Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
Is Winstrol making me heavier??
- Thread starter Race car Driver
- Start date
- Status
Whatever! I took tren at 50mg./day and ate shitty ass food and lost 2 and 1/2 inches off my weight without even doing a little cardio! Tren burns fat like no other, I don't care if there is no proof, the stuff works! Imagine what it would be like if I was on a diet! Come summer boys, tren/test/winnie! I'll look amazing!
R
roidpuple
Guest
Mr.X said:
Mr.X said:
Great study on children. It doesn't even have the intention of investigating anything in regards to fat mass. I can cleary see how this would pertain to the discussion at hand.
It's easy to argue using bodybuilder studies. You know they don't exist. Good strategy though. Also, you specifically use the dieting scenario to support your argument. It's obvious diet and exercise will be responisble for the large majority of fat loss in this scenario. The goal with oxandrolone in this scenario would be to act as an aid in maintaining muscle mass through enhanced protein synthesis and possible glucocorticoid modulation. The following studies aren't the best, but they do indicate oxandrolone specifically with a reduction in total, visceral and subcutaneous fat mass.
Treatment with oxandrolone and the durability of effects in older men
E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Kevin E. Yarasheski, Dajun Qian, Yolanda Stewart, Carla Flores, Carmen Martinez, Michael Terk and Fred R. Sattler
We investigated the effects of the anabolic androgen, oxandrolone, on lean body mass (LBM), muscle size, fat, and maximum voluntary muscle strength, and we determined the durability of effects after treatment was stopped. Thirty-two healthy 60- to 87-yr-old men were randomized to receive 20 mg oxandrolone/day (n = 20) or placebo (n = 12) for 12 wk. Body composition [dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), magnetic resonance imaging, and 2H2O dilution] and muscle strength [1 repetition maximum (1 RM)] were evaluated at baseline and after 12 wk of treatment; body composition (DEXA) and 1-RM strength were then assessed 12 wk after treatment was discontinued (week 24). At week 12, oxandrolone increased LBM by 3.0 ± 1.5 kg (P < 0.001), total body water by 2.9 ± 3.7 kg (P = 0.002), and proximal thigh muscle area by 12.4 ± 8.4 cm2 (P < 0.001); these increases were greater (P < 0.003) than in the placebo group. Oxandrolone increased 1-RM strength for leg press by 6.7 ± 6.4% (P < 0.001), leg flexion by 7.0 ± 7.8% (P < 0.001), chest press by 9.3 ± 6.7% (P < 0.001), and latissimus pull-down exercises by 5.1 ± 9.1% (P = 0.02); these increases were greater than placebo. Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.9 ± 1.0 kg) and trunk fat (-1.3 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and these decreases were greater (P < 0.001) than placebo. Twelve weeks after oxandrolone was discontinued (week 24), the increments in LBM and muscle strength were no longer different from baseline (P > 0.15). However, the decreases in total and trunk fat were sustained (-1.5 ± 1.8, P = 0.001 and -1.0 ± 1.1 kg, P < 0.001, respectively). Thus oxandrolone induced short-term improvements in LBM, muscle area, and strength, while reducing whole body and trunk adiposity. Anabolic improvements were lost 12 wk after discontinuing oxandrolone, whereas improvements in fat mass were largely sustained.
Effects of Androgen Therapy on Adipose Tissue and Metabolism in Older Men
E. Todd Schroeder, Ling Zheng, Michelle D. Ong, Carmen Martinez, Carla Flores, Yolanda Stewart, Colleen Azen and Fred R. Sattler
We investigated the effects of oxandrolone on regional fat compartments and markers of metabolism. Thirty-two 60- to 87-yr-old men (body mass index, 28.1 ± 3.4 kg/m2) were randomized to oxandrolone (20 mg/d; n = 20) or matching placebo (n = 12) treatment for 12 wk. Oxandrolone reduced total (–1.8 ± 1.0 kg; P < 0.001), trunk (–1.2 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and appendicular (–0.6 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001) fat, as determined by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry. The changes in total and trunk fat were greater (P < 0.001) than the changes with placebo. By magnetic resonance imaging, visceral adipose tissue decreased (–20.9 ± 12 cm2; P < 0.001), abdominal sc adipose tissue (SAT) declined (–10.7 ± 12.1 cm2; P = 0.043), the ratio VAT/SAT declined from 0.57 ± 0.23 to 0.49 ± 0.19 (P = 0.002), and proximal and distal thigh SC fat declined [–8.3 ± 6.7 cm2 (P < 0.001) and –2.2 ± 3.0 kg (P = 0.004), respectively]. Changes in proximal and distal thigh SC fat with oxandrolone were different than with placebo (P = 0.018 and P = 0.059). A marker of insulin sensitivity (quantitative insulin sensitivity check index) improved with oxandrolone by 0.0041 ± 0.0071 (P = 0.018) at study wk 12. Changes in total fat, abdominal SAT, and proximal extremity SC fat were correlated with changes in fasting insulin from baseline to study wk 12 (r 0.45; P < 0.05). Losses of total fat and SAT were greater in men with baseline testosterone of 10.4 nmol/liter or less ( 300 ng/dl) than in those with higher levels [–2.5 ± 1.1 vs. –1.5 ± 0.8 kg (P = 0.036) and –24.1 ± 14.3 vs. –2.9 ± 21.3 cm2 (P = 0.03), respectively]. Twelve weeks after discontinuing oxandrolone, 83% of the reductions in total, trunk, and extremity fat by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry scanning were sustained (P < 0.02). Androgen therapy, therefore, produced significant and durable reductions in regional abdominal and peripheral adipose tissue that were associated with improvements in estimates of insulin sensitivity. However, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol decreased by –0.49 ± 0.21 mmol/liter and directly measured low-density lipoprotein cholesterol increased by 0.57 ± 0.67 mmol/liter and non-high-density lipoprotein cholesterol increased by 0.54 ± 0.97 mmol/liter (P < 0.03 for each) during treatment with oxandrolone; these changes were largely reversible. Thus, therapy with an androgen that does not adversely affect lipids may be beneficial for some components of the metabolic syndrome in overweight older men with low testosterone levels.
Regardless of the limited information available and specific mechanisms discussed, a significant effect on fat mass is displayed versus placebo. Nobody is arguing the fact that diet (caloric intake/macronutrient profile) and exercise (caloric expenditure) plays the largest and most important role in fat loss, but AAS can have a profound impact on fat mass through secondary/non traditional pathways as well.
Jenetic
Last edited:
M
Mr.X
Guest
Yes, that's right, Treatment with oxandrolone and the durability of effects in older men
Treatment of old men is very applicable to bodybuilders. When you come up with something that's actually in relation to an athlete or a bodybuilder come back and post - for now, you make as much of an argument as Victor did.
Mr.X
Treatment of old men is very applicable to bodybuilders. When you come up with something that's actually in relation to an athlete or a bodybuilder come back and post - for now, you make as much of an argument as Victor did.
Mr.X
It's far more applicable than that ridiculous study on children you posted. Children? What's even more absurd is your association of "thermogenesis" with androgens. Thermogenesis? 
That's pretty embarrassing.
You're defense by asking anyone to provide a study performed on bodybuilders is rather desperate. We all know they don't exist. That's pretty sad when you have to stoop that low just to get the last word in for the sake of the discussion.
Androgens do have traditional and non traditional effects on lipolysis. It's a fact that applies to everyone and not just bodybuilders. Just accept it.
With all due respect, I really expected a more intellectually challenging and professional response from someone like you.
Jenetic
That's pretty embarrassing.You're defense by asking anyone to provide a study performed on bodybuilders is rather desperate. We all know they don't exist. That's pretty sad when you have to stoop that low just to get the last word in for the sake of the discussion.
Androgens do have traditional and non traditional effects on lipolysis. It's a fact that applies to everyone and not just bodybuilders. Just accept it.
With all due respect, I really expected a more intellectually challenging and professional response from someone like you.
Jenetic
Last edited:
M
Mr.X
Guest
Jenetic said:It's far more applicable than that ridiculous study on children you posted. Children? What's even more absurd is your association of "thermogenesis" with androgens. Thermogenesis?
You're defense by asking anyone to provide a study performed on bodybuilders is rather desperate. We all know they don't exist. That's pretty sad when you have to stoop that low just to get the last word in for the sake of the discussion.
Androgens do have traditional and non traditional effects on lipolysis. It's a fact that applies to everyone and not just bodybuilders. Just accept it.
With all due respect, I really expected a more intellectually challenging and professional response from someone like you.
Jenetic
Jenetic,
My study was an example of what one should post, if you pulled your head out of your ass you could see that. If you go re-read my posts without this egomaniac thing you have going, you would see that I clearly stated that I didn't feel any thermogenic effect from AS because it DOES NOT have any and is not supposed to have any.
Androgens DO NOT have effects on lipolysis, it's not a fact, it's BS you're putting forward without true facts. When you come back with studies on athletes or bodybuilders to back your point we can talk, for now you're wasting my time.
Honestly, I wasn't expecting much more from you then this after you pulled that fiasco on MMSFitness where you tried to blame Spook for calling you FONZ, and you pretended you were in China or some BS like that. Give me a break Jenetic, I've been on these boards for over 6 years, and I've seen "gurus" like you come and go, so in the end of the day everything that I read from you I find just as educating as the crap I used to read on Tredia - where everyone was a guru.
When you stop saying that EVERYTHING is FACT because YOU said so, then we can continue this conversation, for now you're just another "self-made" guru trying to prove his point on the internet instead of trying to educate people as I do.
Mr.X
- Status
