I can't drop the fat

[sonicwaste]

I'm about at my wits end with trying to drop bodyfat. It feels like I have everything in check. I've got my supps/gear, diet, cardio, and weight training in check but I am noticeably fatter.

I started dieting in early January. Lifting 6 days per week, 45 minutes-1 hour of cardio 7 days per week. Diet was very clean, but not perfect. I dropped some weight, but burned more muscle than anything. I lost about 5lbs in that 6 week span. I wasn't satisfied with the results so, I figured I'd go on a cutting cycle and really shape things up and step the whole process up to the next level.

So for the past 2 weeks, I have been near perfect with my diet/training. No fat loss whatsoever in 2 weeks.

Here is my info:

Stats: 5'10" 196lbs 13%bf
Cycle: 100mg prop eod, 50mg anavar ed, .25mg arimidex eod
Supps: Lipoflame, lipostim, amplify

I am doing 12-15 minutes of HIT cardio 6 days per week. Lifting 6 days per week.

BMR is 2019

Diet:
I am eating approx 1800 calories per day

250g protein
100g carbs
50g fat

My sources for protein: Chicken, Fish, Lean Beef, Egg Whites, Soy, Whey, Casein

My sources for carbs: Whole grain brown rice, whole grain brown rice cakes, whole oats, vegetables

My sources for fats: Flax Oil, Milled flax seed, all natural peanut butter

I'm eating every 2-3 hours. 1+ gallon of water per day.

I have not strayed from this diet for 14 days, and I am up bodyfat... I am noticeably fatter, it's unreal.

Funny thing is my muscle volume, hardness, and vascularity has increased along with my strength. My bodyfat just won't leave.

I can't think of anything wrong, but there has to be something wrong with my diet. Maybe I am not eating enough calories? Maybe my ratios could be better?

Any advice or words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated. I don't expect the fat to melt overnight... But I have done basically this same diet/supp/training in the past and have lost 3 lbs/week.

I'm up for some suggestions.

Thanks

 

[sonicwaste]

Two more things;

I do my cardio/workout in the morning on empty stomach.

I have increased my sleep from 4-6 hours to 8-9 hours depending on the day.

 

[Elementality]

I'm not very qualified to answer this but I'll take a stab.

How are you testing your bodyfat. Maybe the look of the fat, and bodyfat % result is innaccurate due to bloat or water retention from the cycle?

 

[sonicwaste]

Thanks for the reply Element.

It's hard to believe that I could be holding that much water considering I am taking arimidex. Still a possibility though, I am not ruling anything out at this point.

I am using caliper method to measure bodyfat.

 

[dabuffguy]

Ever do refeed days with more carbs?

 

[sonicwaste]

Ever do refeed days with more carbs?

I have done that in the past, but I haven't done it on this cutting regimen. I'll try it. When is a good time; on my off day, or on my heaviest workout day?

 

[timtim]

if youre eating that same diet everyday, thats 1 problem. your body is simply downregulating to match low caloric intake. another point is hiit cardio is not meant to be done daily. its a 2 to 3 times a week at most training style. youre lifting too much too, 6 days a week is alot.

at 1800 calories a day, youre getting less than 10 calories per pound of bodyweight. time to reassess the diet and start calorie/carb/fat cycling. you are stagnating or going backward because of your diet.

 

[desmond]

your calorie intake appears to low, but I don't think is the problem - a low calorie intake will not halt ur fat loss initially, so u'd at least see that (takes a while for metabolism to slow).

Are you 100% confident that ur scales are working properly? I realised mine had become old and incurrate and no longer weighing food properly - so had to throw them out. How much of the beef are u eating? Are you 100% confident of its fat content?

My first instinct is that ur someone calculating ur food cals wrong and are consuming more than 1800.

Post ur diet (meal schedules etc) for people to critique.

Timtim: I totally disagree that his body in this period of time - 2 weeks of strict dieting - would have downregulated his cal intake to such a degree. It takes longer than this and fat loss would have at least occurred before this downregulation would have occurred.

 

[timtim]

your calorie intake appears to low, but I don't think is the problem - a low calorie intake will not halt ur fat loss initially, so u'd at least see that (takes a while for metabolism to slow).

Are you 100% confident that ur scales are working properly? I realised mine had become old and incurrate and no longer weighing food properly - so had to throw them out. How much of the beef are u eating? Are you 100% confident of its fat content?

My first instinct is that ur someone calculating ur food cals wrong and are consuming more than 1800.

Post ur diet (meal schedules etc) for people to critique.

Timtim: I totally disagree that his body in this period of time - 2 weeks of strict dieting - would have downregulated his cal intake to such a degree. It takes longer than this and fat loss would have at least occurred before this downregulation would have occurred.[/QUOTE]

i missed that 2 week part. my bad. i agree, wrong.

 

[sonicwaste]

Here is a couple of samples of my meals. A bit different than I described above as far as ratios go... My protein intake could be higher by 50-75 grams/day. That would be an easy fix, I could just add another protein shake in and get my calories as well as my protein up. It looks that I am getting between 175-225g protein, 100-135g carbs, right around 50g fat.

Sample 1-

Meal 1: Whey Protein Shake w/ soy milk, 1tbsp flax oil, 1 cup whole oats
460 calories

Meal 2: 2 whole grain rice cakes w/ 1tbsp natural peanut butter
258 calories

Meal 3: 1 cup whole grain rice, a can tunafish
405 calories

Meal 4: 1 cup whole grain rice, 4oz lean beef, 1 serving asparagus or green beans
512 calories

Meal 5: Casein Protein Shake w/ soy milk
210 calories

1843 calories total

Sample 2 -

Meal 1: 6 egg white, 1 cup whole grain rice


Meal 2: Whey protein shake w/ soy mils, 1tbsp flax oil


Meal 3: 1 Cup oats w/ whey protein and milled flax seed


Meal 4: 6oz fish, 1 sweet potato, green beans, flax oil drizzle


Meal 5: Casein Protein shake w/ soy milk

Approx 1825 calories

 

[sonicwaste]

I'm up for changing my diet by adding or taking away. Let me know what about it is good, what could be better, and what I definitely need to change.

The HIIT cardio is a recent addition to my workout scheme. I am up for changing that too.

My food scale is brand new, so I don't think there is a problem with it reading incorrectly.

 

[desmond]

To be honest I don't know ur not droping weight, but possible improvements include

Here is a couple of samples of my meals. A bit different than I described above as far as ratios go... My protein intake could be higher by 50-75 grams/day. That would be an easy fix, I could just add another protein shake in and get my calories as well as my protein up. It looks that I am getting between 175-225g protein, 100-135g carbs, right around 50g fat.

Sample 1-

Meal 1: Whey Protein Shake w/ soy milk, 1tbsp flax oil, 1 cup whole oats
460 calories

May not make any difference, but you could try and separate the flaxseed oil from insulingenic whey + carb combo. There are no studies really to support macro separation like this, but some bodybuilders claimed they have benefited from it

Meal 2: 2 whole grain rice cakes w/ 1tbsp natural peanut butter
258 calories

NOT A GOOD SOURCE OF CARBS and WHERE iS THE PROTEIN

Meal 3: 1 cup whole grain rice, a can tunafish
405 calories

COULD ADD FIBEROUS VEGGIE

Meal 4: 1 cup whole grain rice, 4oz lean beef, 1 serving asparagus or green beans
512 calories

Meal 5: Casein Protein Shake w/ soy milk

You could consider ditching the soy milk and for meal 1 replacing it with actual milk
210 calories

1843 calories total

Sample 2 -

Meal 1: 6 egg white, 1 cup whole grain rice


Meal 2: Whey protein shake w/ soy mils, 1tbsp flax oil


Meal 3: 1 Cup oats w/ whey protein and milled flax seed


Meal 4: 6oz fish, 1 sweet potato, green beans, flax oil drizzle


Meal 5: Casein Protein shake w/ soy milk

Approx 1825 calories

 

[sonicwaste]

Thanks for the feedback desmond. I'll definitely try separating the flax oil, definitely worth a shot.

I can easily nix the rice cakes/peanut butter and add another protein shake or meal replacement shake.

Oh, and I can't do regular milk... as I am lactose intolerant.

 

[desmond]

Thanks for the feedback desmond. I'll definitely try separating the flax oil, definitely worth a shot.

I can easily nix the rice cakes/peanut butter and add another protein shake or meal replacement shake.

Oh, and I can't do regular milk... as I am lactose intolerant.

I only raised the soy issue b/c of the fear mongering that it is estrogenic and can affect your thyroid. You can research these points if u are concerned.

Most soy milk contains carbs so u could drop it prebed to improve your diet. You could also depending on the timing of meal 4 skip the rice.

To be honest though, I don't know how ur diet adds up to just 100-135 carbs.

U have 1 cup whole oats (that's 60), rice cakes, 2 soy drinks, rice cups, not to mention indirect carbs from veggies and PB

 

[sonicwaste]

The soy milk I get actually has pretty good stats: 3.5g fat (3g poly/monounsaturated), 5g carbs, 7g protein per cup.

So as far as my carbs go:

52g in 1 cup oats
42g in 1 cup rice
12g in 2 rice cakes
6g from peanut butter
10g from soy
10g from veggies
5g from protein powder
------
Total: 125g

There was one error in the sample meals I posted, my rice serving is 1/2 cup x 2 instead of 1 cup x2.. So one cup of rice per day.

I appreciate your attention to detail. I am starting to see the holes in my diet. I could easily drop the unnecessary carbs and fat and replace them with protein.

That should make my diet pretty fool proof. It still doesn't make sense to me why I am not dropping at least a little bit of fat...

And I guess I still need to figure out what to do about my cardio.

Oh and I still need to figure out if I am eating too little calories.

 

[desmond]

OK I assumed u were having 2 cups of rice, although 2 rice cakes = 12 carbs??? They must be microscopic. Rice cakes are normally 70-80% carbs.

Ok, something is wrong - eitehr with ur calculations (which u say they are not) or ur metabolism.

Doing HIIT 6 times per week, lifting 6 times per week, u should be dropping nearly 1kg per week in the initial phases of ur diet. Also, given the glycogen depletion of this low carb diet, I would have expected 2 kilos dropped in the first week (1 being water/glycogen weight)

You could drop ur carb intake, but to be honest its already quite low, and ur still > 10% bf and in the initial phases of ur diet.

Best luck but I am as confused as u are.

 

[cobracock1979]

why HI cardio? You should be doing low intensity stuff for a longer period to burn fat...
Gotta say, the diet makros look in chech, but u gotta start calorie/ carb cycling as well. personally I would have one day a week with a cal surplus.

Good luck

 

[sonicwaste]

Maybe partially I am over-reacting in my lack of progress. It is highly possible that even with arimidex, I am still holding some extra water.

I'm going to get new bodyfat measurement tools that is the only other thing that could be skewing my results.

I started at 192lbs 12% bf. Today I am up to 197lbs 12%bf.

I'll get some new calipers and take measurements and different times during the day and see if that makes a difference. It's hard to gauge fat loss when muscle is going up and the calipers could be flawed.

I'll try some low intensity cardio for the next week and see what happens.

I'll keep you guys updated.

 

[sonicwaste]

sounds intriguing jabba. I'll send you a PM.

 

[desmond]

sounds intriguing jabba. I'll send you a PM.[/QUOTE

Nothing wrong with HIIT - most the studies support it, and there are notables who use it (Layne Norton).

Esp in initial phases of diet when bf > 10%, it shouldn't be catabolic. In any event, if something you were doing was catabloic u'd know - 1 kilo of fat is 7000 cals, 1 kilo of muscle is closer to 600 (hence why 1 kilo of chicken is about 600 cals), so if u were burning muscle, ur weight would drop very dramatically.

 

[Tatyana]

If your BMR is 2012 and you are eating 1800 kcals plus doing all that cardio, my guess is that you have thrown yourself into starvation mode.

If you are going to use the BMR, you need to multiply it by your activity levels, I think it is 1.45 for moderate, but with what you are doing, I would say intense, which I think is 1.95.

so really, you need 3923 kcals/day. To lose weight, you take off a max of 15-20%, which would make it around 3138 kcals/day.

I personally think you are eating at least 1000 kcals less than you need.

 

[ironwings]

The soy milk I get actually has pretty good stats: 3.5g fat (3g poly/monounsaturated), 5g carbs, 7g protein per cup.

So as far as my carbs go:

52g in 1 cup oats
42g in 1 cup rice
12g in 2 rice cakes
6g from peanut butter
10g from soy
10g from veggies
5g from protein powder
------
Total: 125g

There was one error in the sample meals I posted, my rice serving is 1/2 cup x 2 instead of 1 cup x2.. So one cup of rice per day.

I appreciate your attention to detail. I am starting to see the holes in my diet. I could easily drop the unnecessary carbs and fat and replace them with protein.

That should make my diet pretty fool proof. It still doesn't make sense to me why I am not dropping at least a little bit of fat...

And I guess I still need to figure out what to do about my cardio.

Oh and I still need to figure out if I am eating too little calories.

"Soy milk is essentially Coffee-Mate with laced with estrogen, and is best left to vegans and other socialist vegetarian types that can't bring themselves to eat the completely natural-for-humans flesh of our friends the Animals but who have no trouble with slaughtering trillions of our other friends the Plants and processing -- in gigantic factories run by multinational corporations with shareholders that eat meat themselves -- very selectively chosen components of their poor little bodies into gooey shit that humans have never had an opportunity to adapt to digesting. Why, eating such material, with its high levels of isoflavones, touted by gynecologists as tantamount to Estrogen Replacement Therapy (ERT), will make you grow boobs, and this will screw up the clean lines of this fine young man's Under Armor. I recommend against it."

-Mark Rippetoe

 

[sonicwaste]

Well, I shall ditch the soy. I'd be lying if I said I didn't have problems with gyno... The Soy is likely a big contributing factor.

I was afraid that I needed to eat more. It's a serious chore for me to get 1800 calories right now. Some regular meals take me 30 minutes to finish. I think The liposhred package keeps the hunger away. Maybe I will try some different thermogenics to bring back my appetite.

As far as cardio goes, I always had great results on the treadmill: 15 incline @ 3.0 mph for 20-30 minutes.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[ironwings]

LOL on the soy. I use it in my protein shakes so I can't say a word. I just thought Rippetoe's rant was funny.

The Anavar is also curbing your appetite. But, no thermo's are going to increase it. The best thing for you to do is eat smaller meals more often. It seems you may be doing that - how many calories are you taking in at once?

A few suggestions (sorry if I repeat others, I haven't read all the way through your post):

You are at 13% bodyfat so it is going to be a tad harder for you to lose. Your body wants to hold on to that fat! It doesn't mean it is impossible though. Since your diet is pretty clean a few things I would switch up to see if it works for you would be to

1. Replace the brown rice with a sweet potato or yam
2. Drop the peanut butter
3. Drop the flax oil and take a capsule instead
4. Avoid high fat dairy
5. No need for casein while you are cutting or on anavar

I don't think too few calories is your problem. It takes much longer for that to have any impact on your storage of fat. I do recommend you calculating your maintenance level and create a calorie deficit of 3500 + a week to lose 1lb. A calorie deficit is calories under your maintenance + calories burned during workouts. When I am leaning out I wear a heart rate monitor watch during every workout and keep track of calories burned. At the end of the week I know exactly what my deficit is and the scale always matches.

"Approx 1825 calories" Approximately may be the problem. Count your calories to the "T" while leaning out. I have a list of meals and restaruants that I eat during my leaning phase and I know exactly how many calories are in the food. I won't eat it if I don't know.

I will say that while I am on Anavar (particularly larger doses - for me is 20mg) I hold on to weight. And, usually gain due to muscle engorgment. It seems when I come off it is giving my body permission to burn fat - lol. I am ramping my dose down slowly to come off of it and my first week I lost 4lbs. Calorie deficit of 6900.

As for your training - you may want to try a 5x5 or 3x5 full body workout 3 days a week. The full body workouts create a higher frequency hit on each muscle group and allows you to burn more fat during one session. The other 3 days get a good 30 - 45 minute high intensity interval workout in. No treadmill at 3.0 - trust me on this one. Try rowing, stair climbing, sprints, elliptical intervals, jump rope and boxing drills etc. There is no such thing as "fat burning zone". The harder you work the more calories you burn thus the more fat you burn. The whole fat burning zone was created by shelf magazines and an industry that is trying to appeal to the masses. You will not have any muscle wasting with that dose of Anavar. Use it as an advatage to get some hard core cardio in.

Give your body enough time to recover and rest and I think you'll see a difference. Don't be discouraged after a couple weeks - it just may take your body a bit longer to respond - especially with the stress you are putting it through.

Hope you find something that will make the difference. Good luck!

 

[cobracock1979]

Hey Ironwings,

Could you explain the resons for th folloing? Im about 10% bf tryin to get to 8.

1. Replace the brown rice with a sweet potato or yam
2. Drop the peanut butter
3. Drop the flax oil and take a capsule instead
4. Avoid high fat dairy
5. No need for casein while you are cutting or on anavar

 

[ironwings]

Ah, that last 2%.

In looking at your diet when you are at this point in your journey it is the smallest things that can make a difference. For me it is simply calories in, calories out. It doesn't matter one iota what I consume - speaking of fat loss only. For others it takes small tweaks to see what works for them.

1. Replace the brown rice with a sweet potato or yam:Anytime someone is stuck the first place to start is changing your carb sources. We all know what carbs do to us and we need them, but because it takes so much to process them we can all have different reactions to consumption. Fibrous carbs are always best. You could even add beans here (my fav).
2. Drop the peanut butter: It is not a necessary nutrient so why use it when you are dieting? Lots of calories and tons of fat. Sometimes people have in their mind that it is all natural peanut butter so it is ooober healthy. Nah. Use it when bulking.
3. Drop the flax oil and take a capsule instead: Flax oil has more cals and fat than the capsules and the capsules are just as effective. Again, this is for dieting. The oil is great when bulking.
4. Avoid high fat dairy: There is no additiional nutritional value in full fat dairy over lower fat - so, use this as an opportunity to cut calories and saturated fat. Full at versions also have 5x the cholestorol. When bulking, full fat it is.
5. No need for casein while you are cutting or on anavar: Typically this in consumed at night before you go to bed to aid in suppresing protein breakdown. This is a pretty big calorie load last thing at night. Casien is a very beneficial protein but if you are trying to lose those last few % - I'd take it out. The Anavar is keeping/building muscle. You won't see a difference if you stop taking casein.

Does that make sense? You would look at your entire diet and do the same. For me in particular, latose makes me bloated. I consume it but if I needed to be photo ready - I would avoid it for days in advance. For you it might just be a slight change in your workouts that would make a difference. That last couple are tough!

 

[desmond]

Ironwings:
- not sure if I agree re some of these comments.

Sweet potatoes and yams are healthier than brown rice (more nutrients etc), but how are they less fattening. Brown rice can actually have a lower GI and does have less sugar than sweet potatoes (Glycemic Index GI Brown Rice). My preference for vegetable carbs is better nutrients and more satiety, and moreover, sweet potatoes taste good on their own, brown rice requires source etc.

As for casein protein, 30g of casein protein is 125 cals - it's hardly a huge calorie investment. If he is building muscle on Anavar, that is calories directed towards muscle growth - wouldn't this mean more calories oxidised as storage fat? Put it this way, is it worth going through the day 8 hours without eating? If not, why not consume pre-bed protein.

Flax oil and capsules are the same thing - its just the doses that differ. In any event, increasing the omega 3 fats relative to others may have slight benefits for fat oxidation. I would ditch the PB and high fat dairy before the flax - as Ironwings says its not an essential source of fats (well technically it does contain omega 6, but u get this from almost anything>

Dairy doesn't bloat everyone, and if it does, doesn't mean u aren't losing fat.

 

[ironwings]

Ironwings:
- not sure if I agree re some of these comments.

Sweet potatoes and yams are healthier than brown rice (more nutrients etc), but how are they less fattening. Brown rice can actually have a lower GI and does have less sugar than sweet potatoes (Glycemic Index GI Brown Rice). My preference for vegetable carbs is better nutrients and more satiety, and moreover, sweet potatoes taste good on their own, brown rice requires source etc. I didn't mention anything about being less fattening, if I did, god borrowed my brain for a bit. When you are down to the last few and are stuck, carbs are a great place to start substituting to see how you react.

As for casein protein, 30g of casein protein is 125 cals - it's hardly a huge calorie investment. If he is building muscle on Anavar, that is calories directed towards muscle growth - wouldn't this mean more calories oxidised as storage fat? Put it this way, is it worth going through the day 8 hours without eating? If not, why not consume pre-bed protein. Yes, but my guess is that a shake is being made. And, 125 calories a day is a lot when you are trying to lose the last few %. Just that cut alone on a daily basis is 875 cals a week, particularly when it isn't necessary for a short period of time. Just a suggestion, this guy is stuck. It doesn't matter if it is before bed or in the middle of the day (hopefully before bed if casien) it is a place to cut.

Flax oil and capsules are the same thing - its just the doses that differ. In any event, increasing the omega 3 fats relative to others may have slight benefits for fat oxidation. I would ditch the PB and high fat dairy before the flax - as Ironwings says its not an essential source of fats (well technically it does contain omega 6, but u get this from almost anything> I find that when people use flax oil, they use too much. Much easier to control your source from a capsule. As for the pb - for the fat and calories, the omega 6 isn't worth it. Not for the couple months it will take to lose the last bit.

Dairy doesn't bloat everyone, and if it does, doesn't mean u aren't losing fat. LOL - certainly.

We are talking about the last little bit of fat loss. Calorie deficit is key. It is essential to look at your diet and see where you can get the biggest bang for the buck. If your body no longer responds to what you are doing - change it. Routine is an enemy.

Best of luck...I'm in calorie deficit too and doing really well. 4lbs the first week and so far I'm on track for 2lbs a week.

 

[timtim]

We are talking about the last little bit of fat loss. Calorie deficit is key. It is essential to look at your diet and see where you can get the biggest bang for the buck. If your body no longer responds to what you are doing - change it. Routine is an enemy.

Best of luck...I'm in calorie deficit too and doing really well. 4lbs the first week and so far I'm on track for 2lbs a week.

if hes at 13% bf, hes not in the last little bit of fat. 9% and lower, you are getting to the stingy fat. right now, hes average for a male.

 

[desmond]

if hes at 13% bf, hes not in the last little bit of fat. 9% and lower, you are getting to the stingy fat. right now, hes average for a male.

x2. + he's on the initial phases of a diet

 

[cobracock1979]

Thanks Des+Ironwing,

Yeah I can see what you mean. I tend to rotate my carb sources between yams/ brown rice/ oats. generally I add fibrous veg.

I am on a 600 cal defecit anyway, I dont want to cut cals any further than that for the time being so some of the alterations suggested would not be necessary at this point.

I shoot for about 60g fat a day, abot 30g from NPB. maybe Ill sub some of this for fish oils.

Im on cycle but still hate the thought of not consuming protein before bed so that will stay. However I do add olive oil to my casien before bed - do fats before sleep have a negative effect on fat burnig?

Finally, what macros do you recommend for fatburning, Im currently on a low carb diet with a (refeed & cal surplus) every 4 days to fire my metabolism.

 

[ironwings]

x2. + he's on the initial phases of a diet

LOL, you guys are fiesty. I'll leave you be. I'd like to know his secret to be at 13% without any dieting. Which is considered lean for a male by the way. Not average.

 

[cobracock1979]

Iron wings!

what are your thoughts on fats (EFA's) before bed whils cutting?? I use em (olive oil generally, sometime NPB) to slow the digestion process of my casien.

Your AV looks awesome so ur opinion is valued round her. Whats ur BF??

 

[ironwings]

I think it is a great idea, as long as you are in your caloric limits and macro ratios. I personally don't eat anything before bed, but that is because I need the energy (calories) during the day for what I do and just don't have the calories left to spare. If you are looking to cut additional calories, these are the ones I cut first.

My Avi was taken about a month ago in the midst of my loading cycle. I was packing on the muscle and was at 19% bodyfat, 135lbs. I'm cutting now for some photo's/videos in May. 1 1/2 weeks in and down 5lbs. I'll measure my bodyfat in two more weeks and I'll be cutting for 12 weeks total. I should be around 115lbs, 15% bodyfat when I'm done. For me it is as simple as calories in/calories out. I create a deficit using both and it works. I don't get caught up in diets. There is still so much to be learned about nutrition and how our bodies respond to it. Best case is to go with evidence-based models and not "authority". Everyone claims to be authoritive and correct in their theories. Kind of like religion. Any diet you follow will work if you stick to it, it really is just a structure for reducing your calories. Pick one that works well with your body and stick with it.

 

[Bridger]

This wasn't a hot point of discussion but very important. Regular sleep.

The OP said he had upped his sleep from 4-6 hours to 8-9. That is good. Stay consistent with your sleep patterns it will help in many ways. The body just doesn't work the way it should when you are lacking sleep, metabolism is one thing that gets messed up.

 

[desmond]

Ironwings: I don't think we disagree much then on pre-bed protein. Both of us believe cals in v cals out is the main determinant, except u would prioritize eating throughout the day, whereas I would redirect 150-200 cals cutting to a prebed shake

Cobra: casein has a 7 hour digestion period anyway? Are there many - ANY - studies showing fat added on to a shake really does that much for digestion?

Not enough for me to warrant doing it.

Is adding a fat to a source (eg adding oil to tuna) going to do the same to a food that already has fat in it (whole eggs)? I'm skeptical to say the least, but the point is this is not a strongly researched issue. If casein alone takes 7 hours to digest, well that's probably long enough.

taking EVOO pre bed or some other oil will to some extent reduce nocturnal fat burning simply because its energy that needs to be oxidised. But it will be cals out v cals in 24/7 which determines overall weight changes.

 

[dabuffguy]

Ironwings: I don't think we disagree much then on pre-bed protein. Both of us believe cals in v cals out is the main determinant, except u would prioritize eating throughout the day, whereas I would redirect 150-200 cals cutting to a prebed shake

Cobra: casein has a 7 hour digestion period anyway? Are there many - ANY - studies showing fat added on to a shake really does that much for digestion?

Not enough for me to warrant doing it.

Is adding a fat to a source (eg adding oil to tuna) going to do the same to a food that already has fat in it (whole eggs)? I'm skeptical to say the least, but the point is this is not a strongly researched issue. If casein alone takes 7 hours to digest, well that's probably long enough.

taking EVOO pre bed or some other oil will to some extent reduce nocturnal fat burning simply because its energy that needs to be oxidised. But it will be cals out v cals in 24/7 which determines overall weight changes.

Some people highly suggest taking fats with carbs during cutting to slow digestion rates and keep insulin lower. I couldn't explain the fine details of it, but it seems to be a fairly well accepted notion. I'm sure there are some legit studies done that prove this. Just need to look them up.

 

[desmond]

Some people highly suggest taking fats with carbs during cutting to slow digestion rates and keep insulin lower. I couldn't explain the fine details of it, but it seems to be a fairly well accepted notion. I'm sure there are some legit studies done that prove this. Just need to look them up.

Yes I have read this too, but there is a difference.

Carbs are digested almost immediately; casein is 7 hours?

Do fats take longer than 7 hours? Can they slow something as slow releasing as casein.

There are no studies on this point and it is IMO quite different. I mean for one - if u add 10g of fat to ur shake, does the fat itself take longer than 7 hours to digest????

 

[dabuffguy]

Yes I have read this too, but there is a difference.

Carbs are digested almost immediately; casein is 7 hours?

Do fats take longer than 7 hours? Can they slow something as slow releasing as casein.

There are no studies on this point and it is IMO quite different. I mean for one - if u add 10g of fat to ur shake, does the fat itself take longer than 7 hours to digest????

Hmmm, I see.

Also, casein has as much as a 8-12 hour digestion from some places I have read. All the "12 hour" proteins go off of that.


Good question. That's something to investigate.

 

[iron_matt-CB]

If your BMR is 2012 and you are eating 1800 kcals plus doing all that cardio, my guess is that you have thrown yourself into starvation mode.

If you are going to use the BMR, you need to multiply it by your activity levels, I think it is 1.45 for moderate, but with what you are doing, I would say intense, which I think is 1.95.

so really, you need 3923 kcals/day. To lose weight, you take off a max of 15-20%, which would make it around 3138 kcals/day.

I personally think you are eating at least 1000 kcals less than you need.

this advice is spot on...you bmr is what you body needs for just basic functions. you need to add in you activites and that means extra cals.. you seem way underfed, which in return will lead to fat retention "starvation mode"

 

[cobracock1979]

Des,

I know what you are sayin but when I was looking at casien a while back I was seeing drastically different digestion times stated - from 4 hours to 12 hours. 7 hours seems to be a happy medium but IMO its more like 5. I would be interested in seeing stuidies on digestion times purely for straight casien, if you have any? Even if it was 7 hours, that would still leave me with a certain amount of time negative.

WRT adding fats - many bro's do it (southernlord may be able to shed some light) but I think its generally accepted that adding fats to CHO's or proteins generally slows digestion, as fat is harder to break down. Thats my understanding

 

[cobracock1979]

here we go - looks like milk proteins are g2g for about 8 hours.

Still, Ill keep addind olive oil to my bedtime shakes for the efa's and to meet my fat makros.

Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement -- Lacroix et al. 84 (5): 1070 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

 

[desmond]

here we go - looks like milk proteins are g2g for about 8 hours.

Still, Ill keep addind olive oil to my bedtime shakes for the efa's and to meet my fat makros.

Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement -- Lacroix et al. 84 (5): 1070 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

yes, if no probs with adding olive to bed for fat macros. It's not really a source of EFA's though - mainly monounsaturated fat, while good, isn't an EFA. Contains some omega 6 I guess.

U'd consider dropping the EVOO pre-bed if cutting, simply b/c u may want to enjoy eating that fat some other time

 

[Lean and Mean]

Desmond -

A couple pages back you said whole grain rice cakes are not a good source of carbs? Why do you say that? Are you talking about just the type he was eating or rice cakes in general?

I eat the unsalted brown rice rice cakes from whole foods right now.

Thanks

 

[sonicwaste]

LOL, you guys are fiesty. I'll leave you be. I'd like to know his secret to be at 13% without any dieting. Which is considered lean for a male by the way. Not average.

I had already been dieting. I am in the initial phases of the "serious diet/cutting cycle". I've been dieting/training hard for the past year or so.

I've never had this much trouble in the past. At 21 yrs old, I was 195lbs @ 8%bf. I could maintain 12% by eating clean and working out. I could get to 10% fairly quickly with pretty much same diet as I posted. Then to get to 8% it was a challenge, it took keto diet for me to get down to 8%. I never got any better than that.

I started going on the road non-stop with my band, so eating clean and exercise was pretty much non existent. I let my health and fitness go the first couple of years on the road.

I finally got back to eating healthy and training hard over the past year to year and a half. I dropped about 15lbs.

Now that I am off the road for a while, I am taking this as a chance to really get back in great shape again. I probably expected my body to go back to the way it used to be with normal dieting effort, but that just isn't the case.

I've got plenty of time and resources to get back in to shape, so I will do whatever I have to do.

All the advice/suggestions has been a great help.

 

[sonicwaste]

Also, here is an update. I upped the arimidex dosage a little bit over the past 4-5 days and I can definitely see a difference. I'm definitely not holding as much water as before.

After making some of the changes: Dropping the soy milk, dropping the flax oil, dropping the rice cakes and pb, and upping my calories and protein... I can definitely see a difference starting to kick in. I am up to 200lbs, but I am starting to look much leaner. I'll take a new bodyfat measurement once I get my new tools.

I'll keep updating the progress. I'll probably have some more challenges in my road back to 8%.

 

[desmond]

Desmond -

A couple pages back you said whole grain rice cakes are not a good source of carbs? Why do you say that? Are you talking about just the type he was eating or rice cakes in general?

I eat the unsalted brown rice rice cakes from whole foods right now.

Thanks

The OP is having difficulties losing weight.

Rice cakes are processed; generally this implies lower satiety and more rapid carb digestion than unprocessed brown rice.

This may mean a greater insulin spike which in some people MAY reduce fat loss.

I just suggested it for a possible area of improvement.

For many people, cals in < cals out with sufficient protein to prevent muscle loss will suffice in a diet, but if its not working, this is one possible area of improvement

 

[ironwings]

Also, here is an update. I upped the arimidex dosage a little bit over the past 4-5 days and I can definitely see a difference. I'm definitely not holding as much water as before.

After making some of the changes: Dropping the soy milk, dropping the flax oil, dropping the rice cakes and pb, and upping my calories and protein... I can definitely see a difference starting to kick in. I am up to 200lbs, but I am starting to look much leaner. I'll take a new bodyfat measurement once I get my new tools.

I'll keep updating the progress. I'll probably have some more challenges in my road back to 8%.

Congrats!