Liv-52(DS)....compared to milk thistle?

[jboldman]

Did you ask Fonz why it was "crap?"

Gee, I decided to stop taking something because some anonymous guy on an open BB says it is "crap!" Wouldn't it be nice to know why or perhaps it is just a vague feeling of it not working....

I can say that I have used it and it worked for me! (that is of course one man's opinion in an n=1 study!)

I asked fonz this question, and he said liv 52 was a waste of money, dont know how it compares to milk thistle though

 

[panerai]

4. Discussion and conclusionThese indian trials paint a picture of a positive herbal product. But this is not the whole truth,because Medline presents serveral papers in russian language, who tells us a story beingcompletely different.Mirov and Iunusova (1982) published case reports in russian language nearly 18 years ago outof the hospital of Penschikenta (in former USSR). It shows two case reports out of 7 patients(three patients with chronic hepatitis, four patients with acute hepatitis) who developed amassive Lyrell's syndrome (epidermiolysis acuta toxica or necrolysis epidermica orstaphylococcal scalded skin syndrome) within 9 to 11 hours after beginning of Liv.52 treatmentin regular doses. A second russian paper (Simochkina et al. 1989) shows also a case of Lyell'ssyndrome after Liv.52-treatment.A really shocking result was publicated by Fleig et al. (1997) and cited by Schuppan et al.(1999). Fleig et al. (1997) organised a randomized placebo-controlled clinical trial at theuniversities of Halle-Wittenberg, Erlangen-Nürnberg and the Royal Free Hospital in London.The team enrolled 188 patients with alcohol-induced, histologically proven liver cirrhosis andgave them 4 tabletts of Liv.52 (300 mg each) a day. At the follow-up 2 years later the all oversurvival rate was just 74,4% in Liv.52-treated patients but 86% in placebo-group and this resultwas nearly significant (p = 0,06)! Multiple logistic regression analysis showed a link betweenpatients compliance to Liv.52-therapy and mortality rate. The higher compliance (> 75%) was,the lower survival rate was!In my eyes, LIV.52 is a potentially harmful drug. It is not only hepatotoxic but a possible cancercausing remedy. Liv.52 contains Solanum nigrum (black night-shade). That plant is used in folkmedicine in Transkei (South Africa) as "Umsobo". Sammon (1992 and 1998) was able to showin two case-controlled trials, that consumption of that plant leads to an increased risk ofesophageal carcinoma. 20% of men older than 70 years die in Transkei because of esophagealof cancer. The elevation of the relative risk for developing esophageal cancer is 2,55 (Sammon1998) or 2,86 (Sammon 1992) in comparison to non-Umsobo-users. That risk is as high as therisk produced by tabacco smoking (2,69) like Sammon (1998) pointed out!As a non-physician my opinion is that LIV.52 is a health risk for people. It's side-effects aresubstantially underreported. Distributors of that cheap pill do not report any side-effect-investigations at all. Every physician dealing with patients should think of LIV.52-consumptionif he's confronted with Lyell's syndrome/Nicolau syndrome, hepatic problems of unknown originor even esophageal carcinoma.This year I`ll publish a german book dealing with all aspects of LIV.52 and other remedies. Itwill be published electronically also to give informations about that scene to the germanaudience in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.© Roland Ziegler, 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 9
- 8 -5. Literature cited:Chauhan, B. L., Kulkarni, R. D.: Effect of Liv.52, a herbal preparation, on absorption andmetabolism of ethanol in humans. Eur J Clin Pharmacol, 40, 189-191, 1991Fleig, W. E., Morgan, M. Y., Hoelzer, M. A.:The ayurvedic drug liv.52 in patients withalcoholic cirrhosis. Results of a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlledclinical trial. J Hepatol 26, Suppl., 1, 127, 1997Galitskii, L. A., Barnaulov, O. D., Zaretskii, B. V., Malkov, M. I., Konenkov, S.I., Gol`m,N. P., Tomakov, V. S., Ogarkov, P. I., Batskov, S. S.: Effect of phytotherapy on theprevention and elimination of hepatotoxic responses in patients with pulmonary tuberculosis,carriers of hepatitis B virus markers. Probl Tuberk, 4, 35-38, 1997Geller, L. I., Gladkikh, L. N., Griaznova, M. V.:Treatment of fatty hepatosis in diabetics.Probl Endokrinol (Mosk), 39, 20-22, 1993Jagetia, G. C., Ganapathi, N. G.:Treatment of mice with a herbal preparation (Liv.52) reducesthe frequency of radiation-induced chromosome damage in bone marrow. Mutat Res, 253, 123-126, 1991Kalab, M., Krechler, T.:The effect of the hepatoprotective agent LIV.52 on liver damage. CasLek Cesk, 136, 758-760, 1997Katari, M., Singh, L. N.:Hepatoprotective effect of Liv.52 and kumaryasava on carbontetrachloride induced hepatic damage in rats. Indian J Exp Biol, 35, 655-657, 1997Mirov, P. M., Iunusova, M. A.:Toxic epidermal necrolysis (Lyell`s syndrome) afteradministration of Liv. 52. Klin Med (Mosk), 60, 97-98, 1982O`Hara, P. J., Pierce, K. R.:A toxic cardiomyopathy caused by cassia occidentalis. I.Morphologic studies in poisoned rabbits. Vet Pathol, 11, 97-109, 1974aO`Hara, P. J., Pierce, K. R.: A toxic cardiomyopathy caused by cassia occidentalis. II.Biochemical studies in poisoned rabbits. Vet Pathol, 11, 110-124, 1974bPandey, S., Gujrati, V. R., Shanker, K., Singh, N., Dhawan, K. N.:Hepato protective effectof LIV-52 against CCl4 induced lipid perixodation in liver of rats. Indian J Exp Biol, 32, 674-675, 1994Prashar, R., Kumar, A.:Chemopreventive action of Liv.52 on DMBA-inducedpapillomagenesis in skin of mice.Indian J Exp Biol, 32, 643-646, 1994
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 10
- 9 -Roy, A., Soni, G. R., Kalhapure, R. M., Karnik, U. R., Patki, P. S.own regulation oftumor necrosis factor activity in experimental hepatitis by a herbal formulation, Liv.52. IndianJ Exp Biol, 32, 694-697, 1994Sammon, A. M.: A case-control study of diet and social factors in cancer of the esophagus inTranskei. Cancer, 69, 860-865, 1992Sammon, A. M.rotease inhibitor and carcinoma of the esophagus. Cancer, 83, 405-408, 1998Sandhir, R., Gill, K. D.: Hepatoprotective effects of LIV-52 on ethanol induced liver damagein rats. Indian J Exp Biol, 37, 762-766, 1999Schuppan, D., Jia, J.-D., Brinkhaus, B., Hahn, E. G.:Herbal products of liver disease: athera-peutic challange for the new millenium. Hepatology, 30, 1099-1104, 1999Simochkina, Z. A., Velikaia, L. A., Mikhailova, V. A.:A case of Lyrell`s syndrome. VrachDelo, 10, 91-92, 1989

 

[haxedout]

4. Discussion and conclusionThese indian trials paint a picture of a positive herbal product. But this is not the whole truth,because Medline presents serveral papers in russian language, who tells us a story beingcompletely different.Mirov and Iunusova (1982) published case reports in russian language nearly 18 years ago outof the hospital of Penschikenta (in former USSR). It shows two case reports out of 7 patients(three patients with chronic hepatitis, four patients with acute hepatitis) who developed amassive Lyrell's syndrome (epidermiolysis acuta toxica or necrolysis epidermica orstaphylococcal scalded skin syndrome) within 9 to 11 hours after beginning of Liv.52 treatmentin regular doses. A second russian paper (Simochkina et al. 1989) shows also a case of Lyell'ssyndrome after Liv.52-treatment.A really shocking result was publicated by Fleig et al. (1997) and cited by Schuppan et al.(1999). Fleig et al. (1997) organised a randomized placebo-controlled clinical trial at theuniversities of Halle-Wittenberg, Erlangen-Nürnberg and the Royal Free Hospital in London.The team enrolled 188 patients with alcohol-induced, histologically proven liver cirrhosis andgave them 4 tabletts of Liv.52 (300 mg each) a day. At the follow-up 2 years later the all oversurvival rate was just 74,4% in Liv.52-treated patients but 86% in placebo-group and this resultwas nearly significant (p = 0,06)! Multiple logistic regression analysis showed a link betweenpatients compliance to Liv.52-therapy and mortality rate. The higher compliance (> 75%) was,the lower survival rate was!In my eyes, LIV.52 is a potentially harmful drug. It is not only hepatotoxic but a possible cancercausing remedy. Liv.52 contains Solanum nigrum (black night-shade). That plant is used in folkmedicine in Transkei (South Africa) as "Umsobo". Sammon (1992 and 1998) was able to showin two case-controlled trials, that consumption of that plant leads to an increased risk ofesophageal carcinoma. 20% of men older than 70 years die in Transkei because of esophagealof cancer. The elevation of the relative risk for developing esophageal cancer is 2,55 (Sammon1998) or 2,86 (Sammon 1992) in comparison to non-Umsobo-users. That risk is as high as therisk produced by tabacco smoking (2,69) like Sammon (1998) pointed out!As a non-physician my opinion is that LIV.52 is a health risk for people. It's side-effects aresubstantially underreported. Distributors of that cheap pill do not report any side-effect-investigations at all. Every physician dealing with patients should think of LIV.52-consumptionif he's confronted with Lyell's syndrome/Nicolau syndrome, hepatic problems of unknown originor even esophageal carcinoma.This year I`ll publish a german book dealing with all aspects of LIV.52 and other remedies. Itwill be published electronically also to give informations about that scene to the germanaudience in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.© Roland Ziegler, 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 9
- 8 -5. Literature cited:Chauhan, B. L., Kulkarni, R. D.: Effect of Liv.52, a herbal preparation, on absorption andmetabolism of ethanol in humans. Eur J Clin Pharmacol, 40, 189-191, 1991Fleig, W. E., Morgan, M. Y., Hoelzer, M. A.:The ayurvedic drug liv.52 in patients withalcoholic cirrhosis. Results of a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlledclinical trial. J Hepatol 26, Suppl., 1, 127, 1997Galitskii, L. A., Barnaulov, O. D., Zaretskii, B. V., Malkov, M. I., Konenkov, S.I., Gol`m,N. P., Tomakov, V. S., Ogarkov, P. I., Batskov, S. S.: Effect of phytotherapy on theprevention and elimination of hepatotoxic responses in patients with pulmonary tuberculosis,carriers of hepatitis B virus markers. Probl Tuberk, 4, 35-38, 1997Geller, L. I., Gladkikh, L. N., Griaznova, M. V.:Treatment of fatty hepatosis in diabetics.Probl Endokrinol (Mosk), 39, 20-22, 1993Jagetia, G. C., Ganapathi, N. G.:Treatment of mice with a herbal preparation (Liv.52) reducesthe frequency of radiation-induced chromosome damage in bone marrow. Mutat Res, 253, 123-126, 1991Kalab, M., Krechler, T.:The effect of the hepatoprotective agent LIV.52 on liver damage. CasLek Cesk, 136, 758-760, 1997Katari, M., Singh, L. N.:Hepatoprotective effect of Liv.52 and kumaryasava on carbontetrachloride induced hepatic damage in rats. Indian J Exp Biol, 35, 655-657, 1997Mirov, P. M., Iunusova, M. A.:Toxic epidermal necrolysis (Lyell`s syndrome) afteradministration of Liv. 52. Klin Med (Mosk), 60, 97-98, 1982O`Hara, P. J., Pierce, K. R.:A toxic cardiomyopathy caused by cassia occidentalis. I.Morphologic studies in poisoned rabbits. Vet Pathol, 11, 97-109, 1974aO`Hara, P. J., Pierce, K. R.: A toxic cardiomyopathy caused by cassia occidentalis. II.Biochemical studies in poisoned rabbits. Vet Pathol, 11, 110-124, 1974bPandey, S., Gujrati, V. R., Shanker, K., Singh, N., Dhawan, K. N.:Hepato protective effectof LIV-52 against CCl4 induced lipid perixodation in liver of rats. Indian J Exp Biol, 32, 674-675, 1994Prashar, R., Kumar, A.:Chemopreventive action of Liv.52 on DMBA-inducedpapillomagenesis in skin of mice.Indian J Exp Biol, 32, 643-646, 1994
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 10
- 9 -Roy, A., Soni, G. R., Kalhapure, R. M., Karnik, U. R., Patki, P. S.own regulation oftumor necrosis factor activity in experimental hepatitis by a herbal formulation, Liv.52. IndianJ Exp Biol, 32, 694-697, 1994Sammon, A. M.: A case-control study of diet and social factors in cancer of the esophagus inTranskei. Cancer, 69, 860-865, 1992Sammon, A. M.rotease inhibitor and carcinoma of the esophagus. Cancer, 83, 405-408, 1998Sandhir, R., Gill, K. D.: Hepatoprotective effects of LIV-52 on ethanol induced liver damagein rats. Indian J Exp Biol, 37, 762-766, 1999Schuppan, D., Jia, J.-D., Brinkhaus, B., Hahn, E. G.:Herbal products of liver disease: athera-peutic challange for the new millenium. Hepatology, 30, 1099-1104, 1999Simochkina, Z. A., Velikaia, L. A., Mikhailova, V. A.:A case of Lyrell`s syndrome. VrachDelo, 10, 91-92, 1989

im burnt, but i think this meens its bad?

 

[jboldman]

I found 45 medline refereces overwhelmingly in favor of liv-52(those with abstarcts). Your report of the russian cases is very disturbing but it would be nice if there were a study that was statistically significant! It certainly raises questions but is not compelling enough to throw the baby out with the bath water. Am I reading t he studies correctly? Are there any other studies around that are well designed and significant?

 

[Raffaz]

Re: Did you ask Fonz why it was "crap?"

Gee, I decided to stop taking something because some anonymous guy on an open BB says it is "crap!" Wouldn't it be nice to know why or perhaps it is just a vague feeling of it not working....

I can say that I have used it and it worked for me! (that is of course one man's opinion in an n=1 study!)

Where does it say that i have stopped taking it??? If you actually read the stuff that Fonz has posted you would realise that he doesnt say stuff without backing it up with references. There was a thread about this afew days ago, so go take a look at it and make your own mind up.

Mick

 

[jboldman]

Sorry, did not mean to insult you, you were simply saying what fonz said. i actually read the stuff that fonz has posted re milk thistle and have been an active participant in that thread. I think we need to differntiate between posting an opinion along with a obtuse study done on rats that has very little bearing on human use. It is fairly easy to arrive at any opinion and find at least one study that seems to back it up. You need to look at the totality of the studies, look at sample sizes, methodology, and draw your own conclusions. I believe that fonz's comment was that "water does more than milk thistle!"(or words to that effect) clearly not true! I don't think we would be having this debate if fonz posted that ala seemed to be more efficacious than milk thisle based on the following studies! Instead he chose a more flamboyant method. There is a word for that, troll! Someone who posts in order to generate responses. Personally I think it is great! This is a subject that has more than a passing interest for most of us and it is healthy to debate the pros and cons of various supps. My hat is off to fonz and I hope he continues to post on similar provacative issues. I just hope that the readers are able to use critical thinking to wade thru the technical jargon and arrive at a reasonable conclusion for themselves and not just take someones word for it.