Does having a trainer make you lazy?

[SteelWeaver]

If you work like a wild animal on the days you work with a trainer, do you find yourself slacking off slightly on the other days?

I'm finding that when I train with my trainer, I'm so psyched that I'm smashing through pain barriers I didn't even know existed, but on days not with her I'm not pushing myself in as driven a manner as I used to alone. I mean, of course I'm still training intensely, but either it just doesn't SEEM as intense as it used to, in comparison, or it simply isn't. This may be a good thing, since if I had to train the way I am with her and then still push myself as hard as I used to, I'd probably crash, but it's sort of mentally disconcerting. Anyone experience this?

 

[velvett]

I would love to have a trainer.

Years ago when I had a skating coach there were times of great slacking but a lesson was always the fastest way to snap you out of it and motivate yourself.

 

[The Shadow]

A GOOD trainer will make you work harder and accomplish more than you ever thought possible.

A BAD trainer will allow you to be complacent and take your money as well.

 

[The Shadow]

.

 

[monstertruck]

Agreed, Corn.

 

[SteelWeaver]

A GOOD trainer will make you work harder and accomplish more than you ever thought possible.

Yes, that's exactly what she's doing - she's fucking brilliant. I'm achieving levels of intensity with her that simply can't happen training alone - like training to concentric failure, then having her help with a few forced reps, then resisting for dear life on the negative while she pushes down on the bar or whatever. I've never been able to get to complete eccentric failure before, simply because of the logisitics of it. WOW! And of course she's teaching me a bunch of other techniques as well.

I'm more motivated than I've ever been. If I was driven before, I'm obsessed now, heh he. I can't WAIT to get in the gym and train. I wish I could train every day. I'm so fired up I'm in a constant cloud of pure pleasure and excitement.

I'm just wondering if I'm slacking on the days I DON'T work with my trainer. It's so intense with her, it seems so much less intense on my own.

 

[Sassy69]

Before you worry about maintaining that intensity, I guess it depends on how often you work with her and how often you work without her. If your schedule is partially w/ her and partially on your own, then you are slightly limited on those days you don't have her because you don't have a dedicated spotter to support you. If you work with her all the time, then days that you aren't with her you might need to take as lighter days or off days anyway - depends on what your schedule w/ her is.

I trained w/ one guy 2 days on/ 1 day off for 3 months -- never worked so hard in my life -- I was pushing more weight and more reps than most of his guy clients. HOWEVER I also developed some wonderfully crippling tendonitis. Aside from that, I couldn't do a day on my own if I wanted to because I needed that day off for recovery and also a large part of my training was dependent on having somene there to spot me.

Personally I prefer to get the guidance of a trainer, but to learn to seek my own limits on my own. Since I generally don't get to work with a trainer I really need to pay attention to what I can do pushing it, but pushing safely. Also watching my form that I know I'm doing what feels right and doesn't end up hurting me just because some trainer is pushing me and tells me I'm a wuss if I can't finish out that last set of reps.

Ultimately I think you don't want to become dependent on a trainer - instead use a trainer to enhance and guide what you already do. Its still up to you to maintain the intensity because your trainer can't always be there.

 

[The Shadow]

I'm just wondering if I'm slacking on the days I DON'T work with my trainer. It's so intense with her, it seems so much less intense on my own.

Are you hitting the same rep/weight/set scheme when you train w/o her??

If so, it's just in your head...



If not...find a spotter in the gym to help with extended sets and forced reps etc.



btw - IMHO a trainer should not necessarily have you do these extra streesful training techniques...I think training to failure is intense enough for growth....remember harder is not better - better is better.

 

[goldeneye]

I have been seeing my trainer 3 times a week for 6mths now and see a HUGE difference on the days that I do not see him. I have also made some great changes as far as strength goes and have made improvements on weak bodyparts. But I have been wondering what things will be like when I no longer have him to rely on. I lift much harder then when I am on my own.....

 

[SteelWeaver]

Do you mean concentric failure? Or absolute failure - which is the same as eccentric failure, right? I've only had a few sessions with her so far, so I don't know if we'll always go so far with the set extension techniques, but she doesn't send every single set to absolute failure. I kinda like training that way, though - I'm understanding now how people can be toasted after (what I thought was) the minimal number of sets respected folks on these boards recommend. Remember the big long thread I had a while back about short intense sessions?

As for the same rep/weight/set scheme w/o her - well, no, because a forced rep can't really be done without a partner, nor can negatives. I often end up using MORE weight, especially on the second or third sets, because I can't get the same intense burn/failure without a partner on the first set. I throw in drop sets or rest-pause when I feel like it. I often get gym staff to help with forced reps. But it's not the same going and getting someone who's just browsing around, compared to having someone who is rapidly becoming intimately acquainted with exactly how strong I am, when I'm likely to fail, how far I'm capable of pushing myself, how far she can goad me after that, or when she should just leave me be if I can't finish.

"remember harder is not better - better is better" - sigh. I don't understand Corn When I put up the thread about short intense sessions, and most people said I was overtraining on volume, I dropped the volume, and increased these types of techniques to compensate, but now you say that's not necessarily best? What is BETTER, then? If longer is not better, and harder is not better, then what is better? Of course I know what is BEST - that would be what I discover through months/years of trial and error to be fitting for ME ...

I do 2 days a week with her and 2 on my own (can't afford more ) Maybe being a little less intense (instead of framing it as slacking) on my days NOT with her is actually a good idea. Guess I'll go with it for a little while and see if I start bursting out of my shirt like the Incredible Hulkess, lol

 

[The Shadow]

that, or when she should just leave me be if I can't finish.

"remember harder is not better - better is better" - sigh. I don't understand Corn When I put up the thread about short intense sessions, and most people said I was overtraining on volume, I dropped the volume, and increased these types of techniques to compensate, but now you say that's not necessarily best? What is BETTER, then? If longer is not better, and harder is not better, then what is better? Of course I know what is BEST - that would be what I discover through months/years of trial and error to be fitting for ME ...

Intensity is a learned technique - sounds like you and the trainer go above and beyond intense.
My point is this - you WILL RAPIDLY lose size and strength unless the intensity techniques are kept to a minimum......

Training to a little shy of failure to failure should be the goal 80% of the time.....

...think of someone who wants a tan...staying white represents too little intensity...too much equals a burn.


I guess I am saying it is just as easy to over train as under train

 

[wilson6]

"My point is this - you WILL RAPIDLY lose size and strength unless the intensity techniques are kept to a minimum...... "

Glad to hear that someone else who knows their shit thinks this way as well.

A good trainer knows when to push you and when to hold you back. Many think that having a trainer means getting your ass kicked week in and week out. If that is what your trainer believes in, then get another trainer or you'll be burned out inside of a couple of months.

W6

 

[The Shadow]

....word.

 

[MS]

The Gospel according to Corn. Amen.

The best 'trainer' is a training partner with similar goals and commitment. Training without a training partner is like cooking a candle-lit dinner for one IMHO.

Having a training partner does not prevent (both of) you from enlisting the help of a "trainer" from time to time to learn new techniques, make new training programs etc....But to use a hired trainer as a replacemnt for a good training partner is costly and still doesn't give you the support/spotting and encouragement that you need every training session.

 

[wilson6]

"But to use a hired trainer as a replacemnt for a good training partner is costly and still doesn't give you the support/spotting and encouragement that you need every training session."

Don't agree with the second part.

W6

 

[MS]

Apologies Wilson6, I was actually referring to something more inutitive/touchy-feely than anything in your physiology textbooks. After several decades hitting the weights, it is easy to get slack, miss workouts and generally lose your focus. A good training partner puts just enough pressure (and encouragement) to get you to the gym and continue to push yourself years after the initial infatuation with bodybuilding has worn off. And of course they are also there to spot you on the odd occasion when you DO feel like training to concentric failure and beyond.

Technically I acknowledge that self motivation is enough to get you through most sessions, especially if you are training sensibly and not max-ing out constantly. But psychologically it gets boring and pretty unmotivating over the years. However, SteelWeaver (and most folks on this board) is clearly a long way from the psychological 'need' for a training partner. The majority of personal trainers I see have clients that are purely using them as hired training partners. If you have the money and that's what you want out of your trainer then fine! But if you just want someone to spot you, tell you you're making good progress and make sure you show up for a session regularly, then a training partner is a much economical and satisfying in the long run.

 

[italianbabe]

by any chance does any1 know a great trainer in the nyc area im in the bronx..thnx

 

[SteelWeaver]

OK, well I'm not out there to get my ass kicked every week, no - I'm perfectly capable of kicking my own ass if need be.

I hired this woman initially because I badly needed someone to help me through the last weeks of my contest prep., with posing practice, routine polishing, etc. She was recommended by my gym staff. Then I found out that she happens to be a pro, who has competed for the last decade or so at the highest levels of FBB, and we also developed an intuitive rapport very quickly. Sure I know just because someone's a pro doesn't mean they're a great trainer, but this one definitely knows her shit, and she doesn't push me past where I can't go. If I tell her I need to stop a set because of the wrong kind of pain, she accepts that just fine. That's only happened once though, and it was because I foolishly did deadlifts the day before leg day.

Since the advice I get here and in all my textbooks is often contradictory, confusing, inadequate and unsatisfactory, I decided to keep her on for a couple of months in order to learn as much as I possibly can in a practical sense. Everything I've learnt has been from books and Elite and just trying stuff myself. I need PRACTICAL help. She is helping me to develop perfect form, teaching me how to target exactly the muscle I'm aiming for, showing me different techniques, different moves, etc, etc. Eg. I've finally learnt how to contract my lats properly. She's also helping me get over some of my resistance to certain moves - you know how there are certain exercises or ways of working one avoids just because you don't like them? And, of course, she is helping me reach new levels of intensity.

Anyway, my original question here is more to do with developing too much reliance on a trainer I guess ... I don't want to end up not able to generate enough intensity on my own because I've become too dependent on a trainer. Believe me - if I start shrinking, I'll be making changes quickly. For now, though, I can't believe how lucky I was to stumble upon this woman - she's totally amazing.

I have a bit of a bone to pick here, though - on the short intense thread I put up back a while ago, Realgains said he could put me through 3 sets of squats and I'd be toast - wouldn't want to or be able to do any more. Now when I turn up and say that my intensity is at a level where quads are toast in 6 - 8 sets or so, folks are saying it's too intense. On the CNS thread W6 says to train to absolute momentary failure, but now Corn says shy of failure is fine ...

See why I need a trainer

Anyway, would be interested to hear more views here ....

 

[spiderwoman]

Everybody has an opinion.
Everyday I go to the gym I see this guy with his paid trainer, seems like, for maybe a coupla years now. I see all the cash he's doling out and I thank god I am NOT. I think having a trainer for a few sessions every now and again is great for new ideas/motivation, just like changing your workout. But, to be dependent on your trainer is silly as a trainer does not know you as well you know yourself, and has biases and limitations. The first time your trainer/training partner misses a workout, you may be screwed and end up having a crappy workout.
Trainer$$$ LOVE it if you're dependent on them. Keep that in mind.
this is just my humble opinion

 

[grlpwrd]

Maybe you just like the idea of having a dominatrix. I'm kidding, of course. Maybe it's just a gender thing. If you have a personal trainer of the opposite sex maybe you try harder. I know it is that way with my hubby. When he trains me I feel compelled to show him how strong I am.

I see it in the gym, too. Ladies will work out harder if they have a fine looking trainer...or it could just be in my imagination...

 

[The Shadow]

On the CNS thread W6 says to train to absolute momentary failure, but now Corn says shy of failure is fine ...

Consider that training for strength is usually best short of failure and size is usually best carried to failure......

I said a rep short of failure most of the time - not all.

btw - "6-8 sets and my quads are toast"

What I said was prolonged training techniques(forced reps negatives etc) at EVERY workout will kill you.

I do around 8 sets for quads and I can't walk without pain for 2 days...I simply go close to failure on the squats and to failure on the other exercises.

I think you are making a huge deal over nothing. If you are feeling good and looking forward to the workouts and are able to increase weight or reps from session to session - then obviously you ARE recovering and ARE training hard enough to promote gains.

End of story.


BTW - I do WILL NOT train a client for more than 8 weeks unless she has unique circumstances as after this period of time they knoe the basics of training nutrition and how to set up their own programs.

If you are still relient on a trainer beyond this period of time...then the trainer IMHO did not do his/her job very well.

 

[The Shadow]

Agreed MS - that was not directed at you in any way.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Hey ... relax, Corn ... I'm not making a huge deal - I was just asking a question. I just wanted to know what other people's experiences are with having a trainer. It's my first time ever to even train with someone who knows what they're doing, so it's all new and fun. I'm only going to be working with her for 8 weeks because I'm leaving the country after that anyway. Then I'm going to do WSB

I'm going to go do a search on failure now, but in the meantime, can you clarify what you mean by failure? Concentric failure?

 

[The Shadow]

Hey ... relax, Corn ... , can you clarify what you mean by failure? Concentric failure?

I'm sorry??

Relax??

Me??

Okay.......

Failure is normally defined to mean concentric failure.......that's why forced reps and negatives are considered intensity techniques

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thank you

That's what I found in my search. OK, so when W6 says absolute momentary failure, he means concentric failure, correct?

This is what I'm going to do: do the intensity techniques with my trainer, maybe not on every session with her ... we'll see how I'm recovering ... and "slack off" when on my own, going almost to failure on some sets and to failure on the rest, no drop sets, forced, etc. And see how I grow ...

What do you think?

 

[The Shadow]

I believe that is what W6 means, yes.

Sounds like a plan Sweets.

Just make sure that when you train with her that you are not hammering the same bodypart(s) past failure time after time...make sure that every bodypart gets some of the intensity stuff in other words

 

[SteelWeaver]

Cool. Thanks. Yeah - I kind of set it up from the beginning so that, with 2 sessions with her per week, I'd be hitting each bodypart with her once every 2 weeks. Some sessions with her are pretty light though - esp. back, because I'm still having trouble getting exact form down for a full contraction in my lats. I think back is going to be my main focus for the next couple of months, while I have her to help.

Think there'd be any point in doing speed sets on the days I don't work with her? Speed sets on the compound moves and the usual 8-10 to failure on assistance type moves? Can one mix it up like this in a single session? Just interested in trying out different stuff at the moment - I don't have any deadlines anymore for a while. Just want to play and learn and see what makes me grow.

 

[The Shadow]

Speed sets are fine as I feel they build explosive strength...I mix WBS and tyraditional BBing at every workout....


Tip on lats:

1 - use an overhand grip whenever possible

2 - when doing seated rows....pinch shoulder baldes together in back before you begin the concentric

3 - have you trainer practice "cupping" or "tracing" on your lats WHILE you are doing the movements - really helps mind/muscle link

4- work entire ROM for lats - ie - pullover movement, chins/pulldowns, stiff-arm pullovers

5 - ROM for midback - rope behind neck pulldowns, one arm rows with elbow at 90 angle to body, bent laterals

 

[SteelWeaver]

Chest UP! Shoulders DOWN! This is her mantra. Shoulders down and back. We spent a long time on lat pull downs the other day, wokring on moving the actual shoulder girdle, thus minimising arm work almost completely. I've had a real problem getting pull downs right because, although I was trying to pull from the lats, I wasn't actually working with my shoulder girdle, and ended up using more delt and arm than I shoiuld have.

Anyway, I've got it down now - I did back this morning on my own, and my god! did I have a PUMP in my back by the time I finished! That's a rare thing - hopefully it'll come more often from now.

"3 - have you trainer practice "cupping" or "tracing" on your lats WHILE you are doing the movements - really helps mind/muscle link"

Yes, she does this, but sometimes it's distracting because I get turned on instead of concentrating properly, lol! I'm really bad at being touched by people I admire or like, heh heh. Whatever, though - it seems to be working.

So pullovers are OK, then - I thought they'd been relegated to the same camp as tricep db kickbacks?

 

[The Shadow]

So pullovers are OK, then - I thought they'd been relegated to the same camp as tricep db kickbacks?

If you want full ROM development in lats and tris you should do both.

 

[SteelWeaver]

If you want full ROM development in lats and tris you should do both.

Really? Why do so many people spurn them as silly, useless exercises? Because they don't aid much in pure strength development? Would you use them in a mass-building phase? How come almost everyone at elite preaches the gospel of basic compound moves and turn their noses up at the above types of moves? I realise one needs a mix of moves for full development, but .... tricep kickbacks?

Pullovers - cool - I like these. What about straight-arm pulldowns?

I personally prefer the compound moves because isolation-type moves bore me - with compounds I can put all of me into the move ... FULL concentration. It's easy to let your mind wander on smaller moves.

 

[The Shadow]

with compounds I can put all of me into the move ... FULL concentration. It's easy to let your mind wander on smaller moves.

...interesting that you would say that you mind wanders on isolations moves.....much less to think about.

Bottom line is this:

ANY movement, if done correctly, and with sufficient weight WILL make you stronger....period.


Read up on the theory of POF.

Each muscles has three positions a midrange, a stretch and a contracted......

You do lateral raises for delts...that is a contracted position, just like a kickback is....what would possibly be the reasoning to do one but not the other?

Other contracted exercises:

Cable crossovers
concentration curls
leg curls
leg extensions.....


....how many of those do you normally do in your workouts??

Most, if not all I would imagine.

 

[SteelWeaver]

OK, I confess - I've just come to the end of a subscription to Ironman, (they have interesting research briefs, lol) and I usually read the "Train, Eat, Grow" POF articles in there - so I know what it is and have sometimes incorporated some of those ideas into my workouts. Haven't tried post-activation yet, but am getting there. There's so much to try

But since coming to Elite I've spent most of my time on heavy compound moves, because of the emphasis on them here. I do think that's a good thing, since I'm still in the process of building a base, but I guess just leaving out a whole class of moves isn't a terribly good idea.

Don't you find when you don't have to apply full concentration that it's easier to let other thoughts distract you? Since you have a big roomy space left free in your brain over and above the small bit you're using?

Of the moves you listed, the only one I do with any regularity is leg curls, although I always do one of: glute-ham raises/SLDL's/GM's first. Doing a lot more leg extensions lately since my trainer likes them. Haven't done the other two for about a year, but I do flyes - same sort of thing, yeah?

How often do you mix up your exercises, Corn?

 

[The Shadow]

OK, I confess - I've just come to the end of a subscription to Ironman, (they have interesting research briefs, lol) and I usually read the "Train, Eat, Grow" POF articles in there - so I know what it is and have sometimes incorporated some of those ideas into my workouts. Haven't tried post-activation yet, but am getting there. There's so much to try

But since coming to Elite I've spent most of my time on heavy compound moves, because of the emphasis on them here. I do think that's a good thing, since I'm still in the process of building a base, but I guess just leaving out a whole class of moves isn't a terribly good idea.

Don't you find when you don't have to apply full concentration that it's easier to let other thoughts distract you? Since you have a big roomy space left free in your brain over and above the small bit you're using?

Of the moves you listed, the only one I do with any regularity is leg curls, although I always do one of: glute-ham raises/SLDL's/GM's first. Doing a lot more leg extensions lately since my trainer likes them. Haven't done the other two for about a year, but I do flyes - same sort of thing, yeah?

How often do you mix up your exercises, Corn?

Honestly it doesn't matter what exercise Im doing....it get 100% of my effort and concentration....I feel that I get a better response form doing "isolation" movements like those I listed above....with exercises like squats I'm constantly thinking about form etc rather than feeling the muscle work.

Flyes are actuallt a stretch postition but stretches are a very important tangent for growth as thry stretch the fascail muscle sheath that surrounds the muscle and also allow for more fibers to be recruited via the myotatic response.

I never ever do the same w/o for a muscle group back to back.
It doesn't mean that I do different exercises at every w.o - just thgat the order might be different, drop set here and there etc.