Hello Pro-Choice!!

[atlantabiolab]

I am for abortion till age 40, and for euthanasia from age 40.

The thinking of a true Communist.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Don't bring Jesus into this. This post has remained Curling-free and should stay that way.

come on now matt. no curling cheap shots, and if they are to start now, include me in them.


thanks.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

I hope you find yourself a nice passive little wifey that likes to be told what and how to do it.

velfeet you can tell me what to do !!!

 

[justyxxxx]

I don't know enough about late term abortions to comment on them, but from where I stand, abortion is OK in my book. The way that I see it is that it's much safer than a girl getting pregnant and sticking a clothes hanger up her to get rid of the baby herself.

Some of you guys take risks . . . you stick animal drugs in your bodies not truly knowing what's in them. Not that I'm saying that I wouldn't or won't, but if steroids were LEGAL like abortion, then people wouldn't have to resort to such measures. They might still, but personally I would go for the safer route.

But then again, abortion does involve another life . . . and I can't say that abortion is necessarily right when I look at it from that perspective, but I can say that I want to keep it as an option . . .

I'm finished rambling. I'm looking back thinking - did I just compare steroids to abortion? Hmmm . . . this vodka is good stuff!

 

[velvett]

Are you now talking about "immaculate conception"? A choice is made every time a child is created. In some instances a child is desired, in some it is not but still accepted. In the cases of abortion, the choice was made to deny the consequences of the actions and then cry victim when confronted with the consequence of their choice.

I want to strangle you sometimes.

Yes, a choice is made everytime someone chooses to have sex - unprotected sex is usually (although not always) a route to potential unwanted pregnancy. Which by the way IS what I was getting at in my comment. Wear a condom, save a fetus.

For the record - I would be surprised if many women would cry "victim" after aborting a fetus. (I didn't say men because I not even going speculate what goes through the male mind.)

A sigh of relief would be the popular first thought and perhaps a later feeling of "what if".



Perhaps men should stop trying to make assumptions as to what women think, feel or how women choose to behave.


And for you political hounds.

You should be happy that for every aborted child with parents that have no health care - you the taxpaper won't have to pay for the term of their pregnancy and for the delivery.

 

[Robert Jan]

post natal abortion

 

[Longhorn85]

It did not take long.



Democracy is a wonderful thing.

Yes, US Democracy is a wonderful thing. The model for the world. This expected appeal however, will be handily rejected.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Yes, a choice is made everytime someone chooses to have sex

Choice--->consequences. It's gender neutral. We are all the beneficiaries of someone's decision not to abort us. How can anyone of either gender argue FOR a procedure which, if done on them, would have resulted in their non-existence?

You should be happy that for every aborted child with parents that have no health care - you the taxpaper won't have to pay

This is nonsense. If taxpayer savings were the goal of legislation, the first law paassed would be the immediate machine gunningof all persons over 65. We spend almost half of the federal budget on them annually. Think of the savings if we killed them off.






[/B][/QUOTE]

 

[velvett]

Matt,

You just like to argue so you can sIt back and re-read what you have just wrote.


You have no idea what it is to be a woman and I doubt you will ever get over yourself to realise that your point of view is not the only possible and acceptable point of view.

When it comes to the choice or consequence of sex - I'm sorry it is NOT gender neutral.

There is no equality between a woman carrying a child for nine months and a man that supplied the sperm. We like to think so or hope so from an emotional standpoint but physically and socially there just is not a common comparison.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Matt,

You just like to argue so you can sIt back and re-read what you have just wrote.

Yes, I call it death by logic. I suppose your posts could be called "life by emotion".

You have no idea what it is to be a woman and I doubt you will ever get over yourself to realise that your point of view is not the only possible and acceptable point of view.

If we are discussing legislation, and public policy, none of this "how it feels" crappo matters at all. Appeals to emotion just make you sound whiny. Never thought you a whiner, but I guess I never knew what questions to ask.

When it comes to the choice or consequence of sex - I'm sorry it is NOT gender neutral.

There is no equality between a woman carrying a child for nine months and a man that supplied the sperm. We like to think so or hope so from an emotional standpoint but physically and socially there just is not a common comparison.

Your appeals to amorphous social perspecitves are complete non-starters.

 

[PolishHammer1977]

Matt -vs-Velvett

You guys should have light sabers

 

[atlantabiolab]

I want to strangle you sometimes.

But you get all squishy feeling when I post on love and relationships.

[/quote]And for you political hounds.

You should be happy that for every aborted child with parents that have no health care - you the taxpaper won't have to pay for the term of their pregnancy and for the delivery.
[/QUOTE]

You can do better than this. You know that I care not how many other wrongs occur in the world when discussing issues. Two wrongs don't make a right. It is either right or wrong. This is how man advances; not by stalemate.

 

[atlantabiolab]

You have no idea what it is to be a woman and I doubt you will ever get over yourself to realise that your point of view is not the only possible and acceptable point of view.

When it comes to the choice or consequence of sex - I'm sorry it is NOT gender neutral.

There is no equality between a woman carrying a child for nine months and a man that supplied the sperm. We like to think so or hope so from an emotional standpoint but physically and socially there just is not a common comparison.

Action IS gender neutral, it is volition, which is inherent in all humans. I will never know what it is like to be Bill Gates, but it matters not when dealing with human action, we are bound by the same rules. He may have the money to bend them to his benefit, but it is still manipulating a principle.

As for the gender differences, wouldn't you agree that BECAUSE a woman has more responsibility, in terms of pregnancy, that she should take more precautions? If the man is not responsible, then the woman must prioritize the value of the act of sex vs. the risk of pregnancy.

Does abortion promote good responsibility or remove a need for precaution? Many may believe that women who have this procedure are emotionally scarred for life and become very responsible, this is not always the case. Tell young girls that there is nothing wrong with this action, that it is not a life, that it is nothing more than a ball of tissues, then by what rationale are we to suppose that they will "feel" as if they are doing something "wrong"? By what reasoning are we to suppose that they will wisen up about sexual conduct? The cost of the procedure will be their only obstacle, not wisdom, for they have done nothing wrong.

Studies have shown that a significant number of women who have had abortions have had more than one. From personal experience, I know this to be the case.

 

[velvett]

Action IS gender neutral, it is volition, which is inherent in all humans. I will never know what it is like to be Bill Gates, but it matters not when dealing with human action, we are bound by the same rules. He may have the money to bend them to his benefit, but it is still manipulating a principle.

As for the gender differences, wouldn't you agree that BECAUSE a woman has more responsibility, in terms of pregnancy, that she should take more precautions? If the man is not responsible, then the woman must prioritize the value of the act of sex vs. the risk of pregnancy.

Does abortion promote good responsibility or remove a need for precaution? Many may believe that women who have this procedure are emotionally scarred for life and become very responsible, this is not always the case. Tell young girls that there is nothing wrong with this action, that it is not a life, that it is nothing more than a ball of tissues, then by what rationale are we to suppose that they will "feel" as if they are doing something "wrong"? By what reasoning are we to suppose that they will wisen up about sexual conduct? The cost of the procedure will be their only obstacle, not wisdom, for they have done nothing wrong.

Studies have shown that a significant number of women who have had abortions have had more than one. From personal experience, I know this to be the case.

My opinion which it has always been is that people need to have sex responsibly and yes face consequence if there should come to be an unplanned pregnancy.

In most cases a condom could have prevented such a situation. In some cases even a condom could not prevent a pregnancy - and that is a risk every time you choose to have sex.

The action of having sex IS gender neutral the responsibility of carry and birthing a child is not.

Yes, absolutely the woman - a smart woman - would make it her responsibility to go out of her way to prevent pregnancy when in the situation of not wanting a child. You are the one that will carry the child to term and God willing deliver the child. A mans role is only to provide sperm and if the case should be provide parenting.

Should a man be consulted if a woman finds herself pregnant?

Yes, it would be the respectable and decent thing to do as the child is a part of him and would not have had life without him.

Ultimately though it's the woman's body that carries the child to term and without the woman's body there would be no child - there would be only a fertilized egg.

It is the woman's choice as to whether the child will make it to term and see life as it was the woman's choice to have sex with a man in the first place.

I don't buy into the concept that by eliminating abortion we will create a more responsible sexually active person. Why? When we were hit with AIDS did abortion rates drop? By your theory they should - surely death is worse fate than bearing a child that you hadn't planned for, no?

I find multiple abortions – unforgivable. A mistake, a chance or a poorly made decision should happen but once not multiple times. There is no excuse for using abortion as contraception; there are so many available forms of contraception out there that there really is no excuse for not using it. (Even though no one form is 100% full proof)

I understand that men get a bad rap and I understand that many men have been robbed out of their chance of being a father and I realize that the father is as important member of a child’s family. However, it is not the man that will be judged as a single mother, a young mother or a mother of more than one man’s child. When a single mother has an illegitimate child in tow – even now in a modern world people will judge her and look down upon her, while the man could be living his life without any visual presence of his past choices.

What about those who choose to have a child from an unplanned pregnancy and their life is full and happy and it’s something that they would have never thought differently about. These are the most special of children, they made their way unexpectedly and there is little doubt that they don’t spread happiness. However, even though they were unplanned they became wanted and the transformation from unplanned pregnancy to desired child does not always occur. Whether the reason is finance, emotional or physiological it is still an unwanted child and there is nothing worse than a child being punished for having been given life.

 

[velvett]

Yes, I call it death by logic. I suppose your posts could be called "life by emotion".
.

I make no apology for being passionate, it is who I am and I will never be inspired by anyone's political standpoint which is what you choose to make this into.


What you fail to realize - is that while you are intelligent and respectable you do tend talk (type) down to people which makes you come across as condescending bastard.

Which is a shame.

 

[The Ranger]

And mine are fun by invention...<wink>

Ranger

 

[velvett]

But you get all squishy feeling when I post on love and relationships.

I'm not sure I know what you mean - please provide examples.


I believe this (abortion) is one of the few topics we don't see eye to eye on which doesn't mean I respect you any less.

 

[velvett]

And mine are fun by invention...<wink>

Ranger

What's fun?

 

[The Ranger]

It's sump'in ya just gotta experience Buttercup...If I told ya, there'd be no fun in that...<evil grin>

Ranger

 

[Tiervexx]

There is no equality between a woman carrying a child for nine months and a man that supplied the sperm. We like to think so or hope so from an emotional standpoint but physically and socially there just is not a common comparison.

Good post

This point is so obvious I am always amazed when people try to argue against it. It is like trying to tell you your wrong for saying the sun is brighter than a candle; there is no comparison.

 

[The Ranger]

One thing I have learned....Never talk to a woman about weight, age, or ABORTION.

Ranger

 

[Synpax]

It did not take long.

NY judge rejects US abortion ban



Democracy is a wonderful thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3248943.stm

Democracy? How does a crazy unelected judge overruling an elected national legeslature make this democracy? For it or against it, it's hardly democratic.

Of course, the Supreme Court is going to slap this judge down and let the law stand because the judge's findings of fact are unfactual:

Partial Birth Abortion is never medically necessary. Ever.

 

[biteme]

If I get a woman pregant, she is carrying my child and hers. Fair or not, since she is the one carrying the child, the decision ultimately rests with the woman. I may object vehemently, do everything in my power and legally to try and stop her, but ultimately the decision rests with the woman. IMO

 

[atlantabiolab]

I don't buy into the concept that by eliminating abortion we will create a more responsible sexually active person. Why? When we were hit with AIDS did abortion rates drop? By your theory they should - surely death is worse fate than bearing a child that you hadn't planned for, no?

Your example actually supports my assertion. AIDS did alter the sexual practices of people, not heterosexuals, but those most at risk, gay males. HIV would not affect abortion rates, since, in the US, only a small percentage of HIV cases were from heterosexual transmission, so there was no "risk" placed on men and women from this disease. People alter their practices when it DIRECTLY affects them.

On a side note, I have read that the rate of homosexual men returning to unsafe sexual practices is increasing, speculated to be caused by the advancement in HIV treatments, which can suppress viral load. Remove the threat and back to "things as usual".

Whether the reason is finance, emotional or physiological it is still an unwanted child and there is nothing worse than a child being punished for having been given life.

So we punish them, by death, for the irresponsibility of mom and dad. This idea that because a child was unwanted, unplanned, etc. then they will automatically be tortured and victimized to no end, doesn't hold much weight. This is simply worst case scenarios being used as the only possible choice in such cases. Not to mention, if this is true, then abortion legalization has been a colossal failure. With abortion being so readily available, what excuse can we have for all of the unwanted and abused kids in the US?

Where is the logic of this world, when the very groups that advocate abortion on demand, to terminate the existence of individuals who have done nothing wrong, save exist, also scream to spare the lives of convicted murderers?

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I make no apology for being passionate, it is who I am and I will never be inspired by anyone's political standpoint which is what you choose to make this into.


What you fail to realize - is that while you are intelligent and respectable you do tend talk (type) down to people which makes you come across as condescending bastard.

Which is a shame.

Since it was a judical ruling, a context of political viability seemed appropriate.

There hasn't been even a shred of logic in any of your posts, just emotional mumbo jumbo. "Passionate"? Is that a rationalization mechanism for "illogical"?

There has been lots of name calling though, mostly from you. Yet I am condescending?! Wow. I guess there really is no limit to what people will do to justify their perspective.

Abort this!

 

[Tiervexx]

Since it was a judical ruling, a context of political viability seemed appropriate.

There hasn't been even a shred of logic in any of your posts, just emotional mumbo jumbo. "Passionate"? Is that a rationalization mechanism for "illogical"?

There has been lots of name calling though, mostly from you. Yet I am condescending?! Wow. I guess there really is no limit to what people will do to justify their perspective.

Abort this!

If your argument is so logical then please tell us how you can support the idea that a man’s role of donating sperm is as anywhere near as difficult as carrying a child for 9 months?

You can not compare the roles of men and women in creating a child which is why women are the only ones that have a right to make a decision on the issue. Saying child birth is gender neutral is like someone telling you that they deserve half your pay check because they told you about the job interview.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

If your argument is so logical then please tell us how you can support the idea that a man’s role of donating sperm is as anywhere near as difficult as carrying a child for 9 months?

You can not compare the roles of men and women in creating a child which is why women are the only ones that have a right to make a decision on the issue. Saying child birth is gender neutral is like someone telling you that they deserve half your pay check because they told you about the job interview.

My point throughout this whole thing, which no one has refuted, is that any one of us, if we were on the receiving end of abortion, would not be here. We are all here because someone did not do that to us. These statements are true.

The man/woman thing is a non-starter/distraction to the greater issue.

How any of us can argue for a practice that would result in our own non-existence is the height of illogic.

 

[Tiervexx]

My point throughout this whole thing, which no one has refuted, is that any one of us, if we were on the receiving end of abortion, would not be here. We are all here because someone did not do that to us. These statements are true.

The man/woman thing is a non-starter/distraction to the greater issue.

How any of us can argue for a practice that would result in our own non-existence is the height of illogic.

I was not aborted because I was a planed pregnancy that my parents where more than prepared to raise. Many babies that where aborted would find themselves in very different circumstance if they where not…

I’m not all that interested in getting into this debate right now. I just wanted to point out that you can’t say this is gender neutral.

 

[CANDICE]

This is absolutely not gender neutral. Government and society has been so liberal telling people that they do not have to be held responsible for their actions........example, you become pregnant you can suck it out early (no parental consent) or whenever you get around to it (often it is paid for by federal aid) or you can jump on welfare while getting paid for goiing to school, job training or anything else that could entice the lazy oerson to start working and become self sufficient.
If we held people accountable for their actions maybe people might think twice before behaving irresponsibly and having the tax payers pick up the pieces.
Any way you cut it I beleive abortion is extremely sad and needs ti be controlled. It's inconvenient therefore, it can be discarded like a piece of garbage. Ever go to an abortion clinic? They call out numbers like your at a deli, they will not show you the fetus on the monitor (where you can see the heartbeat) and God forbid might change your mind..........they don't counsel you about options, they tell you an abotion is no big deal and the right thing to do. What do they call themselves? "Planned Parenthood" of all things.

 

[Longhorn85]

There is no equality between a woman carrying a child for nine months and a man that supplied the sperm.

I hear this argument a lot and I disagree. If you believe this, the man should not be at all responsible for any child support. If he is liable for child support, then you are acknowledging that he has a stake in the matter, therefore no abortion should be performed without his consent.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

I also don't think it is the woman's decision alone because there is a third party who has a stake in the matter...the unborn kid, and the stakes are high--life.

 

[velvett]

I hear this argument a lot and I disagree. If you believe this, the man should not be at all responsible for any child support. If he is liable for child support, then you are acknowledging that he has a stake in the matter, therefore no abortion should be performed without his consent.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

I also don't think it is the woman's decision alone because there is a third party who has a stake in the matter...the unborn kid, and the stakes are high--life.

If I personally were to make a choice that the "father" did not agree with I would not expect anything from him. Bullshit you say to yourself - for me no - never needed a man before wouldn't want him around for a child he didn't want.

The unborn child has no say - the egg being fertilized has nothing to do with the unborn child - pregnancy is by chance and making it to term to be delivered is chance.

Planned and unplanned pregnancy are a matter of chance the only factor that is constant is the use of contreception.

 

[velvett]

My point throughout this whole thing, which no one has refuted, is that any one of us, if we were on the receiving end of abortion, would not be here. We are all here because someone did not do that to us. These statements are true.

The man/woman thing is a non-starter/distraction to the greater issue.

How any of us can argue for a practice that would result in our own non-existence is the height of illogic.

You could have also been delivered still born or died before leaving the hospitial and you know what you wouldn't be here.

Our being here period was soley by chance.

 

[velvett]

Since it was a judical ruling, a context of political viability seemed appropriate.

There hasn't been even a shred of logic in any of your posts, just emotional mumbo jumbo. "Passionate"? Is that a rationalization mechanism for "illogical"?

There has been lots of name calling though, mostly from you. Yet I am condescending?! Wow. I guess there really is no limit to what people will do to justify their perspective.

Abort this!

Hello!

Partial birth abortion has NOTHING to do with abortion done during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy.

I doubt anyone would disagree with my statement of your feeling that your statements are the only one sworth hearing, reading and accepting.


If someone doesn't agree with your point of view you treat them like they are imbeciles.

Would you like my to support my statement with examples?


The difference between you and me is that I'm telling you how you act sometimes you displaying a patronizingly superior attitude to people that don't agree with your every word.

 

[velvett]

Your example actually supports my assertion. AIDS did alter the sexual practices of people, not heterosexuals, but those most at risk, gay males.

Not hetrosexuals?! At last check it would be the hetosexuals that create the most babies, no? And if those most at risk have not continued their safe sex practice why would the hetros practice safe sex?

With abortion being so readily available, what excuse can we have for all of the unwanted and abused kids in the US?

Just proves that the Pro-Lifes aren't better parents then the so called murders.

Where is the logic of this world, when the very groups that advocate abortion on demand, to terminate the existence of individuals who have done nothing wrong, save exist, also scream to spare the lives of convicted murderers?

An unborn fetus has no say - never have never will. Unborn fetus is lucky to make it through gestation and birth.

What would you say about the cultures that used to drown female babies when the male babies were the only desired offspring?

Are they murders? Or was it just a culturally exceptable practice?


Lets step away from pregnancy for a moment.

Lets talk STD's - they are controlable for the most part and if someone contracts a STD they can go to the doctor for help. Is that no the same mentality of someone that gets pregnant by accident and goes to the doctor to fix their problem?

Should we stop treating STD's so people will start to learn to take responsiblity in having safe sex?

Also, has anyone noticed that is mostly MALES that have the strongest most vocal opinion about abortion? Why is this?

Why should someone without a uterus has so much to say about it?

 

[atlantabiolab]

Not hetrosexuals?! At last check it would be the hetosexuals that create the most babies, no? And if those most at risk have not continued their safe sex practice why would the hetros practice safe sex?

You missed my point. Your example did show that action is altered based on risk, as shown by the drop in AIDS cases in the gay male population. Change the risk of pregnancy to that of full term gestation (no abortion on demand) and watch the actions of people change. No questions about it, it would happen. Would it prevent all from being irresponsible? Of course not, but we are not expecting perfection, simply greater responsibility.

I know many women who have full sexual lives, with no children, because they are responsible. Because they do not wish to have children, they do what is necessary to prevent this event.

Just proves that the Pro-Lifes aren't better parents then the so called murders.

Nice try, but I can guarantee that a large portion of shitty parents are not ardent Pro-Lifers, more than likely they have no qualms about abortion. Simply because a person does not have an abortion, does not equate to pro-life advocates.

An unborn fetus has no say - never have never will. Unborn fetus is lucky to make it through gestation and birth.

Neither does a day old infant, or a week old baby, a month, one year. Not a reason for killing it.

Your argument of "autonomy" allows for the termination of many born individuals.

What would you say about the cultures that used to drown female babies when the male babies were the only desired offspring?

Are they murders? Or was it just a culturally exceptable practice?

They are murderers. I am not a mush-brained cultural relativist. If it is murder here in the US, why would it be different in another country? The principles of morality don't change, man's understanding of them do. Cultures which fail to discover them are doomed to animal status and their failure can be witnessed.

Lets step away from pregnancy for a moment.

Lets talk STD's - they are controlable for the most part and if someone contracts a STD they can go to the doctor for help. Is that no the same mentality of someone that gets pregnant by accident and goes to the doctor to fix their problem?

Should we stop treating STD's so people will start to learn to take responsiblity in having safe sex?

No, government's responsibility is not to protect you from yourself, it is to protect your rights from the infringement of others and vice versa. In the case of abortion, the idea is the infringement on the rights of the fetus, the new entity. The case of abortion is the mother demanding her right to not be inconvenienced with a child, after rejecting responsibility, vs. that of the right to life of the fetus.

In the case of STD's, the infection with, and treatment of the disease does not infringe upon the rights of any one else. So there is no party to protect. The reduction in irresponsibility is a secondary benefit in my argument, the primary one is that of the right to life, from which all other rights derive. I cannot argue that I have any rights, if I don't even have a right to exist.

Also, has anyone noticed that is mostly MALES that have the strongest most vocal opinion about abortion? Why is this?

Why should someone without a uterus has so much to say about it?

Very simple. Why do the elderly vocalize so much about Prescription Drug Plans and Social Security? Why do minorities demand Affirmative Action and reparations?

Groups will fight to protect and advance any program which benefits them directly. Because a group advocates a policy, tells nothing of the validity and morality of the policy. Because whites advocated slavery, did not mean that it was "good", only beneficial to the group. Thus, females will be the most favorable to abortion, since it benefits them directly.

 

[Dial_tone]

I wonder what correlation, if any, there is between children who were in foster homes and criminals.
(I'm sure atlantabiolab has an answer to this).

 

[curling]

I see the beginning of the end for abortion. If it is a womans body and she can do with it as she pleases, then why can't men do the same? Or anyone? I mean, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, suicide, etc?

I mean really, why hasn't someone figured this out already and used it to legalize drugs, or assisted suicide etc?

I am against abortion which I see as murder in the first degree, pre-meditated and anti-human.

But that is me.

Awesome post. I wonder if people that are pro abortion ever think that if their mother was iresponsible like they think is ok their asses wouldn't ever be here.

 

[Dial_tone]

Awesome post. I wonder if people that are pro abortion ever think that if their mother was iresponsible like they think is ok their asses wouldn't ever be here.

If you'd actually read the thread you'd see we have. Matt & I covered this one.
I wouldn't be here but I wouldn't be here to care either.

This issue will never solved because the two sides aren't just looking at different sides of a coin, they're looking at entirely differently coins. You're arguing it's murder. We're arguing it's her choice. I don't care whether you think it's murder and you don't care whether I think it's her choice.

 

[atlantabiolab]

I wonder what correlation, if any, there is between children who were in foster homes and criminals.
(I'm sure atlantabiolab has an answer to this).

Probably similar to the correlation between being black and criminality.

 

[Dial_tone]

Exactly, so if black people have more abortions we can decrease welfare payments AND crime will go down.

 

[velvett]

Groups will fight to protect and advance any program which benefits them directly. Because a group advocates a policy, tells nothing of the validity and morality of the policy. Because whites advocated slavery, did not mean that it was "good", only beneficial to the group. Thus, females will be the most favorable to abortion, since it benefits them directly.

So what then exactly are you standing up for as it pertains to the end of the male involvement in fertilizing an egg.

Why - in simple terms - non logical but raw emotional as Matt likes refer to, are you apposed to abortion?

You have yet to answer this and since you admit that abortion has everything to do with a woman why should a man care what should choose to do? Is that not equally as selfish as the woman desires?

Is it the need to see all their sperm become a mini me, is it to control women, what is it exactly that men have to gain by eliminating abortion which as you said benefits the woman.

Do all abortions not at all benefit the man?

Do women purposely have abortions to punish the man?

Is that to say not a single abortion happened because it was a convenient option to a MAN as well as women?

 

[curling]

If you'd actually read the thread you'd see we have. Matt & I covered this one.
I wouldn't be here but I wouldn't be here to care either.

Well if you feel that way let some so called doctor rip you up with forceps now.

 

[Longhorn85]

If I personally were to make a choice that the "father" did not agree with I would not expect anything from him. Bullshit you say to yourself - for me no - never needed a man before wouldn't want him around for a child he didn't want.

The unborn child has no say - the egg being fertilized has nothing to do with the unborn child - pregnancy is by chance and making it to term to be delivered is chance.

Planned and unplanned pregnancy are a matter of chance the only factor that is constant is the use of contreception.

How sad it would be to have a child that is thought of as a mere chance. Women and the courts demand child support from men or declare them to be deadbeat dads, yet they have no say in the life of the child? How would you notify the man? "Honey, I thought about killing this baby but I've decided to let it live, now pay up!" WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

 

[velvett]

How sad it would be to have a child that is thought of as a mere chance. Women and the courts demand child support from men or declare them to be deadbeat dads, yet they have no say in the life of the child? How would you notify the man? "Honey, I thought about killing this baby but I've decided to let it live, now pay up!" WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

Perhaps I did not make my thoughts clear enough - CONCEPTION is by CHANCE.


Once the child is born - chance has nothing to do with it.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I wonder what correlation, if any, there is between children who were in foster homes and criminals.
(I'm sure atlantabiolab has an answer to this).

It;s very high. But if that is a pro-abortion argument it;s pure socialism, and I know you're not a socialist.

BTW the answer to that problem is to stop paying people to raise children.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

If someone doesn't agree with your point of view you treat them like they are imbeciles.

Your feelings on this thread could be summarized as "because I want it that way". All of your posts are variations on that theme. Either I or ABL has shown every logical loophole in every statement you;ve made, and you just change words....

We've gone from "I'm a woman" to "chance" to my favorite )in post 131) about how if a man didn't want anything to do with his child, you wouldn't want anything from him.

That's wonderful that you wouldn't want anything. But the bottom line is, we live in a society that demands otherwise of fathers, so your own feelings (and they are feelings, they are not logical constructs) are irrelevant.

The chance argument is also anti-abortion, and one day maybe you'll figure it out.

I am not treating you like an imbecile. (Good word though -technical definition = someone with an IQ of 25-50, though not really used anymore in psychology). I don't criticize you, just your arguments.

I wouldn't call your arguments imbecilic. That's too harsh. "Moronic" is more appropriate (technical definition of moron, IQ 50-75)

 

[Longhorn85]

Velvett, I totally disagree with you on this one, but your points are well thought out and articulated. Kudos for being one of the few women on this board who will go toe-to-toe with those of us who love to debate the topics of the day.

 

[the nature boy]

It;s very high. But if that is a pro-abortion argument it;s pure socialism, and I know you're not a socialist.

every now and then socialistic measures must be put in place to protect society. Abortion is one of them.

 

[WalkingBeast]

On a brighter note: How do you remove dead babies from a pick-up truck?

With a pitch fork

What did the father scream out as he fucked his baby?

"Oh, baby!"

Thank you...No need for applause! Shows over boys and girls....

 

[velvett]

Your feelings on this thread could be summarized as "because I want it that way". All of your posts are variations on that theme. Either I or ABL has shown every logical loophole in every statement you;ve made, and you just change words....

Let's review the brilliance of your responses to me, shall we.


Matt does sarcasm while trying to remind us that he answered all the why’s of the world more than once today.

that's been made clear like 5 times already.

good of you to go for 6 though.

Matt briefly tells us about his dating expectations & life experiences.

So do I. I get enough stimulation from the other areas of my life.

Side note: keeping the tasks simple precludes having to tell her how to do them.

If not I'll stay single for a while. Treats me well enough.

Hope you find what you're looking for too.

Matt tries to be funny while insulting - get this guy a microphone.

Don't bring Jesus into this. This post has remained Curling-free and should stay that way.

Matt gets political and argues that men should have rights too – because it’s not their fault they are without uterus.

Choice--->consequences. It's gender neutral. We are all the beneficiaries of someone's decision not to abort us. How can anyone of either gender argue FOR a procedure which, if done on them, would have resulted in their non-existence?

This is nonsense. If taxpayer savings were the goal of legislation, the first law paassed would be the immediate machine gunningof all persons over 65. We spend almost half of the federal budget on them annually. Think of the savings if we killed them off.

Matt explaining why logical people like him are far superior to those with emotion and irrelevant whinny thoughts.

Yes, I call it death by logic. I suppose your posts could be called "life by emotion".
If we are discussing legislation, and public policy, none of this "how it feels" crappo matters at all. Appeals to emotion just make you sound whiny. Never thought you a whiner, but I guess I never knew what questions to ask.

Your appeals to amorphous social perspecitves are complete non-starters.

We've gone from "I'm a woman" to "chance" to my favorite )in post 131) about how if a man didn't want anything to do with his child, you wouldn't want anything from him.

Yes of course you're right. I should absolutely force a man to take of a child that he states he does not want that make such good sense me why didn't I see it your way. How long do you think I will have to spend in court to get those child support checks?

That's wonderful that you wouldn't want anything. But the bottom line is, we live in a society that demands otherwise of fathers, so your own feelings (and they are feelings, they are not logical constructs) are irrelevant.

Of course my thoughts and feelings are irrelevant, I mean wasn't that perfectly clear when coming into the world with a vagina and not a penis? Please try and be more enlightening next time - you're starting to slip.

The chance argument is also anti-abortion, and one day maybe you'll figure it out.

I would have never been able to figure that one out without you pointing that out for me. Should I send you payment or will you just bill me for your time?

I am not treating you like an imbecile. (Good word though -technical definition = someone with an IQ of 25-50, though not really used anymore in psychology). I don't criticize you, just your arguments.

I wouldn't call your arguments imbecilic. That's too harsh. "Moronic" is more appropriate (technical definition of moron, IQ 50-75)

Oh my goodness - in depth knowledge of Psychology too!


Ladies better catch this one while he's still available.




Oh and Matt - before you go - please entertain us with your relevant thoughts and logical deductions on IVF (In Vitro Fertilization) and how it pertains to God’s way and chance.

 

[velvett]

Velvett, I totally disagree with you on this one, but your points are well thought out and articulated. Kudos for being one of the few women on this board who will go toe-to-toe with those of us who love to debate the topics of the day.

We don't have to agree - if we all agree on everything we would have nothing to talk about.


I appreciate the comment.


Thanks.

 

[atlantabiolab]

every now and then socialistic measures must be put in place to protect society. Abortion is one of them.

Pffffttt...sure it does

 

[Tiervexx]

Let's review the brilliance of your responses to me, shall we.


Matt does sarcasm while trying to remind us that he answered all the why’s of the world more than once today.



Matt briefly tells us about his dating expectations & life experiences.



Matt tries to be funny while insulting - get this guy a microphone.



Matt gets political and argues that men should have rights too – because it’s not their fault they are without uterus.



Matt explaining why logical people like him are far superior to those with emotion and irrelevant whinny thoughts.





Yes of course you're right. I should absolutely force a man to take of a child that he states he does not want that make such good sense me why didn't I see it your way. How long do you think I will have to spend in court to get those child support checks?




Of course my thoughts and feelings are irrelevant, I mean wasn't that perfectly clear when coming into the world with a vagina and not a penis? Please try and be more enlightening next time - you're starting to slip.




I would have never been able to figure that one out without you pointing that out for me. Should I send you payment or will you just bill me for your time?




Oh my goodness - in depth knowledge of Psychology too!


Ladies better catch this one while he's still available.




Oh and Matt - before you go - please entertain us with your relevant thoughts and logical deductions on IVF (In Vitro Fertilization) and how it pertains to God’s way and chance.

LOL

 

[Tiervexx]

I see the beginning of the end for abortion. If it is a womans body and she can do with it as she pleases, then why can't men do the same? Or anyone? I mean, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, suicide, etc?

You are saying that women should not be able to have abortions because people can't do other things with their body such as drugs and suicide?

This is a horrible argument because the government has not right to outlaw these things either, but that is a debate for another thread.