r-ALA

[strangebrew]

Ok I had a few questions about this since im probly gonna order some. Is it good to take when bulking? I've only seen ppl talk about it when they diet. secondly, is it supposed to be taken every day or just on workout days? ill be getting about 4000-5000 cals a day so how many mg's should i take each day? thanks.

 

[scout420]

it sohuld be taken before meals especially high carb meals, and yes it is fine while bulking.I take it all year round.Well actually right now I'm using regular Ala I'll be ordering some more R-Ala myself soon

 

[kronk]

I take 300mg r-ala post workout and 100mg with every meal.

 

[Ulter]

What kronk said. But only take the 300mg if you drink carb drinks or shakes before or after your workout. This is highly recommended since the r-ALA will make your muscle cells take in more carbs and your training will go much better and you'll grow faster.

 

[Jguns]

I take 300mg r-ala post workout and 100mg with every meal

Post workout is the worst time to take ALA as studies show it inhibits glycogen repletion. Post workout, you have a short window to optimally replenish wasted glycogen stores. ALA will sabotage this..


Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.

Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.

Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.

alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin

 

[Ulter]

He's not using ALA. He is using r-ALA.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Post workout is the worst time to take ALA as studies show it inhibits glycogen repletion. Post workout, you have a short window to optimally replenish wasted glycogen stores. ALA will sabotage this..


Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.

Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.

Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.

alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin

i agree with this. i do as below:

Immediate post w/o:
1 1/2 serving surge (75 grams glucose/38 grams whey) NO r-ALA
glutamine and creatine

2 hours post w/o:
1 serving Mass Fuel Twinlab (100 grams maltodextrin/50 grams slow release protein) 3 or 4 r-ALA caps

then spread out about 4 or so more r-ALA caps with carb meals the rest of the day. this is for a moderate calorie lean mass cycle. maybe 1 or 2 caps with the 3 meals during the day after post w/o shakes....then a metrx APM 60 before bed with no r-ALA since no carbs.

 

[Ulter]

You can't compare what r-ALA does in the mitochondria to what racemic does. Racemic inhibits pyruvate dehydrogenase component in the mitochondria while r-ALA does not because it's a natural coenzyme for the mitochondria's function. Which means r-ALA is already present in the mitochondria naturally. When you add the s-ALA it interferes with the mitochondria's ability to produce ATP. Which of course means less energy. When you add r-ALA it boosts ATP production. Which means more energy.

I want the most explosive power I can get when I train. You will get that with r-ALA before your workout. Also you get to use carbs better.
Carb drink + r-ALA + weight training = big muscles.




Free Radic Biol Med 1999 Mar;26(5-6):685-94

The inhibitory effects of lipoic compounds on mammalian pyruvate dehydrogenase complex and its catalytic components.
Hong YS, Jacobia SJ, Packer L, Patel MS.

Zimmer G, Mainka L, Ulrich H. ATP synthesis and ATPase activities in heart mitoplasts under influence of R(+)- and S(-)-enantiomers of lipoic acid. Methods Enzymol. 1995;251:332-40.


Zimmer G. Overview of the role of lipoate in the enzyme complexes of energy metabolism and reducing equivalents. In Fuchs J, Packer L, Zimmer G (eds), Lipoic Acid in Health and Disease. 1997; New York: Marcel Dekker Inc, 67-86.

 

[Jguns]

He's not using ALA. He is using r-ALA.

So? The whole reason that racemic ALA is supposed to be better is due to its pro-oxidant action. That pro oxidant action is what is causing the decrease in glycogen synthase, as the abstract will attest to:

Antioxidant and prooxidant activities of alpha-lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid.

Moini H, Packer L, Saris NE.

Department of Applied Chemistry and Microbiology, PB 56 Viikki Biocenter, FIN-00014, University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland. [email protected]

Reactive oxygen (ROS) and nitrogen oxide (RNOS) species are produced as by-products of oxidative metabolism. A major function for ROS and RNOS is immunological host defense. Recent evidence indicate that ROS and RNOS may also function as signaling molecules. However, high levels of ROS and RNOS have been considered to potentially damage cellular macromolecules and have been implicated in the pathogenesis and progression of various chronic diseases. alpha-Lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid exhibit direct free radical scavenging properties and as a redox couple, with a low redox potential of -0.32 V, is a strong reductant. Several studies provided evidence that alpha-lipoic acid supplementation decreases oxidative stress and restores reduced levels of other antioxidants in vivo. However, there is also evidence indicating that alpha-lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid may exert prooxidant properties in vitro. alpha-Lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid were shown to promote the mitochondrial permeability transition in permeabilized hepatocytes and isolated rat liver mitochondria. Dihydrolipoic acid also stimulated superoxide anion production in rat liver mitochondria and submitochondrial particles. alpha-Lipoic acid was recently shown to stimulate glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes by increasing intracellular oxidant levels and/or facilitating insulin receptor autophosphorylation presumably by oxidation of critical thiol groups present in the insulin receptor beta-subunit. Whether alpha-lipoic acid and/or dihydrolipoic acid-induced oxidative protein modifications contribute to their versatile effects observed in vivo warrants further investigation.


It can't be both ways...

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

You can't compare what r-ALA does in the mitochondria to what racemic does. Racemic inhibits pyruvate dehydrogenase component in the mitochondria while r-ALA does not because it's a natural coenzyme for the mitochondria's function. Which means r-ALA is already present in the mitochondria naturally. When you add the s-ALA it interferes with the mitochondria's ability to produce ATP. Which of course means less energy. When you add r-ALA it boosts ATP production. Which means more energy.

I want the most explosive power I can get when I train. You will get that with r-ALA before your workout. Also you get to use carbs better.
Carb drink + r-ALA + weight training = big muscles.




Free Radic Biol Med 1999 Mar;26(5-6):685-94

The inhibitory effects of lipoic compounds on mammalian pyruvate dehydrogenase complex and its catalytic components.
Hong YS, Jacobia SJ, Packer L, Patel MS.

Zimmer G, Mainka L, Ulrich H. ATP synthesis and ATPase activities in heart mitoplasts under influence of R(+)- and S(-)-enantiomers of lipoic acid. Methods Enzymol. 1995;251:332-40.


Zimmer G. Overview of the role of lipoate in the enzyme complexes of energy metabolism and reducing equivalents. In Fuchs J, Packer L, Zimmer G (eds), Lipoic Acid in Health and Disease. 1997; New York: Marcel Dekker Inc, 67-86.

personally i just don't want to mess with the post w/o sugar insulin spike effect. that is just my personal opinion though. i could be right or wrong....r-ALA may help or hinder for all i know. i just never use it immediately after the workout. i take no carbs, only protein pre w/o so that is something i can't comment on.

 

[Ulter]

"So?"

I answered that before you posted.

 

[Ulter]

If you are not taking carbs during or pre work out you are making a mistake. Just try it. Take r-ALA, Phuck you got 12 bottles might as well, with something like gatorade and drink the gatorade throughout your workout. Just a couple weeks what do you have to lose?

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

If you are not taking carbs during or pre work out you are making a mistake. Just try it. Take r-ALA, Phuck you got 12 bottles might as well, with something like gatorade and drink the gatorade throughout your workout. Just a couple weeks what do you have to lose?

i actually was taking accelerade and whey pre w/o before my 3 month cutter cycle. now that i am on a lean mass caloric schedule, i can work in some carbs. i was thinking about that the other day. i think i might pick up the accelerade at work this weekend and start using it the next go round after my two days off coming up here. i am still in the "fat burning during w/o" frame of mind with the whey only. lol. forgot about the carbs. matter of fact i got ultra fuel by twinlab here and i can use that in the meanwhile.......BTW: got the shipment next day using 3 day ups option. even though i had to pay sales tax.....win some and lose some. lol.

 

[Ulter]

Next time use ground it's still next day.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Next time use ground it's still next day.

i didn't trust them biotches to get it here next day with standard even though i figured it would work.

 

[Jguns]

k\"So?"

I answered that before you posted.

I must be missing that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...6&dopt=Abstract

The whole basis for the increased cellular glucose uptake caused by ALA is due to its pro-oxidant action, this is what you are saying makes rALA so effective:

"alpha-Lipoic acid was recently shown to stimulate glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes by increasing intracellular oxidant levels and/or facilitating insulin receptor autophosphorylation presumably by oxidation of critical thiol groups present in the insulin receptor beta-subunit"

This pro-oxidant action is what is causing the decrease in glycogen synthase, as the earlier abstract described. I don't know what else to say

 

[macrophage69alpha]

I must be missing that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...6&dopt=Abstract

The whole basis for the increased cellular glucose uptake caused by ALA is due to its pro-oxidant action, this is what you are saying makes rALA so effective:

"alpha-Lipoic acid was recently shown to stimulate glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes by increasing intracellular oxidant levels and/or facilitating insulin receptor autophosphorylation presumably by oxidation of critical thiol groups present in the insulin receptor beta-subunit"

This pro-oxidant action is what is causing the decrease in glycogen synthase, as the earlier abstract described. I don't know what else to say

what do these workds mean in the science game

and/or

presumably

not a whole lot..