Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below GH junk? Clomid blows? Please clarify bro, because I've seen some pretty amazing transformations (fat loss that is) with GH. And if clomid blows what do you suggest for post cycle? I know HCG+nolv isn't a bad way to go on more suppressive cycles, but saying clomid blows seems a little extreme.....
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Older cycles....older results
- Thread starter BigPapaPump
- Start date
To answer the original question......I have tried about everything out there over the last 25 years, but when I want to be damn sure to get predictable results I always come back to the same stack. Test/deca/dbol.
If you have been at this for 18 years, BPP, then you are no kid either. For this old man, GH has been an extremely effective addition to my anti-aging arsenal. Somewhere in my forty's, it became near impossible for me to stay big and lean at the same time. GH changed this for me. I don't think I've ever been better!
Yes, McBane, Nelson is extreme. Extreme sells books....more power to him.
If you have been at this for 18 years, BPP, then you are no kid either. For this old man, GH has been an extremely effective addition to my anti-aging arsenal. Somewhere in my forty's, it became near impossible for me to stay big and lean at the same time. GH changed this for me. I don't think I've ever been better!
Yes, McBane, Nelson is extreme. Extreme sells books....more power to him.
I agree on the "Clomid blows" bit. I've never broken out so bad before in my life! I still have plenty of clomid that I don't think I'll ever use again. And, I'm 30...not 18, and I don't have an acne problem, never did. I broke out all over my shoulders and upper back with clomid. I guess I'll try nolva as a gainskeeper and natural test jumpstart next time.
I understand that ironmaster that he is extreme but I just think that he should make it clear that his advice is extreme, I mean he's got quite a following here and I must say there are some things he states as facts that are very very questionable. I think these boards should be used as places to get facts across....not comprimise people's cycles by trying to sell books.
Bro you have to realize the acne is prob from the hormone crash after the cycle, not the clomid. Too many people fail to realize this. When you have large fluctuations in hormone levels acne can result, it just so happens that you are taking clomid at the time to try to stimulate LH, FSH and testosterone production in an attempt to return to homeostasis. Go use nolvadex and I am willing to bet you still get acne post cycle because of the reasons I just listed.ceo said:
Nothing I say is compromised in order to sell books. But I will not compromise in order to make more people happy. I say what I believe and I believe what I say and it's always based on real world evidence.
I have addressed the issue of Clomid and GH, in depth, several times on this board.
I have addressed the issue of Clomid and GH, in depth, several times on this board.
Bro, no offense but that is sort of impossible. I mean if you are selling something, you are partial to it, whether it be consciously or unconsciously. That's just human nature.Nelson Montana said:
In terms of clomid, I've seen you state before that you think that clomid does nothing for post cycle and it seemed as if you were saying there is no need for post cycle meds..well I am curious because it has been proven that clomid does raise LH and FSH levels which aids in recovery..so I fail to see how it "blows"
Just to back up my above statement that clomid is useful post cycle. Although I must admit I did not find these refs on my own, came from good old Dr. Evil 
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5
Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.
Winters SJ, Troen P.
To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.
J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63
The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.
Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.
Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.
Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.
Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22
Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?
Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.
Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.
Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4
Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.
Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.
Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.
The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.
__________________
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5
Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.
Winters SJ, Troen P.
To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.
J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63
The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.
Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.
Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.
Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.
Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22
Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?
Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.
Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.
Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4
Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.
Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.
Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.
The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.
__________________
Another
Fertil Steril 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5 Related Articles, Links
Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.
Tan RS, Vasudevan D.
Programs in Geriatrics and Andrology, Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas, USA
To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.Case report.University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.A 30-year-old male.Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.
Fertil Steril 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5 Related Articles, Links
Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.
Tan RS, Vasudevan D.
Programs in Geriatrics and Andrology, Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas, USA
To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.Case report.University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.A 30-year-old male.Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.
