Bravo to Israel for not giving in!!!

[JohnyJuice]

BabyDoc, i like the way you think. But you already knew that, didnt you. It all boils down to this, Ryan and his type are panty wastes. They are worthless, sniveling, homo tree huggers who dont have the balls to do a damn thing. They just talk and talk. When it comes to action, they go and piss their bed.

 

[vinylgroover]

Thebabydoc,

Lets get something straight. September 11 has absolutely no relevance to the Israel-Palestine situation, and i'm getting real tired of your and many others reference to it.

You and most others seem to revel in using September 11 as the moral crutch behind every argument you make to do with the middle east situation.

To equate the Palestinian people with a rag tag bunch of terrorists such as Al Qaeda is way off the mark. The Palestinian people are fighting for what they perceive to be just and fair and not you or anyone else can make a moral judgement on that. Al Qaeda on the other hand are a bunch of cold blooded criminals.

Smarten your act up

 

[Zirakzigil]

Thebabydoc,

Lets get something straight. September 11 has absolutely no relevance to the Israel-Palestine situation, and i'm getting real tired of your and many others reference to it.

You and most others seem to revel in using September 11 as the moral crutch behind every argument you make to do with the middle east situation.

To equate the Palestinian people with a rag tag bunch of terrorists such as Al Qaeda is way off the mark. The Palestinian people are fighting for what they perceive to be just and fair and not you or anyone else can make a moral judgement on that. Al Qaeda on the other hand are a bunch of cold blooded criminals.

Smarten your act up

Wait: do you not believe that Al Qaeda is fighting for what they perceive to be just and fair? Is there any moral difference between the WTC attacks, which intended to kill and to create terror, and the suicide bombings in Israel, which intend to kill and to create terror?

Think again, hot shot. The Palestinian suicide bombers are just as bad as Al Qaeda - only a little less good at their profession.

 

[vinylgroover]

Zirak,

Don't pretend you can't see the difference and don't try and patronise me by calling me hotshot.

Al Qaeda are criminals. Period. They have no moral cause behind their action, much like your regular crim, but obviously on a grander stage. Don't believe the propaganda you here, either from Bin Laden, or your own government.

The Palestinian people are resisting an occupying force, fighting for their freedom and land which was taken from them.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but i don't want to hear shit about equating the Palestinian peoples struggle with Al Qaeda or September 11.

If you can't support your argument without making reference to September 11 or Al Qaeda when it comes to the Palestinian-Israeli situation then don't bother making a point at all

 

[Zirakzigil]

Al Qaeda is fighting what they see as capitalist influence and infidel foreign involvement in their holy land. If you took a step back from the rhetoric and emotion you'd see this. Go to the library and check out some books on the situation - you can't get your current events knowledge solely from CNN and the television - TV tends to gloss over details, and to describe what its audience wants to hear, far more than books do.

Just because I realize what their cause is does not mean I acknowledge their actions as correct.

There is no moral difference between the Palestinians using terror against the Israeli people, and Al Qaeda using it against the USA. You can never morally kill innocent people with the goal of pure terror. Note I am equating the use of terrorist tactics on both sides, not their core causes. Even if I am promoting charity and giving, if I do so through terrorist tactics, my moral high ground = nullified.

I ask again, is there any moral difference between the suicide bomber at the hotel and the WTC attacks? Why or why not? Please answer.

I have a friend who is a Native American. His ancestors used to live off the land in Georgia - now they are on a reservation in New Mexico with a bunch of Navajos they do not consider their brethren. When he was younger and more emotional (and stupid), he considered leading attacks on the citizens of Georgia, to destroy property and to get them back for taking his ancestors' land.

Would that have been moral?

 

[OMEGA]

ignorance makes me sick

 

[vinylgroover]

Firstly, i don't get my facts from TV or cnn or any of that other bullshit, that's why i don't peddle the crap about equating the Israel-Palestine situation with September 11.

Secondly, Al Qaeda is primarily a rag tag group of intellectuals, mercenaries, mis fits and any other social outcast who does not have any meaning or direction in life and turns to that particular group to try and make their mark in society, no different to an LA Gang or a bunch of crims anywhere else in the world, just more lethal and with more means at their disposal. They merely peddle their bullshit on the pretence that they have a meaning for the terror they cause. Case in point. The Australian who was caught fighting with Al Qaeda, he has no religious or political or moral justification, he's simply a mercenary who loves warmongering.

I'm not distinguishing between the terror that is carried out between the groups, far from it, but i take offense when i hear people equating the Palestinian struggle with Al Qaeda and September 11. By the way i'm not Palestinian or Arab, far from it.

Why don't you hear people equate the Palestinian suicide bombers with the IRA or the Tamil Tigers or chechin rebels or......
because it's politically correct and grabs more headlines and support if it's equated with Al Qadea and Septmenber 11, that's why.

To simply boil the whole Arab-israeli conflict down to a cold blooded terrorist act on September 11 is offensive to the Palestinian people and their struggle, and totally misses the real point of what's going on. It simply gives Israel a right of passage to do whatever they want.

 

[Zirakzigil]

First, you are utterly, utterly wrong about Al Qaeda just wanting to make their mark on the world. As Ryan said, I won't argue the facts - they exist, and even if you try to twist them, they still exist and you have not proved them wrong. Go read "Inside Al Qaeda" by Gunaratna, "Clash of Civilizations" by Huntington, or "The Al Qaeda Documents" by Venzke. They have a motive and they have an agenda. They aren't doing this for fun.

Why don't you hear people equate the Palestinian suicide bombers with the IRA or the Tamil Tigers or chechin rebels or......
because it's politically correct and grabs more headlines and support if it's equated with Al Qadea and Septmenber 11, that's why.

This is actually a good point. People in the US are such fucking hypocrites - you NEVER hear about cracking down on the IRA or anything like that, but they are the exact same thing as the Palestinians and Al Qaeda: a terrorist organization based upon a pure motive. You don't hear about the Tamil Tigers because people in the US don't give a shit about brown people in Sri Lanka killing eachother. I totally agree with your point, that linking the Palestinians to Al Qaeda is used for emotional reaction - however that doesn't change the fact that the link is valid. If I said "Bush is EVIL! He wants to drill in the ANWR!! EVIL EVIL EVIL", does that change the fact that he wants to drill in the ANWR? *chuckle* Logic, bro...

To simply boil the whole Arab-israeli conflict down to a cold blooded terrorist act on September 11 is offensive to the Palestinian people and their struggle, and totally misses the real point of what's going on. It simply gives Israel a right of passage to do whatever they want.

Who's boiling it down? I believe if you look above all you'll find I said was that the Palestinian terrorists and the Al Qaeda terrorists are morally the same: horrendous. I even said Note I am equating the use of terrorist tactics on both sides, not their core causes..

Anyway, it sounds like I am agreeing with you on all points but one.

- we agree that the Palestinians have a valid cause
- we agree that terrorism in all forms is to be abhorred

The thing we don't agree on is the motivation of Al Qaeda.

They are not, in general, racists.
They are fundamentalist Muslims.
They take a far harder line towards infidels than mainstream and normative Islam.
They believe that western-style capitalism has caused many of the problems that their countries face.
They believe that imperialism has caused many of the problems that their countries face.
They believe that the US, a nation of infidels, having a strong interest in, and even control over, Saudi Arabia is sacrilege.
They did not surface at 9/11: they've been active for around 9-12 years now.


Since 9/11 I've been reading all I can (about 6 books) trying to understand what their motivations are. From where have you gained your information?

 

[IanStuart]

Death to Isreal

 

[vinylgroover]

It seems we do agree and i even agree with you on the supposed motives of Al Qaeda. But that list of motives that you provided are all ideological motives. That is where the difference between the two lies and that is why it upsets me when the link between the two is made. The Palestinian people are fighting for freedom, resisting occupation, the right to self determination and land which they rightfully believe to be theirs, not some ideological bullshit.

Surely you can see the difference.

Hey, i don't agree with their methods either, but at the moment, terrorism is being undertaken by Israel and some sections of the Palestinian state.

If you can see my line of argument, and i think you can, the world has latched on to this 'terrorism' thing and is using it as an excuse for supposed counter terrorism, much of it warranted and just, but in the Palestinian-Israel situation it is far from that and is being used as justification by Israel and perpetuated by the US to continue the status quo.