or cut their hair. Immediately after this short rest, they were again thrown into the thick of battle, holding a small salient in our lines. They held this position until the 9th of January, 1943, when they were pulled back into our current position. We are under attack here again today."

On the 16th of January 1943, the Soviets launched an attack from three sides of the Croatian positions. They were pushed several streets back and a group led by Lt. Fiember was cut off. Under heavy attack, this group ran out of ammunition and was later over-run. Lt.Colonel Kuhlwein attempted to save young Fiember and his men by counter-attacking, but all of the men of this attack were killed, including Lt.-Colonel Kuhlwein. Lieutenants Zubcevski, Korobkin and Vadlja, with a few surviving soldiers, continued to battle against this Soviet attack and soon all three were seriously wounded. The German command then ordered that the last survivng Croats be pulled from the battle lines and be employed in digging fortification lines around the former Soviet Airforce Academy, which would serve as the last defense point of the unit.

Shortly after, Colonel Pavicic requested from the 100.Jäger-Division that he be replaced. As he has no more men, just a few wounded, he felt he was useless. He suggested that Lt.-Colonel Mesic (Commander of the artillery battery) replace him, and that he (Pavicic) be flown out of Stalingrad back to Stokerau where a German-Croatian Division was being formed to fight the partisans in the Balkans (This would be the 369th "Devil's" Division, see below). On the 20th of January 1943, Colonel Pavicic attempted to fly out of Stalingrad. It is a complete mystery what happened to him. Two possibilites exist, one that his plane was shot down and the other that he had attempted to leave without the orders of the Divisional Command and was executed in those last mad days of the Stalingrad pocket. The former is more likely the truth, as there is a witness (Sergeant Ervin Juric) amongst the surviving Croatians that claims to have seen the orders arrive for Pavicic from General Sanne.

On the 23rd of January 1943, 18 wounded Croatians were flown out of Stalingrad. They were the last Croatians to leave Stalingalive. Amongst these lucky souls was Croatian Sergeant Juric, who wrote and carried with him to safety the Kriegstagbuch (unit war diary) of the 369th Reinforced Regiment, thereby saving for posterity the ultimate memorial to these brave men. The only entry in the diary after January 23rd 1943 is "February 2, 1943, Stalingrad has fallen".

Lt.-Colonel Mesic remained in Stalingrad after January 23rd 1943 with the few surviving men of the Regiment. Most died in the desperate battles at the end. Mesic and a handfull of soldiers survived and surrendered to the Soviets. They were forced to walk with no warm clothes and no food, all the way to Moscow. Here, they were thrown into a fenced field where they had to dig holes in the snow for protection from the elements. They were fed once a day and in 1945, Mesic was sent to Yugoslavia where the Communists government had him liquidated.

The remnants of the 369th that had been evacuated by air from Stalingrad due to wounds, sickness, etc, were sent to Stockerau where they alongside the replacement battalion of the former Regiment, formed the core of a new Croatian infantry unit, the 369th Vrazja Division, or Devil's Division. There were approximately 1,000 of these former veterans of the original Croatian Regiment. They were all awarded a special honor badge called the "Croatian Legion Badge - 1941" shaped as a Linden leaf with the Croat checkerboard and the words "Hrvatska Legija - 1941" on it.
 
Spartacus said:
On the 16th of October 1942, Colonel-General Sanne decorated Croatian Sergeant Dragutin Podobnik with the Iron Cross 1st Class for extreme heroism during the taking of the Red October factory on the 30th of September. Colonel Pavicic is also decorated with this medal for his excellent leadership of the Regiment.

During the remaining days of October 1942 the Regiment fought hard and its losses accumulated. The Red October factory was continously the center of fighting during this time. A Soviet counter-attack along the railway tracks near the Red October factory was just barely contained, and Russian civilians were even seen shooting Croatian and German soldiers, prompting an order to fire indescriminately on all civilians found in the battle zone. October 31st 1942 was spent defending Building number ten of the Red October factory.

On November 3rd 1942, the 369th Regiment had the following troops still available: 1 infantry company with 98 men and 8 light machine-guns, a heavy machine-gun company with 73 men and one operational heavy machine-gun, and an anti-tank company with 20 men and 6 cannon - only enough men to serve two! The total remaining Croatian soldiers was 191. Of this, only 4 were officers. This number does not include the artillery battery, whose men and weapons were scattered throughout various German units. On the 4th of November, a battalion of replacements arrived from Stokerau, but even these much needed men barely made the "reinforced regiment" a reinforced battalion!

On the 6th of November the remains of the unit were attached to the German 212th Infantry Regiment. Fighting continued in and around the Red October factory. On November 21st 1942, news of a Soviet attack on the flanks of the 6.Armee was heard. By November 25th 1942, the lines being held by the Regiment were so thinly manned that Soviet scouts were able to pass through poritions of the front into the Gemran rear. Every available man, including the sick and lightly wounded, were therefore sent to hold the line.

There were 5 officers, 9 NCO's and 110 soldiers left fighting at the end of November, 1942. Food was carefully rationed and consists of 120 grams of horse meat per meal along with some bread. Of the 3 daily meals, only one was considered large, and this consisted of only 1/2 of the required amount to sustain troops from day-to-day.

As December arrived, the few remaining Croatian soldiers were frozen, hungry and in the midst of a general lack of ammunition and weapons. The commanding officer, Colonel Pavicic, was by now living in his own world writing out irrelevant daily orders to troops and units that no longer existed. On the 17th of December, the Volga River froze over allowing the Soviets to open another front on that side of the city as well.

On Christmas Day, 1942, Lt. Korobkin wrote:

"...Today, December 25, 1942, around noon, the enemy attacked from Building number 4 into Building number 2 (Red October Factory), which is our left flank. The enemy fought his way into number 2. Our defenders are under constant fire from the 'small white house' accross from Building number 2. A cannon shot by the enemy has destroyed our heavy machine-gun. At the same time as this attack on our left flank, the enemy attacked our right flank. Despite cross-fire and artillery support, this attack was thrown back. This success is mostly due to the heroism of Corporal Ivan Vadlje. In the evening we received a message from Lt.-Colonel Eichler, congratulating us for holding out. When night fell, we took advantage of the dark, and counter-attacked on our left flank. Using hand grenades, we destroyed the enemy unit, and re-took our previous positions. Lt-Colonel Eichler, upon hearing of this success, sent us a new message, in which he says that the Grenadiers of the 212th Regiment are proud to have warriors like us Croats in their midst. Sergeants Ante Martinovic and Franjo Filcic were killed in this counter-attack. 12 men are wounded."

On January 10th, 1943, Colonel Pavicic, in his report to the 100.Jäger-Division, wrote:

"I must say that, in the period from September 27, 1942, when we arrived at Stalingrad, till today, my men have had only 4 days of rest. The last day of rest, on the 30th of December for 24 hours, was insufficient even for required sleep, as after 3 days and nights of constant battles in and around the Red October, they were so over-tired, that they slept like they were dead, and never even had time to wash, shave, or cut their hair. Immediately after this short rest, they were again thrown into the thick of battle, holding a small salient in our lines. They held this position until the 9th of January, 1943, when they were pulled back into our current position. We are under attack here again today."

On the 16th of January 1943, the Soviets launched an attack from three sides of the Croatian positions. They were pushed several streets back and a group led by Lt. Fiember was cut off. Under heavy attack, this group ran out of ammunition and was later over-run. Lt.Colonel Kuhlwein attempted to save young Fiember and his men by counter-attacking, but all of the men of this attack were killed, including Lt.-Colonel Kuhlwein. Lieutenants Zubcevski, Korobkin and Vadlja, with a few surviving soldiers, continued to battle against this Soviet attack and soon all three were seriously wounded. The German command then ordered that the last survivng Croats be pulled from the battle lines and be employed in digging fortification lines around the former Soviet Airforce Academy, which would serve as the last defense point of the unit.

Shortly after, Colonel Pavicic requested from the 100.Jäger-Division that he be replaced. As he has no more men, just a few wounded, he felt he was useless. He suggested that Lt.-Colonel Mesic (Commander of the artillery battery) replace him, and that he (Pavicic) be flown out of Stalingrad back to Stokerau where a German-Croatian Division was being formed to fight the partisans in the Balkans (This would be the 369th "Devil's" Division, see below). On the 20th of January 1943, Colonel Pavicic attempted to fly out of Stalingrad. It is a complete mystery what happened to him. Two possibilites exist, one that his plane was shot down and the other that he had attempted to leave without the orders of the Divisional Command and was executed in those last mad days of the Stalingrad pocket. The former is more likely the truth, as there is a witness (Sergeant Ervin Juric) amongst the surviving Croatians that claims to have seen the orders arrive for Pavicic from General Sanne.

On the 23rd of January 1943, 18 wounded Croatians were flown out of Stalingrad. They were the last Croatians to leave Stalingalive. Amongst these lucky souls was Croatian Sergeant Juric, who wrote and carried with him to safety the Kriegstagbuch (unit war diary) of the 369th Reinforced Regiment, thereby saving for posterity the ultimate memorial to these brave men. The only entry in the diary after January 23rd 1943 is "February 2, 1943, Stalingrad has fallen".

Lt.-Colonel Mesic remained in Stalingrad after January 23rd 1943 with the few surviving men of the Regiment. Most died in the desperate battles at the end. Mesic and a handfull of soldiers survived and surrendered to the Soviets. They were forced to walk with no warm clothes and no food, all the way to Moscow. Here, they were thrown into a fenced field where they had to dig holes in the snow for protection from the elements. They were fed once a day and in 1945, Mesic was sent to Yugoslavia where the Communists government had him liquidated.

The remnants of the 369th that had been evacuated by air from Stalingrad due to wounds, sickness, etc, were sent to Stockerau where they alongside the replacement battalion of the former Regiment, formed the core of a new Croatian infantry unit, the 369th Vrazja Division, or Devil's Division. There were approximately 1,000 of these former veterans of the original Croatian Regiment. They were all awarded a special honor badge called the "Croatian Legion Badge - 1941" shaped as a Linden leaf with the Croat checkerboard and the words "Hrvatska Legija - 1941" on it.
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Hell yeah, I'm roughly half Croat myself.
 
make's you wonder why so many foreign volunteers fought so effectively for the third reich

I've just highlighted the spanish and the croatians
the belgians and dutch fielded outstanding divisions for the reich also

the romanians and hungarians fought well on the eastern front too
the Italian's sent a whole corps to the eastern front

that was the big dance for the entire history of mankind
never again will two superpowers clash like the soviets and germany
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
Hell yeah, I'm roughly half Croat myself.
Click to expand...
"Lt.-Colonel Mesic remained in Stalingrad after January 23rd 1943 with the few surviving men of the Regiment. Most died in the desperate battles at the end. Mesic and a handfull of soldiers survived and surrendered to the Soviets. They were forced to walk with no warm clothes and no food, all the way to Moscow. Here, they were thrown into a fenced field where they had to dig holes in the snow for protection from the elements. They were fed once a day and in 1945, Mesic was sent to Yugoslavia where the Communists government had him liquidated."
 
Spartacus said:
make's you wonder why so many foreign volunteers fought so effectively for the third reich

I've just highlighted the spanish and the croatians
the belgians and dutch fielded outstanding divisions for the reich also

the romanians and hungarians fought well on the eastern front too
the Italian's sent a whole corps to the eastern front

that was the big dance for the entire history of mankind
never again will two superpowers clash like the soviets and germany
Click to expand...


Do you think Germany could've pulled it off without having to deal with the U.S./British on the western front, and their aid to the Soviets?
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
Do you think Germany could've pulled it off without having to deal with the U.S./British on the western front, and their aid to the Soviets?
Click to expand...
tough call
if germany had captured moscow and thus divide the USSR effectively in two (moscow was a major key transit center) in 1941 or early-mid 1942
and finish off the north half and leningrad
then bring the full strength of the wehrmacht to the south and basically mop up
and end the war in the east before the winter of 1942

no way the USA and Britian get back into mainland europe

mighty if though
they got damn close to moscow and arguably only the severe winter(worst winter in around a 100years) saved moscow
 
Spartacus said:
tough call
if germany had captured moscow and thus divide the USSR effectively in two (moscow was a major key transit center) in 1941 or early-mid 1942
and finish off the north half and leningrad
then bring the full strength of the wehrmacht to the south and basically mop up
and end the war in the east before the winter of 1942

no way the USA and Britian get back into mainland europe

mighty if though
they got damn close to moscow and arguably only the severe winter(worst winter in around a 100years) saved moscow
Click to expand...


I read somewhere that they could've taken Moscow earlier if they had access to come in from the south. I think it had something to do with Yugoslavia and Britain conflict that prevented it. Damn I wish I remember where that article was.
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
I read somewhere that they could've taken Moscow earlier if they had access to come in from the south. I think it had something to do with Yugoslavia and Britain conflict that prevented it. Damn I wish I remember where that article was.
Click to expand...
Barbarossa was delayed because Hitler had to clean up the Italian cluster fuck in Yugoslavia and Greece. Mussolini invaded Yugoslavia and Greece but was getting his ass kicked. It delayed the invasion of the Soviet Union by four weeks, it may have cost Germany the Eastern Front.
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
I read somewhere that they could've taken Moscow earlier if they had access to come in from the south. I think it had something to do with Yugoslavia and Britain conflict that prevented it. Damn I wish I remember where that article was.
Click to expand...
not sure what you speak of
they germans were at the extreme ends of their supply lines fighting in awful weather conditions
their men were exhausted while the soviets were able to keep reinforcing with fresh units,particularily the siberian troops

germans came damn close though
it's argued the decision to encircle Kiev(which netted 600,000 POWs) cost gunderian's 2nd panzergruppe too much time
when guderian should have gone straight for moscow
for me it's tough critique the decision as the Kiev encirclement was a major victory
but it cost the effort on moscow
and by the time 2nd panzergruppe could resume it's offensive towards moscow the weather went sour
first rain and mud
then freezing conditions
 
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come to think about it now
barbarossa was launched june 22
if the germans hadn't had to bail out the Italians by going into yugoslavia and greece
and having their airborne troops severely attrited to take crete

if the germans hadn't had to mess around in the balkans battling the brits,greece & yugoslavia
and had been able to launch barbarossa 6 weeks earlier
and thus have 6 weeks more clear weather to assault moscow

moscow would have fallen
 
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The original blitzkrieg invasion plan, which the Axis called Operation Barbarossa, had called for the capture of Moscow within three to four months. However, despite large initial advances, the Wehrmacht was soon slowed by Soviet resistance (in particular during the Battle of Smolensk, which lasted from July through September 1941 and delayed the German offensive towards Moscow for two months). Having secured Smolensk, the Wehrmacht was forced to consolidate its lines around Leningrad and Kiev, further delaying the drive towards Moscow. The Axis advance was finally renewed on September 30, 1941, with an offensive codenamed Operation Typhoon, the goal of which was the capture of Moscow before the onset of winter.

After a successful initial advance leading to the encirclement and destruction of several Soviet armies, the German offensive was stopped by Soviet resistance at the Mozhaisk defensive line, just 120 km (75 mi) from the capital. Having penetrated the Soviet defenses, the Wehrmacht offensive was slowed by weather conditions, with autumn rains turning roads and fields into thick mud that significantly impeded Axis vehicles, horses, and soldiers. Although the onset of colder weather and the freezing of the ground allowed the Axis advance to continue, it continued to struggle in the face of the severe cold and stiffening Soviet resistance.

By early December, the lead German Panzer Groups stood less than 30 kilometers (19 mi) from the Kremlin, and Wehrmacht officers were able to see some of Moscow's buildings with binoculars; but, handicapped by cold and exhausted troops, the Axis forces were unable to make further advances. On December 5, 1941, fresh Soviet Siberian troops, prepared for winter warfare, attacked the German forces in front of Moscow; by January 1942, the Wehrmacht had been driven back 100 to 250 km (60 to 150 mi), ending the immediate threat to Moscow and marking the closest that Axis forces ever got to capturing the Soviet capital.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow
 
javaguru said:
Barbarossa was delayed because Hitler had to clean up the Italian cluster fuck in Yugoslavia and Greece. Mussolini invaded Yugoslavia and Greece but was getting his ass kicked. It delayed the invasion of the Soviet Union by four weeks, it may have cost Germany the Eastern Front.
Click to expand...


Ahhh yes it was Mussolini and Greece. Thanks bro.
 
Spartacus said:
The original blitzkrieg invasion plan, which the Axis called Operation Barbarossa, had called for the capture of Moscow within three to four months. However, despite large initial advances, the Wehrmacht was soon slowed by Soviet resistance (in particular during the Battle of Smolensk, which lasted from July through September 1941 and delayed the German offensive towards Moscow for two months). Having secured Smolensk, the Wehrmacht was forced to consolidate its lines around Leningrad and Kiev, further delaying the drive towards Moscow. The Axis advance was finally renewed on September 30, 1941, with an offensive codenamed Operation Typhoon, the goal of which was the capture of Moscow before the onset of winter.

After a successful initial advance leading to the encirclement and destruction of several Soviet armies, the German offensive was stopped by Soviet resistance at the Mozhaisk defensive line, just 120 km (75 mi) from the capital. Having penetrated the Soviet defenses, the Wehrmacht offensive was slowed by weather conditions, with autumn rains turning roads and fields into thick mud that significantly impeded Axis vehicles, horses, and soldiers. Although the onset of colder weather and the freezing of the ground allowed the Axis advance to continue, it continued to struggle in the face of the severe cold and stiffening Soviet resistance.

By early December, the lead German Panzer Groups stood less than 30 kilometers (19 mi) from the Kremlin, and Wehrmacht officers were able to see some of Moscow's buildings with binoculars; but, handicapped by cold and exhausted troops, the Axis forces were unable to make further advances. On December 5, 1941, fresh Soviet Siberian troops, prepared for winter warfare, attacked the German forces in front of Moscow; by January 1942, the Wehrmacht had been driven back 100 to 250 km (60 to 150 mi), ending the immediate threat to Moscow and marking the closest that Axis forces ever got to capturing the Soviet capital.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow
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The word "ambitious" comes to mind.

Would've torn communism a new one. Hell, it might've eventually ended it, from a governmental standpoint at least.
 
javaguru said:
Mussolini was to Hitler as that idiot friend we always have to bail out of trouble is to us.
Click to expand...


Only they're dictators, which would make a funny comedy sketch.
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
The word "ambitious" comes to mind.

Would've torn communism a new one. Hell, it might've eventually ended it, from a governmental standpoint at least.
Click to expand...
it's popular to call Hitler a dumbass for invading the USSR

but I disagree due to 3 major points

point one
in world war one the germans embarrassed the russians and pushed them around and stomped their ass

point two
when the soviets invaded Finland in 1940 they were again embarrassed with outnumbered and out-equiped Finns again stomping the superior soviets

point three
the germans and their blitzkrieg had excelled thus far in the war
Poland put up a good fight,but succumbed in a month

france with the help of the BEF fell in 6 weeks
but the battle of france was over in a month

the germans wiped out yugoslavia in 2 weeks
greece fell relatively easily too

so really Hitler had plenty of reasons to believe he could topple communist USSR in a two season campaign

not to mention his whole reason for starting the war was to expand Germany east and wipe out the bolsheviks/communists

it was a pan-european crusade against communism
with 1-2 million foreign volunteers joining the cause
 
Spartacus said:
it's popular to call Hitler a dumbass for invading the USSR

but I disagree due to 3 major points

point one
in world war one the germans embarrassed the russians and pushed them around and stomped their ass

point two
when the soviets invaded Finland in 1940 they were again embarrassed with outnumbered and out-equiped Finns again stomping the superior soviets

point three
the germans and their blitzkrieg had excelled thus far in the war
Poland put up a good fight,but succumbed in a month

france with the help of the BEF fell in 6 weeks
but the battle of france was over in a month

the germans wiped out yugoslavia in 2 weeks
greece fell relatively easily too

so really Hitler had plenty of reasons to believe he could topple communist USSR in a two season campaign

not to mention his whole reason for starting the war was to expand Germany east and wipe out the bolsheviks/communists

it was a pan-european crusade against communism
with 1-2 million foreign volunteers joining the cause
Click to expand...


Sadly to 99% of the world he was just an evil jew-hater. These same people probably fail to realize how many jews were also commies.
 
javaguru said:
Reading/regurgitating and analyzing are different. I had to make a presentation,in a graduate level only class in arguably the best military history program of the time as an undergrad.This presentation was based on the multiple works I read. I recited "The Prince" in high school for my advanced history class and debunked it back then. His treatment of mercenaries is contradictory of real world results, they often performed better than resident conscripts. On the other hand, Clausewitz does define the western way of war. Go stick your dick up your ass. Don't fuck with me on military history or I'll make you my prison bitch......without lube.[/QUOTE]

You are pretty proud of studying history for reasons unknown to many.
Click to expand...
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
Sadly to 99% of the world he was just an evil jew-hater. These same people probably fail to realize how many jews were also commies.
Click to expand...

why is it sad though?
if hitler wasn't so anti-semtic i think his other accomplishiments would looked at in a different light...
 
Gambino said:
why is it sad though?
if hitler wasn't so anti-semtic i think his other accomplishiments would looked at in a different light...
Click to expand...
It wasn't just anti-semetism. He was bent on world domination. He admitted that he would never quit until he ruled the world. So, he had Germany on a course for destruction from day one.
 
heatherrae said:
It wasn't just anti-semetism. He was bent on world domination. He admitted that he would never quit until he ruled the world. So, he had Germany on a course for destruction from day one.
Click to expand...

def overreaching and logistically impossible
an euro empire would've been hard enough to keep together
imagine all the rebellions you'd have over the yrs
but the german way of life, perscribed by hitler, wouldn't have been all death and destruction...he never intended to wipe out the french or brit peeps all together...they would've been incorporated into the reich.
as far as being conuquered goes, as long as you weren't jew/gypsy/slav/pole/etc...greater germany could've been a great society (hypothetical, but of course)
 
Gambino said:
def overreaching and logistically impossible
an euro empire would've been hard enough to keep together
imagine all the rebellions you'd have over the yrs
but the german way of life, perscribed by hitler, wouldn't have been all death and destruction...he never intended to wipe out the french or brit peeps all together...they would've been incorporated into the reich.
as far as being conuquered goes, as long as you weren't jew/gypsy/slav/pole/etc...greater germany could've been a great society (hypothetical, but of course)
Click to expand...
Actually, he did intend to wipe them out altogether. He came out with a memoir after Mein Kampf [sp?] in which he clearly stated that he wanted to dominate Europe and then take on America. He stated that he believed that Americans were even genetically superior to the Germans because they were the brightest, most adventurous, and physically superior of all who came over here. He said that he wanted to do it right away before America became even more strong.

He held off from publishing the book for obvious reasons. He didn't want everyone in the world to know that his plan was so far reaching. He wanted the element of surprise.

Now, the book has been uncovered and discussed quite a bit as of late. Sorry that I can't recall the title. I saw it on the history channel.
 
heatherrae said:
Actually, he did intend to wipe them out altogether. He came out with a memoir after Mein Kampf [sp?] in which he clearly stated that he wanted to dominate Europe and then take on America. He stated that he believed that Americans were even genetically superior to the Germans because they were the brightest, most adventurous, and physically superior of all who came over here. He said that he wanted to do it right away before America became even more strong.

He held off from publishing the book for obvious reasons. He didn't want everyone in the world to know that his plan was so far reaching. He wanted the element of surprise.

Now, the book has been uncovered and discussed quite a bit as of late. Sorry that I can't recall the title. I saw it on the history channel.
Click to expand...
i think in his racial hiearchy brits and french would get a pass
same with americans
they still would be dominated, but i think he saw their value...like with the vichy gov't. he didn't purify france of french, he attempted to turn them into german subjects
 
Spartacus said:
it's popular to call Hitler a dumbass for invading the USSR

but I disagree due to 3 major points

point one
in world war one the germans embarrassed the russians and pushed them around and stomped their ass

point two
when the soviets invaded Finland in 1940 they were again embarrassed with outnumbered and out-equiped Finns again stomping the superior soviets

point three
the germans and their blitzkrieg had excelled thus far in the war
Poland put up a good fight,but succumbed in a month

france with the help of the BEF fell in 6 weeks
but the battle of france was over in a month

the germans wiped out yugoslavia in 2 weeks
greece fell relatively easily too

so really Hitler had plenty of reasons to believe he could topple communist USSR in a two season campaign

not to mention his whole reason for starting the war was to expand Germany east and wipe out the bolsheviks/communists

it was a pan-european crusade against communism
with 1-2 million foreign volunteers joining the cause
Click to expand...


jugoslavia, the old one did not put up a fight in most parts. croatia and slovenia and hercegovina welcomed the german army as a liberating army.
 
Gambino said:
why is it sad though?
if hitler wasn't so anti-semtic i think his other accomplishiments would looked at in a different light...
Click to expand...


That's basically what I mean.


heatherrae said:
It wasn't just anti-semetism. He was bent on world domination. He admitted that he would never quit until he ruled the world. So, he had Germany on a course for destruction from day one.
Click to expand...

Hitler's minister of propaganda, Joseph Goebels, mentioned the same thing in his diaries, about "ruling the world". Although like Gambino said, physically taking over every developed nation even in that time would be next to impossible. The Germans were ambitious, but not stupid. A more rational explanation would be spreading nationalism, first and foremost in the place of communist controlled states.
A lot of Nazi Germany has been over-villainized. Historians (including some Jewish) have been debunking horror stories more and more as time goes on, concentration camp numbers being downplayed, etc. It was a chaotic time.

Hitler was convinced World War II would not have occurred had it not been for Jewish influence. Hitler regarded Germany's struggle with Great Britain and the United States as a disaster for western civilization and a triumph for Communism. He knew that President Roosevelt had worked with every available means to promote war in Europe prior to the English declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939. He did not believe that Chamberlain would have accepted war had it not been for the pressure from President Roosevelt. Further, Hitler did not believe that President Roosevelt would have worked for war had be not been encouraged and supported in his efforts by the powerful American-Jewish community.

Joachin von Ribbentrop, Between London and Moscow, Leoni, 1953, pp. 274ff.)
 
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Spartacus said:
http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=13


The Croatian 369th Reinforced Regiment

On the day of the German invasion of the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941, the "Poglavnik" (Leader) of the Independant State of Croatia, Ante Pavelic, met with the military and civilian leadership of Croatia to decide how best to support their German ally. All present were strongly in favour of the German attack, seeing the invasion as a battle between the progressive forces of Europe against the Communist forces in the East. All present agreed that Croatia should participate in the invasion alongside Germany. To this end the representative of the German military in Croatia, Edmund Glaise von Horstenau, was contacted.

Von Horstenau suggested that Pavelic prepare a letter to Adolf Hitler, offering the service of Croatian troops on the Eastern Front. Pavelic prepared this letter the following day, on June 23rd, 1941. In his letter, Pavelic explained to Hitler the wishes of the Croatian people to join the battle of "all freedom loving nations against Communism". Pavelic offered ground, sea and air forces, to be committed "as soon as possible" to fight alongside Germany. Hitler responded to Pavelic's letter on July 1st 1941, accepting the Croatian offer and thanking them for their service. Hitler was of the opinion that ground forces could be sent quickly, while air and sea forces would need a longer time to be properly trained and equiped. On July 2nd, 1941, Pavelic ordered that volunteers be called for from all branches of the Armed Forces of Croatia to join the struggle in the East.

The ground contingent of the planned Croatian formations was the first to be formed. The Croatians hoped for a total of 3,900 volunteers in order to form a regimental sized unit, but by the 15th of July 1941, 9,000 men had already stepped forward and volunteered for service! In light of such high numbers the criteria for acceptance was raised considerably.
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those my good man were the cream of the croat military. its a shame they were sent so far away when we had our own problems with croat communists raging in our backyard. my moms old nieghbour served there, in stalingrad and survived it all. i met him last summer but the affects of old age have diminished his mind .
 
heatherrae said:
Actually, he did intend to wipe them out altogether. He came out with a memoir after Mein Kampf [sp?] in which he clearly stated that he wanted to dominate Europe and then take on America. He stated that he believed that Americans were even genetically superior to the Germans because they were the brightest, most adventurous, and physically superior of all who came over here. He said that he wanted to do it right away before America became even more strong.

He held off from publishing the book for obvious reasons. He didn't want everyone in the world to know that his plan was so far reaching. He wanted the element of surprise.

Now, the book has been uncovered and discussed quite a bit as of late. Sorry that I can't recall the title. I saw it on the history channel.
Click to expand...
Your honor, basis....
 
Testosterone boy said:
javaguru said:
Reading/regurgitating and analyzing are different. I had to make a presentation,in a graduate level only class in arguably the best military history program of the time as an undergrad.This presentation was based on the multiple works I read. I recited "The Prince" in high school for my advanced history class and debunked it back then. His treatment of mercenaries is contradictory of real world results, they often performed better than resident conscripts. On the other hand, Clausewitz does define the western way of war. Go stick your dick up your ass. Don't fuck with me on military history or I'll make you my prison bitch......without lube.[/QUOTE]

You are pretty proud of studying history for reasons unknown to many.
Click to expand...
I'm a historian...read historical text in context as opposed to superficially and don't tell me shit unless you're educated.. Just sayin', Armchair retards are a dime a dozen...
Click to expand...
 
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heatherrae said:
It wasn't just anti-semetism. He was bent on world domination. He admitted that he would never quit until he ruled the world. So, he had Germany on a course for destruction from day one.
Click to expand...
Hitler wanted german hegemony over europe and to expand the german empire to the east at the expense of the soviets

he actually desired peace with the British and that's part of the reason he allowed the BEF to escape the continent at dunkirk

he did want to "clean up" the gene code and had numerous undesirables besides the jews
for sure he wasn't a saint
but he wasn't some goofy evil madman that ran around in his bunker hugging himself with glee over how evil he was

that's the shit you're taught in high school
 
domoljub said:
jugoslavia, the old one did not put up a fight in most parts. croatia and slovenia and hercegovina welcomed the german army as a liberating army.
Click to expand...
the germans encountered similar problems as us in Iraq
they blitzed through yugoslavia so fast and capitulated the govt that they didn't "get" enough time to really destroy the army in the field
and these unkilled men would eventually rise up and form a nasty partisan bunch under Tito
so nasty that even the soviets left Tito to himself

same as our experiences in Iraq
we sliced through saddams defenses the took out baghdad in what 3 weeks
most of the Iraqi army ran away

only for many to reappear with their booby trap war
it's not even much of a war per se
in history and measured against other wars/periods

Iraq is not a war,not even a guerilla war
it's a chciken shit booby trap and blow yourself up affair
 
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javaguru said:
I'm a historian...read historical text in context as opposed to superficially and don't tell me shit unless you're educated.. Just sayin', Armchair retards are a dime a dozen...
Click to expand...

You have a BS in history, you have told us at least 20 times.

Your veneer of having some class is thin.
 
Testosterone boy said:
You have a BS in history, you have told us at least 20 times.

Your veneer of having some class is thin.
Click to expand...
how do you get a BS in history?
mine is a BA, cause it is an art and not a science
 
Testosterone boy said:
You have a BS in history, you have told us at least 20 times.

Your veneer of having some class is thin.
Click to expand...
I never claimed to have class, I prefer to be classless. I have a BA in History.....I'm with Gambino, how do you get a BS in history?
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
That's basically what I mean.




Hitler's minister of propaganda, Joseph Goebels, mentioned the same thing in his diaries, about "ruling the world". Although like Gambino said, physically taking over every developed nation even in that time would be next to impossible. The Germans were ambitious, but not stupid. A more rational explanation would be spreading nationalism, first and foremost in the place of communist controlled states.
A lot of Nazi Germany has been over-villainized. Historians (including some Jewish) have been debunking horror stories more and more as time goes on, concentration camp numbers being downplayed, etc. It was a chaotic time.

Hitler was convinced World War II would not have occurred had it not been for Jewish influence. Hitler regarded Germany's struggle with Great Britain and the United States as a disaster for western civilization and a triumph for Communism. He knew that President Roosevelt had worked with every available means to promote war in Europe prior to the English declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939. He did not believe that Chamberlain would have accepted war had it not been for the pressure from President Roosevelt. Further, Hitler did not believe that President Roosevelt would have worked for war had be not been encouraged and supported in his efforts by the powerful American-Jewish community.

Joachin von Ribbentrop, Between London and Moscow, Leoni, 1953, pp. 274ff.)
Click to expand...
Well, really my original point is that a leader bent on world domination is a leader that is leading his country into ruin. There really are no positive things to say about what he did for Germany. In the end, his entire plan lead them into great destruction.

Discussing what he achieved for Germany is like saying "Yes, but I kissed the baby before I threw it into the barbeque pit."
 
heatherrae said:
Well, really my original point is that a leader bent on world domination is a leader that is leading his country into ruin. There really are no positive things to say about what he did for Germany. In the end, his entire plan lead them into great destruction.

Discussing what he achieved for Germany is like saying "Yes, but I kissed the baby before I threw it into the barbeque pit."
Click to expand...
What do you know about baby barbeque?
 
heatherrae said:
Well, really my original point is that a leader bent on world domination is a leader that is leading his country into ruin. There really are no positive things to say about what he did for Germany. In the end, his entire plan lead them into great destruction.

Discussing what he achieved for Germany is like saying "Yes, but I kissed the baby before I threw it into the barbeque pit."
Click to expand...


Wow. Do you have any idea what Germany was like before he came into the picture? I suppose not; they never taught that part in junior high. Catch em while they're young, for sure.
 
heatherrae said:
Well, really my original point is that a leader bent on world domination is a leader that is leading his country into ruin. There really are no positive things to say about what he did for Germany. In the end, his entire plan lead them into great destruction.

Discussing what he achieved for Germany is like saying "Yes, but I kissed the baby before I threw it into the barbeque pit."
Click to expand...
mein kampf has been "out there" since 1925 so your comments about it be newly discovered is flat out wrong
anyhow mein kampf was largely ramblings etc. and much like sports talk it contained a lot of "bullshitting"

in actaulity Hitler was not bent on world domination,just a uniting of germanic peoples into one tough ass country;


"Hitler makes arguments toward the old German nationalist ideas of "Drang nach Osten" and the necessity to gain Lebensraum ("living space") eastwards (especially in Russia).

In Mein Kampf, Hitler uses the main thesis of "The Jewish peril", which speaks of an alleged Jewish conspiracy to gain world leadership and also warns against the French. Overall, however, it does explain many details of Hitler's childhood and the process by which he became increasingly anti-Semitic and militaristic, especially during his years in Vienna, Austria. In one early chapter, he wrote about how for the first time in the city streets he noticed distinctively dressed Jews unlike those he already knew and then asked himself "Was that a German?" rather than "Was that a Jew?"

Mein Kampf has also been studied as a work on political theory. For example, Hitler announces his hatred in Mein Kampf toward what he believed to be the twin evils of the world: Communism and Judaism. The new territory that Germany needed to obtain would properly nurture the "historic destiny" of the German people; this goal explains why Hitler invaded Europe, both East and West, before he launched his attack against Russia. Laying Germany's chief ills on the parliamentary government, he announces that he wants to completely destroy that type of government.

Mein Kampf has been examined as a book on foreign policy. For example, Hitler predicts the stages of Germany's political reality on the world stage: in the first stage, Germany would, through a massive program of re-armament, overthrow the shackles of the Treaty of Versailles and form alliances with the British Empire and Fascist Italy. The second stage would feature wars against France and her allies in Eastern Europe by the combined forces of Germany, Britain and Italy. The third and final stage would be a war to destroy what Hitler saw as the "Judeo-Bolshevik" regime in the Soviet Union that would give Germany the necessary Lebensraum. The German historian, Andreas Hillgruber, labelled the plans contained in Mein Kampf as Hitler's "Stufenplan" (Stage-by-stage plan)."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf
 
Spartacus said:
mein kampf has been "out there" since 1925 so your comments about it be newly discovered is flat out wrong
anyhow mein kampf was largely ramblings etc. and much like sports talk it contained a lot of "bullshitting"

in actaulity Hitler was not bent on world domination,just a uniting of germanic peoples into one tough ass country;


"Hitler makes arguments toward the old German nationalist ideas of "Drang nach Osten" and the necessity to gain Lebensraum ("living space") eastwards (especially in Russia).

In Mein Kampf, Hitler uses the main thesis of "The Jewish peril", which speaks of an alleged Jewish conspiracy to gain world leadership and also warns against the French. Overall, however, it does explain many details of Hitler's childhood and the process by which he became increasingly anti-Semitic and militaristic, especially during his years in Vienna, Austria. In one early chapter, he wrote about how for the first time in the city streets he noticed distinctively dressed Jews unlike those he already knew and then asked himself "Was that a German?" rather than "Was that a Jew?"

Mein Kampf has also been studied as a work on political theory. For example, Hitler announces his hatred in Mein Kampf toward what he believed to be the twin evils of the world: Communism and Judaism. The new territory that Germany needed to obtain would properly nurture the "historic destiny" of the German people; this goal explains why Hitler invaded Europe, both East and West, before he launched his attack against Russia. Laying Germany's chief ills on the parliamentary government, he announces that he wants to completely destroy that type of government.

Mein Kampf has been examined as a book on foreign policy. For example, Hitler predicts the stages of Germany's political reality on the world stage: in the first stage, Germany would, through a massive program of re-armament, overthrow the shackles of the Treaty of Versailles and form alliances with the British Empire and Fascist Italy. The second stage would feature wars against France and her allies in Eastern Europe by the combined forces of Germany, Britain and Italy. The third and final stage would be a war to destroy what Hitler saw as the "Judeo-Bolshevik" regime in the Soviet Union that would give Germany the necessary Lebensraum. The German historian, Andreas Hillgruber, labelled the plans contained in Mein Kampf as Hitler's "Stufenplan" (Stage-by-stage plan)."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf
Click to expand...
You must have misread what I typed. I was talking about an unpublished work that was written by Hitler after mein kampf. Go back and reread what I wrote.
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
Wow. Do you have any idea what Germany was like before he came into the picture? I suppose not; they never taught that part in junior high. Catch em while they're young, for sure.
Click to expand...
Well, thank you for the insults. Who knew that Hitler would incite such rousing ferver in your little heart...lol. Yes, I'm an educated adult who is aware that he built nice roads and was an architecture nut. In the end, however, he destroyed the country and Germans to this day are ashamed of his reign of terror. Giving him any credit as a great leader is ridiculous. He was a butcher and a monster.
 
heatherrae said:
Well, thank you for the insults. Who knew that Hitler would incite such rousing ferver in your little heart...lol. Yes, I'm an educated adult who is aware that he built nice roads and was an architecture nut. In the end, however, he destroyed the country and Germans to this day are ashamed of his reign of terror. Giving him any credit as a great leader is ridiculous. He was a butcher and a monster.
Click to expand...
butcher's and monsters still have their positive impact
alexander, for instance, wasn't always nice about how he did things
neither was mohammed or stalin or mao
but to dissmiss their reigns entirely is emotion driven and not logical IMO
 
heatherrae said:
Well, really my original point is that a leader bent on world domination is a leader that is leading his country into ruin. There really are no positive things to say about what he did for Germany.
Click to expand...
the autobahn and the "people's car" VW to start
 
Gambino said:
butcher's and monsters still have their positive impact
alexander, for instance, wasn't always nice about how he did things
neither was mohammed or stalin or mao
but to dissmiss their reigns entirely is emotion driven and not logical IMO
Click to expand...
No, it isn't an emotional decision. It is looking at the end result of his reign. The country was in ruins, and is still embarassed by him. I feel the end result cannot be compared to Alexander. Alexander was far more effective a leader, even if he was completely egocentric, sexually ambivalent and delusional...lol.
 
heatherrae said:
You must have misread what I typed. I was talking about an unpublished work that was written by Hitler after mein kampf. Go back and reread what I wrote.
Click to expand...
Hitler didn't write any memoirs(he was sort of dead)
I beleive the book your talking about is just another "I was there with Hitler" book that's nothing but an opinion piece
and usually those are the typical "hitler was a bully and evil" tripe

if you really want to understand Hitler via the observations of a man who was there
read Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" or his "Spandau Diaries"
I read them both at age 14-15

Albert Speer was a genious
 
Spartacus said:
Hitler didn't write any memoirs(he was sort of dead)
I beleive the book your talking about is just another "I was there with Hitler" book that's nothing but an opinion piece
and usually those are the typical "hitler was a bully and evil" tripe

if you really want to understand Hitler via the observations of a man who was there
read Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" or his "Spandau Diaries"
I read them both at age 14-15

Albert Speer was a genious
Click to expand...
No, this one is by Hitler himself. If you think it is fake, that is one thing. But, purportedly by the historians who were featured on History channel, it exists. I didn't hear the story incorrectly and remember what was said very well. Perhaps google the story from the history channel for more info on what I am talking about.

I know the History channel is sometimes a piss poor source of info b/c they sensationalize it and dumb everything down, but they most certainly had a show about this unpublished book by Hitler and its contents.
 
heatherrae said:
Well, thank you for the insults. Who knew that Hitler would incite such rousing ferver in your little heart...lol. Yes, I'm an educated adult who is aware that he built nice roads and was an architecture nut. In the end, however, he destroyed the country and Germans to this day are ashamed of his reign of terror. Giving him any credit as a great leader is ridiculous. He was a butcher and a monster.
Click to expand...
the country got destroyed because they lost
but germany came damn close to winning
and if they had won germany would be a superpower equal to the US today

and there never would have been a 50 year cold war against the USSR
eastern europe would have prospered instead of being economically stagnated for half a century under the soviets domain

Roosevelt dies and the US govt makes peace with germany as does britian
it's right there in mein kampf how Hitler wanted to ally with the British empire

he hated jews and communists

the jewish people got the short end of the stick
which isn't unusual

personally I'm not anit-semitic
I've studied the 4 arab-Isreali wars starting with the war of independence in 1948
the jews kicked ass and I admire them for their tenacity
and I admire their successful business endeavors

hell my high school was 20-25% Jewish
 
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