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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!
- Thread starter BionicBC
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Santa_Claus
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Thanks alot madcow for answering my questions.
I've made some changes to my diet.
Here's what I eat....
Breakfast:
4 hard boiled eggs (whole)
2 toasts with honey
1 glass of milk
2-3 hours later...
500ml of milk with whey protein
Lunch:
Varies but I make sure to get somewhere near 40g of animal proteins
Diner
Varies but I make sure to get somewhere near 40g of animal proteins
2-3 hours later...
500ml of milk with whey protein
Im 23yo, 6'3 200lbs at about 14% bodyfat.
Do you think this diet is enough for me?
(I don't have time or ressources to take 6 small meals a day)
Thanks
Thanks alot madcow for answering my questions.
I've made some changes to my diet.
Here's what I eat....
Breakfast:
4 hard boiled eggs (whole)
2 toasts with honey
1 glass of milk
2-3 hours later...
500ml of milk with whey protein
Lunch:
Varies but I make sure to get somewhere near 40g of animal proteins
Diner
Varies but I make sure to get somewhere near 40g of animal proteins
2-3 hours later...
500ml of milk with whey protein
Im 23yo, 6'3 200lbs at about 14% bodyfat.
Do you think this diet is enough for me?
(I don't have time or ressources to take 6 small meals a day)
Thanks
You missed the golden window - post #498 is the last post I'm ever touching on diet. I have enough to worry about handling the other stuff to get mired in that muck. It's good enough if it is balanced and creates caloric excess. If you continue training and don't gain muscle or fat, you need more. You can estimate your caloric requirements to a degree and then add up everything you eat but it's still an estimate and not based on your activity level and other factors. I don't mean to be a pain or anything but the absolute last thing I want to do is talk about diet. I don't get any enjoyment or fulfillment out of it.
Question:
Im doing the full 9 weeks of the program, im in week 7 now. Once the cycle is over you think it's ok to play around with loading and unloading and see what works, just experiment you know? Say once the last week of the intensity phase is over then deload again, then load say for 3 weeks then deload then load for 3 weeks then deload then maybe hit the intensity phase. So instead of it being a 9 week program it extends it to 12 weeks. 2 3 week periods of load, 2 weeks of deloading, then say 4 weeks of intensity. Really enjoy this program and i know the way it's set up is tried and true but i guess you never know what could happen good or bad from a little tweaking. Thanx.
Im doing the full 9 weeks of the program, im in week 7 now. Once the cycle is over you think it's ok to play around with loading and unloading and see what works, just experiment you know? Say once the last week of the intensity phase is over then deload again, then load say for 3 weeks then deload then load for 3 weeks then deload then maybe hit the intensity phase. So instead of it being a 9 week program it extends it to 12 weeks. 2 3 week periods of load, 2 weeks of deloading, then say 4 weeks of intensity. Really enjoy this program and i know the way it's set up is tried and true but i guess you never know what could happen good or bad from a little tweaking. Thanx.
blut wump
New member
I'd say it's more than merely OK: it's a responsibility to yourself as your own coach to learn what you can tolerate and what works best for you.
If you keep reporting back with how you're progressing then you should be fine. You might find that people here recognize symptoms of loading, overtraining or undertraining faster than you do yourself.
If you keep reporting back with how you're progressing then you should be fine. You might find that people here recognize symptoms of loading, overtraining or undertraining faster than you do yourself.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
What I would suggest is to plan it out completely first. Give a read to the Dual Factor Hypertrophy Program a few pages back - page 22 or just download the full Word doc here: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc
Also read over this dual factor description: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3 you are going to see how this can be laid out more as a longer term plan. You can have periods of relative loading and deloading over years (i.e. 3/1 for the Olympics), it goes into some detail about month to month stuff - I think it uses the Greeks or Bulgarians as an example so don't just think you can load as hard as they do - if you saw their volumes and frequencies you wouldn't believe it.
Also make sure you've read this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643459&postcount=186
So basically, take what you've learned from the 5x5, read DFHT training because there's some good stuff in there that you might want to implement and it's a bit more in depth, read over the links on laying out longer term programs and build something accordingly. You have the advantage of flexability because you aren't training for an event on any special date so just lay it out, use it as a guide, and deviate when necessary.
Topside said:
What I would suggest is to plan it out completely first. Give a read to the Dual Factor Hypertrophy Program a few pages back - page 22 or just download the full Word doc here: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc
Also read over this dual factor description: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3 you are going to see how this can be laid out more as a longer term plan. You can have periods of relative loading and deloading over years (i.e. 3/1 for the Olympics), it goes into some detail about month to month stuff - I think it uses the Greeks or Bulgarians as an example so don't just think you can load as hard as they do - if you saw their volumes and frequencies you wouldn't believe it.
Also make sure you've read this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643459&postcount=186
So basically, take what you've learned from the 5x5, read DFHT training because there's some good stuff in there that you might want to implement and it's a bit more in depth, read over the links on laying out longer term programs and build something accordingly. You have the advantage of flexability because you aren't training for an event on any special date so just lay it out, use it as a guide, and deviate when necessary.
Santa_Claus
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
My chest responds very well to intensity and volume.
Is it okay to do 5x5 2 times a week instead 1x5 and 5x5? I feel like I could handle more.
I used to workout my chest 3x a week (before 5x5) and got really good results from it.
Yours in sweat&iron!
Santa
My chest responds very well to intensity and volume.
Is it okay to do 5x5 2 times a week instead 1x5 and 5x5? I feel like I could handle more.
I used to workout my chest 3x a week (before 5x5) and got really good results from it.
Yours in sweat&iron!
Santa
When you add volume, you don't just impact a single muscle or muscle group. This increases the load on the entire body. Now, in my program description linked in the TOC (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381) I do say that for more advanced trainees you can transition the 1x5 to 5x5. Doing it for chest is going to be less taxing than doing it for the entire slew of exercises (thinking the squat mainly and then adding in 5x5 for the rows) so it's something to consider just doing one.
All that said, you really should have a good foundation first and you can't do this midway through the program because it screws with the volume a bit. Your strength is obviously increasing pretty quickly, it's tough to make an argument that you require more volume when your bench is shooting up like this. The issue you are having with your chest is that the flat bench was not a core lift and lagged some of your other work, most noticably your dip. So when you dropped everything and went with a program that focused heavily on bench, even though you are getting better fast, you've had to take a step backward. I gave a pretty detailed analysis here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4870667&postcount=478
This will resolve itself fairly quickly but like I said, it's really hard to make the case that you require more volume when your bench is shooting up like that in 3 weeks - something is obviously working and working well. The strength increase is all you can control, size will come with strength and increased capacity over a decent rep/set range. You are doing that now but you are paying the price for having a weak realtive bench and over-relying on the dip. I guess you could have run this cycle with dips and not bench but you can't do less than bodyweight so it causes issues and it's not as good of a movement IMO but that's not too important.
My best advice is to be patient, don't screw with it and finish it out. You'll have a solid bench at that point. Run a 4 week program and incorporate your dips or whatever (you'll find a lot more parity between your dip and bench power after this cycle) then step back into a longer foundation style program like this one and work hard for a period.
All that said, you really should have a good foundation first and you can't do this midway through the program because it screws with the volume a bit. Your strength is obviously increasing pretty quickly, it's tough to make an argument that you require more volume when your bench is shooting up like this. The issue you are having with your chest is that the flat bench was not a core lift and lagged some of your other work, most noticably your dip. So when you dropped everything and went with a program that focused heavily on bench, even though you are getting better fast, you've had to take a step backward. I gave a pretty detailed analysis here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4870667&postcount=478
This will resolve itself fairly quickly but like I said, it's really hard to make the case that you require more volume when your bench is shooting up like that in 3 weeks - something is obviously working and working well. The strength increase is all you can control, size will come with strength and increased capacity over a decent rep/set range. You are doing that now but you are paying the price for having a weak realtive bench and over-relying on the dip. I guess you could have run this cycle with dips and not bench but you can't do less than bodyweight so it causes issues and it's not as good of a movement IMO but that's not too important.
My best advice is to be patient, don't screw with it and finish it out. You'll have a solid bench at that point. Run a 4 week program and incorporate your dips or whatever (you'll find a lot more parity between your dip and bench power after this cycle) then step back into a longer foundation style program like this one and work hard for a period.
Santa_Claus
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
A-Ok, Thanks Madcow!
It's really amazing though. I never imagined that my bench would beat my squat. (Admitedly, before 5x5, my only leg workout were parallel squats once a week)
I've always had a BIG ass, long legs and big hips (they called me sweet hips when I was in boarding school
). Yet the squat is my weakest lift.
I have really long arms and small girly wrists yet my bench will soon become better than my squat. It's just weird.
Again, thanks for pulling me out of the dark ages of weightlifting.
Madcow2 said:
A-Ok, Thanks Madcow!
It's really amazing though. I never imagined that my bench would beat my squat. (Admitedly, before 5x5, my only leg workout were parallel squats once a week)
I've always had a BIG ass, long legs and big hips (they called me sweet hips when I was in boarding school
). Yet the squat is my weakest lift.I have really long arms and small girly wrists yet my bench will soon become better than my squat. It's just weird.
Again, thanks for pulling me out of the dark ages of weightlifting.
Your squat will get better. You had to take a hit here too for the depth. If it wasn't now it would be later and it's only going to help you so best to bite the bullet and get it over with. My advice would be to take a picture now and take one 6 and 12 months hence. You will have rock solid lifts, a great foundation with a lot more muscle, and be a powerhouse compared to your former self.
Do you think this program is good to run while training for a DII basketball team. I start on monday running 3 miles 3 days a week, and then doing stations consisting of line jumps, jumping rope, defensive slides, sprints, and 17s (running from baseline to baseline 17 times in under a min). To gain weight obviously i'd have to eat like a mad man, but aside from gaining weight how do you think the 5x5 will fair thrown into my bball program.
Extra_Strong
Well-known member
Topside said:
is that a regular basket ball off season training regimen? I would think that lots and lots of sprints would be the way to go? And bleacher work. I have done that before spent a lot of time running long distance. I felt awesome when my body finally got use to it. But I went to play basketball thinking I would blow them away. And I died. Ha ha..
I would think you would at least change up and do sprints too. Just a though I don’t have much knowledge on the whole deal though.. CoolColJ has a couple good threads he is more focused on basket ball and vertical leap. But I am sure this would work very good also.. To make you a rebounding monster.
It's a good program regardless but take a look at the spectrum of athletes. Your classic endurance runner, a marathoner, vs. a classic non-endurance sport, a weightlifter. You are feeding your body stimuli that are polar opposites. So go ahead and run it, eat a lot but the reason for seasons and periodization is so that you allow for better adaptation and only ask your body to do one thing at a time (for the most part). So, it's still going to be a good program but if you are all about getting as strong as possible and as big as possible, obviously you might leave something on the table. Still, 3 days a week and relatively short workouts, it's tough to beat that when involved in a more time consuming sport.
Boss101
New member
My comments are in bold.
Something that strikes me as a bit odd. Did you try to increase your lifts week to week or did you start light and scale upward meeting previous records around the first record week i.e. 2nd to last week of volume phase, and then surpass that record in the next week? You should be scaling so records. I'm not sure whether you are doing this or not but the way you phrased I figured I'd bring it up.
The first time I ran the cycle I put my best record for all lifts in week 3. I ramped up to that record matching it in week 3 then trying to beat in week 4.
My best 5x5 on the BB Row was 200lbs I ramped like this,
week 1 - 170
week 2 - 185
week 3 - 200
week 4 - 210
Also, how did the training go? Did you feel overwhelmed by the end of loading, did you feel recouped by the beginning of week 7 (i.e. week 5 deload, week 6 first 3x3)? I need a bit more info here. If you have a log and want to post it on the 5x5 thread that would be better the PMing the whole thing to me.
At the end of the volume phase I didn't feel overwhelmed like some people say in the 5x5 thread. I wasn't thinking thank god its time to deload. What I noticed was as the weeks were going on I was feeling more fresh in the gym like I was recovering during the program. Weeks 1-2 were a bit hard and I was worrying that I wasn't going to beat my records in week 4. Once I got to week 5 and on every day in the gym was getting better, stronger more energy. Before I started the routine my appetite was down, trouble sleeping, tired during the day, moody now its the opposite I feel great. I started the program at 185lbs from weeks 1-6 I put on 1-2lbs, I weighed myself Saturday morning and I weigh 195lbs now. 8lbs in the last 3 weeks, my abs are still there no real change in bf% at all.
Another thing is your state of fatigue before beginning the program or whether you weren't able to get the rebound.
When I started the program I was using standard bbing splits for over 6 months with no breaks from training just heavy lifting all the time. I'm going to deload again I'm thinking I was overtrained before starting the routine and I didn't get as much as I could from it. I really screwed up this first cycle when I think about it now I should have ran a 6 week loading peroid instead of 4 weeks.
To be honest, it's hard to tell from the limited info and comparing yourself to others isn't always the best since some of them might be at different relative levels of their absolute max strength (ie. the most they are ever likely to lift at their weight). Gains come a lot slower with experience and the fact that most of these guys gain strength during the volume phase tells me right there that they could likely use a good single factor program (i.e. the novice version of this) and probably net out equal and maybe even better results in some cases.
I would plan on giving it another run through. I would absolutely deload again because we need to ensure that you are starting fresh this time. I'd advise 1-2 weeks of training 2x per week, just use medium weights (i.e. 55-65% 1RM), only the core lifts, no lift more than twice a week, and use a range of 3x3. I want you to be super fresh. We can also experiment with a longer loading period.
Something that strikes me as a bit odd. Did you try to increase your lifts week to week or did you start light and scale upward meeting previous records around the first record week i.e. 2nd to last week of volume phase, and then surpass that record in the next week? You should be scaling so records. I'm not sure whether you are doing this or not but the way you phrased I figured I'd bring it up.
The first time I ran the cycle I put my best record for all lifts in week 3. I ramped up to that record matching it in week 3 then trying to beat in week 4.
My best 5x5 on the BB Row was 200lbs I ramped like this,
week 1 - 170
week 2 - 185
week 3 - 200
week 4 - 210
Also, how did the training go? Did you feel overwhelmed by the end of loading, did you feel recouped by the beginning of week 7 (i.e. week 5 deload, week 6 first 3x3)? I need a bit more info here. If you have a log and want to post it on the 5x5 thread that would be better the PMing the whole thing to me.
At the end of the volume phase I didn't feel overwhelmed like some people say in the 5x5 thread. I wasn't thinking thank god its time to deload. What I noticed was as the weeks were going on I was feeling more fresh in the gym like I was recovering during the program. Weeks 1-2 were a bit hard and I was worrying that I wasn't going to beat my records in week 4. Once I got to week 5 and on every day in the gym was getting better, stronger more energy. Before I started the routine my appetite was down, trouble sleeping, tired during the day, moody now its the opposite I feel great. I started the program at 185lbs from weeks 1-6 I put on 1-2lbs, I weighed myself Saturday morning and I weigh 195lbs now. 8lbs in the last 3 weeks, my abs are still there no real change in bf% at all.
Another thing is your state of fatigue before beginning the program or whether you weren't able to get the rebound.
When I started the program I was using standard bbing splits for over 6 months with no breaks from training just heavy lifting all the time. I'm going to deload again I'm thinking I was overtrained before starting the routine and I didn't get as much as I could from it. I really screwed up this first cycle when I think about it now I should have ran a 6 week loading peroid instead of 4 weeks.
To be honest, it's hard to tell from the limited info and comparing yourself to others isn't always the best since some of them might be at different relative levels of their absolute max strength (ie. the most they are ever likely to lift at their weight). Gains come a lot slower with experience and the fact that most of these guys gain strength during the volume phase tells me right there that they could likely use a good single factor program (i.e. the novice version of this) and probably net out equal and maybe even better results in some cases.
I would plan on giving it another run through. I would absolutely deload again because we need to ensure that you are starting fresh this time. I'd advise 1-2 weeks of training 2x per week, just use medium weights (i.e. 55-65% 1RM), only the core lifts, no lift more than twice a week, and use a range of 3x3. I want you to be super fresh. We can also experiment with a longer loading period.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
That explains a lot and confirms what I was thinking to myself - it also jives with you struggling in the beginning and then feeling better and better all the time until you finally made some fast gains at the very end. I'm betting you were actually recovering a bit in the beginning of the loading period then ended up stalling out still partially loaded but not having the benefit of approaching the final two weeks of loading from being fresh and then just recovered from that point on. I was actually going to ask what you were doing before and whether you started the program fatigued but there's no need - you did. (EDIT - what a dope, I did ask that)
Still 10lbs and a lot of experience. Could have been worse. Take a nice light week or even two with low volume. You might also find yourself a lot stronger this time around so set your weights but be flexible and allow them to move as needed - even add an extra week to the loading period if you aren't really pushing hard by week 3. Judging from the previous experience it shouldn't overwhelm you as long as your aren't pounding at your current (at that time - not now) maximums for 3 weeks straight.
Boss101 said:
That explains a lot and confirms what I was thinking to myself - it also jives with you struggling in the beginning and then feeling better and better all the time until you finally made some fast gains at the very end. I'm betting you were actually recovering a bit in the beginning of the loading period then ended up stalling out still partially loaded but not having the benefit of approaching the final two weeks of loading from being fresh and then just recovered from that point on. I was actually going to ask what you were doing before and whether you started the program fatigued but there's no need - you did. (EDIT - what a dope, I did ask that)
Still 10lbs and a lot of experience. Could have been worse. Take a nice light week or even two with low volume. You might also find yourself a lot stronger this time around so set your weights but be flexible and allow them to move as needed - even add an extra week to the loading period if you aren't really pushing hard by week 3. Judging from the previous experience it shouldn't overwhelm you as long as your aren't pounding at your current (at that time - not now) maximums for 3 weeks straight.
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Boss101
New member
Thank you Madcow, I'll take a light week and start back again. Theres nothing wrong with the way I ramp my weights right? During the volume phase I ramp each week by 15-20lbs and during the intensity phase by 5-10lbs.
This time for my BB Row I'm thinking something like this,
week 1 180lbs
week 2 205lbs
week 3 220lbs New Record
week 4 225-230lbs New Record
This time for my BB Row I'm thinking something like this,
week 1 180lbs
week 2 205lbs
week 3 220lbs New Record
week 4 225-230lbs New Record
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
im on my 7th week, today was really good, squat was moderate, last set felt the easiest. bench was rough, but i got the 3, rows was moderate, do i did 2x3
bb curl, same as rows, finished with 2 sets of heavy pressdowns, the stack +25 for 3.
im gonna lay out my current progress:
Squat|220 |230 |240 |250 |250 |270 |280 | | |
Bench|255 |265 |275 |285 |295 |305 |315 | | |
Row |205 |210 |225 |225 |245 |245 |245 | | |
Curl |85 |95 |125 |135 |145 |145 |135 | | |
Dead |220 |230 |240 |250 |250 |315 | | | |
Squat|175 |185 |195 |205 | x | x | x | x | x | x
OHP |120 |130 |150 |160 |160 |170 | | | |
Chin |bw |5 |10 | x | x |bw | | | | |
Squat|275 |285 |295 |315 |325 |335 | | | |
Bench|205 |215 |225 |245 |255 |265 | | | |
Row |160 |160 |170 |185 |195 | x | | | |
Shrug|275 |295 |315 |325 |315 |335 | | | |
the x means i skipped the exercise due to time or forgetfullness. i started too heavy on the pullups, seeing i got stalled on week 3
the 2nd time i do this will be much better, and more productive, especially for my back, which i misjudged myself on.
i predict the main 3 will still go up 10 pounds a week till the end, the shrugs are actually sets of 10
im on my 7th week, today was really good, squat was moderate, last set felt the easiest. bench was rough, but i got the 3, rows was moderate, do i did 2x3
bb curl, same as rows, finished with 2 sets of heavy pressdowns, the stack +25 for 3.
im gonna lay out my current progress:
Squat|220 |230 |240 |250 |250 |270 |280 | | |
Bench|255 |265 |275 |285 |295 |305 |315 | | |
Row |205 |210 |225 |225 |245 |245 |245 | | |
Curl |85 |95 |125 |135 |145 |145 |135 | | |
Dead |220 |230 |240 |250 |250 |315 | | | |
Squat|175 |185 |195 |205 | x | x | x | x | x | x
OHP |120 |130 |150 |160 |160 |170 | | | |
Chin |bw |5 |10 | x | x |bw | | | | |
Squat|275 |285 |295 |315 |325 |335 | | | |
Bench|205 |215 |225 |245 |255 |265 | | | |
Row |160 |160 |170 |185 |195 | x | | | |
Shrug|275 |295 |315 |325 |315 |335 | | | |
the x means i skipped the exercise due to time or forgetfullness. i started too heavy on the pullups, seeing i got stalled on week 3
the 2nd time i do this will be much better, and more productive, especially for my back, which i misjudged myself on.
i predict the main 3 will still go up 10 pounds a week till the end, the shrugs are actually sets of 10
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
It's okay. It all depends on what you can tolerate. Some will start higher, some lower, bigger jumps, smaller jumps. This stuff becomes highly individual. I'm one of those people who has come to despise the "Everyone is different, find out what works for you" because it is a frequent copout to rationalize all kinds of stupid shit that one might do in the gym - we are not all that unique. However, it is based on some truth and this is one of those areas where it applies. You just need to narrow down what is right for you in regards to progressions, loading tolerance, volume, deloading requirements etc...
Boss101 said:
It's okay. It all depends on what you can tolerate. Some will start higher, some lower, bigger jumps, smaller jumps. This stuff becomes highly individual. I'm one of those people who has come to despise the "Everyone is different, find out what works for you" because it is a frequent copout to rationalize all kinds of stupid shit that one might do in the gym - we are not all that unique. However, it is based on some truth and this is one of those areas where it applies. You just need to narrow down what is right for you in regards to progressions, loading tolerance, volume, deloading requirements etc...
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
More Results -
Jim Quini - up 13.5lbs even with pretty bad stomach flu and only realizing at week 6 that his caloric intake was underestimated.
Final workout and results: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4877589&postcount=76
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4879483&postcount=79
Training log from Week 6 and on of first cycle, as of 5/23/05 it looks like he's running it again back to back:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391939&page=1&pp=20
More Results -
Jim Quini - up 13.5lbs even with pretty bad stomach flu and only realizing at week 6 that his caloric intake was underestimated.
Final workout and results: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4877589&postcount=76
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4879483&postcount=79
Training log from Week 6 and on of first cycle, as of 5/23/05 it looks like he's running it again back to back:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391939&page=1&pp=20
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
so hows it look? i know the back numbers are fucked, i think i short changed myself on the bench, its pretty dam easy, and i was over confident with the back, except for the deads but the squats are right on point.
Madcow2 said:
so hows it look? i know the back numbers are fucked, i think i short changed myself on the bench, its pretty dam easy, and i was over confident with the back, except for the deads but the squats are right on point.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
It looks okay. Nothing wrong that I see and it sounds like you have been doing well and enjoying it from your other posts.
My only advice would be, that I'd avoid getting too wedded to even increments or the initial plan you put down on paper (especially first run though), that way if you think you can handle more you alter the plan. Worse case scenario you carry the weight forward in a lift or two. You really want those last weeks of volume to hammer you. Load hard (within parameters) and the results on the backend will be greater.
It looks okay. Nothing wrong that I see and it sounds like you have been doing well and enjoying it from your other posts.
My only advice would be, that I'd avoid getting too wedded to even increments or the initial plan you put down on paper (especially first run though), that way if you think you can handle more you alter the plan. Worse case scenario you carry the weight forward in a lift or two. You really want those last weeks of volume to hammer you. Load hard (within parameters) and the results on the backend will be greater.
blut wump
New member
Madcow, can you clarify a bit on the "load hard", please?
I'm back around now to week3 and during the first two weeks I was happily adding in extra work here and there if I felt I had too much still in the tank after my scheduled workout. Not intending to knacker myself but just to get a little more worked. If this the kind of thing you have in mind or are you referring more to getting it right in weeks three and four?
Another example: yesterday (week3/day1) I grunted, literally, through my five sets of squats, half expecting each set to be resulting in failure. I got to my bench pyramid and reached the top set to find it a little easier than expected so added more weight and did a sixth set, mentally crossing off my first set as a warmup. Is this more what you mean?
I'm back around now to week3 and during the first two weeks I was happily adding in extra work here and there if I felt I had too much still in the tank after my scheduled workout. Not intending to knacker myself but just to get a little more worked. If this the kind of thing you have in mind or are you referring more to getting it right in weeks three and four?
Another example: yesterday (week3/day1) I grunted, literally, through my five sets of squats, half expecting each set to be resulting in failure. I got to my bench pyramid and reached the top set to find it a little easier than expected so added more weight and did a sixth set, mentally crossing off my first set as a warmup. Is this more what you mean?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
This is what I mean. Hitting it right in the core lifts. A lot of people have comfortably made their week 3 and 4 lifts. Because it's better to be conservative when you are feeling your way for the first time people have tended to nail all their sets/reps in every exercise accross weeks 3/4. In reality, you want to be training as close to the margin as possible and sometimes failure will occur. That's okay. If you read back a bit in super_rice's journal, you'll find he's noticing a much bigger strength increase in the deload this time around.
In reality it's a bit of art and science. You want to fatigue yourself right up to the point of overreaching (using the core lifts not so much assistance work). Being your own coach, you'll sort of have to figure out what that means for volume, load, intensity ramping, frequency etc...
Blut Wump said:
This is what I mean. Hitting it right in the core lifts. A lot of people have comfortably made their week 3 and 4 lifts. Because it's better to be conservative when you are feeling your way for the first time people have tended to nail all their sets/reps in every exercise accross weeks 3/4. In reality, you want to be training as close to the margin as possible and sometimes failure will occur. That's okay. If you read back a bit in super_rice's journal, you'll find he's noticing a much bigger strength increase in the deload this time around.
In reality it's a bit of art and science. You want to fatigue yourself right up to the point of overreaching (using the core lifts not so much assistance work). Being your own coach, you'll sort of have to figure out what that means for volume, load, intensity ramping, frequency etc...
seizer
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Hey MC,
Would it hurt the program or anything if say I did two works one day after another? I'm not trying to gain weight, just loose...but do you think it would affect strength at all or naw...just go for it? I dont plan to make this a habit, just for this week, I was curious?
I realize this question is kinda stupid, but its just killin me lol.
Hey MC,
Would it hurt the program or anything if say I did two works one day after another? I'm not trying to gain weight, just loose...but do you think it would affect strength at all or naw...just go for it? I dont plan to make this a habit, just for this week, I was curious?
I realize this question is kinda stupid, but its just killin me lol.
seizer
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Shit, I'm in week 3...is this gonna be bad? The only reason why I have this problem this week is because my god damn university gym changed their hours and are closed on saturdays and sundays now, so i gotta squeeze my workouts in during this week to get a new scheduel on track. I suppose I could go shell out 15 dollars at goodlife this saturday as workout # 3 for week 3 (today was workout #1) and take a day break than start week four on monday...do you think that might be a better alternative?
Madcow2 said:
Shit, I'm in week 3...is this gonna be bad? The only reason why I have this problem this week is because my god damn university gym changed their hours and are closed on saturdays and sundays now, so i gotta squeeze my workouts in during this week to get a new scheduel on track. I suppose I could go shell out 15 dollars at goodlife this saturday as workout # 3 for week 3 (today was workout #1) and take a day break than start week four on monday...do you think that might be a better alternative?
Not sure if this link is up somewhere in these pages but it's a good read about planned overtraining and recovery. Coolcolj posted it in his creation of an explosive mofo thread.
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Hilarious - I don't fucking believe it. The sample workout is taken directly from my post on Fortified Iron a few years back. Other than some basic clean up this is a direct cut/paste. Check this out:
It's a great article and he credits the right people (it's not like I played any part in the design of this workout anyway other than the fact that the author is using my 3x per week frequency to peak strength in the intensity phase). I should probably email my new writeup since it is vastly improved. Hell, this is probably the easiest to understand example of dual factor theory I've seen so I'll be saving this link for future inclusion in the TOC.
BTW - in case this comes off wrong. I don't care at all about the cut/paste - it's kind of funny to come accross it so randomly. I am glad to see he cleaned it up a bit, that original was written in a rush a few years ago and never proofed. I know it bothered me enough to rewrite it. If anyone wants to cut/paste anything I've written feel free. The whole point is to get the info to people that need it in the first place so if someone finds something valuable they are free to use, publish, distribute ect...
EDIT - shit, I just realized that neither my original nor the article really conveys that the 1x5/1x3 is a pyramid of 5 sets of 5 and 3 sets of 3. If I had only knows how many people might get directed to that post I'd have taken a bit more time.
Topside said:
Hilarious - I don't fucking believe it. The sample workout is taken directly from my post on Fortified Iron a few years back. Other than some basic clean up this is a direct cut/paste. Check this out:
From the Article said:
Madcow1 - FI Post 7/29/2003 said:
It's a great article and he credits the right people (it's not like I played any part in the design of this workout anyway other than the fact that the author is using my 3x per week frequency to peak strength in the intensity phase). I should probably email my new writeup since it is vastly improved. Hell, this is probably the easiest to understand example of dual factor theory I've seen so I'll be saving this link for future inclusion in the TOC.
BTW - in case this comes off wrong. I don't care at all about the cut/paste - it's kind of funny to come accross it so randomly. I am glad to see he cleaned it up a bit, that original was written in a rush a few years ago and never proofed. I know it bothered me enough to rewrite it. If anyone wants to cut/paste anything I've written feel free. The whole point is to get the info to people that need it in the first place so if someone finds something valuable they are free to use, publish, distribute ect...
EDIT - shit, I just realized that neither my original nor the article really conveys that the 1x5/1x3 is a pyramid of 5 sets of 5 and 3 sets of 3. If I had only knows how many people might get directed to that post I'd have taken a bit more time.
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swordfish151
New member
Madcow the deloading (wk 5) the weight stays the same as your 4th week correct..no ramping up again until week 6?
blut wump
New member
Did anyone else notice that he talks consistently of 3/1 load/deload schema and then gives an example using 4 weeks of loading without explanation. Still, it is a very clear write-up of dual-factor principles.
Madcow, you do mention that you do a lot of warmups to get the required volume on the 1x5 exercises. That's close enough to a pyramid.
Madcow, you do mention that you do a lot of warmups to get the required volume on the 1x5 exercises. That's close enough to a pyramid.
Tom Treutlein
New member
I think I'm going to try the original writeup of the program, where you use 5x5 and 3x3 on Monday and Friday, rather than subbing in the 1x5 and 1x3. In all honesty, the volume for my upper body seemed a bit low with the 1x5/1x3 days.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I don't care in the least (although it best not count against any of my 15 minutes of fame as that is supposed to be something a bit grander than this). I actually wrote him an email and pointed out where my original explanation wasn't clear. I'm more concerned with people using that version and not using a pryamid on the 1x5/1x3 days and not understanding why they are fatigued again around weeks 8/9.ceasar989 said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Keep in mind that the volume/load impact is systemic, not just upper or lower body. When you increase volume you increase fatigue. What you really want to look at is how your strength responded. If you got a good deal stronger, it's a tough argument to say that more volume is required. Also, most people are conservative the first time and aren't really pushing themselves in both loading weeks. Setting the weights to where you are truly breaking current and relevant records in both weeks 3/4 is a different ballgame and creates a much bigger rebound effect (and significantly more fatigue as most people are in actuality probably only getting a single week of hard loading if that since there is a trend to make every set/rep accross every exercise in both weeks).
It's also not black and white for 5x5 vs. 1x5. You can use a protocol where you pyramid 2 sets of 5 and then perform 3x5 at working set weight or any other combo (even just the bench and not the squat/row). Moving all exercises from pyramids to repeats of the Monday workout is very significant. If you graph load by working sets it's a major jump. This is why the pyramids are in there simply because a lot of people find this to be too much and fatigue early. Particularly those who haven't used this style of training for a while.
I'm not saying you can't do this but you should evaluate your previous progress (I can't do anything about weight gain, only get you stronger in a hypertrophy range in big exercises - it's up to your body and your diet after that) and then decide from there how much more is appropriate. However, in the end it's a merging of science and art so experimenting and trying things is important.
Tom Treutlein said:
Keep in mind that the volume/load impact is systemic, not just upper or lower body. When you increase volume you increase fatigue. What you really want to look at is how your strength responded. If you got a good deal stronger, it's a tough argument to say that more volume is required. Also, most people are conservative the first time and aren't really pushing themselves in both loading weeks. Setting the weights to where you are truly breaking current and relevant records in both weeks 3/4 is a different ballgame and creates a much bigger rebound effect (and significantly more fatigue as most people are in actuality probably only getting a single week of hard loading if that since there is a trend to make every set/rep accross every exercise in both weeks).
It's also not black and white for 5x5 vs. 1x5. You can use a protocol where you pyramid 2 sets of 5 and then perform 3x5 at working set weight or any other combo (even just the bench and not the squat/row). Moving all exercises from pyramids to repeats of the Monday workout is very significant. If you graph load by working sets it's a major jump. This is why the pyramids are in there simply because a lot of people find this to be too much and fatigue early. Particularly those who haven't used this style of training for a while.
I'm not saying you can't do this but you should evaluate your previous progress (I can't do anything about weight gain, only get you stronger in a hypertrophy range in big exercises - it's up to your body and your diet after that) and then decide from there how much more is appropriate. However, in the end it's a merging of science and art so experimenting and trying things is important.
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I know, the first weeks are supposed to be accomodation followed by 2 weeks of real loading. Very few can truly load heavy for 3 weeks straight.
It's close enough because you know the program. Believe me, the whole reason I rewrote my explanation is because "close enough" bascially means I have to explain it 100x until I give in and rewrite it.
Blut Wump said:
I know, the first weeks are supposed to be accomodation followed by 2 weeks of real loading. Very few can truly load heavy for 3 weeks straight.
Blut Wump said:
It's close enough because you know the program. Believe me, the whole reason I rewrote my explanation is because "close enough" bascially means I have to explain it 100x until I give in and rewrite it.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Hey madcow/others,
I am taking a weeks vacation the day after my final week 5 (deload) workout (I know I should have waited till I got back to start the program but this was unforseen) and was wondering how badly this will affect my gains in the 3x3 phase. Will I need to run the 5x5 laoding phase again or will running the 3x per week intensity phase be OK?
Hey madcow/others,
I am taking a weeks vacation the day after my final week 5 (deload) workout (I know I should have waited till I got back to start the program but this was unforseen) and was wondering how badly this will affect my gains in the 3x3 phase. Will I need to run the 5x5 laoding phase again or will running the 3x per week intensity phase be OK?
Santa_Claus
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I made the mistake of doing deadlift as my last exercise...
I had to do my deads with much less weight because my form was extremely bad with the standard load.
Should I add another volume week to compensate for my shitty deadlift workout or should I just shrug it off and go on?
Also...
My form really suffers when im in the 5 rep range because the weight is very heavy for me. My lower back is straight but I can't keep my middle and upper back straight.
Should I lower the weights until my whole back is straight?
I made the mistake of doing deadlift as my last exercise...
I had to do my deads with much less weight because my form was extremely bad with the standard load.
Should I add another volume week to compensate for my shitty deadlift workout or should I just shrug it off and go on?
Also...
My form really suffers when im in the 5 rep range because the weight is very heavy for me. My lower back is straight but I can't keep my middle and upper back straight.
Should I lower the weights until my whole back is straight?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
This kind of concerns me. If you are using the dual factor version, good foundation and strong technique is assumed. You can't risk building quickly to heavy loading weights if your technique is bad (i.e. you are asking for an injury).
My suggestion since it doesn't look like you've been training the squat or the deadlift for a long time is to use the novice version in the TOC, drop the weight until technique is solid, and build up from there. Being new to these very core lifts a periodized program is the wrong way to approach it. You'll get as much and possibly even more gains out of just running it the basic way.
Santa_Claus said:
This kind of concerns me. If you are using the dual factor version, good foundation and strong technique is assumed. You can't risk building quickly to heavy loading weights if your technique is bad (i.e. you are asking for an injury).
My suggestion since it doesn't look like you've been training the squat or the deadlift for a long time is to use the novice version in the TOC, drop the weight until technique is solid, and build up from there. Being new to these very core lifts a periodized program is the wrong way to approach it. You'll get as much and possibly even more gains out of just running it the basic way.
Santa_Claus
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
yah I think I better switch to the novice version. I've only been weightlifting for 7 months and I've been *doing* the core lifts for like 3 months. It's hard to gauge effectiveness because I added alot of mass despite having no training principles.
But seriously, my squat form is good and so is my benchpress but now that im using heavier weights with the deadlift, my back just doesn't want to go as far as my will.
Single factor here I come
Madcow2 said:
yah I think I better switch to the novice version. I've only been weightlifting for 7 months and I've been *doing* the core lifts for like 3 months. It's hard to gauge effectiveness because I added alot of mass despite having no training principles.
But seriously, my squat form is good and so is my benchpress but now that im using heavier weights with the deadlift, my back just doesn't want to go as far as my will.
Single factor here I come
JL_204
New member
I wish i would have started with the single factor or took a week off before jumping into the 5x5. Im in the 3rd week of loading and i feel fatigue setting in. Ive been lifting for 2 years and thought i could handle it, but with work, school, and everthing else i feel drained.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
You might be okay, you should be pretty burned by the time you finish the first phase and weeks 3 and 4 are pretty damn hard. You should be working at full capacity and you absolutely will not feel fresh and bright. Basically, you should be begging for week 5 and deloading to begin. Most people aren't used to this feeling because they train on programs that assume infintite/long periods ("until it stops working" cliche). This is specifically designed to burn you out - you are just running it right up to the brink and accumulating fatigue the whole time. Just keep a good journal so you get as good a reference as possible to look back on. You might really surprise yourself in the 3x3 phase when you deload. That said, I'd advise doing the 2x per week method especially the first time.
JL_204 said:
You might be okay, you should be pretty burned by the time you finish the first phase and weeks 3 and 4 are pretty damn hard. You should be working at full capacity and you absolutely will not feel fresh and bright. Basically, you should be begging for week 5 and deloading to begin. Most people aren't used to this feeling because they train on programs that assume infintite/long periods ("until it stops working" cliche). This is specifically designed to burn you out - you are just running it right up to the brink and accumulating fatigue the whole time. Just keep a good journal so you get as good a reference as possible to look back on. You might really surprise yourself in the 3x3 phase when you deload. That said, I'd advise doing the 2x per week method especially the first time.
JL_204
New member
thanks madcow i will do that. Mondays and fridays seem to be okay, its wednesdays that are really killing me....specifically the deads and pull ups. Pulling movements seem to be way more taxing for me compared to pushing.
I guess well see what happens in the deload phaes when i drop the wednesday squat.
I guess well see what happens in the deload phaes when i drop the wednesday squat.
Tom Treutlein
New member
Due to possible problems with my back (need to get an MRI), and the fact that it's overly used during my job, I plan to run the routine again, only this time without squats. Yes, I know it's frowned upon. However, I didn't make too large of gains in way of size this time around, due to lack of consistency with diet, for various reasons.
In any case, I want to make sure I stick to my meal plan this time, and see if I can come out with some more thickness on my upper body. In all honesty, strength is what I'm concerned with for my lower body, and I'm eighteen. I have plenty of time to work on it. 'sides, my upper body is lagging in terms of size, and I wanna get it up to, what I think is par.
Anyways, I know that the total fatigue is what really matters, in terms of loading and unloading. That being said, I figured that I could use 5x5 for benching and rowing on Monday and Friday. Along with 5x5 for three exercises on Wednesday, that gives me a total of 175 reps a week. With squats, and using the 1x5 approach on opposing days, you wind up with 190 total reps a week. In other words, the total accrued fatigue seems rather close, and my job drains me enough.
The reason for doing this is so I can avoid screwing up my job, and my back. I'll give it a go through one cycle, work on what I think is most important, and then once I get an MRI, jump right back into squatting.
In any case, I want to make sure I stick to my meal plan this time, and see if I can come out with some more thickness on my upper body. In all honesty, strength is what I'm concerned with for my lower body, and I'm eighteen. I have plenty of time to work on it. 'sides, my upper body is lagging in terms of size, and I wanna get it up to, what I think is par.
Anyways, I know that the total fatigue is what really matters, in terms of loading and unloading. That being said, I figured that I could use 5x5 for benching and rowing on Monday and Friday. Along with 5x5 for three exercises on Wednesday, that gives me a total of 175 reps a week. With squats, and using the 1x5 approach on opposing days, you wind up with 190 total reps a week. In other words, the total accrued fatigue seems rather close, and my job drains me enough.
The reason for doing this is so I can avoid screwing up my job, and my back. I'll give it a go through one cycle, work on what I think is most important, and then once I get an MRI, jump right back into squatting.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Counting reps isn't really the best way. Use weight x reps for every set and add it all up for everything during the week. This will give you total pounds applied over a period which is a better proxy for load (actually it is load but but sometimes reality is different than pounds i.e. adding up the massive weight you can legpress and assuming it is comparable to the squat).
There are a lot of ways of doing it really (some only count 80-85% or greater intensities, some OL programs only bother calculating the full lifts). The jist of it is that squatting is a lot more fatiguing than a pullup or press so total reps isn't the best way to think about it. Let me tell you that if you do the math and subtract the squatting load from the total load over the course of the volume phase - it's a damn big number and the squat is a very stimulative exercise so in reality I'd view the number of pounds you calc for squatting as a very conservative estimate of their true contribution.
Counting reps isn't really the best way. Use weight x reps for every set and add it all up for everything during the week. This will give you total pounds applied over a period which is a better proxy for load (actually it is load but but sometimes reality is different than pounds i.e. adding up the massive weight you can legpress and assuming it is comparable to the squat).
There are a lot of ways of doing it really (some only count 80-85% or greater intensities, some OL programs only bother calculating the full lifts). The jist of it is that squatting is a lot more fatiguing than a pullup or press so total reps isn't the best way to think about it. Let me tell you that if you do the math and subtract the squatting load from the total load over the course of the volume phase - it's a damn big number and the squat is a very stimulative exercise so in reality I'd view the number of pounds you calc for squatting as a very conservative estimate of their true contribution.
Tom Treutlein
New member
Yeah, I took that into account. I didn't want to calculate that much though, so I did it quick in my head. In any case, I can't see how I wouldn't make gains still. I agree that squats can be a good exercise to add total body mass, due to the stimulative effect it has, but you won't get a thicker upper body with just squatting - the other stuff is the meat and potatoes. That's how I feel, anyway. I figure I'll give it one solid run without squats. Should I make no progress, then I'll just make sure never to make that mistake again. However, if I make some nice gains, then I'll know where I stood was correct.
Of couse, I'll miss squatting anyway, but for now this is a more viable option. I can also throw in a few other things if I really wanted to load myself more. I may run sprints, actually. That will certainly wear me down - maybe worse than squats.
Of couse, I'll miss squatting anyway, but for now this is a more viable option. I can also throw in a few other things if I really wanted to load myself more. I may run sprints, actually. That will certainly wear me down - maybe worse than squats.
soccergrub
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I'm gonna start next week and I've figured out most of my 1X5 maxes. Here they are:
Bench 295X5
Row 185X5
Military 135X5 (standing)
Squat 250X5
Deadlift 255X5
Here's the plan the loading
MON...............Week 1.........Week2........Week3........Week4........Week5
Squat (5X5).......205..............215............225............235...........235(3X3)
Bench (1X5).......275..............285............295............305...........305(1X3)
Row (1X5)..........165..............175............185............195...........195(1X3)
WENS
Squat (speed).....160..............165.............170............170............
Deadlift (5X5)......210..............220.............230............240.........240(3x3)
Military (5X5).......100..............110.............120............130.........130(3X3)
Pullups (5X5)........__................__..............___............___.........__(3X3)
FRI
Squat (1X5).........230..............240.............250............260........260(1X3)
Bench (5X5).........245..............255.............265............275........275(3X3)
Row (5X5)............145..............155.............165............175........175(3X3)
I'll wait and see how it's going before planning the deloading phase. How does this look so far?
I'm gonna start next week and I've figured out most of my 1X5 maxes. Here they are:
Bench 295X5
Row 185X5
Military 135X5 (standing)
Squat 250X5
Deadlift 255X5
Here's the plan the loading
MON...............Week 1.........Week2........Week3........Week4........Week5
Squat (5X5).......205..............215............225............235...........235(3X3)
Bench (1X5).......275..............285............295............305...........305(1X3)
Row (1X5)..........165..............175............185............195...........195(1X3)
WENS
Squat (speed).....160..............165.............170............170............
Deadlift (5X5)......210..............220.............230............240.........240(3x3)
Military (5X5).......100..............110.............120............130.........130(3X3)
Pullups (5X5)........__................__..............___............___.........__(3X3)
FRI
Squat (1X5).........230..............240.............250............260........260(1X3)
Bench (5X5).........245..............255.............265............275........275(3X3)
Row (5X5)............145..............155.............165............175........175(3X3)
I'll wait and see how it's going before planning the deloading phase. How does this look so far?
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Tom Treutlein
New member
Work on the squat. I'm surprised your bench is higher. Not meant to be cruel, by the by. Just saying, it's odd to see a bench higher than a squat. I'm guessing you started squatting after benching.
1) week 1 seems close to your maxes. It costs very little to be conservative and starting high is the best way to blow the program.
2) I'm guessing weeks 4/5 are both loading? If so, the weight should go up for the 2nd week. The final 2 weeks are the real key to this phase. If you want week 5 to be deloading you need to change the protocol to the next phase (maybe this is why the weights don't move - except military which goes up 10lbs?)
3) You need to be running a squat based program. Your bench is totally out of proportion. You also need to get your row up within some reasonable range of your bench. This is long-term stuff but that bench is head and shoulders over your squat and dead. I don't mean to dump on you but typically someone hitting raw benches of in the 300 range should be squatting in the 400s at a minimum (deads should be there too). You will be amazed at what this type of training does for your physique - your bench will likely go up too just from improvement in the rest.
2) I'm guessing weeks 4/5 are both loading? If so, the weight should go up for the 2nd week. The final 2 weeks are the real key to this phase. If you want week 5 to be deloading you need to change the protocol to the next phase (maybe this is why the weights don't move - except military which goes up 10lbs?)
3) You need to be running a squat based program. Your bench is totally out of proportion. You also need to get your row up within some reasonable range of your bench. This is long-term stuff but that bench is head and shoulders over your squat and dead. I don't mean to dump on you but typically someone hitting raw benches of in the 300 range should be squatting in the 400s at a minimum (deads should be there too). You will be amazed at what this type of training does for your physique - your bench will likely go up too just from improvement in the rest.
soccergrub
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Yeah, I know. That's one of the main reasons I picked this program....its emphasis on the squat. I really don't give a sh*t about increasing my bench right now but I'll take some gains
.
I am coming back from a 6 year layoff and have been working out steady since Jan. Yes, upper body definitely was a greater emphasis then but not anymore. I'll bring the deadlift and the squat up, it's just gonna take a while.
Tom Treutlein said:
Yeah, I know. That's one of the main reasons I picked this program....its emphasis on the squat. I really don't give a sh*t about increasing my bench right now but I'll take some gains
. I am coming back from a 6 year layoff and have been working out steady since Jan. Yes, upper body definitely was a greater emphasis then but not anymore. I'll bring the deadlift and the squat up, it's just gonna take a while.
soccergrub
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Thanks for the reply.
1) I'm pretty confident I can handle these intensities but I'll keep your advie in mind and adjust as necessary.
2) I edited my original post its was supposed to be the first week of deloading, sorry.
3) Couldn't agree more. My squat used to be better but it's taking longer to come back than my bench. Too much focus on benching in my early days have led to these imbalances but I aim to fix them.
Madcow2 said:
Thanks for the reply.
1) I'm pretty confident I can handle these intensities but I'll keep your advie in mind and adjust as necessary.
2) I edited my original post its was supposed to be the first week of deloading, sorry.
3) Couldn't agree more. My squat used to be better but it's taking longer to come back than my bench. Too much focus on benching in my early days have led to these imbalances but I aim to fix them.
blut wump
New member
You could plan yourself one or two one-month mesocycles to concentrate on your upper body. You could still have squats in there but maybe at a higher rep-range or even try some squat variants like box squats which might stress your posterior chain less or in a fashion which conflicts less with your job.Tom Treutlein said:
I'm just not convinced that you'll thank yourself for dropping squats entirely. If nothing else, high-rep squats are good whole-body warm up.
Tom Treutlein
New member
I was actually thinking of throwing in 1x5 squatting 3x a week. Either that, or 1x5 on two days, 3x5 on another. Just...less volume than I was doing.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Topical and Fundemental Solution Framework Applied to Training
I just read a great post from Blut Wump that I think really sums up very clearly why suboptimal methods in some situations might produce results equal to the most optimal methods, yet in others fail miserably. I happened to really enjoy the framework he used and I think it really clarifies what it is we are observing.
Source Post: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4898308&postcount=34
Topical and Fundemental Solution Framework Applied to Training
I just read a great post from Blut Wump that I think really sums up very clearly why suboptimal methods in some situations might produce results equal to the most optimal methods, yet in others fail miserably. I happened to really enjoy the framework he used and I think it really clarifies what it is we are observing.
Source Post: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4898308&postcount=34
blut wump said:
Slyder190
New member
Madcow, a few more questions again. But first, I must say yhat while I have not put on any size thus far (week 6 point), My strength has really taken off. I can't thank you enough!
Now for the questions-
I never use a weight belt. I have a "sway back", which sways inward at the bottom of my spine (and causes my ass to stick out), and have had back pain on and off for years. Nothing too major outside the herniation I had one time. My back is a bit sore at times as I've gone up in weights, pretty sure it's from the squats. Should I wear a belt when going heavy now?
You mentioned one can get stronger on a reduced calorire diet due to neural adaption. If this is the pathway, how is it that size often comes as well when not on a claoire restriced diet? Just curious. I would like to up my calories, but summer is upon us (and yeah, I guess I'm vane).
And I would like to hit DFHT at some point in the fall. Can you help guide me through it on this thread as you've done so well in doing so with 5x5 for everyone?
Thanks.
Now for the questions-
I never use a weight belt. I have a "sway back", which sways inward at the bottom of my spine (and causes my ass to stick out), and have had back pain on and off for years. Nothing too major outside the herniation I had one time. My back is a bit sore at times as I've gone up in weights, pretty sure it's from the squats. Should I wear a belt when going heavy now?
You mentioned one can get stronger on a reduced calorire diet due to neural adaption. If this is the pathway, how is it that size often comes as well when not on a claoire restriced diet? Just curious. I would like to up my calories, but summer is upon us (and yeah, I guess I'm vane).
And I would like to hit DFHT at some point in the fall. Can you help guide me through it on this thread as you've done so well in doing so with 5x5 for everyone?
Thanks.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
So, if you've stayed the same weight and not added muscle or fat....that's fairly conclusive that you need everything you eat just to maintain your current weight and whatever muscle you have. Caloric excess is not present, and I'm betting being a BBer you keep yourself fairly lean. You might find my Diet/Caloric Excess thread linked in the TOC a helpful read. In short, you need to eat more food, you have as much muscle on you as your body will support on your current diet. The program is working, you are getting strong in the right exercises and in the right rep/volume ranges but your body fears for its survival and will not add muscle.
I don't know enough about this condition. In general I prefer not to rely on a belt except when handling heavy weights. Plenty of guys perform heavy squats unequipped (there's a really famouns 'no-no-no' poster of an OL doing a very heavy ATF triple). Like I said, I don't know all the ins and outs of the condition. Over-relying on a belt can actually weaken the stabalization muscles relative to the prime overs. This is all up to you, try it and see if it helps and then think about it.
Sets of 5 reps and volumes in the 5x5 range are hypertrophy inducing as well as providing for neural efficiency. But if you don't eat, your body won't put on muscle. Muscle is not an elastic resource which can be put up and stripped down in a day for easy energy. Through millions of years our bodies have learned that maintaining a lot of muscle is very risky due to intermittent famines and food shortages (i.e. those of us with genetics to just layer on muscle and be ripped all the time died very quicky). It will not add muscle at the expense of your fat stores (made worse by most BBers prefering to be as lean as possible) unless it is reasonably certain that food is plentiful and there is a major need (i.e. proper training program/stimulus).
No fuckin' way. If I do it for one, I have to do it for everybody and my plate is full. Tons of documentation on this thread linked in the TOC as well as in the forums at Mesomorphosis, Core Magazine, the forums at midwestbarbell. All of that info in is Part I and repeated in Parts II and III.
slyder190 said:
So, if you've stayed the same weight and not added muscle or fat....that's fairly conclusive that you need everything you eat just to maintain your current weight and whatever muscle you have. Caloric excess is not present, and I'm betting being a BBer you keep yourself fairly lean. You might find my Diet/Caloric Excess thread linked in the TOC a helpful read. In short, you need to eat more food, you have as much muscle on you as your body will support on your current diet. The program is working, you are getting strong in the right exercises and in the right rep/volume ranges but your body fears for its survival and will not add muscle.
slyder190 said:
I don't know enough about this condition. In general I prefer not to rely on a belt except when handling heavy weights. Plenty of guys perform heavy squats unequipped (there's a really famouns 'no-no-no' poster of an OL doing a very heavy ATF triple). Like I said, I don't know all the ins and outs of the condition. Over-relying on a belt can actually weaken the stabalization muscles relative to the prime overs. This is all up to you, try it and see if it helps and then think about it.
slyder190 said:
Sets of 5 reps and volumes in the 5x5 range are hypertrophy inducing as well as providing for neural efficiency. But if you don't eat, your body won't put on muscle. Muscle is not an elastic resource which can be put up and stripped down in a day for easy energy. Through millions of years our bodies have learned that maintaining a lot of muscle is very risky due to intermittent famines and food shortages (i.e. those of us with genetics to just layer on muscle and be ripped all the time died very quicky). It will not add muscle at the expense of your fat stores (made worse by most BBers prefering to be as lean as possible) unless it is reasonably certain that food is plentiful and there is a major need (i.e. proper training program/stimulus).
slyder190 said:
No fuckin' way
. If I do it for one, I have to do it for everybody and my plate is full. Tons of documentation on this thread linked in the TOC as well as in the forums at Mesomorphosis, Core Magazine, the forums at midwestbarbell. All of that info in is Part I and repeated in Parts II and III.Question week 9 is approaching (in week 8 now). When i finish week 9 im about 99% sure im gonna deload again i think my body willl probably need it. Since this phase we are already doing 3x3 how would you deload that. Say week 9 my bench is 180 row is 190 and squat is 235 all for 3, do you just repeat week 9 or drop it down to 2x3 or something like that?
psychedout
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I might as well add to the chaos and post up my results.
I did the program while dieting and followed it although someone modified (don't worry guys, it was still dual-factor in every sense). Instead of doing 5x5 squats I did 2x20 in the loading phase, and 1x20 in the deloading phase. I know someone is gonna try and call bullshit, but no lies I gained about 65 pounds to my 20rep squat. (I was not, and still am not too concerned with making my legs much bigger -- that said they still grew even with 20reppers). I also incorporated weighted dips on the Friday workout (5x5 loading, 3x3 deloading).
I did make the mistake of underestimating the difficulty of the rows in the program. Certainly much harder than a barbell or t-bar row. As a result I tweaked my back, but still managed to get through.
Now for the gains. My SOHP gained a tonne. In part due to the fact that I had never done them religously before, but damn they work good. I can really see how the translate into more bench press strength. Before when I unracked anything heavier than my 5RM I would be shaky and nervous and not powerful. Now I can hold a 2-1RM weight like a piece of cake -- lower it smoothly, up smoothly -- great power overall. My wieghted chin also gained a tonne -- which is great because I have never been good at chins at all. My row gained a lot, but I don't really have any previous numbers for comparison because I never was involved in dynamic rowing before. Bench gained a bit (15 pounds I beleive), but I wasn't expecting more because I have always been pretty far ahead of the game with my bench numbers.
Now, this is the biggest thing that shocked me with the program. Body parts like rear delts and other tiny muscles really started poking through with little or no direct work. I'll admit one of my concerns is that this program would build solid mass, but at the expense of cosmetics. From my experience, this is not true at all. The only thing I can see appearence wise is that I could use more shoulder width; but for now I am just gonna keep OHP'ing hard, and throw in the odd drop set of db laterals perhaps.
Now for my next program I am gonna run a dual-factor program again, but somewhat different. Same exercise selection really, but different rep schemes. Madcow, what do you think about this (I think it would still be dual factor theory training). Example is below.
Here is how it would look for a given exercise:
Loading phase:
Weeks 1-2
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps
-8 reps
-6 reps
None of these sets are pushed to failure, they would be stopped 1-2 reps short of failure (thus intensity is not 100%).
Week 3-4
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps x failure
-8 reps x failure
-6 reps x failure (lets say this number is 200pds).
These sets are max intensity sets.
Deloading phase (using the same lift that was at 200pds before)
Week 5
-Warm up set(s)
-3reps x 150 easy
-2reps x 175 easy
-5reps x 200 pds (step back 1 rep with the wieght here and no real volume prior to this set really)
Weeks 6 to approx. 10.
- Light triple
- Light double
- Intense 5RM (adding 5-10 pounds per week to this lift)
Basically the deloading would be run until a wall is hit and lifts are not moving up anymore.
If I need to clarify something in there, feel free to let me know.
I might as well add to the chaos and post up my results.
I did the program while dieting and followed it although someone modified (don't worry guys, it was still dual-factor in every sense). Instead of doing 5x5 squats I did 2x20 in the loading phase, and 1x20 in the deloading phase. I know someone is gonna try and call bullshit, but no lies I gained about 65 pounds to my 20rep squat. (I was not, and still am not too concerned with making my legs much bigger -- that said they still grew even with 20reppers). I also incorporated weighted dips on the Friday workout (5x5 loading, 3x3 deloading).
I did make the mistake of underestimating the difficulty of the rows in the program. Certainly much harder than a barbell or t-bar row. As a result I tweaked my back, but still managed to get through.
Now for the gains. My SOHP gained a tonne. In part due to the fact that I had never done them religously before, but damn they work good. I can really see how the translate into more bench press strength. Before when I unracked anything heavier than my 5RM I would be shaky and nervous and not powerful. Now I can hold a 2-1RM weight like a piece of cake -- lower it smoothly, up smoothly -- great power overall. My wieghted chin also gained a tonne -- which is great because I have never been good at chins at all. My row gained a lot, but I don't really have any previous numbers for comparison because I never was involved in dynamic rowing before. Bench gained a bit (15 pounds I beleive), but I wasn't expecting more because I have always been pretty far ahead of the game with my bench numbers.
Now, this is the biggest thing that shocked me with the program. Body parts like rear delts and other tiny muscles really started poking through with little or no direct work. I'll admit one of my concerns is that this program would build solid mass, but at the expense of cosmetics. From my experience, this is not true at all. The only thing I can see appearence wise is that I could use more shoulder width; but for now I am just gonna keep OHP'ing hard, and throw in the odd drop set of db laterals perhaps.
Now for my next program I am gonna run a dual-factor program again, but somewhat different. Same exercise selection really, but different rep schemes. Madcow, what do you think about this (I think it would still be dual factor theory training). Example is below.
Here is how it would look for a given exercise:
Loading phase:
Weeks 1-2
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps
-8 reps
-6 reps
None of these sets are pushed to failure, they would be stopped 1-2 reps short of failure (thus intensity is not 100%).
Week 3-4
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps x failure
-8 reps x failure
-6 reps x failure (lets say this number is 200pds).
These sets are max intensity sets.
Deloading phase (using the same lift that was at 200pds before)
Week 5
-Warm up set(s)
-3reps x 150 easy
-2reps x 175 easy
-5reps x 200 pds (step back 1 rep with the wieght here and no real volume prior to this set really)
Weeks 6 to approx. 10.
- Light triple
- Light double
- Intense 5RM (adding 5-10 pounds per week to this lift)
Basically the deloading would be run until a wall is hit and lifts are not moving up anymore.
If I need to clarify something in there, feel free to let me know.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381
EDIT - added top quote for relevance, psychedout slipped right past me
Topside said:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381
madcow2 said:
EDIT - added top quote for relevance, psychedout slipped right past me
Last edited:
Tom Treutlein
New member
Congratulations with the gains you made on the program, psyched.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
First, congrats on the program. I have been wondering about how it went for you. I was kind of affraid you'd be sitting there immobile with a cage screwed into your skull quietly cursing me for ever introducing you to the rows. The fact that you gained strength and it sounds like some muscle (i.e. the rear delts etc... reference) while dieting is testament to good work.
On to the program. As long as you push hard and run it to the point of overreaching and then deload, it's dual factor/periodized. As to whether it's going to be stimulative to hypertrophy or strength that's kind of a separate matter although they have to intersect for long term progress.
Anyway, this issue with pyramiding the rep scheme like that is that you are pushing yourself hard on lower intensities (% 1RM) and are somewhat fatigued by the time you hit your lower most stimulative reps in the loading phase (this is true irregardless of whether you go to failure or not as you are trying to stop just shy of a constant increment from failure). I'd really rather see consistency in sets of 6 or 8 or 10 or whatever. Not saying it won't work but this is the integral problem in that you are fatigued before you get to your heaviest weight. If you like to contrast lower with higher reps you could always plan something custom after working with low reps like a 3/1 mesocycle where you handle reps in the 8-12 range or some such. Just random thoughts but stuff you should keep in mind and possibly factor in this period or the future.
For week 5, I'm assuming you aren't dropping exercises or altering anything else. The volume is really low. I wouldn't drop back at all on the top set. You also won't be nearly as fatigued because there isn't much work prior to your top set.
For weeks 6-10, I may have this right or wrong but the way I would approach it is to add poundage each week. I think that's what you are doing. It looks like the volume is really low here though.
An exercise that I would do is to compare this cycle to last on a pounds lifted per week basis (just use the core exercises don't count arms or any other stuff if it's in there - no warm ups either but all planned working sets).
I wrote this above to Tom about calculating Loads. This will allow you to compare what you are handling this cycle vs. last. With sets/reps like you have I think you are going to find that it may be significantly less. That's okay but stuff like this you want to know about because load is the major factor on fatigue and increasing capacity.
psychedout said:Madcow, what do you think about this (I think it would still be dual factor theory training). Example is below.
Here is how it would look for a given exercise:
Loading phase:
Weeks 1-2
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps
-8 reps
-6 reps
None of these sets are pushed to failure, they would be stopped 1-2 reps short of failure (thus intensity is not 100%).
Week 3-4
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps x failure
-8 reps x failure
-6 reps x failure (lets say this number is 200pds).
These sets are max intensity sets.
Deloading phase (using the same lift that was at 200pds before)
Week 5
-Warm up set(s)
-3reps x 150 easy
-2reps x 175 easy
-5reps x 200 pds (step back 1 rep with the wieght here and no real volume prior to this set really)
Weeks 6 to approx. 10.
- Light triple
- Light double
- Intense 5RM (adding 5-10 pounds per week to this lift)
Basically the deloading would be run until a wall is hit and lifts are not moving up anymore.
If I need to clarify something in there, feel free to let me know.
First, congrats on the program. I have been wondering about how it went for you. I was kind of affraid you'd be sitting there immobile with a cage screwed into your skull quietly cursing me for ever introducing you to the rows. The fact that you gained strength and it sounds like some muscle (i.e. the rear delts etc... reference) while dieting is testament to good work.
On to the program. As long as you push hard and run it to the point of overreaching and then deload, it's dual factor/periodized. As to whether it's going to be stimulative to hypertrophy or strength that's kind of a separate matter although they have to intersect for long term progress.
Anyway, this issue with pyramiding the rep scheme like that is that you are pushing yourself hard on lower intensities (% 1RM) and are somewhat fatigued by the time you hit your lower most stimulative reps in the loading phase (this is true irregardless of whether you go to failure or not as you are trying to stop just shy of a constant increment from failure). I'd really rather see consistency in sets of 6 or 8 or 10 or whatever. Not saying it won't work but this is the integral problem in that you are fatigued before you get to your heaviest weight. If you like to contrast lower with higher reps you could always plan something custom after working with low reps like a 3/1 mesocycle where you handle reps in the 8-12 range or some such. Just random thoughts but stuff you should keep in mind and possibly factor in this period or the future.
For week 5, I'm assuming you aren't dropping exercises or altering anything else. The volume is really low. I wouldn't drop back at all on the top set. You also won't be nearly as fatigued because there isn't much work prior to your top set.
For weeks 6-10, I may have this right or wrong but the way I would approach it is to add poundage each week. I think that's what you are doing. It looks like the volume is really low here though.
An exercise that I would do is to compare this cycle to last on a pounds lifted per week basis (just use the core exercises don't count arms or any other stuff if it's in there - no warm ups either but all planned working sets).
I wrote this above to Tom about calculating Loads. This will allow you to compare what you are handling this cycle vs. last. With sets/reps like you have I think you are going to find that it may be significantly less. That's okay but stuff like this you want to know about because load is the major factor on fatigue and increasing capacity.
Santa_Claus
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Hi , I do this workout in single factor and I was wondering if it was okay to add a few push-up sets(to prepare for basic training) here and there on off-days without it affecting my bench performance.
thx
Mon......
Squat.......5x5.....
Bench.......1x5.....................
Row.........1x5...............
Wed......
Front Squat.......5x5
Deadlift.....5x5..........
Military......5x5.............
Pullups.......5x5........
Fri.......
Squat........1x5............
Bench........5x5.........
Row...........5x5.........
Hi , I do this workout in single factor and I was wondering if it was okay to add a few push-up sets(to prepare for basic training) here and there on off-days without it affecting my bench performance.
thx
Mon......
Squat.......5x5.....
Bench.......1x5.....................
Row.........1x5...............
Wed......
Front Squat.......5x5
Deadlift.....5x5..........
Military......5x5.............
Pullups.......5x5........
Fri.......
Squat........1x5............
Bench........5x5.........
Row...........5x5.........
Re: Stiff Knees
If there is any way you can get a video with a digicam or even a cellphone camera and upload it somehow it would be great (there are a bunch of host sites ask super_rice). At least one rep from the front, side, and also 45 degrees between front and side.
Boss101 said:
If there is any way you can get a video with a digicam or even a cellphone camera and upload it somehow it would be great (there are a bunch of host sites ask super_rice). At least one rep from the front, side, and also 45 degrees between front and side.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
If you do them from just above knee level (i.e. the traditional hang position) substitute them for rows on M/F. Otherwise this can be a hard exercise to fit in. You'd probably have to scale the dead back to 3x5 and add 3x5 power shrugs which will likely kill you trying to set records on both in the same day. To be honest, the 5x5 isn't condusive to adding this movement unless it's changed into a clean pull from the hang sort of deal (which is a fabulous exercise). Before you can add them, you need to be well conditioned and used to the technique though.
JL_204 said:
If you do them from just above knee level (i.e. the traditional hang position) substitute them for rows on M/F. Otherwise this can be a hard exercise to fit in. You'd probably have to scale the dead back to 3x5 and add 3x5 power shrugs which will likely kill you trying to set records on both in the same day. To be honest, the 5x5 isn't condusive to adding this movement unless it's changed into a clean pull from the hang sort of deal (which is a fabulous exercise). Before you can add them, you need to be well conditioned and used to the technique though.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Depends on how much. It's a good idea to be able to do pushups before going into basic but I can't tell you there will be no effect. How big the effect is depends on how much your do and how you tolerate low intensity volume work. Have to see.
Santa_Claus said:
Depends on how much. It's a good idea to be able to do pushups before going into basic but I can't tell you there will be no effect. How big the effect is depends on how much your do and how you tolerate low intensity volume work. Have to see.
madcow, a while ago you posted that those with over 2x bodyweight deads should scale down the deads to 3x3 for the duration of the program. i was wondering if it would be a bad idea to change it to 1x3 in the intensity phase so it kind of ramps up like the rest of the program? currently i deadlift 3x bodyweight (i dont weigh too much 
). i would think itd be weird to do 3x3, do 3x3 at the deloading phase, and then continue with the 3x3 no?
). i would think itd be weird to do 3x3, do 3x3 at the deloading phase, and then continue with the 3x3 no?
JL_204
New member
My friend is going to start the novice version next Monday.
How long should he stay on this program before he goes to the dual factor?
I would imagine for as long as he's gaining consistantly, but he sees me doing the dual factor and hes anxious to start. I dont blame him, he used to bench more than me and now im 30 pounds ahead of him.
BTW hes been training for a year now.
How long should he stay on this program before he goes to the dual factor?
I would imagine for as long as he's gaining consistantly, but he sees me doing the dual factor and hes anxious to start. I dont blame him, he used to bench more than me and now im 30 pounds ahead of him.
BTW hes been training for a year now.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
It depends on how much the deadlift contributes to volume and how taxing it is for you. The squats are the primary driver of the total weekly load in this program. You can do the math by multiplying weightXreps for every set for every exercise. Add them up in each week or break each exercise out to see how much of the total % it plays.
Anyway, I'd go by feel. The dead isn't the primary driver but if this movement is taxing to you and 3x3 for the duration is too much scale it down as needed and if it's a 1x3 format lift than so be it. I'll leave the judegement to you.
lavi said:madcow, a while ago you posted that those with over 2x bodyweight deads should scale down the deads to 3x3 for the duration of the program. i was wondering if it would be a bad idea to change it to 1x3 in the intensity phase so it kind of ramps up like the rest of the program? currently i deadlift 3x bodyweight (i dont weigh too much
It depends on how much the deadlift contributes to volume and how taxing it is for you. The squats are the primary driver of the total weekly load in this program. You can do the math by multiplying weightXreps for every set for every exercise. Add them up in each week or break each exercise out to see how much of the total % it plays.
Anyway, I'd go by feel. The dead isn't the primary driver but if this movement is taxing to you and 3x3 for the duration is too much scale it down as needed and if it's a 1x3 format lift than so be it. I'll leave the judegement to you.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Read this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235
It will give you an idea on how these guys handle it.
Basically, if you can continue to push the weight out on a consistent basis without letting off the gas than go for it. It it starts to crawl cut the volume and frequency for a few weeks and hammer it again. This is what I have a friend doing right now who's just getting back into it. As long as he's making gains, keep the accelerator pressed and take a breather as needed.
JL_204 said:
Read this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235
It will give you an idea on how these guys handle it.
Basically, if you can continue to push the weight out on a consistent basis without letting off the gas than go for it. It it starts to crawl cut the volume and frequency for a few weeks and hammer it again. This is what I have a friend doing right now who's just getting back into it. As long as he's making gains, keep the accelerator pressed and take a breather as needed.
blut wump
New member
I'm moving into the deload phase next week and think that I will try the 2x protocol this time around. During the volume phase, I've been doing box-squats on Wednesdays and decided that I like them. As such, for the intensity phase, I am thinking of making them my Monday squat and keeping the Oly squats as my light Wednesday session.
Currently, my Wednesday box-squat is a shade higher than, but comparable with, my top set of Friday deepsquats, which may have been reckless of me but I seem to have survived, and so I can track the percentages to use for the Weds light squats easily enough.
Can you see any problems with this that I should be aware of?
Currently, my Wednesday box-squat is a shade higher than, but comparable with, my top set of Friday deepsquats, which may have been reckless of me but I seem to have survived, and so I can track the percentages to use for the Weds light squats easily enough.
Can you see any problems with this that I should be aware of?
Santa_Claus
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body can take in a week?
For example, I used to do squats only once per week. Now I do train my legs three times a week using squats.
day 1: I do squats, 5 sets of 5 reps /w big weights*
day 2: I do front squats /w big weights
day 3: I do 5 sets of 5 reps /w medium weights
(*relatively speaking because 210lbs is big for me)
The strength of my legs is better. Before, I struggled to do 5 reps of 5 sets to parallel and now I can do the same weight, ass to the grass, with less hardship. Now my legs are bigger and stronger. In conclusion, I'd say that I didn't train my legs with enough volume. My volume has increased by about 2.5 and I made good gains. Right now, I follow the 5x5 exercise template but I don't do the actual dual-factor program. I like to do the compound exercises but im not ready for periodization yet.
My question to you is...How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body(or body parts) can take in a week? Why 5 sets? how do you know that 5 sets is right and not 4 or 3 sets? For example, if 5 sets is the correct volume, why not do 2 sets of deadlifts on day 1, 2 sets of deads on day 2 and 1 sets of deads one day 3? Volume stays the same, only frequency changes and the muscles stays stimulated throughout the week.
Thanks
How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body can take in a week?
For example, I used to do squats only once per week. Now I do train my legs three times a week using squats.
day 1: I do squats, 5 sets of 5 reps /w big weights*
day 2: I do front squats /w big weights
day 3: I do 5 sets of 5 reps /w medium weights
(*relatively speaking because 210lbs is big for me)
The strength of my legs is better. Before, I struggled to do 5 reps of 5 sets to parallel and now I can do the same weight, ass to the grass, with less hardship. Now my legs are bigger and stronger. In conclusion, I'd say that I didn't train my legs with enough volume. My volume has increased by about 2.5 and I made good gains. Right now, I follow the 5x5 exercise template but I don't do the actual dual-factor program. I like to do the compound exercises but im not ready for periodization yet.
My question to you is...How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body(or body parts) can take in a week? Why 5 sets? how do you know that 5 sets is right and not 4 or 3 sets? For example, if 5 sets is the correct volume, why not do 2 sets of deadlifts on day 1, 2 sets of deads on day 2 and 1 sets of deads one day 3? Volume stays the same, only frequency changes and the muscles stays stimulated throughout the week.
Thanks
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I think you are doing it the right way in that your box is the heavier squat. You might not want to put that on Wednesday next time but you're at the point where you have enough experience to not blow everything up and learn as you go so give it a shot. If you are adding bands/chains or anything else - absolutely do not put it on Wednesday.
Blut Wump said:
I think you are doing it the right way in that your box is the heavier squat. You might not want to put that on Wednesday next time but you're at the point where you have enough experience to not blow everything up and learn as you go so give it a shot. If you are adding bands/chains or anything else - absolutely do not put it on Wednesday.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Active recovery is usually preferable except in extreme cases or for mental health and a break after a competition. It won't kill you though.
There is an entire section on setting up your second cycle in my description linked in the TOC: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381
It's very general and conservative. I don't know how strong you got or where you are at. You need to be breaking records and really pushing in the final two weeks of the first phase. Set your weights according to your best estimate and either adjust on the fly or add an extra week if you need to jump up too much due to strength increase.
slyder190 said:
Active recovery is usually preferable except in extreme cases or for mental health and a break after a competition. It won't kill you though.
There is an entire section on setting up your second cycle in my description linked in the TOC: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381
It's very general and conservative. I don't know how strong you got or where you are at. You need to be breaking records and really pushing in the final two weeks of the first phase. Set your weights according to your best estimate and either adjust on the fly or add an extra week if you need to jump up too much due to strength increase.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
When you aren't periodizing it's not a question of what can you tolerate for a week or a day or even a month. It's a question of what can you do week in/week out for months on end and not burnout or overly fatigue yourself.
Take the squats for example: You'll notive the single factor Starr program uses pyramids for all 3 days, the plain vanilla dual factor uses constant set weights on the first 2 days (heavy and light), and when I suggest ways to increase the volume for more advanced lifters in the dual factor program I tell them to gradually transfer the 3rd day of squats, the remaining pyramid, to constant set weights. Basically, Starr's program is designed to be run long term, whereas the others are designed to push someone hard enough to put them into overtraining if they don't cut back periodically. None are better or worse than the other, if you can add weight week to week using the single factor and maybe take a light week or two every few months - ride that horse until it drops. If you are getting good results with the current volume and making steady increases - ride on.
As for the right amount of volume and frequency, frequency is no where near as important or absolute as BBers make it out to be but there is still some impact where conditioning and efficiency come into play. The dead particularly is nasty because it's a bastard of an exercise and really taxes recovery and the lower back which affects your squats and everything else. You can certainly do a deadlift based program or increase frequency but it's harder to accomodate that lift - look at Korte's 3x3 program where you pull 3x pwer week as well as squat and bench, there is no assistance work at all and this program is ripping hard if you have a good dead: (upper right corner) http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/index.htm
All that said, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat you just need to be careful. Maybe try experimenting some. Read the other articles at deepsquatter. Take a look at Prilepin's table in my TOC. Here is a link to the Coan/Phillipi Deadlift program, I believe there's even an excel sheet linked for it: http://www.powerpage.net/coanphildead.html
You are your own coach and there is some science to it (none of this blanked "do what works for you, everyone is different. I do anus squeezes supersetted with kickbacks" bullshit) but in reality it's a blending of science and art. It's a fun hobby and very rewarding on a variety of levels. Dig in.
Santa_Claus said:
When you aren't periodizing it's not a question of what can you tolerate for a week or a day or even a month. It's a question of what can you do week in/week out for months on end and not burnout or overly fatigue yourself.
Take the squats for example: You'll notive the single factor Starr program uses pyramids for all 3 days, the plain vanilla dual factor uses constant set weights on the first 2 days (heavy and light), and when I suggest ways to increase the volume for more advanced lifters in the dual factor program I tell them to gradually transfer the 3rd day of squats, the remaining pyramid, to constant set weights. Basically, Starr's program is designed to be run long term, whereas the others are designed to push someone hard enough to put them into overtraining if they don't cut back periodically. None are better or worse than the other, if you can add weight week to week using the single factor and maybe take a light week or two every few months - ride that horse until it drops. If you are getting good results with the current volume and making steady increases - ride on.
As for the right amount of volume and frequency, frequency is no where near as important or absolute as BBers make it out to be but there is still some impact where conditioning and efficiency come into play. The dead particularly is nasty because it's a bastard of an exercise and really taxes recovery and the lower back which affects your squats and everything else. You can certainly do a deadlift based program or increase frequency but it's harder to accomodate that lift - look at Korte's 3x3 program where you pull 3x pwer week as well as squat and bench, there is no assistance work at all and this program is ripping hard if you have a good dead: (upper right corner) http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/index.htm
All that said, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat you just need to be careful. Maybe try experimenting some. Read the other articles at deepsquatter. Take a look at Prilepin's table in my TOC. Here is a link to the Coan/Phillipi Deadlift program, I believe there's even an excel sheet linked for it: http://www.powerpage.net/coanphildead.html
You are your own coach and there is some science to it (none of this blanked "do what works for you, everyone is different. I do anus squeezes supersetted with kickbacks" bullshit) but in reality it's a blending of science and art. It's a fun hobby and very rewarding on a variety of levels. Dig in.
Slyder190
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I read over the link, but I still don't know what percentage of weights to use or anything for the 2 weeks of deloading again you recomend. For example, if my max on bench is say 315 for 1x3 and 275 is my 3x3 bench max, what type of weights would I be using in the lfting regimine in the 2 weeks of the post cycle? Not quite sure I follow what i should be doing altogether. Ami switching to a 2x a week workout schedule? Using 3x3 for given weights or percentages of max weights? Sorry bro, I'm just lost.
And also, when you're in weeks where you're surpassing previous records, you are going to failure correct? just making sure.
Madcow2 said:
I read over the link, but I still don't know what percentage of weights to use or anything for the 2 weeks of deloading again you recomend. For example, if my max on bench is say 315 for 1x3 and 275 is my 3x3 bench max, what type of weights would I be using in the lfting regimine in the 2 weeks of the post cycle? Not quite sure I follow what i should be doing altogether. Ami switching to a 2x a week workout schedule? Using 3x3 for given weights or percentages of max weights? Sorry bro, I'm just lost.
And also, when you're in weeks where you're surpassing previous records, you are going to failure correct? just making sure.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
You kind of need to go by feel. Do you feel like you are overreaching again? If you don't feel like you did in week 4 (Assuming you set the weights right) then take a single week of 2 workouts at 50-65% or some such and begin the volume again. Point being, it should be easy, work on acceleration a bit or something but you want to keep everything low for a week or two before jumping back in. You can also take a light week here and then start the volume phase fairly lightly, this can work. If you are severely burned, you might need two weeks of the 2x per week. I can't really help you more than that, it's science but it's also a bit of art and since I'm not you and I don't have any reference for you the best thing you can do is go by feel. THat's why I'm always stressing for people to pay attention, be conservative, and learn in their first run through. The more data you have, the better decisions you can make.
slyder190 said:
You kind of need to go by feel. Do you feel like you are overreaching again? If you don't feel like you did in week 4 (Assuming you set the weights right) then take a single week of 2 workouts at 50-65% or some such and begin the volume again. Point being, it should be easy, work on acceleration a bit or something but you want to keep everything low for a week or two before jumping back in. You can also take a light week here and then start the volume phase fairly lightly, this can work. If you are severely burned, you might need two weeks of the 2x per week. I can't really help you more than that, it's science but it's also a bit of art and since I'm not you and I don't have any reference for you the best thing you can do is go by feel. THat's why I'm always stressing for people to pay attention, be conservative, and learn in their first run through. The more data you have, the better decisions you can make.
Absolutely not. Failure may occur in that you don't get your target number for that week but it is not the goal and you certainly don't want to be setting numbers where you are blowing every single exercise. Nothing special about failure or magic in that last rep - except for the fact that it burns the CNS significantly. Concentrate on getting better and pushing your weights up. Push yourself hard (but be somewhat realistic and willing to adjust), if you fail in week 3, carry the weight forward a week.slyder190 said:
Slyder190
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I understand the whole feel and individuality point. I'm still unclear as to what type of weights to use post cycle. Are saying 50-65% of the weight I used for week 9? Using 50-65% for the 3x3 post cycle workouts?
And with failure, what I meant was this - this past week I got 315 for 1x3 for bench, but the final rep felt to me like it was probably the last rep I was going to be able to get. Is this okay? I went up 10lbs from the previous week. Not every 1x3 set feels like this. For example, with squats I finish the set on the third rep, but I know I could still get a few more. But like i said, for a few lifts, such as bench and deads, this past week, the third rep felt like it was the last one I could get.
Madcow2 said:
I understand the whole feel and individuality point. I'm still unclear as to what type of weights to use post cycle. Are saying 50-65% of the weight I used for week 9? Using 50-65% for the 3x3 post cycle workouts?
And with failure, what I meant was this - this past week I got 315 for 1x3 for bench, but the final rep felt to me like it was probably the last rep I was going to be able to get. Is this okay? I went up 10lbs from the previous week. Not every 1x3 set feels like this. For example, with squats I finish the set on the third rep, but I know I could still get a few more. But like i said, for a few lifts, such as bench and deads, this past week, the third rep felt like it was the last one I could get.
hey madcow, i met a guy at my gym that finally knows was WSB is and was actually doin the routine. we talked for a bit, hes big strong and smart, FINALLY! anyway he said that I should add GM's and cleans to my routine. he said hes read everything on bill starr and is about to start one of his routines.
can i do the dual factor 5x5 and add cleans and GM's?
can i do the dual factor 5x5 and add cleans and GM's?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I was thinking 50-65% of your 1RM for a week. Work on acceleration a bit. Really depends on how bad you feel.
Your meaning of failure is fine. You should be working ultra hard and really pushing yourself. If you got 315 for 3 on week 8 just barely, you'd add 5 lbs (have to add weight) and make sure you have a spot for week 9.
slyder190 said:
I was thinking 50-65% of your 1RM for a week. Work on acceleration a bit. Really depends on how bad you feel.
Your meaning of failure is fine. You should be working ultra hard and really pushing yourself. If you got 315 for 3 on week 8 just barely, you'd add 5 lbs (have to add weight) and make sure you have a spot for week 9.
Slyder190
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I don't really know what my 1RMs are. How bout if i used like 75-80% of my 1x3 max?
And I had my Bf checked today. It was 6.5 roughly. I posted on the AAS board regarding some things in question, but I thin k it was fairly accurate. No wonder i can't gain weight. Your program has gotten me MUCH stronger for such a low BF though. I'm gonna maintain with regular BB style workouts after my run with your program is over, but not push myself to failure. Then when fall comes and I won't mind packing on the weight as much, I will give it another run or maybe go with DFHT to really maximize my gains with right amount of calories.
Madcow2 said:
I don't really know what my 1RMs are. How bout if i used like 75-80% of my 1x3 max?
And I had my Bf checked today. It was 6.5 roughly. I posted on the AAS board regarding some things in question, but I thin k it was fairly accurate. No wonder i can't gain weight. Your program has gotten me MUCH stronger for such a low BF though. I'm gonna maintain with regular BB style workouts after my run with your program is over, but not push myself to failure. Then when fall comes and I won't mind packing on the weight as much, I will give it another run or maybe go with DFHT to really maximize my gains with right amount of calories.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
There's a 1RM calculator linked in the table of contents to this thread:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4786862&postcount=393
Yeah, at anywhere below 8% and it's almost impossible to convince the body to add even a smidge of muscle without adding more caloric surplus. With no net weight gain and that slim a margin for calories, it's all your body can do to keep you reasonable in case of a famine. All one can really do is get stronger in a good hypertrophy rep/volume range in the big lifts, if you aren't feeding yourself - you can't expect to gain muscle especially with a margin that low.
This is a good foundation program. When you are ready to gain again you might try running 4 weeks of hard volume, deload for 2 weeks with the 2x, and then slam into DFHT, maybe then drop into a higher rep program after deloading again.
slyder190 said:
There's a 1RM calculator linked in the table of contents to this thread:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4786862&postcount=393
Yeah, at anywhere below 8% and it's almost impossible to convince the body to add even a smidge of muscle without adding more caloric surplus. With no net weight gain and that slim a margin for calories, it's all your body can do to keep you reasonable in case of a famine. All one can really do is get stronger in a good hypertrophy rep/volume range in the big lifts, if you aren't feeding yourself - you can't expect to gain muscle especially with a margin that low.
This is a good foundation program. When you are ready to gain again you might try running 4 weeks of hard volume, deload for 2 weeks with the 2x, and then slam into DFHT, maybe then drop into a higher rep program after deloading again.
Whatsup guys? Damn, this thread is STILL going, awesome. Whats up Madcow? I decided to run thru this one more time, before switching to a WSB type workout routine with box squats, exc. But im making great gains on my 2nd round of 5x5. My last time doing it, my finishing maxes were:
Squat-455
Bench-265 (yea, i know, its weakk, but it went up, thats what counts!)
Dead-455
I hit those maxes, if i recall, about 3 weeks into PCT from a cycle. I took roughly 2 weeks off, and then started up 5x5 again, and im in week 5, so its been about 2.5 months being "off". And im STRONGER than before, no joke. Guess it goes to show what proper training methods, coupled with a lot of calories can do! This time around, if i keep on how these first 5 weeks have gone, my NEW maxes should be:
Squat-500-550
Bench-280-290
Dead-525-550
I did get a Metal Viking Squat Suit for my b-day, but i only really use it and my knee wraps on attempts over 80% o my 1rm. Anyways, been away awhile, and just wanted to update you all. Be good...
Bionic
Squat-455
Bench-265 (yea, i know, its weakk, but it went up, thats what counts!)
Dead-455
I hit those maxes, if i recall, about 3 weeks into PCT from a cycle. I took roughly 2 weeks off, and then started up 5x5 again, and im in week 5, so its been about 2.5 months being "off". And im STRONGER than before, no joke. Guess it goes to show what proper training methods, coupled with a lot of calories can do! This time around, if i keep on how these first 5 weeks have gone, my NEW maxes should be:
Squat-500-550
Bench-280-290
Dead-525-550
I did get a Metal Viking Squat Suit for my b-day, but i only really use it and my knee wraps on attempts over 80% o my 1rm. Anyways, been away awhile, and just wanted to update you all. Be good...
Bionic
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
for my 2nd run of the routine i was thinking this setup
dual factor style: 5x5/deload/3x3
mon
squat 5x5
bench 1x5
clean 1x5 or 5x5
wed
squat 5x5
dead 5x5
military 5x5
pullup 5x5
sat
squat 1x5
bench 5x5
gm 1x5
rows 5x5
would this be too much?
i dont think so..
feedback please
for my 2nd run of the routine i was thinking this setup
dual factor style: 5x5/deload/3x3
mon
squat 5x5
bench 1x5
clean 1x5 or 5x5
wed
squat 5x5
dead 5x5
military 5x5
pullup 5x5
sat
squat 1x5
bench 5x5
gm 1x5
rows 5x5
would this be too much?
i dont think so..
feedback please
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Good to hear from you!
Sounds great - the 5x5 is a good all around foundation routine to segway into a more specialized WSB PL specific program. If you are interested, Tim Harold, Jr. is the mod in the PL forum over at Midwest Barbell here: http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/. Lots of knowledgable lifters and coaches very familiar with WSB. Pendlay mods the OL forum.
It's exciting making gains and pushing your lifts up. I think it becomes more rewarding when you have a plan and are executing it session to session and then reap the rewards after it's all said and done. You can tell your original thread has become a pretty big resource and it seems a lot of people are happy with it and the progress they've been making. So if you think about it - you've actually played a pretty big part in making a number of people happier and more successful in their efforts. Pretty positive contribution IMO.
BionicBC said:
Good to hear from you!
Sounds great - the 5x5 is a good all around foundation routine to segway into a more specialized WSB PL specific program. If you are interested, Tim Harold, Jr. is the mod in the PL forum over at Midwest Barbell here: http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/. Lots of knowledgable lifters and coaches very familiar with WSB. Pendlay mods the OL forum.
It's exciting making gains and pushing your lifts up. I think it becomes more rewarding when you have a plan and are executing it session to session and then reap the rewards after it's all said and done. You can tell your original thread has become a pretty big resource and it seems a lot of people are happy with it and the progress they've been making. So if you think about it - you've actually played a pretty big part in making a number of people happier and more successful in their efforts. Pretty positive contribution IMO.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Depends on how you handled the first. Remember that ideally you want to be exceeding records on both weeks 3/4. This moves the program into another realm of loading than where most people equal and then marginally exceed in week 4 and the final record week of the 3x3. The heavier and harder you load (up to the point of tolerance) and stronger the rebound effect is.
So it's not too much more work (goodmorning being the only addition and the Clean might be if done for 5x5). I don't think it will be too bad. If you aren't familiar with the clean or goodmorning this would change my opinion esp with the goodmorning as you might overload the lowerback with the deadlifts. Another option might be to replace deads with cleans (easier to recover from) , perform the rows as normal and then add GMs on Friday.
Basically, it doesn't look too bad but these are things you may want to consider and factor into your decision making.
TheOak84 said:for my 2nd run of the routine i was thinking this setup
SNIP
would this be too much?
i dont think so..
feedback please
Depends on how you handled the first. Remember that ideally you want to be exceeding records on both weeks 3/4. This moves the program into another realm of loading than where most people equal and then marginally exceed in week 4 and the final record week of the 3x3. The heavier and harder you load (up to the point of tolerance) and stronger the rebound effect is.
So it's not too much more work (goodmorning being the only addition and the Clean might be if done for 5x5). I don't think it will be too bad. If you aren't familiar with the clean or goodmorning this would change my opinion esp with the goodmorning as you might overload the lowerback with the deadlifts. Another option might be to replace deads with cleans (easier to recover from) , perform the rows as normal and then add GMs on Friday.
Basically, it doesn't look too bad but these are things you may want to consider and factor into your decision making.
Guinness5.0
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
For sure. Thanks to madcow and bionic big time.Madcow2 said:
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