Is Winstrol making me heavier??

[Mr.X]

damn ,

I said it was going to be my last post but I couldn't resist .

Mr X , can't you just accept that you are wrong after all ?

I mean , it is clearly here that I was RIGHT and you are wrong .

Is that so hard for you to admit ?


Victor

why would I accept you're right because you have parroted your hero Jenetic as fact???? give me a break, when you two come up with some true facts, come back to the table.

Mr.X

 

[VictorBR]

why would I accept you're right because you have parroted your hero Jenetic as fact???? give me a break, when you two come up with some true facts, come back to the table.

Mr.X

>>> LOL , my hero , that was nice , ....and sad at the same time . Why is that he is my hero ? Just because I used his QUOTES ? I even said he is not god , just a person but a person who knows more than you about hormones and the human body that is for sure .

I wouldn't even need the studies to believe in his words instead of yours . I don't take his words as FACTS , no way , I don't even agree with him in a lot of things , but HERE , since I have my own EXPERIENCE and he provided solid FACTS , I will take his words over yours .

I gave you FACTS ( using his quotes ) , then you asked for studies , then HE GAVE you THE STUDIES .

Now you say the studie was done with old man and not bodybuilders. It Seems to me that you are never satisfied , as long as we keep the facts and studies coming , you will keep asking for more.

You can believe what you want.

But is is obvious here that you are already convinced that AAS can cause fat loss , but you will never admit it .

It is called EGO .


Victor

 

[Mr.X]

Great study on children. It doesn't even have the intention of investigating anything in regards to fat mass. I can cleary see how this would pertain to the discussion at hand.

Go read what I said again, it was an EXAMPLE of what your follower Victor should post, A STUDY.

It's easy to argue using bodybuilder studies. You know they don't exist. Good strategy though.

Who said they don't exist? Just because you can't find them on PubMed or are too lazy to go to the local Medical Library, it does NOT mean they don't exist. Also, just because YOU said so, it doesn't mean they don't exist. I was at the Stanford Library about 1mo. ago and at the UCSF one and I found a few studies that I thought were not possible to find before.

Also, you specifically use the dieting scenario to support your argument. It's obvious diet and exercise will be responisble for the large majority of fat loss in this scenario. The goal with oxandrolone ]/b]in this scenario would be to act as an aid in maintaining muscle mass through enhanced protein synthesis and possible glucocorticoid modulation. The following studies aren't the best, but they do indicate oxandrolone specifically with a reduction in total, visceral and subcutaneous fat mass.

That's right, you just proved my point: Body-fat loss will not be the direct consequence of oxandrolone (anavar), for oxandrolone (anavar) would be only an AID to helping retain muscle mass.

Treatment with oxandrolone and the durability of effects in older men

Yes this is REALLY applicable to 22-32 year old elitefitness members. If you know anything about the human make-up as we get older, then you would know that as we age our body responds to everything much differently then it did when we were younger. Thus, studies done on 60- to 87-yr-old men are NOT applicable

E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Kevin E. Yarasheski, Dajun Qian, Yolanda Stewart, Carla Flores, Carmen Martinez, Michael Terk and Fred R. Sattler

We investigated the effects of the anabolic androgen, oxandrolone, on lean body mass (LBM), muscle size, fat, and maximum voluntary muscle strength, and we determined the durability of effects after treatment was stopped. Thirty-two healthy 60- to 87-yr-old men were randomized to receive 20 mg oxandrolone/day (n = 20) or placebo (n = 12) for 12 wk.

Notice the dosage, 20mg PER day, not applicable to a bodybuilder at ALL

Body composition [dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), magnetic resonance imaging, and 2H2O dilution] and muscle strength [1 repetition maximum (1 RM)] were evaluated at baseline and after 12 wk of treatment; body composition (DEXA) and 1-RM strength were then assessed 12 wk after treatment was discontinued (week 24). At week 12, oxandrolone increased LBM by 3.0 ± 1.5 kg (P < 0.001), total body water by 2.9 ± 3.7 kg (P = 0.002), and proximal thigh muscle area by 12.4 ± 8.4 cm2 (P < 0.001); these increases were greater (P < 0.003) than in the placebo group.

That is correct, because when you're 80 years old! any steroids or AS are considered HRT (hormone replacement therapy) so all this is NATURAL, it happens to anyone that gets testosterone or any other HRT with AS.

Oxandrolone increased 1-RM strength for leg press by 6.7 ± 6.4% (P < 0.001), leg flexion by 7.0 ± 7.8% (P < 0.001), chest press by 9.3 ± 6.7% (P < 0.001), and latissimus pull-down exercises by 5.1 ± 9.1% (P = 0.02); these increases were greater than placebo. Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.9 ± 1.0 kg) and trunk fat (-1.3 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and these decreases were greater (P < 0.001) than placeboTwelve weeks after oxandrolone was discontinued (week 24), the increments in LBM and muscle strength were no longer different from baseline (P > 0.15). However, the decreases in total and trunk fat were sustained (-1.5 ± 1.8, P = 0.001 and -1.0 ± 1.1 kg, P < 0.001, respectively). Thus oxandrolone induced short-term improvements in LBM, muscle area, and strength, while reducing whole body and trunk adiposity. Anabolic improvements were lost 12 wk after discontinuing oxandrolone, whereas improvements in fat mass were largely sustained.

This study didn't even talk about their diet or workout, for all I know they starved them on 2 cups of veggies a day. Waste of my time reading it.....again, studies on athletes would the applicable on elitefitness not old me.

Effects of Androgen Therapy on Adipose Tissue and Metabolism in Older Men

Again, old men, again it's HRT

E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Michelle D. Ong, Carmen Martinez, Carla Flores, Yolanda Stewart, Colleen Azen and Fred R. Sattler

We investigated the effects of oxandrolone on regional fat compartments and markers of metabolism. Thirty-two 60- to 87-yr-old men (body mass index,

Again, studies done on 60- to 87-yr-old men

28.1 ± 3.4 kg/m2) were randomized to oxandrolone (20 mg/d; n = 20) or matching placebo (n = 12) treatment for 12 wk. Oxandrolone reduced total (–1.8 ± 1.0 kg; P < 0.001), trunk (–1.2 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and appendicular (–0.6 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001) fat, as determined by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry. The changes in total and trunk fat were greater (P < 0.001) than the changes with placebo. By magnetic resonance imaging, visceral adipose tissue decreased (–20.9 ± 12 cm2; P < 0.001), abdominal sc adipose tissue (SAT) declined (–10.7 ± 12.1 cm2; P = 0.043), the ratio VAT/SAT declined from 0.57 ± 0.23 to 0.49 ± 0.19 (P = 0.002), and proximal and distal thigh SC fat declined [–8.3 ± 6.7 cm2 (P < 0.001) and –2.2 ± 3.0 kg (P = 0.004), respectively]. Changes in proximal and distal thigh SC fat with oxandrolone were different than with placebo (P = 0.018 and P = 0.059). A marker of insulin sensitivity (quantitative insulin sensitivity check index) improved with oxandrolone by 0.0041 ± 0.0071 (P = 0.018) at study wk 12. Changes in total fat, abdominal SAT, and proximal extremity SC fat were correlated with changes in fasting insulin from baseline to study wk 12 (r 0.45; P < 0.05).

Looks like they lowered the carb intake here.

Losses of total fat and SAT were greater in men with baseline testosterone of 10.4 nmol/liter or less ( 300 ng/dl) than in those with higher levels [–2.5 ± 1.1 vs. –1.5 ± 0.8 kg (P = 0.036) and –24.1 ± 14.3 vs. –2.9 ± 21.3 cm2 (P = 0.03), respectively].

There you go, HRT only, the changes in men with MORE testosterone are much different then their claimed baseline.

******************

This convesation is trully not going anywhere, all I keep getting is anecdotal and guru evidence instead of factual evidence.

Mr.X

 

[duke of earl]

I have no opinion either way - this study but this is interesting

1: Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1995 Sep;19(9):614-24. Related Articles, Links


Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Lovejoy JC, Bray GA, Greeson CS, Klemperer M, Morris J, Partington C, Tulley R.

Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70808-4124, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of testosterone enanthate (TE), anabolic steroid (AS) or placebo (PL) on regional fat distribution and health risk factors in obese middle-aged men undergoing weight loss by dietary means. DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, carried out for 9 months with primary assessments at 3 month intervals. Due to adverse blood lipid changes, the AS group was switched from oral oxandrolone (ASOX) to parenteral nandrolone decaoate (ASND) after the 3 month assessment point. SUBJECTS: Thirty healthy, obese men, aged 40-60 years, with serum testosterone (T) levels in the low-normal range (2-5 ng/mL). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Abdominal fat distribution and thigh muscle volume by CT scan, body composition by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), insulin sensitivity by the Minimal Model method, blood lipids, blood chemistry, blood pressure, thyroid hormones and urological parameters. RESULTS: After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group compared to the TE and PL groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. There were significant main effects of treatment at 3 months on serum T and free T (increased in the TE group and decreased in the ASOX group) and on thyroid hormone parameters (T4 and T3 resin uptake significantly decreased in the ASOX group compared with the other two groups). There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased high muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease. Neither TE nor AS treatment resulted in any change in urologic parameters. CONCLUSIONS: Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE (testosterone enanthate) and ASND(nandrolone decanoate aka deca) injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors were due to weight loss per se. These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8574271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Mr.X]

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Again, the same problem, it's done on OBESE OLD men. However, a good post to say the least, nice to see others join in on the conversation

Mr.X

 

[roidpuple]

Victor,

In this situation, I have seen studies for minor factors, but for subcutaneous fat, I have never seen any. Again, "I'd like to see a study done on a bodybuilder (HUMAN) that shows the decrease of subcutaneous fat due to the use of Anavar - same for visceral fat. However, to me, visceral fat, which is the fat buried beneath the muscles is NOT as important as the Sub-Q bodyfat due to the obvious cosmetic nature of this particular question (not a health question). "

Quoting someone's "views" is not a good way to represent a point and is VERY misleading.

Mr.X[/QUOte
so what fat is being targeted then would you say???
subcutaneous fat ( fat under the skin) so where do you think they are losing the fat what kind of fat are they losing??

So what Fat is being targeted?? if not subcbcutaneous???

 

[Mr.X]

So what Fat is being targeted?? if not subcbcutaneous???

I'd like to see a study done on a bodybuilder (HUMAN) that shows the decrease of subcutaneous fat due to the use of Anavar - same for visceral fat. However, to me, visceral fat, which is the fat buried beneath the muscles is NOT as important as the Sub-Q bodyfat due to the obvious cosmetic nature of this particular question (not a health question).

In fact, "Visceral fat can go largely unnoticed because it’s not visible to the naked eye. In fact, the only effective way researchers can locate visceral fat is by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), which uses magnetic waves to take a picture of the inside of the abdomen. Researchers can use this picture to estimate the amount of visceral fat a person is carrying." Source: 2003 Elsevier Science.

Thus, even IF the case for VS fat was true, it's not applicable to the issue at hand.

Mr.X

Basically, I have seen some minor things about Visceral fat.

Mr.X

 

[Jenetic]

Androgens DO NOT have effects on lipolysis, it's not a fact, it's BS you're putting forward without true facts. When you come back with studies on athletes or bodybuilders to back your point we can talk, for now you're wasting my time.

Androgens do have a siginificant relationship to lipolysis through both traditional and non traditional pathaways. This is textbook physiology and biochemistry that is taught at the undergraduate level.

Direct effects of sex steroid hormones on adipose tissues and obesity.

Mayes JS, Watson GH.

Center for Health Sciences, Oklahoma State University, Tulsa, OK 74107-1898, USA.

Sex steroid hormones are involved in the metabolism, accumulation and distribution of adipose tissues. It is now known that oestrogen receptor, progesterone receptor and androgen receptor exist in adipose tissues, so their actions could be direct. Sex steroid hormones carry out their function in adipose tissues by both genomic and nongenomic mechanisms. In the genomic mechanism, the sex steroid hormone binds to its receptor and the steroid-receptor complex regulates the transcription of given genes. Leptin and lipoprotein lipase are two key proteins in adipose tissues that are regulated by transcriptional control with sex steroid hormones. In the nongenomic mechanism, the sex steroid hormone binds to its receptor in the plasma membrane, and second messengers are formed. This involves both the cAMP cascade and the phosphoinositide cascade. Activation of the cAMP cascade by sex steroid hormones would activate hormone-sensitive lipase leading to lipolysis in adipose tissues. In the phosphoinositide cascade, diacylglycerol and inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate are formed as second messengers ultimately causing the activation of protein kinase C. Their activation appears to be involved in the control of preadipocyte proliferation and differentiation. In the presence of sex steroid hormones, a normal distribution of body fat exists, but with a decrease in sex steroid hormones, as occurs with ageing or gonadectomy, there is a tendency to increase central obesity, a major risk for cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes and certain cancers. Because sex steroid hormones regulate the amount and distribution of adipose tissues, they or adipose tissue-specific selective receptor modulators might be used to ameliorate obesity. In fact, hormone replacement therapy in postmenopausal women and testosterone replacement therapy in older men appear to reduce the degree of central obesity. However, these therapies have numerous side effects limiting their use, and selective receptor modulators of sex steroid hormones are needed that are more specific for adipose tissues with fewer side effects.

Jenetic

 

[Paulo]

The effects of androgens on the regulation of lipolysis in adipose precursor cells

X Xu, G De Pergola and P Bjorntorp
Wallenberg Laboratory, Sahlgren's Hospital, University of Goteborg, Sweden.


Adipose precursor cells were exposed in primary culture to testosterone (T) or dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and their effects on the regulation of lipolysis were studied. T, but not DHT, stimulated catecholamine-induced lipolysis in a dose-dependent manner, including physiological concentrations. The effect was equally pronounced with isoproterenol (a pure beta-adrenergic agonist) and norepinephrine (a mixed alpha 2- and beta-adrenergic agonist). The higher lipolytic capacity of catecholamines on T-treated cells was paralleled by a similar increase in the number of beta-adrenoceptors in the cells, without a change in the receptor affinity, suggesting that T induced new synthesis or externalization of beta-adrenoceptors. Both T and DHT stimulated forskolin-induced lipolysis, suggesting an androgen effect at the level of the catalytic subunit of adenylate cyclase. The pertussis toxin-stimulated lipolysis was not influenced by the presence of androgens in the culture medium, and no effect was seen on the antilipolytic effect of insulin. These effects did not disappear in the presence of an aromatase inhibitor, suggesting that the T effects were not mediated by conversion to estrogens. These cells showed specific saturable binding for androgens, with a Kd in the range of androgen concentrations shown to be active. In conclusion, androgens enhance the lipolytic capacity of these cells by increasing the apparent number of beta-adrenoceptors (T only) and the activity of adenylate cyclase (both T and DHT). These changes are not mediated by conversion to estrogens. These effects probably occur via binding to specific androgen receptors.

 

[Jenetic]

This study didn't even talk about their diet or workout, for all I know they starved them on 2 cups of veggies a day. Waste of my time reading it.....again, studies on athletes would the applicable on elitefitness not old me.

Looks like they lowered the carb intake here.

Just give it up Mr.X. You are starting to really embarass yourself this time. Once again, textbook undergraduate education.

The adipose tissue metabolism: role of testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone.

De Pergola G.

Istituto di Clinica Medica, Endocrinologia e Malattie Metaboliche dell'Universita di Bari, Policlinico di Bari, Italy. [email protected]

Testosterone (T) and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) are fat-reducing hormones, even though they exert this effect by different mechanisms. In particular, T inhibits lipid uptake and lipoprotein-lipase (LDL) activity in adipocytes, and stimulates lipolysis by increasing the number of lipolytic beta-adrenergic receptors. An indirect sign of these effects is the decrease of adipocyte leptin production. Lastly, T inhibits differentiation of adipocyte precursor cells. Concerning DHEA, this hormone does not seen to have any of T effects; however, DHEA stimulates resting metabolic rate (RMR) and lipid oxidation, and enhances glucose disposal, by increasing the expression of GLUT-1 and GLUT-4 on fat cell plasma membrane. The insulin-like effect of DHEA would be associated to a decrease of plasma insulin concentrations and, thus, to an increase of the molar ratio between lipolytic hormones and insulin.

Maybe you need to leave HARDCORE diet land and join us back in the real world.

Ignorance is bliss.

Jenetic