Macro, Huck, et al: Best compounds to optimize insulin on a bulking 'phase'

[Frackal]

I'm pretty undecided about the best way to approach this, so here it is:

You may view my full plan in it's entirety in the training journal forum, but here are the basics:

-I will be bulking up with an excess of 6,000 calories following a very low carb / low calorie cutting phase.

-I use ox in moderate dosages in the morning a couple hours before workout so I will be loading with between 25-40 grams of creatine per day, every day on this phase. Loading will be done with dextrose/creatine/protein/rice milk, post-workout on w/o days and first thing in the morning on regular days...1,000 cals

Most of us know (or should know) how truly important insulin is to achieve bodybuilding goals. My question or topic of discussion is the best compound(s) to optimize insulin while BULKING, not cutting.

I was excited to try metformin, but it seems the more I read that it is more ideal for a low carb diet than a bulking diet as it reduces gut absortion of some carbs....that leaves alpha lipoic acid as far as I can see as the prime choice....I have moderate experience with this stuff in the past but not enough to really decide if I like it or not....what do you guys think? Metformin better than ALA on a bulking diet? Something better than both of them?

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Metformin would be top choice.ALA in high mg amounts would work very well.I may take some flack for this,but I believe that vanadyl sulfate has some benefit in this regard as well.Of course there is always good old synthetic insulin as well,if your goal is to maximize this hormones influence on glucose/amino acid metabolism.

 

[Frackal]

Huck, for bulking you feel that metformin would be a more powerful and effective insulin mimicker/glucose disposal agent than alpha lipoic acid? Why is that? I thought it would be less effective because of it's carb blocking properties....I don't feel that I am an experienced or crazy enough athelete to use insulin yet.

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

Metformin would be top choice.ALA in high mg amounts would work very well.I may take some flack for this,but I believe that vanadyl sulfate has some benefit in this regard as well.Of course there is always good old synthetic insulin as well,if your goal is to maximize this hormones influence on glucose/amino acid metabolism.

Why not PHENFORMIN? Acidosis?

 

[CHAOS5000]

I've used the chinese phenformin, but not metformin. I found it pretty much impossible to bulk on, since it slows the emptying of the stomach. I was full for hours after a relatively small meal. Normally I can slam 6000 calories a day, but I was having trouble getting 3000. Great for cutting, but simply not practical for bulking IMO. Sounds like ALA is the best bet.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Actually YMK,that may be a viable option as well,I just have not been able to locate much data on it as opposed to glucophage,which is probably the #1 physician-prescribed med outside of synthetic insulin itself for diabetic abnormalities,but acidosis should be watched(through blood profiles)on glucophage(metformin)as well...Now that I think of it Frack,a slight amount of T-3 would also be very helpful,as it has very beneficial effects on increasing activity of GLUT-4(glucose transporter 4),which is a primary factor involved in insulin action.Outside of the possibility of acidosis,the only other thing I can see that might not be favorable is the possibility of IGF-I reductions with Metphormin,but who knows,these studies always condradict each other,lol...

Metformin does not adversely affect hormonal and symptomatic responses to recurrent hypoglycemia.

Fruehwald-Schultes B, Kern W, Oltmanns KM, Sopke S, Toschek B, Born J, Fehm HL, Peters A.

Department of Internal Medicine I, University of Luebeck, D-23538 Luebeck, Germany. [email protected]

Body weight gain and severe hypoglycemia are the major adverse effects of insulin therapy in type 2 diabetic patients. Metformin has been shown to prevent insulin therapy-induced body weight gain when used in combination with insulin. However, the effects of metformin on hormonal and symptomatic responses to hypoglycemia mediating hypoglycemia awareness have not been assessed to date. Fifteen young healthy men were treated with 850 mg metformin and placebo twice daily for a 16-d period in a double blind, cross-over design. On the last 2 d of the treatment period, the subjects underwent three hypoglycemic clamp experiments, with the first and the last performed with identical patterns of plasma glucose decrease. Differences between the effects of metformin and placebo (effect of metformin) as well as between first and last hypoglycemic clamps (effect of antecedent hypoglycemia) were assessed. Antecedent hypoglycemia significantly reduced epinephrine, ACTH, cortisol, glucagon, GH, and symptomatic responses to hypoglycemia (P < 0.05 for all variables). There was no detectable effect of metformin on epinephrine, norepinephrine, ACTH, cortisol, glucagon, or autonomic symptomatic response to hypoglycemia (P > 0.05 for all comparisons), except that metformin slightly increased the response of GH to hypoglycemia (P = 0.039). The latter finding may be due to an IGF-I-reducing effect of metformin, as after 14 d of metformin treatment baseline levels of IGF-I were significantly lower than in the placebo condition (236.9 +/- 13.9 vs. 263.2 +/- 14.4 microg/liter; P = 0.015). The data indicate that metformin does not adversely affect hormonal and symptomatic responses to hypoglycemia. This finding appears to be relevant with regard to the safety of the combination of metformin with insulin therapy.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Top drug choices:
#1-Insulin(obviously)
#2-Glucophage(Metphormin)
#3-Cytomel(T-3)

Top OTC supps
#1-Alpha Lipoic Acid
#2-Vanadyl Sulphate

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that pinitol(sp?)may be very beneficial in sensitizing the actions of insulin.Not sure of it's availability though.

 

[Fonz]

Top drug choices:
#1-Insulin(obviously)
#2-Glucophage(Metphormin)
#3-Cytomel(T-3)

Top OTC supps
#1-Alpha Lipoic Acid
#2-Vanadyl Sulphate

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that pinitol(sp?)may be very beneficial in sensitizing the actions of insulin.Not sure of it's availability though.

Hmmm.....

Scratch Metformin unless you want digestive problems.
On high cals it DOES cause upset stomach and vomiting.
trust me I've been there done that.
Dosages: The minimum amount for therapeutic effect
is 1700mg with a ceiling of 2550mg.
Cytomel is A-ok. It will increase protein turnover, therefore
increase the available protein for muscle
protein synthesis. 25mcg/day would be optimal. No need
to taper this dosage and can be run for 10-12 weeks safely.


ALA. Probably the best choice of the bunch(after obviously insulin
but thats just too crazy for me right now). It will increase glucose
transport by 40%, leading to a nutrient partitioning
effect which will favour muscle growth over fat storage.
Metformin, btw, only increases glucose disposal by 20% in
HEALTHY males.

I don't know if Huck knows this, but vanadyl Sulphate
interferes with amino-acid up-take into the muscle cell.
i.e. NOT good. Even the newer BMOV(2nd generation
vanadyl product) still interfered with amino-acid up-take.

YMK's choice is also a good one. Since phenformin is
10X stronger than Metformin, you only have to
take 170mg-250mg/day, which decreases the chances of getting
an upset stomach.

The only problem that can arise due to phenformin/metformin
is lactic acidosis which unfortunately is fatal in every case
unless you happen to be walking inside a hospital.

But, in order for this to occurr you'd have to drink enough
alcohol for 10 people+take an ungodly amount of the
biguanides Metformin/phenformin.

Hope that helped.

The best combo would be ALA+phenformin, as they
complement each other.



Fonz

 

[Trevdog]

I've used ALA and the chinese phenformin. ALA is very good at all times since it is also an excellent antioxidant which is both fat and water soluable.

The phenformin I would probably not take while bulking since it does lower the amount I can eat considerably. Since it slows gut emptying and acts as a partitioning agent, I think it is great for cutting. I have found that a dose of 150 mg. per day doesn't cause much stomach upset for me, but going over that causes upset stomach and diarreah (sp?).

My gut feeling was that the phenformin was more effective, but that may be because I was taking it in addition to the ALA, not in place of the ALA.

I get great pumps and increased vascularity when taking phenformin and ALA.

 

[Frackal]

This is some great info you guys, thanks....I'd obviously research the hell out of T-3 like I do anything I take but some quick questions on it:

1. How much of an increase in metabolic rate can I expect from a 25mcg/day dosage? I have quite the fast met. already.

2. What are the risks of using eca with this? I use ECA preworkout for any workout...I will only go off it when I'm on a cycle. (40mg ox 3-4 times a week is not a cycle =)

3. What type of thyroid supression do you think I would see using this for only 14-16 days at a time*?

4. Is it too much stress on your thyroid in your opinions to use T-3 for about 2 weeks and then use NYC 3x a day for 2 weeks back to back repeatedly? I wish to be relatively as cautious as possible.

It looks like ALA + phenformin is the best choice overall maybe combined with cytomel? If metformin does cause a difficulty digesting I can't have that as I already have a full ass stomach all day long.

In your guy's opinion, if I had to choose from T-3, ALA or phenformin, what would be the optimal choice?

*I am doing caloric whiplash cycling in an effort to greatly improve my body composition before my true test/eq bulking cycle which will take place *some day* when my schedule and expenses lessen a bit.