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Fighting a mountain lion

tbuz67

New member
In certain places of the country, sightings of cougars are becoming more and more common. There have been cougar attacks in the U.S. in recent years that have resulted in human deaths. I'm guessing here, but a cougar may weigh between 115-150 lbs. I've read in Readers Digest about the mountain loin killings in California and they are a bit disturbing.
How would you defend yourself against a mountain lion? Do you think groundfighting tactics could work? How about striking?

What does everyone think?
 
I think it is a bad situation
this isn't a kid in school trying to take your lunch money or an angry coworker who wants to blacken your eye..
this is a killer that wants you dead
if you have something handy to strike it with that may help
I would personally rather keep to striking, I dont' like the idea of grappling with someone/thing that has built in razors and spikes...
 
mountain lions are gonna try to jump you from behind. You want to stare them down, yell, throw rocks, and generally try to look big

Other than that, carry a knife.
 
casualbb said:
mountain lions are gonna try to jump you from behind. You want to stare them down, yell, throw rocks, and generally try to look big

Other than that, carry a knife.

Springfield armory xd series .40 cal 4 inch service model should do it.
 
u would hav a less than 10% chance of beating a mountain lion with ur bare hands. evolution has not looked favourably on humans when it comes to using nothing other than wat god gave us. the only thing u could hope for is a finger in its eyes. If its a bear then u can kiss ur ass goodbye, even with a weapon, unless its an m16.
 
oc spray
 
Saint V said:
:rolleyes: that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard......you think a cougar has never killed anyone big? They ain't scared dude!



What he means by "big" is to make yourself appear large and scary by spreading out your arms and stuff... He doesn't mean "big" like a BBer, but like another large predator.





-BRR
 
There is no doubt that mountain lions are tough as nails in their own element, but if you go in with the right mindset anything is possible. Humans are capable of being fearless too you know.

First thing to realise is, unless you are 6'6 280 lbs of raw muscle, striking is a waste of your time. These things have tight ass muscle tissue capable of EXPLOSIVE and instantaneous power. They don't feel minor pain. So what you need to do is demobilize it, and then start looking for ways to cripple it. More specifically, breaking limbs while suffocating it. I'd reccomend getting it where it is laying on it's back on top of you on the ground. Have fun doing this...

Grab it around the neck and squeeze...hard as a motherfucker. While you are doing that use your legs to force one of it's limbs to snap. If you hear it snap, be prepared for a sudden burst of energy as it's defense mechanism kicks in doing anything to get away...as if it hasn't been doing that already. Keep breaking things until you feel comfortable enough to let go and let it stumble off into the horizon.

Just remember, as long as it's on all 4's...you're probably fucked.
 
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King Cobra said:
Grab it around the neck and squeeze...hard as a motherfucker. While you are doing that use your legs to force one of it's limbs to snap. If you hear it snap, be prepared for a sudden burst of energy as it's defense mechanism kicks in doing anything to get away...as if it hasn't been doing that already. Keep breaking things until you feel comfortable enough to let go and let it stumble off into the horizon.
Either that, or just lay down & pour A-1 sauce all over yourself. Same result.
 
gettinstrong00110 said:
u would hav a less than 10% chance of beating a mountain lion with ur bare hands. evolution has not looked favourably on humans when it comes to using nothing other than wat god gave us. the only thing u could hope for is a finger in its eyes. If its a bear then u can kiss ur ass goodbye, even with a weapon, unless its an m16.


I wouldn't take a 5.56mm against a BEAR ever. You'd be lucky if the round would penetrate the adipose tissue. Close range with a bear or any wild carnivore for that matter, I'd rather have a sidearm, preferably .45ACP or larger.
 
redguru said:
I wouldn't take a 5.56mm against a BEAR ever. You'd be lucky if the round would penetrate the adipose tissue. Close range with a bear or any wild carnivore for that matter, I'd rather have a sidearm, preferably .45ACP or larger.

I'd rather not BE at close range with a bear lol
 
tbuz67 said:
In certain places of the country, sightings of cougars are becoming more and more common. There have been cougar attacks in the U.S. in recent years that have resulted in human deaths. I'm guessing here, but a cougar may weigh between 115-150 lbs. I've read in Readers Digest about the mountain loin killings in California and they are a bit disturbing.
How would you defend yourself against a mountain lion? Do you think groundfighting tactics could work? How about striking?

What does everyone think?
Taken from 'The Worst Case Scenario Survival Handbook' - How to escape from a mountain lion.

1) Do not run.
2) Try to make yourself appear bigger by opeming your coat wide.
3) Do not crouch down.
4) Back away slowly or wait until the animal moves away.
5) If the lion behaves aggressively, throw stones.
6) Fight back if you are attacked.

I think the last one says it all. Some animals you may have a better chance by appearing as a non-threat but it semms with a mountain lion you've got to stand up and fight back.

Rather you than me though.
 
King Cobra said:
Grab it around the neck and squeeze...hard as a motherfucker. While you are doing that use your legs to force one of it's limbs to snap. If you hear it snap, be prepared for a sudden burst of energy as it's defense mechanism kicks in doing anything to get away...as if it hasn't been doing that already. Keep breaking things until you feel comfortable enough to let go and let it stumble off into the horizon.

Just remember, as long as it's on all 4's...you're probably fucked.


LOL! Thanks for the lion fighting tips man.
 
not necessarily... as humans encroach upon cougar habitats they become less afraid.

in orange county a 60-year old man was attacked by a cougar. He fought back with a utility knife, killing the cougar but sustaining serious injuries himself. he then hiked back to civilization while bleeding heavily and got care.

in an ideal world cougars are afraid of human males, but you never know
 
A mountain lion goes for the throat and back of neck....at the same time his back legs come up to dissembole you....defense is a .44 mag
 
Man if you are attacked by a mountain lion you'll never know it until it's too late they are good hunters and your chances of beating one with just your hands is about the same as stopping a car witha front kick it won't happen.
 
shamrock11 said:
Man if you are attacked by a mountain lion you'll never know it until it's too late they are good hunters and your chances of beating one with just your hands is about the same as stopping a car witha front kick it won't happen.
Thank You
 
casualbb said:
not necessarily... as humans encroach upon cougar habitats they become less afraid.

in orange county a 60-year old man was attacked by a cougar. He fought back with a utility knife, killing the cougar but sustaining serious injuries himself. he then hiked back to civilization while bleeding heavily and got care.

in an ideal world cougars are afraid of human males, but you never know
it not males they are afraid of. its the size.
 
redguru said:
I wouldn't take a 5.56mm against a BEAR ever. You'd be lucky if the round would penetrate the adipose tissue. Close range with a bear or any wild carnivore for that matter, I'd rather have a sidearm, preferably .45ACP or larger.


bro, 5.56 would be 10 times better than a .45 against a bear. A bear would laugh at you, mag after mag, of .45. THAT would no penetrate the adipose tissue. 5.56 would have a much better change of doing damge if aimed at the skull (.45 might give a grizzly a headache....maybe).

large bear:

handgun: above .44magnum (yes-above). I have read probably 4 stories about bears that were shot and killed with rifles, and 4-5 .44 mag bullets were pulled out of them. Scary shit.

rifle: 7.62x 39 and above.


Also, if you are taking a body shot on a bear, even a direct hit to the heart, expect 1-2 minutes to die. They can live that long iwht no heart.
 
M lions attack from behind. They sneak up. You WILL be caught off guard. I larger caliber hangun (easily accessed becuase you will be on the ground fumbling for it), or a easily accessible knife with be your best bet.
 
the thing most people are over looking is the fear fsctor that comes into play in this situation. People can say I would do this or yu could that, but the fact of the matter is you have no idea what you would do. You would be scrad to death b/c you would not be prepared to fight a mountain lion. How many people actually train to fight a mountain lion? None, so in a real life fight a person would be to scard to be able to know what was going on.
 
casualbb said:
not necessarily... as humans encroach upon cougar habitats they become less afraid.

in orange county a 60-year old man was attacked by a cougar. He fought back with a utility knife, killing the cougar but sustaining serious injuries himself. he then hiked back to civilization while bleeding heavily and got care.

in an ideal world cougars are afraid of human males, but you never know

if I were that oldman I'd keep that utility knife (have it in a plaque) and tell that story EVERY day
 
Guvna said:
bro, 5.56 would be 10 times better than a .45 against a bear. A bear would laugh at you, mag after mag, of .45. THAT would no penetrate the adipose tissue. 5.56 would have a much better change of doing damge if aimed at the skull (.45 might give a grizzly a headache....maybe).

large bear:

handgun: above .44magnum (yes-above). I have read probably 4 stories about bears that were shot and killed with rifles, and 4-5 .44 mag bullets were pulled out of them. Scary shit.

rifle: 7.62x 39 and above.


Also, if you are taking a body shot on a bear, even a direct hit to the heart, expect 1-2 minutes to die. They can live that long iwht no heart.

dude
a .45 is considerably more stopping power then a 5.56
when the british military considered switching to the 5.56 round the soldiers made many complaints about the lack of stopping power
no one, has EVER complained at a lack of power from a .45
you do realize a 5.56mm is a .223 right?
I heard a story about a Grizzley killed by a .22 but it was basically a miracle shot (the guy hit the bear square in the neck and snaped it's spinal cord, while it was charging him)
 
Kane Fan said:
dude
a .45 is considerably more stopping power then a 5.56
when the british military considered switching to the 5.56 round the soldiers made many complaints about the lack of stopping power
no one, has EVER complained at a lack of power from a .45
you do realize a 5.56mm is a .223 right?
I heard a story about a Grizzley killed by a .22 but it was basically a miracle shot (the guy hit the bear square in the neck and snaped it's spinal cord, while it was charging him)

I was going to respond to his strange post, but in another thread he started going off about perpetual motion and tesla coils as the answer to our fossil fuels problems.
 
If you were with a friend you wouldn't have to outrun the moutain lion ... just your friend.

Seriously, I think Rickson beat a moutain lion once.
 
redguru said:
I was going to respond to his strange post, but in another thread he started going off about perpetual motion and tesla coils as the answer to our fossil fuels problems.

I think the answer to all our questions is the girl in your avatar
(my appologies if this little hottie is your gf)
 
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Kane Fan said:
dude
a .45 is considerably more stopping power then a 5.56
when the british military considered switching to the 5.56 round the soldiers made many complaints about the lack of stopping power
no one, has EVER complained at a lack of power from a .45
you do realize a 5.56mm is a .223 right?
I heard a story about a Grizzley killed by a .22 but it was basically a miracle shot (the guy hit the bear square in the neck and snaped it's spinal cord, while it was charging him)

Dude, just some basic math here....

Kinetic energy = 1/2 * (mass) * (velocity)^2

A 62 grain, 5.56 mm round traveling at 3025 ft/sec gives you about 1,259 ft-lb of kinetic energy.

A 154 grain, 7.62 mm round traveling at 2104 ft/sec gives you about 1,513 ft-lb of kinetic energy.

A 230 grain, .45 ACP rounf traveling at 850 ft/sec gives you about 369 ft-lb of kinetic energy.

Mind you that these are just calculations based on muzzle velocity of Wolf brand ammunition, but run true regardless of manufacturer. This doesn't even take into account the "spall" of the higher velocity rifle rounds once inside the body's soft tissues, which also causes considerable damage.

Now, I don't know about you, but having been in the military, and having seen first hand the effects of both rifle and handgun rounds on humans, I can say these things:

1. When a person gets hit by a handgun round, they pretty much keep doing what they were doing before you shot them. They don't knock people onto their asses like in the movies, as they simply lack the energy to do so. Multiple center of mass hits are required to put a person down with a handgun, and even with multiple hits by a .45 ACP, the target usually manages to lumber off somewhere to bleed out.

2. When a person gets hit by a rifle round, one hit usually puts them down if it is center of mass, with the exception of the 5.56 mm round. I can tell you from experience that it usually takes two hits to put a person down with the 5.56 mm round. The internal organ damage from the "spall" of a rifle round is usually enough to ensure death without prompt medical facilities.


Now, a bear has considerably higher bone density than a person. So, whereas a handgun round can fracture a human femur, it will not do so to any except the smallest of bones in a bear. Also, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, bears have considerable adipose tissue, which a .45 ACP round will most likely fail to penetrate. The end result, shooting a bear with a handgun will probably just really piss it off, unless you are very lucky.:)
 
the .45 is twice the size of the 5.56
which is more bleeding
and more overall tissue damage
tho bears (grizzleys at least) do not tend to bleed a great deal from many wounds
so much so that they can be difficult to track from what I have heard
I wouldn't know first hand tho I don't hunt animals


I've heard what you said about the 5.56 taking more then one shot to drop someone
I've never heard anyone complain about a .45 lacking stopping power tho
 
Mountain Lions usually attack before the person realizes he's being hunted, most of the time with one lunge he'll have killed you. You might not even know what hit you. I'd say the only defence is dont be alone (they usually dont attack a group of people).

If you see him coming at you its gonna be quick so you'd better have a gun and be quick to shoot. I doubt if a knife or martial arts will do any good unless you are extremely lucky.


Saint V said:
:rolleyes: that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard......you think a cougar has never killed anyone big? They ain't scared dude!
Actually there less likely to attack a bigger person, if you make yourself look big you have a better chance of scaring him. Waving arms jumping up and down, yelling ect. I live in Colorado and Mountain Lion attacks happen pretty often I guess.


As for the bullet that would kill large most people have a extreme underestimation of a bullet. .357, .44 and .45s can all kill bears easily. All it takes is a steady hand and a bit of luck.
 
Nope, talked to someone who's husband was in Alaska and killed a gris with a .357 that had him cornered, in the camp he was staying at. Only had one bullet in his pistol, more then likely he was very lucky but it can be done.
 
I think he had fired a few shots a few hours before and he had emtyed all but one shot and forgot to reload... Yes the lady is very religous and says it was a miracle. I personlly wouldnt wanna be in the situation of course ;)
 
Kane Fan said:
dude
a .45 is considerably more stopping power then a 5.56
when the british military considered switching to the 5.56 round the soldiers made many complaints about the lack of stopping power
no one, has EVER complained at a lack of power from a .45
you do realize a 5.56mm is a .223 right?
I heard a story about a Grizzley killed by a .22 but it was basically a miracle shot (the guy hit the bear square in the neck and snaped it's spinal cord, while it was charging him)



http://web4.integraonline.com/~bbroadside/Ballistic_Info.html


.223 has THREE times the power of a .45 :rolleyes:
 
Kane Fan said:
the .45 is twice the size of the 5.56
which is more bleeding
and more overall tissue damage
tho bears (grizzleys at least) do not tend to bleed a great deal from many wounds
so much so that they can be difficult to track from what I have heard
I wouldn't know first hand tho I don't hunt animals


I've heard what you said about the 5.56 taking more then one shot to drop someone
I've never heard anyone complain about a .45 lacking stopping power tho


Wrong again. Bleeding isnt even a factor here. 95% of the bear's body wont even be penetrated by a .45. It will stop in adipose tissue. Nor will a .45 penetrate a grizzly skull.

a 5.56 will do both.


the reason people talk about a 5.56 "lack of stopping power" is because it tends to poke a small hole in the target, and travel all the way through, without tumbling. This is only at lower velocities, long distances, or with a short barrell, however. An m-16 with a proper length barrell with cause far more damage that any .45.


You dont hear about people complaining about .45s stopping power because it is a HANDGUN. it will be used at 25 yards tops, and it has great stopping power....for a HANDGUN. It couldnt stand next to ANY rifle cailber.


Also, you cant compare HUMAN stats at 7 yards (decent stopping power wiht .45) and human stats of a 5.56 (not very good stopping power at 200+ yards) to a bear. A bear's fat layer is a thick as an average human being. You shoot a human with a .45, he is torn up, and the bullet is usually still inside of him. YOu shoot a bear with a .45, it is still in his adipose layer. You shoot a human with a .223, at more than 200 yards, with a shorter barrel, it will poke a hole in him, but have alomose all of its energy left. You shoot a bear with a .223, it pokes through the fat layer, and deposits all of its engery into the bear-and stops inside him somewhere.




I cant believe I went into this. Please read a little before you talk.
 
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Guvna said:
Like the guy above, read before you speak. :rolleyes:

http://www.cougarinfo.com/attacks2.htm

it occurs to me you are an asshole
do something about that attitude
it'll help you in life
now to highlight your ignorance
there are largegame hunters that use pistols
very few people hunt lions or other large animals with a .22 or .223
now keep in mind I'm not saying I WANT to go after a bear with a .45 or a .223
I'd just as soon leave the bear the hell alone
now if you can cut down on the attitude and act like a grown up
I'll be glad to continue the conversation and we can go example for example
on the other hand if you want to hurl insults and be condesending
I'll go that road with you to but I'm giving you fair warning, I'm a hell of a lot better at it
 
OK, lets get something straight here. Real world results are much different than the size of a hole on a paper target. The 5.56 mm round has excellent ballistic properties for what is was designed for. That is, to engage a target out to roughly 400 meters, in a rifle with a barrel length of 14.5 inches or greater. Below a 14.5 inch barrel, the round will lose the necessary velocity to effectively engage a target out to the range that the round was designed for. However, at closer range, it will still have over three times the energy of a .45 ACP round.

However, more important than the energy delivered by the round, is what happens to the round when it enters the target....

A standard FMJ handgun round will enter the body, and barring striking a bone, it will continue into the target until all of its energy is depleted. This will cause one wound channel. Any soft tissue, blood vessel or organ damage will start the process of internal bleeding. Handgun rounds are inherently stable rounds in both low drag, low viscosity and high drag, high viscosity environments, and generally do not spall (tumble) within the body, as they simply lack the velocity and inherent instability in more viscous environments (aka: in the body) to do so.

A 5.56 mm round is an inherently stable round in low drag, low voscosity environments (aka: air), but is inherently unstable in high drag, high viscosity environments. What this means is that once the round has entered the body, it's inherent instability will cause it to spall, or tumble, once it has entered the body and penetrated a number of centimeters into soft tissue. That, coupled with its extreme velocity, causes a massive shockwave within the body, damaging blood vessels, soft tissue, and organs FAR outside the diameter of the initial wound channel.

As I said before, I have PERSONALLY seen the effects of both handgun rounds and rifle rounds on human beings. Both in combat situations, as well as in post mortem autopsys. Rifle rounds, in almost 100% of situations, cause massive internal injuries, far in excess of what a handgun will cause, simply because of the facts outlined in the above two paragraphs.

Extrapolating these results to an animal with the bone density and white adipose tissue depth of a bear, means that a handgun round will most certainly fail to kill a bear, as it will fail to penetrate these substances, barring extraordinary circumstances.

If you want to talk about terminal ballistic properties of various rounds, I would be more than happy to indulge. However, as I said before, barring extraordinary circumstances, shooting a bear with a handgun will just piss it off. :chomp:

Can it be done? Yes. Is it likely? Hell no!
 
Kane Fan said:
stopping power is different from velocity
it's quite simple really
has the .223 round been something of a let down to soldiers before? yes
now how many complaints has anyone heard of about a .45?
I personally know of none


How many carry a .45? How many use it? Barely any.



"stopping powder is different from velocity."

Yes it is. You calculate foot pounds of energy (stopping power, essentially) with velocity and bullett weight. .223 wins every time.
 
ziggyziggy said:
OK, lets get something straight here. Real world results are much different than the size of a hole on a paper target. The 5.56 mm round has excellent ballistic properties for what is was designed for. That is, to engage a target out to roughly 400 meters, in a rifle with a barrel length of 14.5 inches or greater. Below a 14.5 inch barrel, the round will lose the necessary velocity to effectively engage a target out to the range that the round was designed for. However, at closer range, it will still have over three times the energy of a .45 ACP round.

However, more important than the energy delivered by the round, is what happens to the round when it enters the target....

A standard FMJ handgun round will enter the body, and barring striking a bone, it will continue into the target until all of its energy is depleted. This will cause one wound channel. Any soft tissue, blood vessel or organ damage will start the process of internal bleeding. Handgun rounds are inherently stable rounds in both low drag, low viscosity and high drag, high viscosity environments, and generally do not spall (tumble) within the body, as they simply lack the velocity and inherent instability in more viscous environments (aka: in the body) to do so.

A 5.56 mm round is an inherently stable round in low drag, low voscosity environments (aka: air), but is inherently unstable in high drag, high viscosity environments. What this means is that once the round has entered the body, it's inherent instability will cause it to spall, or tumble, once it has entered the body and penetrated a number of centimeters into soft tissue. That, coupled with its extreme velocity, causes a massive shockwave within the body, damaging blood vessels, soft tissue, and organs FAR outside the diameter of the initial wound channel.

As I said before, I have PERSONALLY seen the effects of both handgun rounds and rifle rounds on human beings. Both in combat situations, as well as in post mortem autopsys. Rifle rounds, in almost 100% of situations, cause massive internal injuries, far in excess of what a handgun will cause, simply because of the facts outlined in the above two paragraphs.

Extrapolating these results to an animal with the bone density and white adipose tissue depth of a bear, means that a handgun round will most certainly fail to kill a bear, as it will fail to penetrate these substances, barring extraordinary circumstances.

If you want to talk about terminal ballistic properties of various rounds, I would be more than happy to indulge. However, as I said before, barring extraordinary circumstances, shooting a bear with a handgun will just piss it off. :chomp:

Can it be done? Yes. Is it likely? Hell no!


:)
 


I am genuinly sorry sorry if I came off as overly harsh.


However, it is a pet peeve of mine when people argue a point that I know is wrong, and is factually based. It is like to me somone arguing that a wall of which we both stand in front is red, and they are trying to convince me it is green. As in the case of "sore" claiming, "A mountain lion will only attack you if you are a woman or child." Tell that to all the men that have been attacked by them. I am sure they will disagree.


A .223 has Three times the power of a .45. It also tumbles. Yes, under VERY certain circumstances it can have "less stopping power" than a .223- on a HUMAN, but that will NEVER be the case with a bear.
 
ziggyziggy said:
OK, lets get something straight here. Real world results are much different than the size of a hole on a paper target. The 5.56 mm round has excellent ballistic properties for what is was designed for. That is, to engage a target out to roughly 400 meters, in a rifle with a barrel length of 14.5 inches or greater. Below a 14.5 inch barrel, the round will lose the necessary velocity to effectively engage a target out to the range that the round was designed for. However, at closer range, it will still have over three times the energy of a .45 ACP round.

However, more important than the energy delivered by the round, is what happens to the round when it enters the target....

A standard FMJ handgun round will enter the body, and barring striking a bone, it will continue into the target until all of its energy is depleted. This will cause one wound channel. Any soft tissue, blood vessel or organ damage will start the process of internal bleeding. Handgun rounds are inherently stable rounds in both low drag, low viscosity and high drag, high viscosity environments, and generally do not spall (tumble) within the body, as they simply lack the velocity and inherent instability in more viscous environments (aka: in the body) to do so.

A 5.56 mm round is an inherently stable round in low drag, low voscosity environments (aka: air), but is inherently unstable in high drag, high viscosity environments. What this means is that once the round has entered the body, it's inherent instability will cause it to spall, or tumble, once it has entered the body and penetrated a number of centimeters into soft tissue. That, coupled with its extreme velocity, causes a massive shockwave within the body, damaging blood vessels, soft tissue, and organs FAR outside the diameter of the initial wound channel.

As I said before, I have PERSONALLY seen the effects of both handgun rounds and rifle rounds on human beings. Both in combat situations, as well as in post mortem autopsys. Rifle rounds, in almost 100% of situations, cause massive internal injuries, far in excess of what a handgun will cause, simply because of the facts outlined in the above two paragraphs.

Extrapolating these results to an animal with the bone density and white adipose tissue depth of a bear, means that a handgun round will most certainly fail to kill a bear, as it will fail to penetrate these substances, barring extraordinary circumstances.

If you want to talk about terminal ballistic properties of various rounds, I would be more than happy to indulge. However, as I said before, barring extraordinary circumstances, shooting a bear with a handgun will just piss it off. :chomp:

Can it be done? Yes. Is it likely? Hell no!

to look at real world examples then
explain militiary complains about the .223 round
and the lack of complaints about the .45 round
also there are big game hunters who hunt with pistols
(I am not sure of them hunting bears specifically but big game in geneal such as boars moose etc) but I know of none that hunt anything bigger then a deer with a .223
(that dosn't mean it hasn't happend or anything just I've never heard of it)
 
Guvna said:
How many carry a .45? How many use it? Barely any.



"stopping powder is different from velocity."

Yes it is. You calculate foot pounds of energy (stopping power, essentially) with velocity and bullett weight. .223 wins every time.

barely any?
I guess the US Military from WWI on until relativly recently dosn't count then?

and if the .223 wins every time explain my question (instead of repeatedly dodging it because it takes away from your argument)
why so many complaints about the .223 from Military officers (esp Special Forces types) but so few (I've heard of zero) complaints about the .45
(which was used for many years by the US Military as the standard issue sidearm)
 
Guvna said:
I am genuinly sorry sorry if I came off as overly harsh.


However, it is a pet peeve of mine when people argue a point that I know is wrong, and is factually based. It is like to me somone arguing that a wall of which we both stand in front is red, and they are trying to convince me it is green. As in the case of "sore" claiming, "A mountain lion will only attack you if you are a woman or child." Tell that to all the men that have been attacked by them. I am sure they will disagree.


A .223 has Three times the power of a .45. It also tumbles. Yes, under VERY certain circumstances it can have "less stopping power" than a .223- on a HUMAN, but that will NEVER be the case with a bear.

no I thin it's dumb to say a mountain lion will only attack a woman or child to
then again I think it's dumb for anyone to try and predict an animals behavior unless they work with that animal regularly
but that's a different argument

but I'm still waiting on an explination
math is one thing, results are another
big game pistol hunters yes
big game hunters using .22's? maybe but I've not heard of them
in fact I'v eheard that a .22 killing a lion would be a 'miracle shot'
tho I have heard of hunting boar and moose with pistols
I realize boar moose lions and bear are all different
but they all qualify as big game
believe it or not I also read a story about a hunters daughter dropping an elephant with a perfect eye shot from a .22
now THAT kicks ass
 
Kane Fan said:
barely any?
I guess the US Military from WWI on until relativly recently dosn't count then?

and if the .223 wins every time explain my question (instead of repeatedly dodging it because it takes away from your argument)
why so many complaints about the .223 from Military officers (esp Special Forces types) but so few (I've heard of zero) complaints about the .45
(which was used for many years by the US Military as the standard issue sidearm)

Compared to a handgun round, a rifle round will win every time. I have carried a .45 ACp and a 9mm as a sidearm in the military. But NEVER have I considered a handgun a a primary weapon ... only as a secondary weapon in the case that my primary weapon (an assault rifle or main battle firle) is out of ammunition or has a malfunction. No one with any credible combat experience will consider a handgun to be a primary combat weapon, as they simply lack the stopping power to qualify as one.

Yes, the SF community has been pushing the production of a 6.8mm round for their assult rifles to augment the power of the 5.56mm round. However, the 6.8mm round does not penetrate body armor, especially level 3 -4 plates or the equivalent, in my experience, to justify the interest. Anyone with military or law enforcement combat experience will tell you what they would prefer to have in their hands. It would not be a .45 ACP handgun...

Zig
 
rickson by armbar (sorry I had to)

50mag desert eagle= stick it right to the cougars face and say "break yo self foo" works every time.
 
Guvna said:
A .223 has Three times the power of a .45. It also tumbles. Yes, under VERY certain circumstances it can have "less stopping power" than a .223- on a HUMAN, but that will NEVER be the case with a bear.

I am not doubting the power of any centerfire rifle cartridge vice that fired in a handgun. But the problem is if you are walking in the woods and it isn't hunting season, in most states it is illegal to carry a rifle. So normally I would be carrying a sidearm (for snakes and such).
 
redguru said:
I am not doubting the power of any centerfire rifle cartridge vice that fired in a handgun. But the problem is if you are walking in the woods and it isn't hunting season, in most states it is illegal to carry a rifle. So normally I would be carrying a sidearm (for snakes and such).

You do make a good point there.......

Zig
 
ziggyziggy said:
Compared to a handgun round, a rifle round will win every time. I have carried a .45 ACp and a 9mm as a sidearm in the military. But NEVER have I considered a handgun a a primary weapon ... only as a secondary weapon in the case that my primary weapon (an assault rifle or main battle firle) is out of ammunition or has a malfunction. No one with any credible combat experience will consider a handgun to be a primary combat weapon, as they simply lack the stopping power to qualify as one.

Yes, the SF community has been pushing the production of a 6.8mm round for their assult rifles to augment the power of the 5.56mm round. However, the 6.8mm round does not penetrate body armor, especially level 3 -4 plates or the equivalent, in my experience, to justify the interest. Anyone with military or law enforcement combat experience will tell you what they would prefer to have in their hands. It would not be a .45 ACP handgun...

Zig

it's not a matter of preference
it's a matter of performance
many militiary officers have had call to use their .45 sidearm and still no complaints
and again to the hunting examples (which actually fit more in line with the argument)
 
redguru said:
I am not doubting the power of any centerfire rifle cartridge vice that fired in a handgun. But the problem is if you are walking in the woods and it isn't hunting season, in most states it is illegal to carry a rifle. So normally I would be carrying a sidearm (for snakes and such).


I don't generally carry a gun or even a knife so I'd have to just really hope the cat didn't want to eat me very badly
or luck out and find a rock or something
 
I heard from a number of sources around here a .22 will stop a lion easily, the sound will more then likely scare him away. I think you'd have to be near the den for it to contenue to attack you.

As for a .45 thing I've talked to someone who said he usess a load on his .45 that drops whitetail deer as quick as his 30-06 does. I guess the type of ammunition is what counts.


These arent facts but things I've heard by talking to people so im not sure about them but I'd imagine them to be true since its coming from older experianced outdoorsmen.

I also heard pepper spray is one of the most usefull things to scare away bears and mtn lions. Also its legal to carry.
 
I read that pepper spray was nearly useless against bears...

and for the .22 I'm talking about Lion Lions not mountain lions
 
This post is hysterical. :FRlol:

I seriously doubt a single person would survive an encounter with a mountain lion. Obviously, even with bare hands, it's possible. However, it is highly unlikely. The odds will be stacked against you in most every way possible, and you had better be damn lucky to pull out of the encounter alive.
 
Kane Fan said:
I read that pepper spray was nearly useless against bears...

Where'd you read that? I've heard from quite a few people who say its the best thing to use. Sometimes if you shoot a bear you can get in a bit of trouble with the law.

Also heard sometimes its more dangerous to shoot and wound a bear, as compaired to spraying the eyes with some pepper.
 
Sure, if you shot me I'd be pissed. However, spray my eyes with a foreign substance so they feel like they're on fire and all is forgiven. :rolleyes: Just playing, man.

I don't think many people would give a shit about the law, especially if the bear is attacking you. In fact, you can just yell "it's comin' right for us!" and you're in the clear!
 
Tom Treutlein said:
This post is hysterical. :FRlol:

I seriously doubt a single person would survive an encounter with a mountain lion. Obviously, even with bare hands, it's possible. However, it is highly unlikely. The odds will be stacked against you in most every way possible, and you had better be damn lucky to pull out of the encounter alive.

The average adult male cougar is 110 pounds. That's like a big dog.

They will try to get the back of your neck with a criplling strike, but failing that will just bite & claw. That will cause a lot of nasty cuts but none expressly lethal. I'd say death is far from guaranteed
 
Tom Treutlein said:
This post is hysterical. :FRlol:

I seriously doubt a single person would survive an encounter with a mountain lion. Obviously, even with bare hands, it's possible. However, it is highly unlikely. The odds will be stacked against you in most every way possible, and you had better be damn lucky to pull out of the encounter alive.

blind luck is pretty much my method of dealing with a mountain lion attack
I'll help blindluck along with some kicking and screaming like a little girl but I can't be sure if that will work
 
Wazzzzzzzup89 said:
Where'd you read that? I've heard from quite a few people who say its the best thing to use. Sometimes if you shoot a bear you can get in a bit of trouble with the law.

Also heard sometimes its more dangerous to shoot and wound a bear, as compaired to spraying the eyes with some pepper.

probubly best to just leave the damned bear alone
it was on an internet site somewhere about Griz bears specifically
I was looking for some cool pictures of them for a screensaver or wallpaper and I did a search on grizzley bears and happend to start reading about them
I might have read that spraying pepper on items is not an effective way to keep bears away from them
but I am pretty sure I also read spraying it in their face wasn't always effective
ideally avoidence I think is key...
 
redguru said:
I wouldn't take a 5.56mm against a BEAR ever. You'd be lucky if the round would penetrate the adipose tissue. Close range with a bear or any wild carnivore for that matter, I'd rather have a sidearm, preferably .45ACP or larger.
Wrong. A .45 acp is a large slow moving bullet made for slamming into humans and stopping them, not for penetrating deeply. If you were to want any handgun for a bear, a .44 magnum or .454 Casull would be your best bet. Since a rifle was mentioned (M16), in that case you would want a large high velocity round made for taking out big game.
 
Kane Fan said:
the .45 is twice the size of the 5.56
which is more bleeding
and more overall tissue damage
tho bears (grizzleys at least) do not tend to bleed a great deal from many wounds
so much so that they can be difficult to track from what I have heard
I wouldn't know first hand tho I don't hunt animals


I've heard what you said about the 5.56 taking more then one shot to drop someone
I've never heard anyone complain about a .45 lacking stopping power tho
Youre thinking of the stopping power to a person when he is shot, not a 1000 lb. Bear. big difference.
 
Kane Fan said:
to look at real world examples then
explain militiary complains about the .223 round
and the lack of complaints about the .45 round
also there are big game hunters who hunt with pistols
(I am not sure of them hunting bears specifically but big game in geneal such as boars moose etc) but I know of none that hunt anything bigger then a deer with a .223
(that dosn't mean it hasn't happend or anything just I've never heard of it)

.223 for deer, 300 mag for bear. No hunter in his right mind would pick a .223 to hunt big game.
 
Wazzzzzzzup89 said:
I heard from a number of sources around here a .22 will stop a lion easily, the sound will more then likely scare him away. I think you'd have to be near the den for it to contenue to attack you.

As for a .45 thing I've talked to someone who said he usess a load on his .45 that drops whitetail deer as quick as his 30-06 does. I guess the type of ammunition is what counts.


These arent facts but things I've heard by talking to people so im not sure about them but I'd imagine them to be true since its coming from older experianced outdoorsmen.

I also heard pepper spray is one of the most usefull things to scare away bears and mtn lions. Also its legal to carry.

A .22 might scare a lion but it will NOT stop one. No friggin way. A .22 is a basic round used for shooting squirrels and targets. It is capable of killing larger animals, but there is a huge difference in stopping an animal that is charging and having an animal wander off to die AFTER it kills you and whoever you are with.
 
superdave said:
Wrong. A .45 acp is a large slow moving bullet made for slamming into humans and stopping them, not for penetrating deeply. If you were to want any handgun for a bear, a .44 magnum or .454 Casull would be your best bet. Since a rifle was mentioned (M16), in that case you would want a large high velocity round made for taking out big game.

I'd want a big game rifle to
or, better still to just avoid the Bear
or if I can't avoid it avoid upsetting it
 
Breeze said:
A .22 might scare a lion but it will NOT stop one. No friggin way. A .22 is a basic round used for shooting squirrels and targets. It is capable of killing larger animals, but there is a huge difference in stopping an animal that is charging and having an animal wander off to die AFTER it kills you and whoever you are with.

a perfect eye or ear shot (or throat) but it's not something I'd want to bet my life on!
 
ziggyziggy said:
Dude, just some basic math here....

Kinetic energy = 1/2 * (mass) * (velocity)^2

A 62 grain, 5.56 mm round traveling at 3025 ft/sec gives you about 1,259 ft-lb of kinetic energy.

A 154 grain, 7.62 mm round traveling at 2104 ft/sec gives you about 1,513 ft-lb of kinetic energy.

A 230 grain, .45 ACP rounf traveling at 850 ft/sec gives you about 369 ft-lb of kinetic energy.

Mind you that these are just calculations based on muzzle velocity of Wolf brand ammunition, but run true regardless of manufacturer. This doesn't even take into account the "spall" of the higher velocity rifle rounds once inside the body's soft tissues, which also causes considerable damage.

Now, I don't know about you, but having been in the military, and having seen first hand the effects of both rifle and handgun rounds on humans, I can say these things:

1. When a person gets hit by a handgun round, they pretty much keep doing what they were doing before you shot them. They don't knock people onto their asses like in the movies, as they simply lack the energy to do so. Multiple center of mass hits are required to put a person down with a handgun, and even with multiple hits by a .45 ACP, the target usually manages to lumber off somewhere to bleed out.

2. When a person gets hit by a rifle round, one hit usually puts them down if it is center of mass, with the exception of the 5.56 mm round. I can tell you from experience that it usually takes two hits to put a person down with the 5.56 mm round. The internal organ damage from the "spall" of a rifle round is usually enough to ensure death without prompt medical facilities.


Now, a bear has considerably higher bone density than a person. So, whereas a handgun round can fracture a human femur, it will not do so to any except the smallest of bones in a bear. Also, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, bears have considerable adipose tissue, which a .45 ACP round will most likely fail to penetrate. The end result, shooting a bear with a handgun will probably just really piss it off, unless you are very lucky.:)

I have hunted bears and can say from experience that you need a high powered rifle bullet that will penetrate through flesh and bone and still have enough left to damage the internal organs. For me, a 270 or 300 mag works just fine. I have also dropped a bear in its tracks with a 50 cal blackpowder rifle. You also have to consider whether or not the bear is pissed off and charging or is unaware that a bullet is coming it's way. There is little comparison to shooting a bear and shooting a person, the physical differences are huge. A 22 magnum will kill a wide variety of large animals, but that doesn't make it an ideal weapon. A 12 gauge slug will knock a man on his ass as quickly as anything, but it isn't versatile enough to make an ideal combat or bear hunting round.
 
from that injury report link


24 May. 28-year-old Phil Anderson was attacked by an approximately 80 pound mountain lion in Olympic National Park about 20 miles west of Port Angeles, Washington. The lion moved out of the shadows "smoothly and quickly". A mountain biker and wrestler, Anderson first ran backwards but fought when it leapt on his chest. Anderson fell to his back, locked his legs around the cougar, flipped over and buried his thumbs in the animal's throat and choked the cat in and out of consciousness. He kept the front paws pinned back with his forearms. After about two and a half or three minutes, the cat still wriggling, got Anderson's thumb in its mouth and smashed it. That gave the cat the edge. Anderson lost his grip, and the cat's claws went into a whirl and managed to rip through his thick sweatshirt in a couple of places, giving Anderson puncture wounds to the chest. Not wanting more, the lion then fled.
 
20 May. About 11 p.m. a mountain lion attacked a 250 pound bartender, Shadursky, at California Pines Lodge and Restaurant near Alturas in Modoc County, California, as he was taking out the trash. He heard something walking around the pool and went over to see what was going on. When he walked around the pool, he saw what he thought was a large dog about 40 yards away. He called out to the animal, and it turned. Then he realized it was a lion and moved to get away. When he turned back around to see what the animal was doing, it had followed and then stopped about 12 feet from him.

It seemed like it stood there for about 10 seconds, but it was probably only one or two, Shadursky said. Then, all of a sudden, it came at me. I punched it, and it knocked me down. I figured once I was down it was going to jump me, but when I looked up it was heading off toward the lake.
 
25 May. Armed only with a pocket knife, Mary Jane Coder, 41, fought off a mountain lion that repeatedly tried to attack her three daughters, ages 6, 8, and 9, in Big Bend National Park in west Texas. The lion kept trying to "herd out" one of her daughters at a time, but Coder charged at the lion to protect her children, yelled, and waved her knife. The lion wounded her hand, but the family managed to retreat to their car 2 miles down the trail. Source: (Nando News; Reuters News Service; 06/08/98)
 
Tagio said:
25 May. Armed only with a pocket knife, Mary Jane Coder, 41, fought off a mountain lion that repeatedly tried to attack her three daughters, ages 6, 8, and 9, in Big Bend National Park in west Texas. The lion kept trying to "herd out" one of her daughters at a time, but Coder charged at the lion to protect her children, yelled, and waved her knife. The lion wounded her hand, but the family managed to retreat to their car 2 miles down the trail. Source: (Nando News; Reuters News Service; 06/08/98)
Thats one tough bitch.
 
Have any of uou looked at the pics of a mule killing a mountain lion? It basically flips it around and stomps on it til it is no more. Makes one look at mules in a whole diffferent light. P>S. I live in an area with alot of mountain lions and they are unlikely to attack an adult male. They are, however much more likely to attack an ovulating woman. That's fucking stupid, that cougar doesn't want any part of my lady when she's on the rag
 
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