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If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

Re: Re: Re: Re: If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

2Thick said:


LOL... I would never recommend 600mg of Deca. That is a pair of man-boobies waiting to grow.
Click to expand...

So, where is the line for Deca dosage, when user gets gyno and when not?
If someone predisposed to Deca gyno, how much lesser are his chances of getting gyno from 300mg/week then from 600mg/week? I don't get this "careful" approache, it's safer to stay natural and just eat a little more.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

panerai said:


So, where is the line for Deca dosage, when user gets gyno and when not?
If someone predisposed to Deca gyno, how much lesser are his chances of getting gyno from 300mg/week then from 600mg/week? I don't get this "careful" approache, it's safer to stay natural and just eat a little more.
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I would recommend 500mg/week as a maximum for Deca (and the like).

Those rare people who are predisposed to progesterone-induced gyno (like Ranger) will find out no matter the dosage.

I am not saying it is safer to take less, just more logical since more does not mean better when you go above 500 with deca and 750-1k with test. These are not theories takling...these are from experience and first-hand accounts.
 
nikolai_bolkov said:
If you're a beginner just do this:

500mg Test\week
400 mg Deca\week
30mg Dbol\Day

End of story.
Click to expand...

That's just plain stupid. 150 lbs noobies don't need to be doing over a gram of juice a week for a first cycle.

End of story.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

2Thick said:


I would recommend 500mg/week as a maximum for Deca (and the like).

Those rare people who are predisposed to progesterone-induced gyno (like Ranger) will find out no matter the dosage.

I am not saying it is safer to take less, just more logical since more does not mean better when you go above 500 with deca and 750-1k with test. These are not theories takling...these are from experience and first-hand accounts.
Click to expand...

Well, from my experience I got the best gains(not including my first cycle) when I was on 2g of Test and more then a gram of Deca a week. :)
 
DTOX said:


That's just plain stupid. 150 lbs noobies don't need to be doing over a gram of juice a week for a first cycle.

End of story.
Click to expand...

150lb noobi shouldn't use steroids, unless he's 5'3" of course.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

panerai said:


Well, from my experience I got the best gains(not including my first cycle) when I was on 2g of Test and more then a gram of Deca a week. :)
Click to expand...

See now that's when I go wow, lol.

-sk
 
I like Ulter's posts...
 
panerai said:
150lb noobi shouldn't use steroids, unless he's 5'3" of course.
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I'd most likely agree.

My point was that on EF he'd have a dozen people telling him to do 1g/wk of Test plus dbol, fina, deca, eq for 12 weeks with 25 IU humalog and 10 IU hGH post-workout.
 
2Thick, I was hoping you could explain your reasons for not liking test, after all, most would argue since test occurs naturally in the body what would make a better choice than to pump your body up with additional testosterone, be it synthetic. Seems to be a safe bet when given such a wide variety of steroids that everyone seems to say one is better than the other.

None of these reflect my opinion I think it could add some more great information to this heated thread.
 
ulter said:
Doses to gains in on a straight line up. How far up the line goes we may never know.
Click to expand...

if gains were linearly dependent on dose, then one could maxout his growth potential with just one cycle assuming the dose was high enouph............YET THAT NEVER HAPPENED
 
Very interesting post...

I read somewhere that a good formula for optimal gains is the following:

Androgens/week = Bodyweight in lbs x 4
Anabolics/week = Bodyweight in lbs x 2.5

I think it was an article by Trevor Smith from nuclearnutrition.com, so following the formula an example for a 200lbs bodybuilder is:

200 x 4 = 800mg Test
200 x 2.5 500mg Deca

Another one for a 250lbs bodybuilder:

250 x 4 = 1000mg Test
250 x 2.5 = 625 ~ 600mg Deca

These dosages seem reasonable to me, what do you think about it??

Do you think is bullshit or a good parameter..?
 
So I am weighint in at about 265. Got some BF around 15%. Gonna go a round with Deca, Sus, & possible Dbol. What dosages should I focus on for max gain/retention. How frequent?
 
When people say they gained 30 lbs off their first cycle they most likey only put on 10-15 pounds or less of LBM. Not to mention their ability to hold on to their gains.

I can easily put on 20 pounds of LBM +20 lbs of fat as a natty in 10 weeks at 300 lbs 30% BF.

I'm against the use of Deca in all humans and cows, intramuscular fat no thank you. Well maybe for the cows, but not the bulls.

Who can find out what my first cycle doses were? :D

I'll post a pink elephant in your honor :)
 
why then just double the dose - why not tripple or quadruple it?

I've just finished a 10 weeker of 250mg test p/wk. I'm almost 300 pounds now. I gained 20 pounds (believe I could have gained 30 but had some diet and illness and injury issues) and now five weeks after my cycle I began to drop a little weight and strength.
Now it is coming back and I am not taking any anti e's or any other shit.
I have absolutely no sides, no high blood pressure, no nothing just a big gain of lean solid muscle mass.
Next time I'll be sure to take 10 times that (the theory being I'll never have to bother again as I will have reached Olympia standard) - however of course I will also be dead...
my belief, based solely on my logic and experimentation is take as little as you can get away with at the beginning.
If you would like to live as well and as long as possible try a little moderation fellas...(oh and it also is alot cheaper too)...
 
Also consider what gear and massive weight gain is short time periods does to your heart. It's a muscle too - it bloats up big and then you come off and your heart will atrophy just like your visible muscle mass except while your other muscles can get rest your heart has no choice but to keep on pumping just as hard if not harder to get blood around all that extra mass on your frame plus deal with all the extra possible cholestoral etc.

How long you think your heart is gonna last?

I'm over 30 years old now - I've done a few cycles over the years here and there and an awful lot of heavy hard training.
Tell you something especially you younger guys (not preaching here you understand) - as you get older your muscle mass looks better and better and you start to notice gains that you couldn't get naturally when you were younger. For the first time in my life I have separation and depth coming out in my quads that i didn't believe possible except without recourse to loads of gear.
Now it is like all the hard , mostly natural work is paying off.
Don't get me wrong - I use gear from time to time - I like it.
But I love the intensity and the challenge of training natural and while I have breath in my body I will continue to grow and look better and better as safely and as long as possible.
 
got big? said:
2Thick, I was hoping you could explain your reasons for not liking test, after all, most would argue since test occurs naturally in the body what would make a better choice than to pump your body up with additional testosterone, be it synthetic. Seems to be a safe bet when given such a wide variety of steroids that everyone seems to say one is better than the other.

None of these reflect my opinion I think it could add some more great information to this heated thread.
Click to expand...

hmmm...i was not aware that 2 thick didnt like test.

2thick can you elaborate for us?
 
AlbinoAssassin said:
The law of diminishing returns applies to all things. Of course, within reason increasing the dosage will increase gains. You said that doubling your dose will double your gains period, how can one study back that up. I guess it all comes down to how much you are willing to risk your health
Click to expand...

DeepZenPill said:
All you high dose bastards can go to hell
Click to expand...

If you go into each cycle clean and in damn good shape... you'll NEVER need to double the dosage. The results of my summer cycle are evidence of this philosophy.
 
SCOTTY-TWO-HOTTY said:




If you go into each cycle clean and in damn good shape... you'll NEVER need to double the dosage. The results of my summer cycle are evidence of this philosophy.
Click to expand...

aw come on bro.

you cant say that and not post your cycle. LOL

lets hear
 
8 week cycle... ran it June through July. Consisted of 250mg Sustenon/week stacked with 50mg Winstrol-V/ED. I was clean for 8 months prior to this cycle. I'm NOT one of those fuckers who only trains while 'on'. I trained my ass off that entire time... went into this cycle hard as nails. I gained hard muscle this summer better than I did during my first cycle. I'm 20lbs heavier than I was 3 months ago... still big, still hard, still strong.

This was my 6th cycle in the past four years... several of those cycles exceeded the gram/week dose. I consider the cycle I did this summer light. I'm sure by most standards its light.

Ulter- You're a good Bro... I mean no disrespect to you. But to say that gains/miligram dosage is a linear equation is absurd. The study you posted is rivaled by a myriad of other studies that've concluded the more drugs you use... the more the effects(of those drugs)diminish.
 
Last edited:
bignbadn, Your heart doesn't grow like your arm.

STH This study is only proving in a controlled invironment what has been proven on this board for over 3 years. Before this was a newbie board the people here would post amazing results from using 600mg E2 proposed as opposed to 300mg that 2Thick proposed. It's nothing new that gains to doses are linear on a first cycle. This is just study that found the same results.
 
ulter said:
This study is only proving in a controlled invironment what has been proven on this board for over 3 years. Before this was a newbie board the people here would post amazing results from using 600mg E2 proposed as opposed to 300mg that 2Thick proposed. It's nothing new that gains to doses are linear on a first cycle. This is just study that found the same results.
Click to expand...

Nice.
 
Well, if you can gain say 15lbs in 8 weeks of only moderate doses, i dont see why you would want to go any higher on dose......sure you might gain more, but who says you will keep it? At 500mg test and 500mg ref-b, my first cycle was a 30+ pounder, but guess what.....after cutting the fat, i kept about 10. Your body can only hold so much new mass in 8 weeks, if its too much, your body cant hold and you will loose it.
 
The problem I have with this study is that it only tests a relatively low dose. Newbies will read this and think "gee, if I double my dose from 1gram test to 2 grams maybe I'll get 60 lbs from my next cycle."
I want to see someone try to prove that one.
 
Of course, double dosage doesn't mean doule gains, literally, but it's A VERY GOOD POINT! The more you grow, the more anabolics you need in order to keep growing.
And, don't forget about HGH, insulin, and other drugs that are so helpful in gaining muscle mass.
 
panerai said:
Of course, double dosage doesn't mean doule gains, literally, but it's A VERY GOOD POINT! The more you grow, the more anabolics you need in order to keep growing.
And, don't forget about HGH, insulin, and other drugs that are so helpful in gaining muscle mass.
Click to expand...


finally, someone that actually read more than the first sentence!
 
Ulter said:
There has been an awful lot of discussion about whether 300mg/wk is enough test for a first cycle. Nelson and some of the "moderate mods" have been posting for quite some time that 300mg/wk is a good first cycle. Those of us who have used much more have been saying to use more because the gains are so much more and the sides are pretty much the same.
Why would you go through all the hassle of a cycle, injecting, scoring, etc. and then settle on gains that you'd get at 300mg when you could DOUBLE your growth if you used 600mg/wk.
The standard reply from the low dose group has always been "you don't double your gains by doubling your doses".
Well fellas, that not true.
If you use 600mg instead of 300mg per week of test YOU WILL DOUBLE YOUR GAINS. No if's ands or buts about it.

Here is a link to the full study that proves it. Finally.


http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/Development of models to predict anabolic response.pdf
Click to expand...

This thread came before my time, but is worth checking out for sure
 
Ulter said:
It depends on your goals. The dbol is more fun and the Oxanadrolone is better for cutting and hardening. Anadrol I am not big on just because the gains are so fleeting.
500mg test and 400 eq is a good plan to build on though.
Click to expand...

apparantly, I'm the only person in the world who cant grow on EQ.
 
Ok, I NEVER post, but let’s throw some #’s around here that I’ve tested on myself over the last year with blood work and my Doctor….

200mg of long acting test per week (lets use CYP) will bring my levels up about 650ng.

The ranges are normally from 220ng-1000ng for TOTAL Testosterone.

So say I’m around 500ng and I take 200mg of cyp a week. That will bump me up to 1150ng. That’s about as high as a healthy male teenager..!!!

I don’t know about everyone here but I would rather be more then 4 times that.
 
My first cycle ever was 500mg of sust for 8 weeks and 50mg of winny. If I ahd to do it again, I'd still run the sust at 500mg but wouldnt touch winny with a 10ft pole. I'd rather throw dbols in the mix. 500mg of test with another compound is a good start. Enough to see some gains not enough to cause all kinds of problems or break your bank account.
 
Killer Cobra said:
Ok, I NEVER post, but let’s throw some #’s around here that I’ve tested on myself over the last year with blood work and my Doctor….

200mg of long acting test per week (lets use CYP) will bring my levels up about 650ng.

The ranges are normally from 220ng-1000ng for TOTAL Testosterone.

So say I’m around 500ng and I take 200mg of cyp a week. That will bump me up to 1150ng. That’s about as high as a healthy male teenager..!!!

I don’t know about everyone here but I would rather be more then 4 times that.
Click to expand...
Long acting? Maybe for a few days you'll get your test levels sitting at 650ng. You're on crack my man, you dont know what you're talking about.
 
I remember this discussion. And there isn't yet a final proof to say that double dose better gains. I think all goes at the end (as always) on each person. Everybody reacts different. While maybe a newbie can't see results from 250mg test enan per week, maybe another can put a lot of pounds from 250mg per week. We still have some experiments to do on ourselves.
 
Ulter said:
There has been an awful lot of discussion about whether 300mg/wk is enough test for a first cycle. Nelson and some of the "moderate mods" have been posting for quite some time that 300mg/wk is a good first cycle. Those of us who have used much more have been saying to use more because the gains are so much more and the sides are pretty much the same.
Why would you go through all the hassle of a cycle, injecting, scoring, etc. and then settle on gains that you'd get at 300mg when you could DOUBLE your growth if you used 600mg/wk.
The standard reply from the low dose group has always been "you don't double your gains by doubling your doses".
Well fellas, that not true.
If you use 600mg instead of 300mg per week of test YOU WILL DOUBLE YOUR GAINS. No if's ands or buts about it.

Here is a link to the full study that proves it. Finally.


http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/Development of models to predict anabolic response.pdf
Click to expand...


Im not sure--in theory, it should work with most substances HOWEVER WHY THE HELL CANT IT WORK AT HOME!!!!!

I WANT TO DOUBLE MY PLEASURE IN BED, WHY CANT I TRADE IN THE WIFE FOR 2 FU(KING HOTTIES!!!!!!!!!!
 
will b huge said:
Im not sure--in theory, it should work with most substances HOWEVER WHY THE HELL CANT IT WORK AT HOME!!!!!

I WANT TO DOUBLE MY PLEASURE IN BED, WHY CANT I TRADE IN THE WIFE FOR 2 FU(KING HOTTIES!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...



LMAO bro...thats some, funny shit
 
of course i have to put my 2 cents in. newbes should not do double dose at all. the reason for the smaller dose is to see how your body reacts. some people can do well on mow doses and not need to double it. a friend of mine did a 2g tren kit in 1 week. unless he lied to me he said a week after he started that he was out and needed more. he literally injected it into every major muscle. he swore the more you take the bigger you get. you know what, he looked exactly the same a month later, 2 months later, and so on. it also has a lot to do in how you train and eat as well.

newbes, do not double your dose thinking your gonna be the Hulk when you get done. thats the same as me saying if you read more muscle mags youll get huge. wont happen.
 
You have to employ a little common sense with this study and this post. BTW, this study was mentioned in an old Muscle Media issue back in the day.

In a lot of cases using a larger amount of AAS will generally result in bigger gains. if this is your first cycle you will get about the same gains as long as you are using at least a dosage that is worthwhile. Above that you might not see much difference.

If you're constantly cycling on and off, stacking several different types and already doing 1gram/week, then no, using 2 grams per week won't double your gains.

Just use some common sense. It's better to speak in general terms with this study than absolute terms.
 
all i have to say is the difference between 400mg of deca and 600mg of deca on my first cycle was night and DAY. no ifs ands or buts about it. i don't think he is saying that everytime double your dose you will double your gains, he is saying if your gonna run 250mg just do 500mg the sides and recovery will be the same and you will yield more with the higher dose, with that said you cannot argue with people who are able to get good results with low doses, it just doesn't work that way for all of us
 
i think its more along the lines of doing test at 500mg for 8 weeks then uping the dose half way through and running 1g for the following 8 weeks...that would be the way to go imo
 
"Now I wish they would have included 900mg/wk and 1,200mg/wk in the study!"

I can just see the line for the study volunteers winding down the highway from state to state.


I sat here looking at the sticky threads by Nelson, Quadsweep, Realgains and the rest of the "sane moderators" telling guys to use 300mg for their first cycle for two months running. E2 tried, I tried, conan tried, several other vets tried to get people to understand that this was a mistake to use 300mg instead of 600mg. The truth is now evident that all those that followed this "sane" advice were in fact cheated out of what were probably well deserved gains and for no good reason.

Like Fonz I am still waiting to see what possible argument they have left.
Click to expand...


I am no steroid guru or endocrinologist, however this is the only logical explanation I could think of:

PERSON A:

If you do 300 your first time and get 15 lbs.

Then you do 600 your second time and get 30 lbs.

Then you do 900 and get 15 pounds

PERSON B:

Start with 600 and gain 30 lbs.

Jump to 900 and get 15 lbs. (Because of the diminishing returns at higher end)

Do 1200 and you get 15 lbs.

Person A will have netted 60 pounds and used less than the person B... Obviously this is an oversimplification, however I think as you approach that limit it will all even out in the end, however if you start lower you will have used less along the way in reaching your genetic limit...
 
Why double your dose if you don't have to though? Better to plateau at lower doses first. Otherwise your cheating yourself.
 
Why double your dose if you don't have to though? Better to plateau at lower doses first. Otherwise your cheating yourself.
Click to expand...

In the words of yoda:

Throw gasoline onto a perfectly burning fire hmm... Burn out and be left with no where to go he will...
 
slyder190 said:
Why double your dose if you don't have to though? Better to plateau at lower doses first. Otherwise your cheating yourself.
Click to expand...


i was speaking in terms of double my benefit at home in bed---why double my dose at home by trading in my wife for 2 fu(king hotties!!!!!!

:Perk:
 
DeepZenPill said:
All you high dose bastards can go to hell ;)

If my body didn't like getting stretch marks so easily, and if my tendons weren't girly-men, I would go with higher doses. For some of us safety while cycling is paramount. People who lose hair easily, or get gyno easily, get stretch marks easily, etc.

It is quite interesting that you can actually double your gains with that increase though, but low dose cycles aren't worthless.
Click to expand...

I agree
 
i didn't have time to read thru all the crap.. but if this has been mentioned already.. sorry:

ANYONE gaining 20-30lbs off a cycle, SHOULD NOT being juicing in the first place!!! That just means your lazy and are not anywhere near your genetic limit. 'Nuff Said
 
while i agree that for an experienced lifter 20-30 lbs in a cycle is very tough to accomplish. ronnie coleman put on 50lbs in a year (03-04) went from 247 on stage to 297.
yates put on about 25lbs in about the same amount of time.
not saying this is the case for most people, but some experienced lifters have managed to make incredible gains as well.


hawaii50 said:
i didn't have time to read thru all the crap.. but if this has been mentioned already.. sorry:

ANYONE gaining 20-30lbs off a cycle, SHOULD NOT being juicing in the first place!!! That just means your lazy and are not anywhere near your genetic limit. 'Nuff Said
Click to expand...
 
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