Let's talk oestrogen

[aquatic_glories]

One should always keep AI on hand.
My philosophy is different.. I prefer maximum lean gains to max gains.

regarding estrogen, I prefer maximum gains with minimal side effects again over max gains.

This isnt all about maximum gains. We have an important thing called health. I can easily sacrifice some of my gains for health. I act very carefully even though I havent gone over 500 mgs of test in my 3-cycle history.
However, I can easily tell from experience that estrogen helps gains visuably.
I was too careful in my previous cycle so that limited some of my gains.

Again, always keep an AI with you. Sometimes it can be late when you have problem with your nips. You know bad things always come together and I have witnessed people that couldnt find AI or didnt have money when they had estrogen problems. Luckily nothing happened.

I believe some AI should always be used once you go above a certain limit for aromatisable compounds. There is no specific limit for everyone, however.

 

[needtogetaas]

estrogen is not bad for your heath. Yes way to high can be bad. But estrogen is good for you health.

 

[aquatic_glories]

bro normal levels are necessary I agree.
but how can you except normal levels when even a newb uses at least 500 mg test in first cycle?
that s roughly 7-10 times the normal. How can you except normal levels.

Plus I would always prefer test to be high, not estro.

 

[Nelson Montana]

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I CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THIS THREAD!

Tat (hi tatty) makes a great point.

Anyone familiar with my work knows I've been a long time advocate of toning done the use of anti e's. And I absolutely HATE clomid and nolvadex. Clomid is useless and nolva should only be used if you get gyno -- which is totally AVOIDABLE.

needto touched upon the "good" estrones vs the bad. Without getting too convoluted, that's what calcium d glucarate (contained in POST CYCLE) does so well -- removes the bad stuff.

We all need estrogen! And yes, IT BUILDS MUSCLE. And it adds size. But much of that size is water -- which in itself isn't so bad since muscle is 90% water.

But here's where the whole "stop estrogen at all costs" comes in. The lower the estrogen, the "harder" the look. Because you'll carry less fat and less water. That's a touch topic to convince people otherwise. Nobody wants to carry a little extra water but during a cycle, IT ADDS SIZE, WEIGHT, STRENGTH AND MUSCLE. But realize, the reason cattle are given estrogen is because it makes the cattle weight more and it makes the meat more teder because it's more "marbled." In other words, it has more fat. It's also why women are softer than men and that's just fine with me. (As long as things don't get TOO mushy).

Tat, have you ever had your e and T levels tested? I wouldn't be surprised if your T was higher and your e was lower than the average lass. High estrogen is one of the reasons women have such a hard time tightening up.

And keep in mind -- Arnold, Zane, Draper, Sergio, Scott, et al NEVER USED ANTI E"S. They didn't exist. Nobody had gyno.

So the bottom line, like everything else, balance is the key. But when people indiscriminately use way more gear than they need, that's when they start shuffling to solutions to the problems they create. Gear use is simple, effective and safe...IF...you stay within the boundries. Estrogen is part of the balance.

 

[jacshelb]

I wouldn't say "nobody" had gyno. I know you didn't mention Columbu, but he had terrible gyno in 81 and others had a bit here and there around that time- sometimes pretty bad. But, you are making a point and I'm splitting hairs.

My thinking on it, like many others, is that estrogen should be controlled, not eliminated during a cycle. If I start to get gyno symptoms, put on fat in "strange" places etc., then it's time to take a bit of anti-e. Also, I do want to gain as little fat as possible. Don't get me wrong, I eat and I gain overall mass. But, the more of that is muscle, the less fat there is to par down later. I'd like to go into my next cycle as lean as I can, primed and ready to grow!

I know I may get blasted for this, but I have used a very small amount of letrozole eod during most of my current cycle. I just go by feel and use as little as needed, no more. I've put on 30 lbs with very little water and an acceptable amount of fat, all in 9 weeks or so. I've gotten the results I wanted.... within reason anyway.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I wouldn't say "nobody" had gyno. I know you didn't mention Columbu, but he had terrible gyno in 81 and others had a bit here and there around that time- sometimes pretty bad. But, you are making a point and I'm splitting hairs.

My thinking on it, like many others, is that estrogen should be controlled, not eliminated during a cycle. If I start to get gyno symptoms, put on fat in "strange" places etc., then it's time to take a bit of anti-e. Also, I do want to gain as little fat as possible. Don't get me wrong, I eat and I gain overall mass. But, the more of that is muscle, the less fat there is to par down later. I'd like to go into my next cycle as lean as I can, primed and ready to grow!

I know I may get blasted for this, but I have used a very small amount of letrozole eod during most of my current cycle. I just go by feel and use as little as needed, no more. I've put on 30 lbs with very little water and an acceptable amount of fat, all in 9 weeks or so. I've gotten the results I wanted.... within reason anyway.

I believe Columbo in 81 was the first obvious case of it in competition. That signals the start of the "too high" dosage era.

Estro is easy to control. Keep it between 10 and 20 -- no higher, no lower, and you're cool.

 

[Tatyana]

sorry Tatyana, as a non-plat I can't really read the graph you attached but I do know that high progesterone levels are one of the ways they look for ovulation in women who are experiencing fertility problems.

Maybe it's only the ratio of progesterone to estrogen that's highest during ovulation.

That makes more sense. If you want to see a graph, google images menstruation cycle.


Wiki has a nice graphic as well.

 

[Tatyana]

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Tat, have you ever had your e and T levels tested? I wouldn't be surprised if your T was higher and your e was lower than the average lass. High estrogen is one of the reasons women have such a hard time tightening up.

Numerous times.

These are my last results just before Christmas.

They are approximately mid cycle (that's menstrual cycle), so my oestrogen will be at it's peak.

LH = 12.4 U/L (1-10)

FSH = 10.3 U/L (1-10)

(mid cycle levels of LH and FSH may be higher than the range)

Total Testosterone = 1.5 nmol/L (0.2-3.5)

In American units test = 43 ng/dl or 432 pg/dl

Oestradiol-17beta = 282 pmol/L

In American units oest = 104 pg/ml

Progesterone = 24.8 nmol/L

In American units prog = 7.8 ng/ml or 31.5 ng/dl

Cortisol = 424 nmol/L (170-540 early morning)

In American units cort = 15.4 ug/dL

All pretty normal and they have been stable for years and years as I don't use any hormones, pro-hormones including birth control pills.

Anabolic steroids use in animals has been banned in the EU for close to 20 years, so I don't get any from that route either.

This also demonstrates that it isn't just the hormones that result in muscle hypertrophy.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Numerous times.

These are my last results just before Christmas.

They are approximately mid cycle (that's menstrual cycle), so my oestrogen will be at it's peak.

LH = 12.4 U/L (1-10)

FSH = 10.3 U/L (1-10)

(mid cycle levels of LH and FSH may be higher than the range)

Total Testosterone = 1.5 nmol/L (0.2-3.5)

In American units test = 43 ng/dl or 432 pg/dl

Oestradiol-17beta = 282 pmol/L

In American units oest = 104 pg/ml

Progesterone = 24.8 nmol/L

In American units prog = 7.8 ng/ml or 31.5 ng/dl

Cortisol = 424 nmol/L (170-540 early morning)

In American units cort = 15.4 ug/dL

All pretty normal and they have been stable for years and years as I don't use any hormones, pro-hormones including birth control pills.

Anabolic steroids use in animals has been banned in the EU for close to 20 years, so I don't get any from that route either.

This also demonstrates that it isn't just the hormones that result in muscle hypertrophy.

Yes, it isn't JUST hormones which detwemine muscle growth and fat content. Though your levels are in the "normal" range, they're also in the "favorable" range.

Steroid use in animals would not transfer to those eating the flesh. Eating 10 pounds of meat would be equivalent to swallowing a 1/4 cc of testosterone cypionate. It would do nothing.

No birth control pills?

Cortisol is a bit high isn't it? But intense training will do that.

I suspect you have more mitochondria than most people. For those who may not ascertain from her pics, Tat has very dense, yet lean muscle.

 

[Tatyana]

Yes, it isn't JUST hormones which detwemine muscle growth and fat content. Though your levels are in the "normal" range, they're also in the "favorable" range.

Steroid use in animals would not transfer to those eating the flesh. Eating 10 pounds of meat would be equivalent to swallowing a 1/4 cc of testosterone cypionate. It would do nothing.

No birth control pills?

Cortisol is a bit high isn't it? But intense training will do that.

I suspect you have more mitochondria than most people. For those who may not ascertain from her pics, Tat has very dense, yet lean muscle.

My cortisol is good for morning cortisol, which is when it is at it's peak.

I have taken it in the afternoon when I was training hard, cycling 13 miles into work, on a comp diet, and my cortisol was lower than this.

I don't get to take birthcontrol as I have a clotting disorder, well at least the genes for it, I may clot too much, so doctors are reluctant to give it to me.

It isn't that much of an issue, there are other forms and methods of birth control.