Is Winstrol making me heavier??

[Race car Driver]

Im on my third week EOD, when I started with it, I was 192 and now im
198. Is this because of the winstrol? I thouhgt i was gonna be lighter...

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mr.X]

AS doesn't actually make you "lean" - that's a common misconception. A lot of ppl. start winny/var thinking they will shed bodyfat, that's incorrect...those AS are recommended for cutting due to their ability to help you stay strong and hard while you are on a cutting diet (will help somewhat with muscle retention), but overall they have no bodyfat effect...none that has been directly proven at least. I suggest adding some T3/Clen and maybe some anti-Es like dex when you cut for best results.

p.S. winny CAN make you gain - I have gained on it before: about 4lbs. for me

Mr.X

 

[Dial_tone]

AS doesn't actually make you "lean" - that's a common misconception. A lot of ppl. start winny/var thinking they will shed bodyfat, that's incorrect...those AS are recommended for cutting due to their ability to help you stay strong and hard while you are on a cutting diet (will help somewhat with muscle retention), but overall they have not bodyfat effect...none that has been directly proven at least. I suggest adding some T3/Clen and maybe some anti-es like dex when you cut for best results.

p.S. winny CAN make you gain - I have gained on it before: about 4lbs. for me

Mr.X

DID EVERYBODY HEAR THAT?

 

[Apexx]

AS doesn't actually make you "lean" - that's a common misconception. A lot of ppl. start winny/var thinking they will shed bodyfat, that's incorrect...those AS are recommended for cutting due to their ability to help you stay strong and hard while you are on a cutting diet (will help somewhat with muscle retention), but overall they have not bodyfat effect...none that has been directly proven at least. I suggest adding some T3/Clen and maybe some anti-es like dex when you cut for best results.

p.S. winny CAN make you gain - I have gained on it before: about 4lbs. for me

Mr.X

perfectly said

 

[georgie24]

im an endomorph and can GAIN off winny. so yes its possible

 

[ericahls]

I gain atleast 5lbs if not more on Winny

 

[instant.muscle]

its all about the diet and cardio.

 

[initagain]

its all about the diet and cardio.

Exactly...You can do whatever cycle you want.You have to decide on what you want to achieve. Do you want bulk? DO you want lean mass? What do you want?

If you want lean mass dont look at the scale look at the mirror. I keep my protein high carbs low, and cardio an hour per day in the morning...

If I am going for bulk I dont do cardio and eat more carbs and up my protein more....

You have to develop a cycle, a diet, and a training plan....These are all key.

 

[VictorBR]

AS doesn't actually make you "lean" - that's a common misconception. A lot of ppl. start winny/var thinking they will shed bodyfat, that's incorrect...those AS are recommended for cutting due to their ability to help you stay strong and hard while you are on a cutting diet (will help somewhat with muscle retention), but overall they have no bodyfat effect...none that has been directly proven at least. I suggest adding some T3/Clen and maybe some anti-Es like dex when you cut for best results.

p.S. winny CAN make you gain - I have gained on it before: about 4lbs. for me

Mr.X

>>> NOt true at all , var has been shown in studies to decrease visceral fat and AAS in general , specially test is CATABOLIC to FAT CELLS - ADIPOSE TISSUE .

Without diet you will not get lean , but AAS can give you an edge ...




Victor

 

[Mr.X]

>>> NOt true at all , var has been shown in studies to decrease visceral fat and AAS in general , specially test is CATABOLIC to FAT CELLS - ADIPOSE TISSUE .

Without diet you will not get lean , but AAS can give you an edge ...




Victor

I'd like to see a study done on a bodybuilder (HUMAN) that shows the decrease of subcutaneous fat due to the use of Anavar - same for visceral fat. However, to me, visceral fat, which is the fat buried beneath the muscles is NOT as important as the Sub-Q bodyfat due to the obvious cosmetic nature of this particular question (not a health question).

In fact, "Visceral fat can go largely unnoticed because it’s not visible to the naked eye. In fact, the only effective way researchers can locate visceral fat is by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), which uses magnetic waves to take a picture of the inside of the abdomen. Researchers can use this picture to estimate the amount of visceral fat a person is carrying." Source: 2003 Elsevier Science.

Thus, even IF the case for VS fat was true, it's not applicable to the issue at hand.

Mr.X

 

[VictorBR]

well , I have seen the studies , if there is no point on dropping visceral fat , that is another thing ..

My point is that AAS in general will have a direct impact on your body' s abilitie to burn FAT .

" testosterone is very beneficial for fat loss,

Testosterone affects fat loss in one of two ways. Just like a car, your fat cells have a series of brakes and accelerators. The parts of a fat cell that accelerate the release of fat are called beta-receptors. The parts of a fat cell that put the brakes on fat loss are known as alpha- receptors.

The distribution of brakes and accelerators on each fat cell is one reason why certain parts of your body shed fat faster than others. Women, for example, often have a hard time losing fat from their hips. That's because the fat cells in that area have a higher ratio of alpha- to beta-receptors.

If a fat cell has more beta-receptors, it will release stored fat more quickly than one with fewer beta-receptors. That's where testosterone appears to help. By increasing the number of beta-receptors, testosterone makes it easier to lose stored fat. "


that was said by jenectic a while ago ... and I am a believer in this theory .


Victor

 

[VictorBR]

" There are many mechanisms behind the ability of androgens to reduce body fat. One key determinant of the amount of adipose tissue reduced is that particular androgen's ability to bind to the Androgen Receptor. Androgen Receptors are not only found in muscle, but they are present in adipose tissue as well.

The higher the density of Androgen Receptors, the more that lipid uptake is inhibited. Also, androgens that bind avidly to the Androgen Receptor cause an increase or upregulation of Androgen Recptors in fat cells. It seems that the greater the androgen binds to the Androgen Receptor, the more upregulation of Androgen Receptors in fat cells occur. Technically, this should lead to a significant reduction in subcutaneous fat.

In regards to Anavar, One study showed that oxandrolone induced an increase in Androgen Receptor expression in muscle. If you consider the information previously mentioned, it would makes sense that oxandrolone would be potent at reducing adipose tissue. Assuming that it is increasing Androgen Receptor expression in adipose tissue, this would fit perfectly in to the idea that a strong binding to the Androgen Receptor induces upregulation of the Androgen Receptor content in adipose tissue and thus leads to fat burning effects.

Technically, this would apply to androgens like Winstrol, Trenbolone, Masteron ect... "


>>> that is another quote from jenectic , and I will have to say that I firmly agree with this theory , AGAIN .

 

[VictorBR]

" Key Points:

1. Androgens have the ability to reduce body fat.

2. Androgen Receptors (AR) are present in body fat.

3. The higher the density of AR , the more that lipid uptake is inhibited.

4. Androgens that bind avidly to the AR cause an increase or upregulation
of AR in fat cells.

5. The greater the androgen binds to the AR, the more upregulation of AR in
fat cells occur which should result in significant fat loss.

6. It is possible that Anavar increases AR expression.

Hypothesis:

Assuming that it is increasing Androgen Receptor expression in fat tissue, this would fit perfectly in to the idea that a strong binding to the Androgen Receptor induces upregulation of the Androgen Receptor content in adipose tissue and thus leads to fat burning effects.

Basically, it is allowing the AR to be more productive/efficient which should result in more fat loss. "


>>>> Another one by jenectic . and for the third time , I will agree .


Victor

 

[Mr.X]

well , I have seen the studies , if there is no point on dropping visceral fat , that is another thing ..

My point is that AAS in general will have a direct impact on your body' s abilitie to burn FAT .

" testosterone is very beneficial for fat loss,

Testosterone affects fat loss in one of two ways. Just like a car, your fat cells have a series of brakes and accelerators. The parts of a fat cell that accelerate the release of fat are called beta-receptors. The parts of a fat cell that put the brakes on fat loss are known as alpha- receptors.

The distribution of brakes and accelerators on each fat cell is one reason why certain parts of your body shed fat faster than others. Women, for example, often have a hard time losing fat from their hips. That's because the fat cells in that area have a higher ratio of alpha- to beta-receptors.

If a fat cell has more beta-receptors, it will release stored fat more quickly than one with fewer beta-receptors. That's where testosterone appears to help. By increasing the number of beta-receptors, testosterone makes it easier to lose stored fat. "


that was said by jenectic a while ago ... and I am a believer in this theory .


Victor

I'm sorry Victor, this is not a study; plus, he talks specifically about "Testosterone" not anavar.

 

[Mr.X]

" There are many mechanisms behind the ability of androgens to reduce body fat. One key determinant of the amount of adipose tissue reduced is that particular androgen's ability to bind to the Androgen Receptor. Androgen Receptors are not only found in muscle, but they are present in adipose tissue as well.

The higher the density of Androgen Receptors, the more that lipid uptake is inhibited. Also, androgens that bind avidly to the Androgen Receptor cause an increase or upregulation of Androgen Recptors in fat cells. It seems that the greater the androgen binds to the Androgen Receptor, the more upregulation of Androgen Receptors in fat cells occur. Technically, this should lead to a significant reduction in subcutaneous fat.

In regards to Anavar, One study showed that oxandrolone induced an increase in Androgen Receptor expression in muscle. If you consider the information previously mentioned, it would makes sense that oxandrolone would be potent at reducing adipose tissue. Assuming that it is increasing Androgen Receptor expression in adipose tissue, this would fit perfectly in to the idea that a strong binding to the Androgen Receptor induces upregulation of the Androgen Receptor content in adipose tissue and thus leads to fat burning effects.

Technically, this would apply to androgens like Winstrol, Trenbolone, Masteron ect... "


>>> that is another quote from jenectic , and I will have to say that I firmly agree with this theory , AGAIN .

What study are you talking about here, jenectic is not a study it's a person, I'd like to see real studies JUST on anavar done with bodybuilders - as you mentioned before.

 

[Mr.X]

" Key Points:

1. Androgens have the ability to reduce body fat.

2. Androgen Receptors (AR) are present in body fat.

3. The higher the density of AR , the more that lipid uptake is inhibited.

4. Androgens that bind avidly to the AR cause an increase or upregulation
of AR in fat cells.

5. The greater the androgen binds to the AR, the more upregulation of AR in
fat cells occur which should result in significant fat loss.

6. It is possible that Anavar increases AR expression.

Hypothesis:

Assuming that it is increasing Androgen Receptor expression in fat tissue, this would fit perfectly in to the idea that a strong binding to the Androgen Receptor induces upregulation of the Androgen Receptor content in adipose tissue and thus leads to fat burning effects.

Basically, it is allowing the AR to be more productive/efficient which should result in more fat loss. "


>>>> Another one by jenectic . and for the third time , I will agree .


Victor

Again this is not an anavar study, just some guys' quote. To produce a valid point, you must provide valid studies.

Mr.X

 

[DIVISION]

Im on my third week EOD, when I started with it, I was 192 and now im
198. Is this because of the winstrol? I thouhgt i was gonna be lighter...

Thanks in advance.

Winstrol doesn't lean you out, it's heavily anabolic with a slight androgenic effect as well. It must be something with you diet.


DIV

 

[Mr.X]

For example, this article shows that growth was the most commonly associated factor with oxandrolone (anavar):

Pediatrics. 1976 Sep;58(3):412-22.


Studies of anabolic steroids: v. effect of prolonged oxandrolone administration on growth in children and adolescents with uncomplicated short stature.

Moore DC, Tattoni DS, Limbeck GA, Ruvelcaba RH, Lindner DS, Gareis FJ, Al-Agba S, Kelley VC.

A total of 130 patients with uncomplicated short stature (4 to 17 years of age) were treated with oxandrolone, 0.25 mg/kg/day, for up to four years. Oxandrolone therapy resulted in a two-fold increase in mean growth velocity in the first six months of therapy and was an effective growth stimulant for the full four-year period. There was no overall adverse effect of oxandrolone on post-treatment mean growth velocity or on skeletal maturation relative to height gain. There were 37 patients with greater increase in height age than bone age and 22 patients with greater increase in bone age than height age. Assessment of the contribution of oxandrolone therapy to the latter group is difficult because of inadequate methodology and the wide variation in individual growth patterns. Taken in their entirety, the data suggest that oxandrolone is useful in the prolonged treatment of uncomplicated short stature and is not associated with undesirable acceleration of skeletal maturation.

PMID: 183178 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
************

As you can see, the study clearly mentions musclegrowth and bone density not Lipolysis - neither Visceral nor subcutaneous.

Mr.X

 

[DIVISION]

My point is that AAS in general will have a direct impact on your body' s abilitie to burn FAT .

that was said by jenectic a while ago ... and I am a believer in this theory .

I gotta go with what Jenetic stated awhile back and what VicNugga brought back up.....

The anabolic environment is feuled by AAS, thus the body's thermogenesis is enhanced.



DIV

 

[VictorBR]

Just because that study doesn't show fat loss with var that doesn't mean it doesn't happen .

Yes , jenectiv is not god , he is just a a person , but he made some SOLID , and VALID points . IMO , that explanation is just as good as a study to prove that AAS in general , specially tesotsterone will help you lose fat .



Victor

 

[Mr.X]

Just because that study doesn't show fat loss with var that doesn't mean it doesn't happen .

Yes , jenectiv is not god , he is just a a person , but he made some SOLID , and VALID points . IMO , that explanation is just as good as a study to prove that AAS in general , specially tesotsterone will help you lose fat .



Victor

Victor,

In this situation, I have seen studies for minor factors, but for subcutaneous fat, I have never seen any. Again, "I'd like to see a study done on a bodybuilder (HUMAN) that shows the decrease of subcutaneous fat due to the use of Anavar - same for visceral fat. However, to me, visceral fat, which is the fat buried beneath the muscles is NOT as important as the Sub-Q bodyfat due to the obvious cosmetic nature of this particular question (not a health question). "

Quoting someone's "views" is not a good way to represent a point and is VERY misleading.

Mr.X

 

[VictorBR]

I see ,

but he made some very good points , that cannot be overlooked .

Whatever , I won't search for studies , to show you , to try to prove to you .

I simply believe that AAS in general can help you lose fat , can accelerate fat loss . A LOT of bros here that really know their shit already said that AAS is catabolic to adipose tissue .

I don't believe in this just because jenectic said , I believe in this because It happens to me . Whenever I am cutting without drugs , yes I lose fat , but then , when I am cutting with winstroll and equipoise , I lose fat almost twice as faster . And I always follow the same diet when cutting .

We just disagree , you don't think AAS can help you lose fat , I think it can .

And that is it .


Victor

 

[ogilthorpe]

I think its clear from the back and forth that if steroids affect fat loss (I'm not saying they do) then it is very marginal compared to the importance of diet. With all due respect to victorbr, I think from a practical standpoint Mr. X makes the big picture point that you cannot simply rely on steroids to get you lean-in the case at hand Winstrol. Diet, and for some cardio, is the major factor. People use steroids like Winstrol, Anavar, and Primo not as their sole source of fat loss but muscle retention during dieting. However, people have used dbol and deca to cut as well which just shows you that tradtional "bulking" steroids can be used to get ripped with a low calorie diet and cardio-you can also use Winstrol and Anavar to bulk-the latter of which I have done. The point: diet is the biggest and single most important part of your cycle, post-cycle, life.

Peace.

 

[Mr.X]

I see ,

but he made some very good points , that cannot be overlooked .

Whatever , I won't search for studies , to show you , to try to prove to you .

I simply believe that AAS in general can help you lose fat , can accelerate fat loss . A LOT of bros here that really know their shit already said that AAS is catabolic to adipose tissue .

I don't believe in this just because jenectic said , I believe in this because It happens to me . Whenever I am cutting without drugs , yes I lose fat , but then , when I am cutting with winstroll and equipoise , I lose fat almost twice as faster . And I always follow the same diet when cutting .

We just disagree , you don't think AAS can help you lose fat , I think it can .

And that is it .


Victor

This issue is not about personal experience, it's about facts - I have used both and in different situation the muscle retention during the cutting diet aided my fat-loss in the long-run; however, not one time did I really have a true thermogenic effect on my SQ fat, b/c it was obvious that my negative caloric intake (below BMR) was causing the fat-loss...plus cardio. To make general statements like Anavar or Winstrol will make you shed fat, you need supporting points such as studies; otherwise, we have a mix of parroting and anecdotal information that neither presents nor refutes any TRUE facts.

As the saying goes, anecdotal views are just that - anecdotal.

Mr.X

 

[Excidium28]

Im on my third week EOD, when I started with it, I was 192 and now im
198. Is this because of the winstrol? I thouhgt i was gonna be lighter...

Thanks in advance.

Why EOD, half life is only 9 hours split your dose into 2X ED...you'll break out less too.

 

[VictorBR]

oh well than we need studies for everthing , or else it is not true ...ok ..

2 + 2 = 4 .

why ? Because it is , we need no studies to suport this fact do we ?

This is my last post here since you are trying to prove me that we need studies to show us that AAS can help you lose fat . I don't need no studies to believe in this theory, I have jenectic's PERFECT explanation , I have real life experience , so I just believe and that is it . I think I have good reasons to .

If you need studies to believe in this theory , it is on you , hell even if you find the studies you can still not believe in it and I will not care , really .

Everytime someone post something that goes against my thoughts , I will say to them :

" this is not true unless you post some studies "

This is a very easy way to try to prove someone is wrong, I will say : " You are wrong because you have no studies to back this up "

I will tell them this line , always from now , EVEN if they are explaining PERFECTLY WHY they believe in the theory ( like I did using jenectic's quotes ) .

Are we done here bro ? This is getting old already .....


Victor

 

[roidpuple]

the thing with winny is the increase of hunger... plus you body increases redblood cells increasing you blood volume... so you cant really go by wieght it may be blood volume some and body weight tends to shift 2 to 3 pounds back and forth do you need to pee is your stomache empty.... if you did not change your diet and you are taking in the same amount of calories you will lose fat...while on winny. YOU will YOu will...but most dont keep track of this... so who knows if the gains are muscle or fat..

 

[Mr.X]

oh well than we need studies for everthing , or else it is not true ...ok ..

2 + 2 = 4 .

why ? Because it is , we need no studies to suport this fact do we ?

This is my last post here since you are trying to prove me that we need studies to show us that AAS can help you lose fat . I don't need no studies to believe in this theory, I have jenectic's PERFECT explanation , I have real life experience , so I just believe and that is it . I think I have good reasons to .

If you need studies to believe in this theory , it is on you , hell even if you find the studies you can still not believe in it and I will not care , really .

Everytime someone post something that goes against my thoughts , I will say to them :

" this is not true unless you post some studies "

This is a very easy way to try to prove someone is wrong, I will say : " You are wrong because you have no studies to back this up "

I will tell them this line , always from now , EVEN if they are explaining PERFECTLY WHY they believe in the theory ( like I did using jenectic's quotes ) .

Are we done here bro ? This is getting old already .....


Victor

Basically, in this situation all this is 2nd hand, parroted and anecdotal evidence - that's why I feel so strongly that it would not be used as factual information. You have your right to believe what you wish, so does anyone else...I'll agree to that.

yes, we are done, until further studies and factual evidence is provided by you, I feel that it's fruitless to go on with this conversation.

P.S. 2+2=4, but oranges don't = apples

Mr.X

 

[hrt39]

Winny makes me drop what little water my body holds. I get shredded on 100 - 150 mg per week, but I am lean to start with. It's hard for me to gain weight on winny, as water is so heavy. But, bottom line, if you eat a bunch of carbs that will hold the water (in your body) better, you could easily gain weight. It's probably all about the diet, as someone mentioned above.

 

[bullcocky]

Im on my third week EOD, when I started with it, I was 192 and now im
198. Is this because of the winstrol? I thouhgt i was gonna be lighter...

Thanks in advance.

The best advice that I can give on this is.....are you ready?

DONT GO BY WHAT THE SCALE SAYS........GO BY WHAT THE MIRROR SAYS

Now with this in mind, what is the mirror saying? my 2cents

 

[bullcocky]

If I am going for bulk I dont do cardio and eat more carbs and up my protein more....

QUOTE]

I agree with most of your statment; my rule is 1g per pound of body weight regardless.... but if you are cutting, you need at least 60-70g more of protien than when bulking to help retain most of your muscle. Lots of people think that getting cut is only about trimming off the fat, but it also involved the hard task of keeping hard earned muscle.

 

[carlsky]

Whatever! I took tren at 50mg./day and ate shitty ass food and lost 2 and 1/2 inches off my weight without even doing a little cardio! Tren burns fat like no other, I don't care if there is no proof, the stuff works! Imagine what it would be like if I was on a diet! Come summer boys, tren/test/winnie! I'll look amazing!

 

[Jenetic]

This issue is not about personal experience, it's about facts - I have used both and in different situation the muscle retention during the cutting diet aided my fat-loss in the long-run; however, not one time did I really have a true thermogenic effect on my SQ fat, b/c it was obvious that my negative caloric intake (below BMR) was causing the fat-loss...plus cardio. To make general statements like Anavar or Winstrol will make you shed fat, you need supporting points such as studies; otherwise, we have a mix of parroting and anecdotal information that neither presents nor refutes any TRUE facts.

As the saying goes, anecdotal views are just that - anecdotal.

Mr.X

Androgens and thermogenesis? That's cute

Apples don't equal oranges.

Jenetic

 

[roidpuple]

Victor,

In this situation, I have seen studies for minor factors, but for subcutaneous fat, I have never seen any. Again, "I'd like to see a study done on a bodybuilder (HUMAN) that shows the decrease of subcutaneous fat due to the use of Anavar - same for visceral fat. However, to me, visceral fat, which is the fat buried beneath the muscles is NOT as important as the Sub-Q bodyfat due to the obvious cosmetic nature of this particular question (not a health question). "

Quoting someone's "views" is not a good way to represent a point and is VERY misleading.

Mr.X[/QUOte
so what fat is being targeted then would you say???
subcutaneous fat ( fat under the skin) so where do you think they are losing the fat what kind of fat are they losing??

 

[Jenetic]

For example, this article shows that growth was the most commonly associated factor with oxandrolone (anavar):

Pediatrics. 1976 Sep;58(3):412-22.


Studies of anabolic steroids: v. effect of prolonged oxandrolone administration on growth in children and adolescents with uncomplicated short stature.

Moore DC, Tattoni DS, Limbeck GA, Ruvelcaba RH, Lindner DS, Gareis FJ, Al-Agba S, Kelley VC.

A total of 130 patients with uncomplicated short stature (4 to 17 years of age) were treated with oxandrolone, 0.25 mg/kg/day, for up to four years. Oxandrolone therapy resulted in a two-fold increase in mean growth velocity in the first six months of therapy and was an effective growth stimulant for the full four-year period. There was no overall adverse effect of oxandrolone on post-treatment mean growth velocity or on skeletal maturation relative to height gain. There were 37 patients with greater increase in height age than bone age and 22 patients with greater increase in bone age than height age. Assessment of the contribution of oxandrolone therapy to the latter group is difficult because of inadequate methodology and the wide variation in individual growth patterns. Taken in their entirety, the data suggest that oxandrolone is useful in the prolonged treatment of uncomplicated short stature and is not associated with undesirable acceleration of skeletal maturation.

PMID: 183178 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
************

As you can see, the study clearly mentions musclegrowth and bone density not Lipolysis - neither Visceral nor subcutaneous.

Mr.X

Great study on children. It doesn't even have the intention of investigating anything in regards to fat mass. I can cleary see how this would pertain to the discussion at hand.

It's easy to argue using bodybuilder studies. You know they don't exist. Good strategy though. Also, you specifically use the dieting scenario to support your argument. It's obvious diet and exercise will be responisble for the large majority of fat loss in this scenario. The goal with oxandrolone in this scenario would be to act as an aid in maintaining muscle mass through enhanced protein synthesis and possible glucocorticoid modulation. The following studies aren't the best, but they do indicate oxandrolone specifically with a reduction in total, visceral and subcutaneous fat mass.

Treatment with oxandrolone and the durability of effects in older men

E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Kevin E. Yarasheski, Dajun Qian, Yolanda Stewart, Carla Flores, Carmen Martinez, Michael Terk and Fred R. Sattler

We investigated the effects of the anabolic androgen, oxandrolone, on lean body mass (LBM), muscle size, fat, and maximum voluntary muscle strength, and we determined the durability of effects after treatment was stopped. Thirty-two healthy 60- to 87-yr-old men were randomized to receive 20 mg oxandrolone/day (n = 20) or placebo (n = 12) for 12 wk. Body composition [dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), magnetic resonance imaging, and 2H2O dilution] and muscle strength [1 repetition maximum (1 RM)] were evaluated at baseline and after 12 wk of treatment; body composition (DEXA) and 1-RM strength were then assessed 12 wk after treatment was discontinued (week 24). At week 12, oxandrolone increased LBM by 3.0 ± 1.5 kg (P < 0.001), total body water by 2.9 ± 3.7 kg (P = 0.002), and proximal thigh muscle area by 12.4 ± 8.4 cm2 (P < 0.001); these increases were greater (P < 0.003) than in the placebo group. Oxandrolone increased 1-RM strength for leg press by 6.7 ± 6.4% (P < 0.001), leg flexion by 7.0 ± 7.8% (P < 0.001), chest press by 9.3 ± 6.7% (P < 0.001), and latissimus pull-down exercises by 5.1 ± 9.1% (P = 0.02); these increases were greater than placebo. Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.9 ± 1.0 kg) and trunk fat (-1.3 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and these decreases were greater (P < 0.001) than placebo. Twelve weeks after oxandrolone was discontinued (week 24), the increments in LBM and muscle strength were no longer different from baseline (P > 0.15). However, the decreases in total and trunk fat were sustained (-1.5 ± 1.8, P = 0.001 and -1.0 ± 1.1 kg, P < 0.001, respectively). Thus oxandrolone induced short-term improvements in LBM, muscle area, and strength, while reducing whole body and trunk adiposity. Anabolic improvements were lost 12 wk after discontinuing oxandrolone, whereas improvements in fat mass were largely sustained.

Effects of Androgen Therapy on Adipose Tissue and Metabolism in Older Men

E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Michelle D. Ong, Carmen Martinez, Carla Flores, Yolanda Stewart, Colleen Azen and Fred R. Sattler

We investigated the effects of oxandrolone on regional fat compartments and markers of metabolism. Thirty-two 60- to 87-yr-old men (body mass index, 28.1 ± 3.4 kg/m2) were randomized to oxandrolone (20 mg/d; n = 20) or matching placebo (n = 12) treatment for 12 wk. Oxandrolone reduced total (–1.8 ± 1.0 kg; P < 0.001), trunk (–1.2 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and appendicular (–0.6 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001) fat, as determined by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry. The changes in total and trunk fat were greater (P < 0.001) than the changes with placebo. By magnetic resonance imaging, visceral adipose tissue decreased (–20.9 ± 12 cm2; P < 0.001), abdominal sc adipose tissue (SAT) declined (–10.7 ± 12.1 cm2; P = 0.043), the ratio VAT/SAT declined from 0.57 ± 0.23 to 0.49 ± 0.19 (P = 0.002), and proximal and distal thigh SC fat declined [–8.3 ± 6.7 cm2 (P < 0.001) and –2.2 ± 3.0 kg (P = 0.004), respectively]. Changes in proximal and distal thigh SC fat with oxandrolone were different than with placebo (P = 0.018 and P = 0.059). A marker of insulin sensitivity (quantitative insulin sensitivity check index) improved with oxandrolone by 0.0041 ± 0.0071 (P = 0.018) at study wk 12. Changes in total fat, abdominal SAT, and proximal extremity SC fat were correlated with changes in fasting insulin from baseline to study wk 12 (r 0.45; P < 0.05). Losses of total fat and SAT were greater in men with baseline testosterone of 10.4 nmol/liter or less ( 300 ng/dl) than in those with higher levels [–2.5 ± 1.1 vs. –1.5 ± 0.8 kg (P = 0.036) and –24.1 ± 14.3 vs. –2.9 ± 21.3 cm2 (P = 0.03), respectively]. Twelve weeks after discontinuing oxandrolone, 83% of the reductions in total, trunk, and extremity fat by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry scanning were sustained (P < 0.02). Androgen therapy, therefore, produced significant and durable reductions in regional abdominal and peripheral adipose tissue that were associated with improvements in estimates of insulin sensitivity. However, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol decreased by –0.49 ± 0.21 mmol/liter and directly measured low-density lipoprotein cholesterol increased by 0.57 ± 0.67 mmol/liter and non-high-density lipoprotein cholesterol increased by 0.54 ± 0.97 mmol/liter (P < 0.03 for each) during treatment with oxandrolone; these changes were largely reversible. Thus, therapy with an androgen that does not adversely affect lipids may be beneficial for some components of the metabolic syndrome in overweight older men with low testosterone levels.

Regardless of the limited information available and specific mechanisms discussed, a significant effect on fat mass is displayed versus placebo. Nobody is arguing the fact that diet (caloric intake/macronutrient profile) and exercise (caloric expenditure) plays the largest and most important role in fat loss, but AAS can have a profound impact on fat mass through secondary/non traditional pathways as well.

Jenetic

 

[Mr.X]

Yes, that's right, Treatment with oxandrolone and the durability of effects in older men

Treatment of old men is very applicable to bodybuilders. When you come up with something that's actually in relation to an athlete or a bodybuilder come back and post - for now, you make as much of an argument as Victor did.

Mr.X

 

[Jenetic]

It's far more applicable than that ridiculous study on children you posted. Children? What's even more absurd is your association of "thermogenesis" with androgens. Thermogenesis? That's pretty embarrassing.

You're defense by asking anyone to provide a study performed on bodybuilders is rather desperate. We all know they don't exist. That's pretty sad when you have to stoop that low just to get the last word in for the sake of the discussion.

Androgens do have traditional and non traditional effects on lipolysis. It's a fact that applies to everyone and not just bodybuilders. Just accept it.

With all due respect, I really expected a more intellectually challenging and professional response from someone like you.

Jenetic

 

[dr0832]

Well isn't an older man that takes AAS basically comparable to a younger man. Younger men have a much higher amount of test production. When older men take AAS they also gainer a higher amount of Test.

 

[Mr.X]

It's far more applicable than that ridiculous study on children you posted. Children? What's even more absurd is your association of "thermogenesis" with androgens. Thermogenesis? That's pretty embarrassing.

You're defense by asking anyone to provide a study performed on bodybuilders is rather desperate. We all know they don't exist. That's pretty sad when you have to stoop that low just to get the last word in for the sake of the discussion.

Androgens do have traditional and non traditional effects on lipolysis. It's a fact that applies to everyone and not just bodybuilders. Just accept it.

With all due respect, I really expected a more intellectually challenging and professional response from someone like you.

Jenetic

Jenetic,

My study was an example of what one should post, if you pulled your head out of your ass you could see that. If you go re-read my posts without this egomaniac thing you have going, you would see that I clearly stated that I didn't feel any thermogenic effect from AS because it DOES NOT have any and is not supposed to have any.

Androgens DO NOT have effects on lipolysis, it's not a fact, it's BS you're putting forward without true facts. When you come back with studies on athletes or bodybuilders to back your point we can talk, for now you're wasting my time.

Honestly, I wasn't expecting much more from you then this after you pulled that fiasco on MMSFitness where you tried to blame Spook for calling you FONZ, and you pretended you were in China or some BS like that. Give me a break Jenetic, I've been on these boards for over 6 years, and I've seen "gurus" like you come and go, so in the end of the day everything that I read from you I find just as educating as the crap I used to read on Tredia - where everyone was a guru.

When you stop saying that EVERYTHING is FACT because YOU said so, then we can continue this conversation, for now you're just another "self-made" guru trying to prove his point on the internet instead of trying to educate people as I do.

Mr.X

 

[VictorBR]

damn ,

I said it was going to be my last post but I couldn't resist .

Mr X , can't you just accept that you are wrong after all ?

I mean , it is clearly here that I was RIGHT and you are wrong .

Is that so hard for you to admit ?


Victor

 

[Mr.X]

damn ,

I said it was going to be my last post but I couldn't resist .

Mr X , can't you just accept that you are wrong after all ?

I mean , it is clearly here that I was RIGHT and you are wrong .

Is that so hard for you to admit ?


Victor

why would I accept you're right because you have parroted your hero Jenetic as fact???? give me a break, when you two come up with some true facts, come back to the table.

Mr.X

 

[VictorBR]

why would I accept you're right because you have parroted your hero Jenetic as fact???? give me a break, when you two come up with some true facts, come back to the table.

Mr.X

>>> LOL , my hero , that was nice , ....and sad at the same time . Why is that he is my hero ? Just because I used his QUOTES ? I even said he is not god , just a person but a person who knows more than you about hormones and the human body that is for sure .

I wouldn't even need the studies to believe in his words instead of yours . I don't take his words as FACTS , no way , I don't even agree with him in a lot of things , but HERE , since I have my own EXPERIENCE and he provided solid FACTS , I will take his words over yours .

I gave you FACTS ( using his quotes ) , then you asked for studies , then HE GAVE you THE STUDIES .

Now you say the studie was done with old man and not bodybuilders. It Seems to me that you are never satisfied , as long as we keep the facts and studies coming , you will keep asking for more.

You can believe what you want.

But is is obvious here that you are already convinced that AAS can cause fat loss , but you will never admit it .

It is called EGO .


Victor

 

[Mr.X]

Great study on children. It doesn't even have the intention of investigating anything in regards to fat mass. I can cleary see how this would pertain to the discussion at hand.

Go read what I said again, it was an EXAMPLE of what your follower Victor should post, A STUDY.

It's easy to argue using bodybuilder studies. You know they don't exist. Good strategy though.

Who said they don't exist? Just because you can't find them on PubMed or are too lazy to go to the local Medical Library, it does NOT mean they don't exist. Also, just because YOU said so, it doesn't mean they don't exist. I was at the Stanford Library about 1mo. ago and at the UCSF one and I found a few studies that I thought were not possible to find before.

Also, you specifically use the dieting scenario to support your argument. It's obvious diet and exercise will be responisble for the large majority of fat loss in this scenario. The goal with oxandrolone ]/b]in this scenario would be to act as an aid in maintaining muscle mass through enhanced protein synthesis and possible glucocorticoid modulation. The following studies aren't the best, but they do indicate oxandrolone specifically with a reduction in total, visceral and subcutaneous fat mass.

That's right, you just proved my point: Body-fat loss will not be the direct consequence of oxandrolone (anavar), for oxandrolone (anavar) would be only an AID to helping retain muscle mass.

Treatment with oxandrolone and the durability of effects in older men

Yes this is REALLY applicable to 22-32 year old elitefitness members. If you know anything about the human make-up as we get older, then you would know that as we age our body responds to everything much differently then it did when we were younger. Thus, studies done on 60- to 87-yr-old men are NOT applicable

E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Kevin E. Yarasheski, Dajun Qian, Yolanda Stewart, Carla Flores, Carmen Martinez, Michael Terk and Fred R. Sattler

We investigated the effects of the anabolic androgen, oxandrolone, on lean body mass (LBM), muscle size, fat, and maximum voluntary muscle strength, and we determined the durability of effects after treatment was stopped. Thirty-two healthy 60- to 87-yr-old men were randomized to receive 20 mg oxandrolone/day (n = 20) or placebo (n = 12) for 12 wk.

Notice the dosage, 20mg PER day, not applicable to a bodybuilder at ALL

Body composition [dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), magnetic resonance imaging, and 2H2O dilution] and muscle strength [1 repetition maximum (1 RM)] were evaluated at baseline and after 12 wk of treatment; body composition (DEXA) and 1-RM strength were then assessed 12 wk after treatment was discontinued (week 24). At week 12, oxandrolone increased LBM by 3.0 ± 1.5 kg (P < 0.001), total body water by 2.9 ± 3.7 kg (P = 0.002), and proximal thigh muscle area by 12.4 ± 8.4 cm2 (P < 0.001); these increases were greater (P < 0.003) than in the placebo group.

That is correct, because when you're 80 years old! any steroids or AS are considered HRT (hormone replacement therapy) so all this is NATURAL, it happens to anyone that gets testosterone or any other HRT with AS.

Oxandrolone increased 1-RM strength for leg press by 6.7 ± 6.4% (P < 0.001), leg flexion by 7.0 ± 7.8% (P < 0.001), chest press by 9.3 ± 6.7% (P < 0.001), and latissimus pull-down exercises by 5.1 ± 9.1% (P = 0.02); these increases were greater than placebo. Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.9 ± 1.0 kg) and trunk fat (-1.3 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and these decreases were greater (P < 0.001) than placeboTwelve weeks after oxandrolone was discontinued (week 24), the increments in LBM and muscle strength were no longer different from baseline (P > 0.15). However, the decreases in total and trunk fat were sustained (-1.5 ± 1.8, P = 0.001 and -1.0 ± 1.1 kg, P < 0.001, respectively). Thus oxandrolone induced short-term improvements in LBM, muscle area, and strength, while reducing whole body and trunk adiposity. Anabolic improvements were lost 12 wk after discontinuing oxandrolone, whereas improvements in fat mass were largely sustained.

This study didn't even talk about their diet or workout, for all I know they starved them on 2 cups of veggies a day. Waste of my time reading it.....again, studies on athletes would the applicable on elitefitness not old me.

Effects of Androgen Therapy on Adipose Tissue and Metabolism in Older Men

Again, old men, again it's HRT

E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Michelle D. Ong, Carmen Martinez, Carla Flores, Yolanda Stewart, Colleen Azen and Fred R. Sattler

We investigated the effects of oxandrolone on regional fat compartments and markers of metabolism. Thirty-two 60- to 87-yr-old men (body mass index,

Again, studies done on 60- to 87-yr-old men

28.1 ± 3.4 kg/m2) were randomized to oxandrolone (20 mg/d; n = 20) or matching placebo (n = 12) treatment for 12 wk. Oxandrolone reduced total (–1.8 ± 1.0 kg; P < 0.001), trunk (–1.2 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and appendicular (–0.6 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001) fat, as determined by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry. The changes in total and trunk fat were greater (P < 0.001) than the changes with placebo. By magnetic resonance imaging, visceral adipose tissue decreased (–20.9 ± 12 cm2; P < 0.001), abdominal sc adipose tissue (SAT) declined (–10.7 ± 12.1 cm2; P = 0.043), the ratio VAT/SAT declined from 0.57 ± 0.23 to 0.49 ± 0.19 (P = 0.002), and proximal and distal thigh SC fat declined [–8.3 ± 6.7 cm2 (P < 0.001) and –2.2 ± 3.0 kg (P = 0.004), respectively]. Changes in proximal and distal thigh SC fat with oxandrolone were different than with placebo (P = 0.018 and P = 0.059). A marker of insulin sensitivity (quantitative insulin sensitivity check index) improved with oxandrolone by 0.0041 ± 0.0071 (P = 0.018) at study wk 12. Changes in total fat, abdominal SAT, and proximal extremity SC fat were correlated with changes in fasting insulin from baseline to study wk 12 (r 0.45; P < 0.05).

Looks like they lowered the carb intake here.

Losses of total fat and SAT were greater in men with baseline testosterone of 10.4 nmol/liter or less ( 300 ng/dl) than in those with higher levels [–2.5 ± 1.1 vs. –1.5 ± 0.8 kg (P = 0.036) and –24.1 ± 14.3 vs. –2.9 ± 21.3 cm2 (P = 0.03), respectively].

There you go, HRT only, the changes in men with MORE testosterone are much different then their claimed baseline.

******************

This convesation is trully not going anywhere, all I keep getting is anecdotal and guru evidence instead of factual evidence.

Mr.X

 

[duke of earl]

I have no opinion either way - this study but this is interesting

1: Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1995 Sep;19(9):614-24. Related Articles, Links


Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Lovejoy JC, Bray GA, Greeson CS, Klemperer M, Morris J, Partington C, Tulley R.

Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70808-4124, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of testosterone enanthate (TE), anabolic steroid (AS) or placebo (PL) on regional fat distribution and health risk factors in obese middle-aged men undergoing weight loss by dietary means. DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, carried out for 9 months with primary assessments at 3 month intervals. Due to adverse blood lipid changes, the AS group was switched from oral oxandrolone (ASOX) to parenteral nandrolone decaoate (ASND) after the 3 month assessment point. SUBJECTS: Thirty healthy, obese men, aged 40-60 years, with serum testosterone (T) levels in the low-normal range (2-5 ng/mL). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Abdominal fat distribution and thigh muscle volume by CT scan, body composition by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), insulin sensitivity by the Minimal Model method, blood lipids, blood chemistry, blood pressure, thyroid hormones and urological parameters. RESULTS: After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group compared to the TE and PL groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. There were significant main effects of treatment at 3 months on serum T and free T (increased in the TE group and decreased in the ASOX group) and on thyroid hormone parameters (T4 and T3 resin uptake significantly decreased in the ASOX group compared with the other two groups). There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased high muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease. Neither TE nor AS treatment resulted in any change in urologic parameters. CONCLUSIONS: Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE (testosterone enanthate) and ASND(nandrolone decanoate aka deca) injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors were due to weight loss per se. These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8574271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Mr.X]

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Again, the same problem, it's done on OBESE OLD men. However, a good post to say the least, nice to see others join in on the conversation

Mr.X

 

[roidpuple]

Victor,

In this situation, I have seen studies for minor factors, but for subcutaneous fat, I have never seen any. Again, "I'd like to see a study done on a bodybuilder (HUMAN) that shows the decrease of subcutaneous fat due to the use of Anavar - same for visceral fat. However, to me, visceral fat, which is the fat buried beneath the muscles is NOT as important as the Sub-Q bodyfat due to the obvious cosmetic nature of this particular question (not a health question). "

Quoting someone's "views" is not a good way to represent a point and is VERY misleading.

Mr.X[/QUOte
so what fat is being targeted then would you say???
subcutaneous fat ( fat under the skin) so where do you think they are losing the fat what kind of fat are they losing??

So what Fat is being targeted?? if not subcbcutaneous???

 

[Mr.X]

So what Fat is being targeted?? if not subcbcutaneous???

I'd like to see a study done on a bodybuilder (HUMAN) that shows the decrease of subcutaneous fat due to the use of Anavar - same for visceral fat. However, to me, visceral fat, which is the fat buried beneath the muscles is NOT as important as the Sub-Q bodyfat due to the obvious cosmetic nature of this particular question (not a health question).

In fact, "Visceral fat can go largely unnoticed because it’s not visible to the naked eye. In fact, the only effective way researchers can locate visceral fat is by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), which uses magnetic waves to take a picture of the inside of the abdomen. Researchers can use this picture to estimate the amount of visceral fat a person is carrying." Source: 2003 Elsevier Science.

Thus, even IF the case for VS fat was true, it's not applicable to the issue at hand.

Mr.X

Basically, I have seen some minor things about Visceral fat.

Mr.X

 

[Jenetic]

Androgens DO NOT have effects on lipolysis, it's not a fact, it's BS you're putting forward without true facts. When you come back with studies on athletes or bodybuilders to back your point we can talk, for now you're wasting my time.

Androgens do have a siginificant relationship to lipolysis through both traditional and non traditional pathaways. This is textbook physiology and biochemistry that is taught at the undergraduate level.

Direct effects of sex steroid hormones on adipose tissues and obesity.

Mayes JS, Watson GH.

Center for Health Sciences, Oklahoma State University, Tulsa, OK 74107-1898, USA.

Sex steroid hormones are involved in the metabolism, accumulation and distribution of adipose tissues. It is now known that oestrogen receptor, progesterone receptor and androgen receptor exist in adipose tissues, so their actions could be direct. Sex steroid hormones carry out their function in adipose tissues by both genomic and nongenomic mechanisms. In the genomic mechanism, the sex steroid hormone binds to its receptor and the steroid-receptor complex regulates the transcription of given genes. Leptin and lipoprotein lipase are two key proteins in adipose tissues that are regulated by transcriptional control with sex steroid hormones. In the nongenomic mechanism, the sex steroid hormone binds to its receptor in the plasma membrane, and second messengers are formed. This involves both the cAMP cascade and the phosphoinositide cascade. Activation of the cAMP cascade by sex steroid hormones would activate hormone-sensitive lipase leading to lipolysis in adipose tissues. In the phosphoinositide cascade, diacylglycerol and inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate are formed as second messengers ultimately causing the activation of protein kinase C. Their activation appears to be involved in the control of preadipocyte proliferation and differentiation. In the presence of sex steroid hormones, a normal distribution of body fat exists, but with a decrease in sex steroid hormones, as occurs with ageing or gonadectomy, there is a tendency to increase central obesity, a major risk for cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes and certain cancers. Because sex steroid hormones regulate the amount and distribution of adipose tissues, they or adipose tissue-specific selective receptor modulators might be used to ameliorate obesity. In fact, hormone replacement therapy in postmenopausal women and testosterone replacement therapy in older men appear to reduce the degree of central obesity. However, these therapies have numerous side effects limiting their use, and selective receptor modulators of sex steroid hormones are needed that are more specific for adipose tissues with fewer side effects.

Jenetic

 

[Paulo]

The effects of androgens on the regulation of lipolysis in adipose precursor cells

X Xu, G De Pergola and P Bjorntorp
Wallenberg Laboratory, Sahlgren's Hospital, University of Goteborg, Sweden.


Adipose precursor cells were exposed in primary culture to testosterone (T) or dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and their effects on the regulation of lipolysis were studied. T, but not DHT, stimulated catecholamine-induced lipolysis in a dose-dependent manner, including physiological concentrations. The effect was equally pronounced with isoproterenol (a pure beta-adrenergic agonist) and norepinephrine (a mixed alpha 2- and beta-adrenergic agonist). The higher lipolytic capacity of catecholamines on T-treated cells was paralleled by a similar increase in the number of beta-adrenoceptors in the cells, without a change in the receptor affinity, suggesting that T induced new synthesis or externalization of beta-adrenoceptors. Both T and DHT stimulated forskolin-induced lipolysis, suggesting an androgen effect at the level of the catalytic subunit of adenylate cyclase. The pertussis toxin-stimulated lipolysis was not influenced by the presence of androgens in the culture medium, and no effect was seen on the antilipolytic effect of insulin. These effects did not disappear in the presence of an aromatase inhibitor, suggesting that the T effects were not mediated by conversion to estrogens. These cells showed specific saturable binding for androgens, with a Kd in the range of androgen concentrations shown to be active. In conclusion, androgens enhance the lipolytic capacity of these cells by increasing the apparent number of beta-adrenoceptors (T only) and the activity of adenylate cyclase (both T and DHT). These changes are not mediated by conversion to estrogens. These effects probably occur via binding to specific androgen receptors.

 

[Jenetic]

This study didn't even talk about their diet or workout, for all I know they starved them on 2 cups of veggies a day. Waste of my time reading it.....again, studies on athletes would the applicable on elitefitness not old me.

Looks like they lowered the carb intake here.

Just give it up Mr.X. You are starting to really embarass yourself this time. Once again, textbook undergraduate education.

The adipose tissue metabolism: role of testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone.

De Pergola G.

Istituto di Clinica Medica, Endocrinologia e Malattie Metaboliche dell'Universita di Bari, Policlinico di Bari, Italy. [email protected]

Testosterone (T) and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) are fat-reducing hormones, even though they exert this effect by different mechanisms. In particular, T inhibits lipid uptake and lipoprotein-lipase (LDL) activity in adipocytes, and stimulates lipolysis by increasing the number of lipolytic beta-adrenergic receptors. An indirect sign of these effects is the decrease of adipocyte leptin production. Lastly, T inhibits differentiation of adipocyte precursor cells. Concerning DHEA, this hormone does not seen to have any of T effects; however, DHEA stimulates resting metabolic rate (RMR) and lipid oxidation, and enhances glucose disposal, by increasing the expression of GLUT-1 and GLUT-4 on fat cell plasma membrane. The insulin-like effect of DHEA would be associated to a decrease of plasma insulin concentrations and, thus, to an increase of the molar ratio between lipolytic hormones and insulin.

Maybe you need to leave HARDCORE diet land and join us back in the real world.

Ignorance is bliss.

Jenetic

 

[Boston Strangler]

My last winny only cycle I started out at 285 and finished at 307, i leaned out but I blew up like a muthaf'er. I know this isn't the most common occurance, but it is possible to blow up on anything if your genetics are built that way.

 

[ryan04]

After a few weeks of winstrol I noticed hair all over my pillow and even more falling out every time I ran my fingers through my hair. Fuck that shit!

 

[Boston Strangler]

After a few weeks of winstrol I noticed hair all over my pillow and even more falling out every time I ran my fingers through my hair. Fuck that shit!

Really?? hmmmmmm

 

[Jenetic]

Jenetic,

My study was an example of what one should post, if you pulled your head out of your ass you could see that. If you go re-read my posts without this egomaniac thing you have going, you would see that I clearly stated that I didn't feel any thermogenic effect from AS because it DOES NOT have any and is not supposed to have any.

Androgens DO NOT have effects on lipolysis, it's not a fact, it's BS you're putting forward without true facts. When you come back with studies on athletes or bodybuilders to back your point we can talk, for now you're wasting my time.

Honestly, I wasn't expecting much more from you then this after you pulled that fiasco on MMSFitness where you tried to blame Spook for calling you FONZ, and you pretended you were in China or some BS like that. Give me a break Jenetic, I've been on these boards for over 6 years, and I've seen "gurus" like you come and go, so in the end of the day everything that I read from you I find just as educating as the crap I used to read on Tredia - where everyone was a guru.

When you stop saying that EVERYTHING is FACT because YOU said so, then we can continue this conversation, for now you're just another "self-made" guru trying to prove his point on the internet instead of trying to educate people as I do.

Mr.X

The facts are on the table now.

Pull my head out of my ass? Please, let's be a bit more civilized with our choice of words. However, there is no need to apologize as I can understand your frustration. It happens to us all.

You of all people should know better than to cry about your personal issues with me on the open forum. It's obvious that Spook and yourself are culturally and intellectually handicapped. The bounty hunter threat was pretty cute as well keyboard cowboy. Check my IP. You will clearly see that I am in an Asian country. I suppose the idea of an American living elsewhere is too worldly for a redneck to comprehend.

The self made guru accusation is a figure of your own dellusional and limited perception. I've always appreciated posts by Huck, Andy, Zyg, Juve, Macro and Ulter. Their knowledge and specialized expertise ranges far beyond my abilities and I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to read and learn from their posts.

If my answers frighten you, you should cease to ask scary questions.

Jenetic

 

[psychedout]

How about I add my two cents.

All things equal, I am always leaner while on then off.

Human experience is what matters most to me.

My guess at why? Well, using AAS = more muscle. More muscle = more calories burned. More calories burned = less fat.

 

[renda]

Body Fat

Alrite Mate My Names Renda Im From London England.your Message Caught My Eye...so Basically Your Saying If I Had Unwanted Body Fat And At The Same Time I Wanted To Bulk Up I Could Do So By Simply Bumpin Up My Testosterone Levels(roids)?? Last 2yrs Ive Gone From A 28waist(69kg) To 36waist(80kg) And Really Wana Be A 28 Again But...can I Make Any Good Use To This Increase In Body Fat Or Do I Av To Slog It Out On A Tredmill(gerball Style) Any Tips Bro???
Renda

 

[Ulter]

I have a hard time with this separation of older men and body builders Mr X. Are you saying that visceral fat in older men is different from the visceral fat in the men on this board? How is it different?

AS can absolutely tip the balance of fat and lean in favor of lean if all else is equal. And in some case when it's not equal. I can raise my caloric intake by 50% and lose weight with AS. In fact I can eat whatever I want and lose weight if I am taking the right AS and enough of it. And I am certainly not alone. If I shoot 100mg/day of tren acetate I can eat anything and still lose fat. Tren is not well understood by the medical community, because it's not for humans, so don't ask for studies. But I will bet there are a thousand posts here by people who say that when they use enough tren they can eat whatever they want, are soaking the sheets at night from night sweating, they can't sleep, and are burning off pre-existing fat like mofo's. No offense to whoever questioned AS taking on the properties of a thermogenic but that sounds a lot like a thermogenic effect to me. Anything that increases my metabolism so that it makes me sweat, not sleep as much, and out strips my ability to replace the calories I burn has to be considered somewhat thermogenic.
Of course you can gain weight on Oxandrolone or winny. But they still burn off fat that you wouldn't burn off without them. Anyone that questions whether or not winny makes you burn off more fat than you would without it should go back a read Fukkenshredded's posts again.

 

[roidpuple]

they would help but diet and cardio are A number 1.... and there are better drugs for losing fat...

 

[Mr.X]

You of all people should know better than to cry about your personal issues with me on the open forum. It's obvious that Spook and yourself are culturally and intellectually handicapped. The bounty hunter threat was pretty cute as well keyboard cowboy. Check my IP. You will clearly see that I am in an Asian country. I suppose the idea of an American living elsewhere is too worldly for a redneck to comprehend.

Jenetic,

We all know where you were, and we all thought you were FONZ, whether you are or not, it doesn't matter to me - you came off very badly making drama out of nothing with the spook issue, coming out calling ppl. idiots. You can treated like you treat others Jenetic.

Jenetic, I live in Mexico now so why is the idea so wild? give me a break, you know that you were just stirring shit with spook.

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

I have a hard time with this separation of older men and body builders Mr X. Are you saying that visceral fat in older men is different from the visceral fat in the men on this board? How is it different?

.

What I'm saying is that comparing Bodybuilders and Athletes to 80 year old men doesn't make any sense. Their insulin sensitivity is worse off, they have lower test. levels and overall are in a DIFFERENT condition then a bodybuilder. The fat cells might be the same, but the activity levels, insulin responses and other facts alike (metabolic rate included) are completely different.

Mr.X

 

[Jenetic]

Jenetic,

We all know where you were, and we all thought you were FONZ, whether you are or not, it doesn't matter to me - you came off very badly making drama out of nothing with the spook issue, coming out calling ppl. idiots. You can treated like you treat others Jenetic.

Jenetic, I live in Mexico now so why is the idea so wild? give me a break, you know that you were just stirring shit with spook.

Mr.X

You can say whatever it is that puts your mind at ease in order to make yourself look credible at this point. I could really care less since I've already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that androgens, through genomic and non genomic pathways, are directly related to the metabolism, accumulation and distribution of adipose tissues.

We both know the truth about what Spook had to say

Jenetic

 

[Mr.X]

You of all people should know better than to cry about your personal issues with me on the open forum. It's obvious that Spook and yourself are culturally and intellectually handicapped. The bounty hunter threat was pretty cute as well keyboard cowboy. Check my IP.

I'll have spook post the story here, he has you on his recording machine for the whole convesation.

Basically, the story goes something like this, you came on my board, started posting and Spook liked you, he PMed you asking you if he can talk to you on the phone - he had a few questions for you. You said that you'd call him, yes you did "block" your number, but spook never told you who he trully works for so we have the true number you call from. So to get the story going, you talked to him on the phone for a few minutes then the convesation turned into the boards and Spook said few people thought you were FONZ, you denied this and then your convesation went on. Thereafter, you came on elitefitness, complaining to mods and admins HERE (it was posted on the mod board on elite) that people are ACCUSING YOU of being FONZ; even though, it was clear that it was just part of the conversation. For some STRANGE reason, you went out of your way to make a big stink that you are NOT FONZ - strange isn't it?

I think you might want to step back and tell us why you made such a big fuss about a phone conversation that even MENTIONED FONZ, interesting. It's interesting how in your convo with spook you mentioned you're in mainland china but how all your IPs from mms take me to Taiwan - possible proxy base. Even if you used a VPN, I have java installed and will be interested to see where you really are. Look if you're NOT Fonz then why go nuts when someone mentions his name with a relation to yours, hmmmm, let everyone make their own conclusion.

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

Oh wait, also, part of the story is that you were scared of his "gay" jokes too.

 

[Jenetic]

You have no credibility whatsoever.

Aside from the fact that Fonz was possibly associated with illegal activities, I'm actually flattered because he was an intelligent person.

We both know what Spook had to say about you

You're absolutely right, that is a scary thought.

Jenetic

 

[Mr.X]

You can say whatever it is that puts your mind at ease in order to make yourself look credible at this point. I could really care less since I've already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that androgens, through genomic and non genomic pathways, are directly related to the metabolism, accumulation and distribution of adipose tissues.

You've given me 0 proof that, oxandrolone (anavar) has a direct effect on the fat-loss (Sub-Q as I said before) of bodybuilders and/or athletes. When you come back with as study proving that, then I can say I'm wrong, until then - you haven't proven anything as far as I'm concerned. Remember Fonz, this is not about you nor I, it's about teaching elitefitness Facts about topics and people.

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

Just give it up Mr.X. You are starting to really embarass yourself this time. Once again, textbook undergraduate education.

Seems like the only person beating a dead horse here is you, not provide even 1 study backing up your anavar claim.

De Pergola G.

Istituto di Clinica Medica, Endocrinologia e Malattie Metaboliche dell'Universita di Bari, Policlinico di Bari, Italy. [email protected]

Testosterone (T) and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) are fat-reducing hormones, even though they exert this effect by different mechanisms. In particular, T inhibits lipid uptake and lipoprotein-lipase (LDL) activity in adipocytes, and stimulates lipolysis by increasing the number of lipolytic beta-adrenergic receptors. An indirect sign of these effects is the decrease of adipocyte leptin production. Lastly, T inhibits differentiation of adipocyte precursor cells. Concerning DHEA, this hormone does not seen to have any of T effects; however, DHEA stimulates resting metabolic rate (RMR) and lipid oxidation, and enhances glucose disposal, by increasing the expression of GLUT-1 and GLUT-4 on fat cell plasma membrane. The insulin-like effect of DHEA would be associated to a decrease of plasma insulin concentrations and, thus, to an increase of the molar ratio between lipolytic hormones and insulin.

This is just a statement by De Pergola G., where is the study? stop wasting my time. It seems to me you are trying to make a ludicrous claim that oxandrolone good binding to the AR, has anything to do with fat-loss.

Maybe you need to leave HARDCORE diet land and join us back in the real world.

maybe you need to put your money where your mouth is fonz and show me a study that I'm asking for or this conversation is over

Ignorance is bliss.

you're right, you're cleary showing that ARROGANCE is a bliss in your case

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

AS can absolutely tip the balance of fat and lean in favor of lean if all else is equal. And in some case when it's not equal. I can raise my caloric intake by 50% and lose weight with AS. In fact I can eat whatever I want and lose weight if I am taking the right AS and enough of it. And I am certainly not alone. If I shoot 100mg/day of tren acetate I can eat anything and still lose fat. Tren is not well understood by the medical community, because it's not for humans, so don't ask for studies. But I will bet there are a thousand posts here by people who say that when they use enough tren they can eat whatever they want, are soaking the sheets at night from night sweating, they can't sleep, and are burning off pre-existing fat like mofo's. No offense to whoever questioned AS taking on the properties of a thermogenic but that sounds a lot like a thermogenic effect to me. Anything that increases my metabolism so that it makes me sweat, not sleep as much, and out strips my ability to replace the calories I burn has to be considered somewhat thermogenic.
Of course you can gain weight on Oxandrolone or winny. But they still burn off fat that you wouldn't burn off without them. Anyone that questions whether or not winny makes you burn off more fat than you would without it should go back a read Fukkenshredded's posts again.

Ulter, you're correct, I don't think I'm trying to tell anyone that AS doesn't help you when you diet, of course it does. Heck, Tren ac. has been a great product to use along with IGF. But ANAVAR (the point of the conversation) has NO direct effect on fat-loss....however, Anavar DOES aid indirectly with fat-loss - through muscle retention - helps you burn more calories -(positive nitrogen balanced), reduced gluconeogenesis etc... but saying that Anavar will help you shed fat would be completely out of this world, so I stick to my Guns - no studies no direct link with anavar helping bodybuilders / athletes get rid of Sub-Q fat.

Mr.X

 

[Jenetic]

The main emphasis was to address that androgens, through genomic and non genomic pathways, are directly related to the metabolism, accumulation and distribution of adipose tissues.

Androgens DO NOT have effects on lipolysis, it's not a fact, it's BS you're putting forward without true facts. When you come back with studies on athletes or bodybuilders to back your point we can talk, for now you're wasting my time.

The previous 2 which I posted studies provided clearly support that.

Also, the second study which you just quoted shows just how childish your remarks are. You associated the change in fasting insulin of the other study to be associated with a decrease of carbohydrates in diets of the test subjects. As you can see there, the change is actually associated with an increase in GLUT-1 and GLUT-4 expression.

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

Mr.X,

Happy Holidays and God Bless.

Jenetic

 

[Mr.X]

The main emphasis was to address that androgens, through genomic and non genomic pathways, are directly related to the metabolism, accumulation and distribution of adipose tissues.




Jenetic

You are trying to move the conversation into a General Androgen/AS area, which is NOT what the conversation is about. Look at your first post arguing anavar has something to do with fat-loss:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4256509&postcount=35

The point I am making:
Anavar has NO direct effect on fat-loss

The point you're trying to make:
Steroids (AS) have an effect on fat-loss

The conversation is about a PARTICULAR drug not the whole assortment of drugs. Let's stick to your guns here.

Mr.X

 

[Spook12345]

I'll have spook post the story here, he has you on his recording machine for the whole convesation.

Basically, the story goes something like this, you came on my board, started posting and Spook liked you, he PMed you asking you if he can talk to you on the phone - he had a few questions for you. You said that you'd call him, yes you did "block" your number, but spook never told you who he trully works for so we have the true number you call from. So to get the story going, you talked to him on the phone for a few minutes then the convesation turned into the boards and Spook said few people thought you were FONZ, you denied this and then your convesation went on. Thereafter, you came on elitefitness, complaining to mods and admins HERE (it was posted on the mod board on elite) that people are ACCUSING YOU of being FONZ; even though, it was clear that it was just part of the conversation. For some STRANGE reason, you went out of your way to make a big stink that you are NOT FONZ - strange isn't it?

I think you might want to step back and tell us why you made such a big fuss about a phone conversation that even MENTIONED FONZ, interesting. It's interesting how in your convo with spook you mentioned you're in mainland china but how all your IPs from mms take me to Taiwan - possible proxy base. Even if you used a VPN, I have java installed and will be interested to see where you really are. Look if you're NOT Fonz then why go nuts when someone mentions his name with a relation to yours, hmmmm, let everyone make their own conclusion.

Mr.X

Out of all honesty, I thought Jenetic was one very smart bro. I offered to speak with him via the phone to discuss not just the possibility of writing articles, but also some various people's concerns that he was the Fonz...heeeyyyyy. I will not lie because I found Jenetic's posts to be very intelligible, but after our phone conversation I thought that we were cool. My understanding was that he found me to be a redneck drug addict. That's kinda funny actually.

It really doesn't matter actually, now. Jenetic has basically spoken with me, I thought he was one smart bro, and in the last couple of months I have learned that he has smartmouthed me behind my back. Mainland China huh? You were there on family business? Pinging an IP isn't that difficult in any chat conversation and the phone is far easier.

Jenetic, I have no idea why you ever had a beef with me because I said that people were curious about you since you had very good posts that were very reminiscent of Fonz's posts. His posts were great, but at the same time you bitched behind my back to people and that is sooooo not cool. WTF? Do you really want me to tag any and all IP's you use as well as your personal computer(s) too?

However, I could be diplomatic with the above things that I have said, but I can't see a reason since you insulted me behind my back. You assume that I'm some smacked out cracked up to the gills dipshit?! Dude! I fuck up meth labs for half a living and make these assholes live in pure shit for a few years to dry them out. I could care less about roids, but you call me out on stuff you know nothing about? I still get pissed thinking about how you talked about me behind my back. You are on notice.

To be polite, Jenetic isn't all that cool.

You come to my board and you play it cool. I see you posting some great posts, we speak together about the possibility of you writing articles. I'm one of the coolest guys you could ever hope to talk to, but once you fuck with me, you are a sorry SOB. WTF Fonz?!?! Oh, yeah, you say you are calling me from Mainland China on family business? Jenetic?otropin? Dealer, scumbag, assbag who could have had a free ride.

Oh, Jinotropin douche bag, you could have had it so good. Screw you and the camel you rode in on (Okay, that might be harsh to say since I don't know if you rode in on a camel). Yeah, you are dealing and who cares about your excuse as a strength coach Fonzie boy! Who are you coaching in China anyway? The diving team for the Olympics? I made sweet sweet love to both of those chicks BTW. They were good and both of them said you were dealing hGH and trying to get warez to America among other things.

BTW, thanks for trying to sell me some of your GH, but not interested now. I'll be sure that customs gets all of your info though.

Spook out.

 

[MR. BMJ]

This is something that Fukkenshrdedded wrote here not too long ago regarding winny. He is probably one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to winstrol.

Here it is:
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I read that thread, and I better respond before things get clouded...Ok. Let me address some of these questions best I can. I apologize for not having the references in front of me, but I will attempt to find them for your perusal.

First off, I am mystified about the skepticism surrounding the assertion that winstrol is pyrogenic. Pyrogenic simply means 'fever producing', and it is a well known side effect of this steroid, even listed in common medical journals as a side effect. Keep in mind that this occurs at doses as low as 2mg/day. I think Nigel Verger, in one of his articles, provides a table from a medical journal that lists this and other effects. Anyway...

The primary use of stanozolol in humans is to treat hereditary angioedema. This condition causes swelling of the face, hands, feet, neck, throat, and other areas, as a result of an improper distribution of water in the organism, not connected (necessarily) to sodium levels. Ok, so this drug reduces the swelling, again, in doses as low as 2mg/day.

You see where I am going with this, I am sure. We can conclude from the very use of this drug that it has a water-redistributing effect on the organism. In fact, anyone who has used it for any period of time can attest to the effects resulting from internal dehydration, such as constipation, cramps, headaches, dry mouth, blurred vision, etc. Now, this is not to say that the subcutaneous water retention is not possible on this drug, because that particular effect is a seperate condition from the effect of water redistribution around the organs and musculature. I will leave the differential explanation to someone more knowledgable, but I guarantee that winstrol will remove water from specific areas, including many organs. This is dangerous if prolonged indefinitely.

About this tendon issue...I think I have that solved as well. Consider the recent study (I will get it) that showed that winstrol increased collagen synthesis in small doses, and that the increase seems to be dose related. Well, let's think about that. If the receptors are not evenly distributed throughout the tendon, then the accelerated growth would not occur evenly. Rather, it would occur more rapidly directly around the areas that were more densely populated with receptors, which could conceivably result in a nodule of growth in the tendon. This would result in a tendon that is not uniform in its tensile strength, and would be susceptible to rupture at the area directly above or below the nodule. This is speculation, but it is a theory that makes sense to me.

Lastly. Winstrol has a unique anticatabolic action. For a great description of this, you should read Dr. Scruggs little paragraph about stanozolol. I will try and find it. Anyway, it turns out that winstrol has little or no effect on GH and IGF-1 levels, and therefore does not effectively recruit and impact sattelite cells. So the anabolic of effect of winstrol is minimal, at best. So why do we get stronger? Well, it does increase nitrogen retention, and we know how important that is for muscle growth. But, more importantly, it preserves the muslce we already have, meaning that any new growth will not be 'cancelled out' by muscle degeneration. Testoserone is superior in terms of being anabolic/androgenic, but testosterone also creates protien degradation at a much more accelerated rate than does winstrol. So, yoiu don't build as much muscle, but you keep what you get. Also, winstrol increases bone density. Now, it is interesting to note that winstrol is second only to trenbelone in terms of its anticatabolic property, and in fact, I think it is superior on a mg for mg basis, but I cannot yet support this claim with the appropriate science. Call it a hunch for now. Of course, my hypothesis that winstrol acted on a unique receptor found in the skin was a hunch for about a year, and later turned out to be proven in a study that was posted on AF, and that receptor is as of yet unidentified. Lets just say I had my reasons. Moving on...

Here is what we are left with. A superior anticatabolic compound that increases body temperature. Well, shit! What more do you need for cutting? Moreover, our strength is greatly enhanced because we are able to build on top of the matured muscle rather than burn it up. Ok. This little overview might help to clarify some of the statements that were, unfortunately, clumsily written in the initial post.

FS

 

[MR. BMJ]

Whoa.....this threads getting pretty personal.

Guess it will end up getting closed, but thought i'd add another fukkenshredded post to the mix to ponder on.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Here it is: Fukkenshredded

Winstrol burns fat directly. I have explained the mechanism several times on this board. Do a search.

In case you're just too lazy, or you aren't platinum (I'm not), the short expalantion is this:

Winstrol elevates body temperature and exhibits a uniquely effective anticatabolic effect on the body.

The elevated body temp burns the fat, the anticatabolism spares the muscle.

That's why you hear stories of minimal gains with noticable fat loss.

The effect is enhanced if used with a low dose of prop.

Anyone who has used winny at 100mg/day with prop at 50mg/day will tell you for absolute certain that this stack burns fat directly.

Of course, if you eat like shit you will not get as good of results as if you diet correctly. But as to the question of winstrol burning fat, the answer is yes.

By the way, fina also burns fat directly, although the mechanism is slightly different. The increased blood volume in the muscle cell results in an enhanced bioactivity in the organism as a whole, therefore requiring more energy to be burned. Fina is the supreme anticatabolic steroid, so again, we have a preservation of muscle along with accelerated biological activity.

Which of course equals fat loss.

Not all steroids are equal. If they were, there would be no difference in anecdotal accounts of impact, would there?

FS

 

[Jenetic]

With the addition of Ulter's post and FS's information provided by MR BMJ, I stand corrected on the issue of thermogenesis being unrelated to AAS.

Jenetic

 

[Mr.X]

Whoa.....this threads getting pretty personal.

Guess it will end up getting closed, but thought i'd add another fukkenshredded post to the mix to ponder on.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

You're right, I just deleted 3 threads insulting Jenetic - full swearing (FU**, ASSHO**) etc.. and 1 thread that said something about Victor being a "CO********" and 3 others by WJ Am .... (can't remember the spelling) that was spamming and got banned. So this thread IS getting out of hand.

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

For future posters, please stop the straight swear words like "FU**, ASSHO***, DIC*****, GO**, etc....although this thread is getting into strong waters, I prefer no swearing here please it's against elite TOS.

Mr.X

 

[RADAR]

What ever is developing here needs to stop RIGHT NOW!!!!!
I believe you both (Mt X & Jenetic ) Have alot to contribute however all these accusations with spook and such is doing absolutely nothing for the integrety and the quality of the posts that is being smeared on this thread.



RADAR