caffeine pre-workout while bulking???

[wonderstanding]

started a winter bulking phase recently... no caffeine at any time... that combined with all this food has me feeling somewhat lethargic. and intensity seems to be lagging a little under the weights. my weights have gone up a little and I look and feel a little fuller, but it feels strange not having that caffeine induced, dripping sweat, adrenal frenzy going on at the gym... I realize laying around and sleeping is good for bulking, but wouldn't mind some intensity under the weights...

looking to weigh the pros and cons of taking a good hit of caffeine pre-workout. no other time. from a diet/bulking standpoint. I know it'll help intensity/stamina in the gym. wondering what it's going to do outside the gym...

thanks,

Forrest

 

[Mr.X]

started a winter bulking phase recently... no caffeine at any time... that combined with all this food has me feeling somewhat lethargic. and intensity seems to be lagging a little under the weights. my weights have gone up a little and I look and feel a little fuller, but it feels strange not having that caffeine induced, dripping sweat, adrenal frenzy going on at the gym... I realize laying around and sleeping is good for bulking, but wouldn't mind some intensity under the weights...

looking to weigh the pros and cons of taking a good hit of caffeine pre-workout. no other time. from a diet/bulking standpoint. I know it'll help intensity/stamina in the gym. wondering what it's going to do outside the gym...

thanks,

Forrest

Why not just add ECA to your pre-workout? Caffeine is fine, there is not harm, plus w/ the bulking phase--if the workouts are not intense muscle gain is going to be minimal.

Mr.X

 

[fr34kn1k]

Doesn't caffeine pull water out of the muscles?

 

[wonderstanding]

I'm taking creatine so it might not pull too much water from the muscles, but that's the kind of stuff I'm weighing... looking for the point of diminishing returns...

I LOVE how easily I get to sleep at night... caffeine seems to throw my sleep schedule off, even if I have it 6+hrs before bed.

and actually when I think about it, I'm able to get my intensity up before a set by just sitting and psyching myself, but I'm resting longer between sets and I'm not drenched in sweat. there just isn't that heart pounding intensity throughout the ENTIRE workout...

hmmm...

 

[Mr.X]

Doesn't caffeine pull water out of the muscles?

Ok, I have to put that in my book.....

NO IT DOES NOT! lol....that being said, this is going to become the next bodybuilding myth

Mr.X

 

[prophet]

caffine is good before you workout it helps the body release more glucose for energy.

 

[Lumberg]

Caffeine negates the effects of creatine....both work through altering the calcium balance in your cells.....but in opposite ways.

You are wasting the creatine if you use caffeine.

JC

 

[fr34kn1k]

Caffeine negates the effects of creatine....both work through altering the calcium balance in your cells.....but in opposite ways.

You are wasting the creatine if you use caffeine.

JC

I've looked for evidence to this effect online, but I can't find. Can you please provide some sources and references for this info. Thanks!

 

[_jaap_]

btw what do u think of the insuline desensitizing effect of caffeine on insuline mr.x. ?

 

[Mr.X]

btw what do u think of the insuline desensitizing effect of caffeine on insuline mr.x. ?

THat would be a MYTH, I've never seen a study to back that statement up. If someone can show me one, I'll go for it. It's mainly a nerveous system stimulant/downregulator.

Mr.X

 

[bdog527]

THat would be a MYTH, I've never seen a study to back that statement up. If someone can show me one, I'll go for it. It's mainly a nerveous system stimulant/downregulator.

Mr.X

There are a couple of studies that show a decreased glucose uptake after ingestion of caffiene. I'll dig them up.

What I would be curious to know is if it is in muscle and fat cells or fat cells only.

 

[_jaap_]

one such study

Caffeine-induced impairment of glucose tolerance is abolished by -adrenergic receptor blockade in humans
Farah S. L. Thong and Terry E. Graham
Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1

The caffeine-induced impairment of insulin action is commonly attributed to adenosine receptor (AR) antagonism in skeletal muscle. However, epinephrine, a potent inhibitor of insulin actions, is increased after caffeine ingestion. We tested the hypothesis that the insulin antagonistic effects of caffeine are mediated by epinephrine, and not by AR antagonism, in seven healthy men. On four separate occasions, they received 1) dextrose (placebo, PL), 2) 5 mg/kg caffeine (CAF), 3) 80 mg of propranolol (PR), and 4) 5 mg/kg caffeine + 80 mg of propranolol (CAF + PR) before an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT). Blood glucose was similar among trials before and during the OGTT. Plasma epinephrine was elevated (P < 0.05) in CAF and CAF + PR. Areas under the insulin and C-peptide curves were 42 and 39% greater (P < 0.05), respectively, in CAF than in PL, PR, and CAF + PR. In the presence of propranolol (CAF + PR), these responses were similar to PL and PR. These data suggest that the insulin antagonistic effects of caffeine in vivo are mediated by elevated epinephrine rather than by peripheral AR antagonism.

note that in this study they took the insuline impairment as a given. Which means this theory has at LEAST some proliferation among the medical community.
There are actually a lot of studies which i saw, but im too lazy to dig em all up so i just posted one.

But this one is particulary interesting cause as u said caffeine is a nervous system stimulant (among others increased epinephrine release) which seems to be the cause of the effect of insuline.

 

[_jaap_]

If you want the full text the abstract was taken from JAP btw.

 

[Mr.X]

READ THE STUDY FIRST, BEFORE YOU POST IT

Caffeine-induced impairment of glucose tolerance is abolished by -adrenergic receptor blockade in humans
Farah S. L. Thong and Terry E. Graham
Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1
***************
FIRST NOTE: THIS STUDY WAS DONE IN CANADA...I WENT THROUGH MY Ph.D MANUAL AND TRIED TO LOOK UP Farah S. L. Thong AND Terry E. Graham....NOTHING CAME UP! IF THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO STUDIES, THEY ARE A WASTE OF TIME TO READ...BUT I'LL GO ON

The caffeine-induced impairment of insulin action is commonly attributed to adenosine receptor (AR) antagonism in skeletal muscle.
******************
COMMONLY ATTRIBUTED, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TRUE

However, epinephrine, a potent inhibitor of insulin actions, is increased after caffeine ingestion.
******************
THIS IS ONLY TRUE IN SOME USERS; IN OTHERS, THAT HAVE USED CAFFEINE FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME. EPINEPHRINE ACTIONS ARE NON-EXISTANT

We tested the hypothesis thatthe insulin antagonistic effects of caffeineare mediated by epinephrine, and not by AR antagonism,
******************************
EARTH TO _JAAP_.....THEY TESTED THE HYPOTHESIS, IT DOES NOT MEAN IT'S TRUE KEY WORK: HYPOTHESIS

in seven healthy men.
*************
WEIGHT? AGE? EXPERIENCE W/ CAFFEIN? NOT ENOUGH VARIABLES!!!

On four separate occasions, they received 1) dextrose (placebo, PL),
DEXTROSE AS A PLACEBO? WHY? IDIOTIC

2) 5 mg/kg caffeine (CAF),
*********
JESUS, THEY GAVE THESE PEOPLE (AVR 200LB MALE AS AN EXAMPLE) WHAT AROUND 500MG CAFFEINE, OF COURSE YOUR SYSTEM IS GOING TO RESPOND DIFFERENTLY, ESPECIALLY FOR FIRST TIME USERS

3) 80 mg of propranolol (PR), and 4) 5 mg/kg caffeine + 80 mg of propranolol (CAF + PR) before an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT). Blood glucose was similar among trials before and during the OGTT. Plasma epinephrine was elevated (P < 0.05) in CAF and CAF + PR. Areas under the insulin and C-peptide curves were 42 and 39% greater (P < 0.05),
************
THEY HAVE VAGUE WORDING HERE, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE LEVELS ARE ONLY 3% OFF, WHICH IS NOTHING, CONSIDERING MOST STUDIES HAVE A FAILSAFE 1-10% MARGIN

respectively, in CAF than in PL, PR, and CAF + PR. In the presence of propranolol (CAF + PR), these responses were similar to PL and PR. These data suggest that the insulin antagonistic effects of caffeine in vivo are mediated by elevated epinephrine rather than by peripheral AR antagonism.
********************
SO WHAT? THIS THEORY PROVES NOTHING; CAN WE SAY THE GLUCOSE KREB CYCLE WAS DISRUPTED IN SOME WAY! WERE THE MEN W/ AN EMPTY STOMACH WHEN THEY DID THIS! TOO MANY THINGS NOT SHOWN

note that in this study they took the insuline impairment as a given. Which means this theory has at LEAST some proliferation among the medical community.
There are actually a lot of studies which i saw, but im too lazy to dig em all up so i just posted one.
JUST BECAUSE IT'S SAYING THAT, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S "LEAST" TRUE; I CAN MAKE A STUDY SAYING YOUR NOSE GROWS FROM LYING AND MEASURE NOSE GROWTH IN CHILDREN FROM THE AGE OF 4-10, OF COURSE THEIR NOSES WILL GROW....THESE ARE SUCH PRE-MEDSCHOOL ASSUMPTIONS

But this one is particulary interesting cause as u said caffeine is a nervous system stimulant (among others increased epinephrine release) which seems to be the cause of the effect of insuline.
THEORY, NOT STUDY


I guess in first time users, one can say it have a little bit of a "desensitizing" effect, but it's over-ruled by the stimulatory effect.

Mr.X

 

[Lumberg]

I've looked for evidence to this effect online, but I can't find. Can you please provide some sources and references for this info. Thanks!

try a search on here of caffeine and creatine. I tried but the board locked up on me.

JC

 

[WarriorPL]

What kind of caffeine would be best to take before a workout?
caffeine pills, coffee, redbull? What's a good ammount and source?

 

[bignkc22]

I pulled this off the net a few min ago so check it out




"Hey, don’t worry! Grab a double Kenyan-mocha, non-fat frappachino, sit down and relax while I tell you the facts behind this little charade.

Did you know way back when creatine was initially researched, most of it’s benefits were proven when mixed in warm coffee or tea! Back then, about 7 years ago, a warm liquid was needed to dissolve the creatine because the creatine was like, well…. sand! No micronized creatine back then!

The early literature by Paul Greenhaff and Alison Green often stated the creatine was best consumed in coffee or tea and obviously, still with good results. However, about 5 years ago researchers in Belgium gave subjects a daily 500mg/kg-bodyweight dose, that’s a whopping 36-45gms a day! Half of the subjects consumed the creatine with caffine and the other half without. Both groups showed modest increases in muscle creatine accumulation via 3IP-magnetic resonance spectroscopy (similar to an MRI). However, when tested, only the non-caffeine fed creatine group improved exercise performance, so the researchers suggested caffeine blocks the ergogenic effects of creatine.

Now the muscle loading effects of creatine in this study only showd 4-6% increases in both groups. This was no-where near Greenhaff’s work where he repeatedly showed muscular creatine increases of around 20%. The sort of dosages used in the Belgium study should have produced much higher muscle creatine increases.Therefore I suspect something in that study was definitely not "kosher".

Caffeine was investigated with creatine as it was suspected it might stimulate creatine transport similar to that of adrenaline. Caffeine increases circulating adrenaline concentrations. This study was based on lab dish results with clenbuterol (same pharmological family as caffeine) that showd clen stimulated creatine uptake. Since then, invivo (within the living body) results have dmonstrated clenbuterol actually reduces muscle creatine content. It reduces muscle creatine stores and increases blood creatine levels. Not an ideal creating loading environment.

While initial creatine research showed results when taking caffeine or coffee with creatine, this does not mean it may be the most effective way to take creatine. The only molecule proven so far to interact with creatine in humans (positively or negatively) is glucose. By drinking a larger serve of simple carbohydrates (research indicates approx. 90gms ) with your creatine directly after workouts dramatically increases creatine accumulation within muscle, maximizing results!"

 

[Mr.X]

What kind of caffeine would be best to take before a workout?
caffeine pills, coffee, redbull? What's a good ammount and source?

Redbull is garbage, just get a cup of water add some cool aid and 100 tbsp. of sugar and you have red bull.

I would take caffeine pills and/or coffee, a good amount is around 100-200mg w/ 1 pill (80) of baby aspirin.

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

FIRST, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO W/ THE ARGUMENT AT HAND, IT'S USELESS INFORMATION BY A JOE NOBODY

"Hey, don’t worry! Grab a double Kenyan-mocha, non-fat frappachino, sit down and relax while I tell you the facts behind this little charade.
********
OH NO! I'M SCARED

Did you know way back when creatine was initially researched, most of it’s benefits were proven when mixed in warm coffee or tea! Back then, about 7 years ago, a warm liquid was needed to dissolve the creatine because the creatine was like, well…. sand! No micronized creatine back then!
**************
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DISSOLVE CREATINE TO DRINK IT, MOST MONOHYDRATE STILL FLOATS AROUND IN THE WATER WHILE YOU GULP IT DOWN; WHAT A BLANKET STATEMENT

The early literature by Paul Greenhaff and Alison Green often stated the creatine was best consumed in coffee or tea and obviously, still with good results. However, about 5 years ago researchers in Belgium gave subjects a daily 500mg/kg-bodyweight dose, that’s a whopping 36-45gms a day! Half of the subjects consumed the creatine with caffine and the other half without. Both groups showed modest increases in muscle creatine accumulation via 3IP-magnetic resonance spectroscopy (similar to an MRI). However, when tested, only the non-caffeine fed creatine group improved exercise performance, so the researchers suggested caffeine blocks the ergogenic effects of creatine.
*******************
IMPROVED EXERCISE PERFORMANCE? WHAT THE HECK IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN? THEY COULD DO 11 REPS INSTED OF 10.5, THEY COULD RUN 11.5 YARDS INSTEAD OF 11. I MEAN GIVE ME A BREAK, AN MRI TO SHOW MUCH CREATINE HAS ACCUMILATED....HOW ABOUT THE FOOD INTAKE, MIGHT THAT HAVE CREATINE IN IT: YES!

Now the muscle loading effects of creatine in this study only showd 4-6% increases in both groups. This was no-where near Greenhaff’s work where he repeatedly showed muscular creatine increases of around 20%. The sort of dosages used in the Belgium study should have produced much higher muscle creatine increases.Therefore I suspect something in that study was definitely not "kosher".
*********************
GREENHAFF WAS FULL OF ASSUMPTIONS, AND THERE IS ONLY "kosher" PROBLEMS IF THE GUY PROVIDES THE STUDY, WHICH HE DOESN'T

Caffeine was investigated with creatine as it was suspected it might stimulate creatine transport similar to that of adrenaline.
THAT'S NEWS, CREATINE TRANSPORTED BY ADRENALINE I'M STARTING TO SUSPECT THAT THIS GUY HAS NO! IDEA OF WHAT HE'S SAYING

Caffeine increases circulating adrenaline concentrations. This study was based on lab dish results with clenbuterol (same pharmological family as caffeine) that showd clen stimulated creatine uptake. Since then, invivo (within the living body) results have dmonstrated clenbuterol actually reduces muscle creatine content. It reduces muscle creatine stores and increases blood creatine levels. Not an ideal creating loading environment.
***********
CLENBUTEROL IS MORE CLOSELY RELATED TO EPHEDRINE NOT CAFFEIN, THIS GUY IS A TOOL

While initial creatine research showed results when taking caffeine or coffee with creatine, this does not mean it may be the most effective way to take creatine. The only molecule proven so far to interact with creatine in humans (positively or negatively) is glucose. By drinking a larger serve of simple carbohydrates (research indicates approx. 90gms ) with your creatine directly after workouts dramatically increases creatine accumulation within muscle, maximizing results!"
****************
SO WHAT!!! IS THIS STUDY 10 YEARS OLD, WE ALL KNOW THAT INSULIN IS THE BEST TRANSPORT SYSTEM FOLLOWED BY LOWER INTESTINE.......

overall I thought the claims made by the author, no matter what they were, lost the ability to show any reasoning because the author is discredited when he makes false statements

EVERYONE, DON'T EAT FAT W/ A CRETINE DRINK; NOW THAT I'VE GIVEN A THEORY, I'LL GO OUT AND WRITE A USELESS ARTICLE ABOUT IT

Mr.X

 

[WarriorPL]

bignkc22, it's a garbage post like yours that misleads many people, especially beginners.

BTW.. thanks a lot Mr. X

 

[FarBeyondDriven]

Mr. X, isn't caffiene considered like a diuretic? Which would mean that it would dehydrate the body. Causing the destruction of water soluble vitamins. Dehydration would mean that the extra water that Creatine is suppose to be holding would not be there?

I'm not sure, but this has always been assumptions of mine and things I have heard.

 

[bbkingpin]

Caffeine negates the effects of creatine....both work through altering the calcium balance in your cells.....but in opposite ways.

You are wasting the creatine if you use caffeine.

JC

I remember first reading this years ago in MM2K. I have found it to be true. But I read and I found that it diminishes the strength gain from creatine but not the muscle fullness. That's what I remember reading. And, yes, a lot of caffeine will negate the strength gains from creatine. However, I found that a little caffeine -- 200-400mg -- prior to a workout did not hinder my strength gains very much, if at all. But assuming you are lifting 3-4x/week then that is caffeine only 3-4x/week. I would even drink less caffeine, saving it instead for the really intense workouts -- e.g., Legs! So, when on creatine, I would avoid caffeine except for pre-workout.

 

[Mr.X]

Mr. X, isn't caffiene considered like a diuretic? Which would mean that it would dehydrate the body. Causing the destruction of water soluble vitamins. Dehydration would mean that the extra water that Creatine is suppose to be holding would not be there?

I'm not sure, but this has always been assumptions of mine and things I have heard.

Yes, you are correct, it is considered a MILK diuretic. However, when something is diuretic it does not mean it "causes destruction of water soluble vitamins". In reality it just makes the kidneys work harder.

I think caffeine, overall, should only be thought of as a synergetic supplement w/ ephedrine/norephedrine etc. I doubt that daily drinking of coffee just because people have a doughnut (the average joe) can amount to anything beneficial. One thing is known for sure, caffeine loses its' potency after a certain amount of time--different for all individuals--, hence the effects of aspirin come into play.

Mr.X