Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[blut wump]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

for my 2nd run of the routine i was thinking this setup

dual factor style: 5x5/deload/3x3

mon

wed

sat


would this be too much?

i dont think so..

feedback please

Moving your two-day gap to between the day2 and day3 will have a bearing on your recovery. Your body is going to feel that your workout week has become day3/day1/day2 starting on Sat rather than 123 starting on Mon.

Just something to watch out for when you find that your Monday workout starts to feel a little harder than it otherwise might. You could slide the workouts back to do your day1 workout on Saturday.

 

[KOArtist]

Does anybody possibly have a good excel program based around the 5x5 routine? One where you can enter your present 1rm's and get all the weights/workout numbers? Thanks

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Moving your two-day gap to between the day2 and day3 will have a bearing on your recovery. Your body is going to feel that your workout week has become day3/day1/day2 starting on Sat rather than 123 starting on Mon.

Just something to watch out for when you find that your Monday workout starts to feel a little harder than it otherwise might. You could slide the workouts back to do your day1 workout on Saturday.

ya, i think ill stick with m-w-f, not do deads. and should i put gms on wed, to replace deads? or keep them on friday, seeing the cleans are on monday...

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Does anybody possibly have a good excel program based around the 5x5 routine? One where you can enter your present 1rm's and get all the weights/workout numbers? Thanks

The issue here is that you'd have to use a percentage table for weekly progression. Problem being some people need to start much lighter and some can start much heavier. The best thing to do is use the 1RM calculator or equations in the Table of Contents (last item) to back out 5 and 3 rep maxes and kind of plan around those. Start conservatively so you can make it through week 1 without much problem (that way if there are issues, you are starting low enough where you can do something about it). If you start too low, you can take bigger jumps or add an extra week before the final 2 record weeks.

Once you've done it once, you can build of your experience easily and keep track of your own percentages, ramps, and volume. If I provide a percentage chart, you can bet that it might make it easier for the initial setup but I'd be hurting people in many aspects. People will stick to it and be very reluctant to deviate. To ensure that everyone does at least decently, I'd have to be conservative and this short-changes those at the other end of the spectrum. It sucks but this is the problem with cookie cutters and the value of coaching. Every lifter is different, there can be massive differenced in tolerance even between lifters with comparable lifts, levels, ages, builds, body weights, and experience. This is the job of the coach and everyone here is for the most part their own coach so if I give them a crutch, you can bet they'll use it to limp along until it's so worn that it eventually breaks. Not a good trade.

You might check out the sample weight progression in the TOC. It's just some basic numbers but it will give you an idea of what's going on.

 

[lavi]

psst madcow don't mean to bother you but do you read your inbox at all?

also i was wondering about the value of the old powerlifting periodization which generally is something like this:

week 1+2: 2x12
week 3+4: 2x10
week 5+6: 2x8
week 7+8: 2x6
week 9+10: 2x4
week 11+12: 2x2
week 13: 1x1 with new max
I heard these were crappy and that the earlier weeks have no real carryover to the later ones and thats what pushed me away from periodization in the beginning. On the other hand, Ed Coan is a big fan of this style.

(i dunno if this belongs here, for some reason i keep getting an error when trying to make a new thread)

 

[Silvertide]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Does anybody possibly have a good excel program based around the 5x5 routine? One where you can enter your present 1rm's and get all the weights/workout numbers? Thanks

While it's important to stay within the guidelines laid out by madcow to avoid bastardizing the dual factor principles of the program, I think one of the major ideas of this program is choose weights based on feel so that the stimuli can be maximized without overtraining. For example, the amount of weight used for the light squat workout on wednesday during the loading phase can be varied according to how much volume a lifter can handle. The same applies for the 1x5 and 1x3 workouts--one lifter might make much larger jumps in weight than another lifter. It all depends on a given lifter's tolerance to volume and the amount of weight that is being moved around. Someone near their genetic potential squatting twice bodyweight for reps is going to modulate the load differently than a new lifter.

Basically what I'm saying is that you need to listen to your own body to get the most out of this program; an excel spreadsheet won't cut it. Additionally, it's really not very complicated at all. Madcow has done a great job of making it simple and understandable so that the masses can use it without a great deal of understanding or effort.

 

[Slyder190]

Yep, it's me again Madcow. I began week 8 this week. Now, I usually workout on Tues/Thurs/Sat. Because of my shedule this week I decided to do Mon/Weds/Fri. So now this week I only had 1 day of rest in between the new weeks workout schedule instead of two. With that in mind, I went up again squats from 3x3@405 to 3x3@415, but my bench was 1x3 for 315 last week, but this week, I was gonna shoot for 325. I was doing my second to last set of 3 reps and just barely got 285 for 3 reps, so I ended the set right there as I could tell by struggle on the last rep that even trying for 320 would not have been possible. Any advice on what to do next? Thanks.

 

[blut wump]

Yep, it's me again Madcow. I began week 8 this week. Now, I usually workout on Tues/Thurs/Sat. Because of my shedule this week I decided to do Mon/Weds/Fri. So now this week I only had 1 day of rest in between the new weeks workout schedule instead of two. With that in mind, I went up again squats from 3x3@405 to 3x3@415, but my bench was 1x3 for 315 last week, but this week, I was gonna shoot for 325. I was doing my second to last set of 3 reps and just barely got 285 for 3 reps, so I ended the set right there as I could tell by struggle on the last rep that even trying for 320 would not have been possible. Any advice on what to do next? Thanks.

You know he's going to tell you to take time out. I also did the 3x per week intensity phase and by the end I was drawn out and in need of deloading again. I know one guy even stretched out his weeks 8 and 9 over three weeks to make sure that he had the energy available for the intensity workouts of 8 and 9. Those days between weeks are important and skipping one has cost you some recovery. No biggie: just take a couple or three days off before your next session. This time around I'm doing the 2x per week intensity phase to compare.

 

[Madcow2]

Yup - extra days as needed. Rushing to stay on a weekly schedule during low rep record weeks is going to more than likely result in unhappiness.

 

[Slyder190]

By doing the Intensity at 2x a week, does this mean just stretching it out by adding more rest days inbtween the 3 workouts each week? This may be a good idea, because the last few days I've been so tired as well. But one question is still unanswered. Even if I do add more rcovery days, what should i try for on my next 1x3 bench day? 320 or just 315 again?

 

[Madcow2]

Wait and see how you feel. See how your warm ups go. The 2x is lower volume and lower frequency.

The 3x per week deload and intensity phase has to be carefully managed. A lot of people are coming from 3day split/bodypart 1x per week style programs so you can almost count on people not being conditioned enough to truly push this option as it's meant to be pushed. It becomes a sort of a double barrel with a brief deload in the middle which is okay but I think most people overestimate their capacity here (most are being conservative in the first loading phase and wind up with a lot less than 2 weeks of hard loading). This original post was written for a PL who has just finished Korte's 3x3 program which is significant. I takes time for the body to become conditioned to periods of work like this and unless one is willing to take extra days and cut volume as needed most will be overtaxed.

That said, it's a good learning experience and most have been happy with their gains and learned a lot about their upward limits so it's worth something there too because most won't accrue this kind of fatigue normally.

 

[Boss101]

The 2x intensity phase workout days are Mon, Wed. Would it be alright to do Mon. Thurs? Kinda seems better to have the days spread out a bit more.

Madcow what do you recommed the 3x or 2x? I never knew about the 2x a week Intensity Phase I think I might give it a try this time.

 

[Madcow2]

The 2x intensity phase workout days are Mon, Wed. Would it be alright to do Mon. Thurs? Kinda seems better to have the days spread out a bit more.

Madcow what do you recommed the 3x or 2x? I never knew about the 2x a week Intensity Phase I think I might give it a try this time.

It's on the first page of this thread (I incorporated it into my full writeup a month or so ago). It's actually recommended to go M/R. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

 

[Boss101]

It's on the first page of this thread (I incorporated it into my full writeup a month or so ago). It's actually recommended to go M/R. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Thanks, I think I'm going to try the 2x Intensity Phase.

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Yup - extra days as needed. Rushing to stay on a weekly schedule during low rep record weeks is going to more than likely result in unhappiness.

i just learned that during the last week, i have 2 more days to go.. so i wont be rushing next time. i learned an extra day of rest and food = a better workout day, rather than worrying to stay on schedule. m-w-f means nothing, as long as u get it done, within the week of course...

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

within the week of course...

This really means more in the volume phase (trying never to miss and always being on schedule not breaking the weeks). For the 2nd phase, if you're running 3x per week - extra days and longer periods are no big deal. I mean, if you are a well conditioned machine with solid built up tolerance and are hammering away, go ahead and load it all up hard but that doesn't describe most of the people using this program and that type of trainee generally isn't reading internet boards looking for training programs.

 

[lavi]

madcow, i apologize if im being pushy and you did see my post, but im guessing you happened to overlook it with all the people asking you questions (including me). um yeah, thanks

psst madcow don't mean to bother you but do you read your inbox at all?

also i was wondering about the value of the old powerlifting periodization which generally is something like this:

week 1+2: 2x12
week 3+4: 2x10
week 5+6: 2x8
week 7+8: 2x6
week 9+10: 2x4
week 11+12: 2x2
week 13: 1x1 with new max
I heard these were crappy and that the earlier weeks have no real carryover to the later ones and thats what pushed me away from periodization in the beginning. On the other hand, Ed Coan is a big fan of this style.

(i dunno if this belongs here, for some reason i keep getting an error when trying to make a new thread)

 

[Topside]

in week 9 right now. Im definitely gonna run this again, so should i start the next 5x5 at the weight that i last left the 5x5 off before the deload. My last week of the 5x5 was at 150 so should i start off the next run at it with that weight or move it up a little.

 

[Slyder190]

Wait and see how you feel. See how your warm ups go. The 2x is lower volume and lower frequency.

The 3x per week deload and intensity phase has to be carefully managed. A lot of people are coming from 3day split/bodypart 1x per week style programs so you can almost count on people not being conditioned enough to truly push this option as it's meant to be pushed. It becomes a sort of a double barrel with a brief deload in the middle which is okay but I think most people overestimate their capacity here (most are being conservative in the first loading phase and wind up with a lot less than 2 weeks of hard loading). This original post was written for a PL who has just finished Korte's 3x3 program which is significant. I takes time for the body to become conditioned to periods of work like this and unless one is willing to take extra days and cut volume as needed most will be overtaxed.

That said, it's a good learning experience and most have been happy with their gains and learned a lot about their upward limits so it's worth something there too because most won't accrue this kind of fatigue normally.

You lost me. So I should not switch to a 2x a week program? I thought that i wa supposed to take off additional days a s needed, even if that meant that I would be pushing only 2 workouts in 6-7 days time? Wrong? You confused me. You also mentioned pushing myself as most are not conditioned to thisn type of program. so what exactly do I do? More rest days in between, or push myself to get condtioned?

 

[blut wump]

You lost me. So I should not switch to a 2x a week program? I thought that i wa supposed to take off additional days a s needed, even if that meant that I would be pushing only 2 workouts in 6-7 days time? Wrong? You confused me. You also mentioned pushing myself as most are not conditioned to thisn type of program. so what exactly do I do? More rest days in between, or push myself to get condtioned?

The 2x per week deload/intensity system has you drop the day3 workout altogether and do all of the day1 exercises at 3x3 rather than a mix of 1x3 and 3x3. Since you're already into week8, you're probably better to stick with the 3x per week system (even if you don't actually do 3 workouts within a 7-day week) and just take extra days not to hammer yourself. Like I mentioned above, you could even stretch out your remaining sessions over another two weeks or whatever. Think of them as virtual weeks which might be longer than seven days.

Conditioning will come with time. When madcow mentions well-conditioned athletes, he's usually referring to elites who have years of experience with dual-factor programs. Being better conditioned doesn't really mean that this program gets easier. It could even get harder as you have to push yourself even more to stress yourself. Recovery ability is the major key and difference.

 

[Madcow2]

Yeah man, conditioning will come with time as will one's ability to tolerate greater training loads. You can only manage so much at once. This is why when people decide to try training their bodyparts 2x per week most fail horribly. The wind up taking their 1x per week program and doing it twice. Weekly load is increased by 100% instantly. They might be able to gradually work up to this load over a long period but a 100% increase almost guarantees failure unless the base was bad. A better option would be distributing existing volume more evenly and then gradually increasing it.

When I say push hard I mean within the confines of the program - which has been tailored to a degree and the load seems to be about right for most BBers as is and can be increased in several ways as needed to accomodate those who require more as they gain experience. There's no hurry though, if you are consistently gaining strength in a hypertrophy range and making progress - keep at it. Keep a journal and gradually you'll begin to find out what's right for you and dial everything in better.

 

[Madcow2]

in week 9 right now. Im definitely gonna run this again, so should i start the next 5x5 at the weight that i last left the 5x5 off before the deload. My last week of the 5x5 was at 150 so should i start off the next run at it with that weight or move it up a little.

Not at all. You can't start at your best lifts otherwise there is no room to scale/ramp upward. This is covered in my main description in the TOC but essentially you can take your previous records and put them in week 3 for the 5x5/1x5, work up to those, and exceed them in week 4. Of course this may be pretty conservative and you might be significantly stronger so play it by ear and adjust as required so that you are pushing hard in the final two record weeks.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

madcow, i apologize if im being pushy and you did see my post, but im guessing you happened to overlook it with all the people asking you questions (including me). um yeah, thanks

psst madcow don't mean to bother you but do you read your inbox at all?

also i was wondering about the value of the old powerlifting periodization which generally is something like this:

week 1+2: 2x12
week 3+4: 2x10
week 5+6: 2x8
week 7+8: 2x6
week 9+10: 2x4
week 11+12: 2x2
week 13: 1x1 with new max
I heard these were crappy and that the earlier weeks have no real carryover to the later ones and thats what pushed me away from periodization in the beginning. On the other hand, Ed Coan is a big fan of this style.

(i dunno if this belongs here, for some reason i keep getting an error when trying to make a new thread)

Yeah, I forgot to get back to you. But I actually wrote something fairly pertinent on it the other day so I'll just requote myself:

Source Post: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=5973067&postcount=9

For most advanced lifters hypertrophy and strength increases aren't going to come linearly week to week. Also when periodizing you might have blocks of training where you are gradually tapering over a longer period i.e. month to month but within any single month you might have 2 fairly taxing weeks of loading. I'm not of the mind that an old school PL style taper over a period of 10+ weeks is the best way to do it mainly because I feel that fitness drops off too significantly. Coan used to use these a lot and if you've followed him you've no doubt heard that his best lifts were never in competitions but in training. I believe he's claimed to have doubled 900 in the DL in the gym and posted some other ungodly lifts. I would say that constant tapering of volume over that many weeks decreases fitness too significantly whereas a very similarly purposed program can maintain fitness levels and gradually disappate fatigue over the course of a long period to allow the lifter to arrive at peak condition (link below talks about cycles of 3 years of relative loading and 1 year of deloading to synch with the Olympics).

Snipped

 

[Boss101]

When you do the 2x intensity phase you drop Fridays workout and do 3x3 for everything. Mondays workout is squat 3x3, bench 1x3, row 1x3 and Fridays workout is squat 1x3, bench 3x3, row 3x3.

My question is since I'm dropping Fridays workout do I just add 2 more sets to the 1x3, bench and row on Monday or do I just use the weights from the 3x3 bench, row from Fridays workout and put them into Mondays workout? I hope this is clear.

 

[blut wump]

When you do the 2x intensity phase you drop Fridays workout and do 3x3 for everything. Mondays workout is squat 3x3, bench 1x3, row 1x3 and Fridays workout is squat 1x3, bench 3x3, row 3x3.

My question is since I'm dropping Fridays workout do I just add 2 more sets to the 1x3, bench and row on Monday or do I just use the weights from the 3x3 bench, row from Fridays workout and put them into Mondays workout? I hope this is clear.

Clear as mud.
Take Friday's week4 5x5 weights to transition into week5 3x3 for row and bench on Monday. Monday then is squat 3x3, bench 3x3, row 3x3 plus appropriate warmups as needed.

I'm moving the Weds then to Thurs for light squat, deads, MP, chins.

 

[Boss101]

Thanks thats what I thought just making sure. I'm going to do the 2x a week intensity phase like you on Mon/Thurs this time around.

 

[TheOak84]

a comment on my back and delts, all these heavy rows for 9 weeks made my back and bis and grip so much stronger. just for fun, i did close grip cable rows and did the stack (300) for 5 reps, ive never in my life did over 200 for reps. and my delts are do much rounder. pressing rules. even though my delts overpower my chest, appearence wise, i dont mind. i can wait to see the gains the 2nd time around

i have 2 more days left, today and friday.. then im doin 1 week od sets of 20 for squat bench and dead.. then a week of max testing, then a week off, then start the routine over, i cant wait

 

[JL_204]

hey madcow, i caught a cold/flu so i had to miss day 1 of deload (tuesday).
I know this happened to someone else running this program but they went on anyway and still had some gains.
I plan on going back to the gym on thursday but do you think i should deload for 2 weeks before upping the wieghts, or will that just completely botch the program???

BTW it seems everytime i start to see gains in the gym i get sick. It doesnt help with the shit weather up here either. It went from 30 c last week to a rainy 5 c this week.

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

my first 5x5 routine, all workouts, and progress

Squat|220 |230 |240 |250 |250 |270 |280 |295 |305 |
Bench|255 |265 |275 |285 |295 |305 |315 |325 |335 |
Row |205 |210 |225 |225 |245 |245 |245 |225 | cgr |
Curl |85 |95 |125 |135 |145 |145 |135 |145 |125 |

Dead |220 |230 |240 |250 |250 |315 |325 |335 |335 |
Squat|175 |185 |195 |205 | x | x | x | x | x |
OHP |120 |130 |150 |160 |160 |170 |185 |190 |205 |
Chin/ |bw |5 |10 | x | x |190 |200 |215 |225 |
pulldown

Squat|275 |285 |295 |315 |325 |335 |345 |355 |355 |
Bench|205 |215 |225 |245 |255 |265 |275 |285 |295 |
Row |160 |160 |170 |185 |195 | x |205 |215 |225 |
Shrug|275 |295 |315 |325 |315 |335 |405 |405 |405 |


i havent done friday yet, but i predict thats what ill do, im redoing squats because i didnt like how i did them last friday, on shrugs the first time was 405x5, the next week 8, ill attpemt 10 this week.

i still have 2 more weeks of training before i begin the next one.

ill post my before and after maxes in 2 weeks also, after i test for them.

 

[swordfish151]

hey madcow, i caught a cold/flu so i had to miss day 1 of deload (tuesday).
I know this happened to someone else running this program but they went on anyway and still had some gains.
I plan on going back to the gym on thursday but do you think i should deload for 2 weeks before upping the wieghts, or will that just completely botch the program???

BTW it seems everytime i start to see gains in the gym i get sick. It doesnt help with the shit weather up here either. It went from 30 c last week to a rainy 5 c this week.

30 min after you PWO shake try taking in 500-1000mgs of Vit C bro...take a good multi and you should be good...good luck

 

[Boss101]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

my first 5x5 routine, all workouts, and progress

i havent done friday yet, but i predict thats what ill do, im redoing squats because i didnt like how i did them last friday, on shrugs the first time was 405x5, the next week 8, ill attpemt 10 this week.

i still have 2 more weeks of training before i begin the next one.

ill post my before and after maxes in 2 weeks also, after i test for them.

Nice results. I think I need to start pushing myself more. My 5x5,1x5,3x3,1x3 maxes are within 10-20lbs of each other. Yours are over 40lbs, I have to be doing something wrong. Did you run the 2x or 3x deloading, Intensity Phase. Again nice work

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Nice results. I think I need to start pushing myself more. My 5x5,1x5,3x3,1x3 maxes are within 10-20lbs of each other. Yours are over 40lbs, I have to be doing something wrong. Did you run the 2x or 3x deloading, Intensity Phase. Again nice work

i did the dual factor method, if tahts what ur asking.

i did start out fairly low in weight, 65% of 1RM.

 

[Boss101]

I started at about 65% as well. When did you notice your strength gains? You're natural right no PH/roids.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

hey madcow, i caught a cold/flu so i had to miss day 1 of deload (tuesday).
I know this happened to someone else running this program but they went on anyway and still had some gains.
I plan on going back to the gym on thursday but do you think i should deload for 2 weeks before upping the wieghts, or will that just completely botch the program???

BTW it seems everytime i start to see gains in the gym i get sick. It doesnt help with the shit weather up here either. It went from 30 c last week to a rainy 5 c this week.

Both super_rice and jim quini got pretty ill from the nasty late flu season bugs. Just make sure you don't bump up the weight much for week 6 (week after deload), maybe just leave it the same depending on how you feel. Also look at the 2x per week deloading phase to see if that fits in better and just use that or swap into the 3x after 2 weeks. They both made gains before and after but to be honest this is the worst time to get sick where your body is already stressed to overreaching (they got sick around week 6/7). You should be fine though - nothing you can do about it besides manage it as best you can.

 

[TheOak84]

I started at about 65% as well. When did you notice your strength gains? You're natural right no PH/roids.

yes im natural, i noticed gaines throughout the whole program. when i was doin my max for reps (on the 1x5, 1x3 days) was when i knew it worked, so about the 7th week

 

[JL_204]

30 min after you PWO shake try taking in 500-1000mgs of Vit C bro...take a good multi and you should be good...good luck

I take a multi-vit by ill add some vit c...thanks bro

Both super_rice and jim quini got pretty ill from the nasty late flu season bugs. Just make sure you don't bump up the weight much for week 6 (week after deload), maybe just leave it the same depending on how you feel. Also look at the 2x per week deloading phase to see if that fits in better and just use that or swap into the 3x after 2 weeks. They both made gains before and after but to be honest this is the worst time to get sick where your body is already stressed to overreaching (they got sick around week 6/7). You should be fine though - nothing you can do about it besides manage it as best you can.

Thanks madcow, ill do 2x for weeks 5 and 6, and ill barely bump the wieght in week 6.

 

[Topside]

My Results:

Stats before 5x5: 142 lbs. 10 % bodyfat @ 5'10
Stats after 5x5: 154.4 lbs. 10% bodyfat @ 5'10
Gained 12lbs. of muscle and put on no fat. My body feels more dense and muscular. My proportions are still the same as 142 so basically i look like a scaled up version of 142 at 154. I do look a little thicker especially in my back and arms.

Things I did not do or did differently:
Never at one point throughout the whole 9 weeks was i ever in caloric excess. I ate enough to maintain, but due to school and many other things i was not able to exceed my maintanence level of calories need.

Another thing that i did not do was 1x5 on bench and rows i did 5x5 or 3x3 both days, however i did do 1x5 on squats.

Weekly progression:

squats: 150/155/160/170/170/180/190/205/215
bench: 120/130/135/145/145/155/165/170/175
row: 120/130/135/145/145/160/170/175/180

squats: 125/130/135/145/x/x/x/x/x
deads: 175/185/190/200/200/210/220/230/240
military press: 95/100/105/115/115/120/125/130/135
chins: bw for all weeks

squats: 165/170/175/185/185/195/205/215/225
bench: 120/130/135/145/145/155/165/170/175
row: 120/130/135/145/145/160/170/175/180

I really loved this program and i gained 12 lbs. with a few flaws here and there. I am definitely running this again and i will try hard to get myself to eat as much as i possibly can and see what happens next time around.

 

[Shepherd4]

Question for Madcow2 or others:

I'm new to this board (a regular on some others). Basic stats: 34yo, 85kg (187lbs) bwt. I compete in O-lifting (95kg/125kg best lifts) and Highland Games. I've been reading this and other threads on 5x5 for some time (Great log, Blut Wump!), and am fascinated with how well you have organized the concept here.

My question is this. I'd like to incorporate the 5x5 program into my own training, but obviously I have to be able to continue snatching and clean&jerking on a regular basis. Have you had any experiences blending the two together? If not, do you have any suggestions how I should incorporate 5x5 into my current training (e.g., continue the o-lifts, but squat 3x per week according to 5x5)?

Thanks in advance!

Michael Cooley

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Question for Madcow2 or others:

I'm new to this board (a regular on some others). Basic stats: 34yo, 85kg (187lbs) bwt. I compete in O-lifting (95kg/125kg best lifts) and Highland Games. I've been reading this and other threads on 5x5 for some time (Great log, Blut Wump!), and am fascinated with how well you have organized the concept here.

My question is this. I'd like to incorporate the 5x5 program into my own training, but obviously I have to be able to continue snatching and clean&jerking on a regular basis. Have you had any experiences blending the two together? If not, do you have any suggestions how I should incorporate 5x5 into my current training (e.g., continue the o-lifts, but squat 3x per week according to 5x5)?

Thanks in advance!

Michael Cooley

im acutally doin a 2nd run soon with cleanin on monday. im pretty sure its gonna be great

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Question for Madcow2 or others:

I'm new to this board (a regular on some others). Basic stats: 34yo, 85kg (187lbs) bwt. I compete in O-lifting (95kg/125kg best lifts) and Highland Games. I've been reading this and other threads on 5x5 for some time (Great log, Blut Wump!), and am fascinated with how well you have organized the concept here.

Thanks for the compliment on the organization. That's been a big goal of mine to get it all in one place because a lot of it was pretty poorly organized and unclear before that point.

My question is this. I'd like to incorporate the 5x5 program into my own training, but obviously I have to be able to continue snatching and clean&jerking on a regular basis. Have you had any experiences blending the two together? If not, do you have any suggestions how I should incorporate 5x5 into my current training (e.g., continue the o-lifts, but squat 3x per week according to 5x5)?

Thanks in advance!

Michael Cooley

You're on the right track. The squatting base gets periodized into your competition lifts. I don't know how you train those but that could be MWF with lighter technique and other assistance work on other days. Depends on what exactly you are looking to accomplish during a particular phase and where you are in relation to a major competition. But that's it in a nutshell. Generally he might use 5x5 on both M/F for more experienced lifters and particularly for OLs the Wednesday light squat session might be better served by heavy front squats unless you have these running somewhere else separately.

To be perfectly honest, Glenn Pendlay uses this all the time and coaches a bunch of weightlifters out of Wichita, TX - a few of his homegrown guys did very well at Nationals recently. Why don't you post in the OL forum at: http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/ where he's a mod. You might want to include what kind of training you are currently doing so he and others can guage appropriate volume etc...He also mod's the Goheavy OL forum. The Wichita Weightlifting site is here: http://www.wichitafallsweightlifting.com/.

 

[Shepherd4]

I typically train 3x per week (used to be 4, but I recover better on 3). I'm a ways out from my next comp, but currently only lifting 2x per week as I have Highland Games practice on the weekend (so much for an offseason!).

For the last several months, my workouts were based on constant drilling the SN and C&J with moderate weights - 70-85% 1RM - for 10-20 singles each per workout. Occasional squatting and other work as needed. I was toying with the concept of switching my SN/CJ workouts around to something like this:

Day 1:
SN drill 10-ish singles
C&J up to a heavy single.

Day 2:
SN up to a heavy single.
C&J drill 10-ish singles.

My plan would be to increase the drilling and heavy single weights by 2.5kg per week (5lbs) through week 4, deload for a week, and then cut the drilling from 10 singles to 5 and continue pushing up the drilling singles and the heavy singles. Garnish with Squats to a heavy set of 5 and power cleans to a heavy set of 3.

Is this just too far afield from the fundamental (and productive) concepts of 5x5, or does this have some merit to it?

 

[Boss101]

My Results:......

Nice results! Topside

 

[Boss101]

yes im natural, i noticed gaines throughout the whole program. when i was doin my max for reps (on the 1x5, 1x3 days) was when i knew it worked, so about the 7th week

Cool, before you started the program what was your max 1x5 and 5x5 on the squat, bench, row, OHP and dead?

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Cool, before you started the program what was your max 1x5 and 5x5 on the squat, bench, row, OHP and dead?

bench 315
squat and dead 335

those werent my highest maxes, but my current ones.

i got sick with the flu in the winter then hurt my wrist and elbow, lost lots of strength.

my bench went from 385 to like... 275.. it sucked

couldnt row, i didnt even wanna lift anything cuz i was depressed.

this helped me bounce back

cant wait for the 2nd time

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

My Results:

Stats before 5x5: 142 lbs. 10 % bodyfat @ 5'10
Stats after 5x5: 154.4 lbs. 10% bodyfat @ 5'10
Gained 12lbs. of muscle and put on no fat. My body feels more dense and muscular. My proportions are still the same as 142 so basically i look like a scaled up version of 142 at 154. I do look a little thicker especially in my back and arms.

Kickass results. You are one of the few that has bodyfat and weight gain included.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I typically train 3x per week (used to be 4, but I recover better on 3). I'm a ways out from my next comp, but currently only lifting 2x per week as I have Highland Games practice on the weekend (so much for an offseason!).

For the last several months, my workouts were based on constant drilling the SN and C&J with moderate weights - 70-85% 1RM - for 10-20 singles each per workout. Occasional squatting and other work as needed. I was toying with the concept of switching my SN/CJ workouts around to something like this:

Day 1:
SN drill 10-ish singles
C&J up to a heavy single.

Day 2:
SN up to a heavy single.
C&J drill 10-ish singles.

My plan would be to increase the drilling and heavy single weights by 2.5kg per week (5lbs) through week 4, deload for a week, and then cut the drilling from 10 singles to 5 and continue pushing up the drilling singles and the heavy singles. Garnish with Squats to a heavy set of 5 and power cleans to a heavy set of 3.

Is this just too far afield from the fundamental (and productive) concepts of 5x5, or does this have some merit to it?

It has merit. The whole 5x5 program is basically just a template for a general periodized program that just happens to be really effective. For special purposes you can borrow or steal as you see fit. The squatting base is pretty common.

I'm guessing you'll be using MWF with day 1 and day 2 (from above) being either M or F in addition to the squats. I'm guessing the power clean work will be W? Drilling being 70-85% and heavy lifts being >85%. Maybe going up a given % per week or making sure that the load in the classic lifts is increasing week to week (i.e. a given number getting heavier and heavier or the entire group scaled upward - however you are going to do it). You might also consider heavy clean and snatch pulls at 100-110% - these won't overtax your legs either. The Wednesday workout can be heavy front squats in place of the lighter back squats. You may want to squat 5x5 heavy on both M and F and avoid the 1x5 pyramid depending on what kind of capacity you have.

As an aside, I don't know how serious you are about OL but generally those that lift big, perform the lifts a lot. Their frequency is much higher than 2-3 workouts per week. I think this is a good offseason foundation building program to push your strength levels up significantly but there will come a time when ideally you need to shift to higher frequency. The first post in this thread is what Glenn's lifters were doing while deloading previous to Nationals. Granted, these are pretty seasoned lifters who are heavily committed to the sport and have time but this will give you a good idea on the type of frequency used in the classic lifts. http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=857

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Dual Factor Theory Is Not A Program Nor Is It At Odds With HIT et al.

I wrote this on another board and thought it might be useful to refer to in the future. Most people who have kept up with this probably will find no value in reading it as it's sort of a "No Shit" piece, but since this crops up a lot it's probably very useful to keep handy.

Note: I did make some slight editing to the first post below because I felt it a worthwhile illustration of how people are already using this stuff even if subconsciously.

<---Snip
I am thinking like 20 ppl (some body builders, young, old, newbies, intermediates, various ethnics, fat and skinny etc) for EACH training theory method. So lets say we are going to benchmark H.I.T. vs Dual Factor vs. MaxOT (I think) vs. xxx.
Snip--->

Okay, obviously we've gone awry somewhere:

Dual Factor is not a workout routine or a program. It's a theory on how the body works, and to date it's the most comprehensive theory that seems to apply and fit all scenarios whereas single factor theory fails to explain a lot of very common and easily replicable scenarios.

There is no dual factor vs. HIT per se. There is dual factor vs. single factor, and the world at large resolved this a long time ago. The problem HIT people have is that they are wildly attached to the logical underpinnings of the program - which are single factor and for the most part don't really hold up in the face of much of the evidence. HIT training can clearly be used in a dual factor setting. These are mutually exclusive only to those who don't understand it.

Take for instance Doggcrap - somewhat similar to HIT (single set, train to failure) but the frequency is held constant and what he calls cruising periods (makes me think of a bunch of bodybuilders cruising around in Miatas) are actually deloading. This is how I understand DC's training anyway although I don't spend a lot of time looking at it.

So there is no Dual Factor vs. HIT vs. MaxOT or whatever to test. There are two theories - single and dual factor. Dual factor is far more comprehensive and robust, to the point where it has completely supplanted the single factor theory. Any program can be periodized, even HIT, and it's very logical and very efficient in that you can accrue more stimulus in a given period by inserting periods of lower stimulus (less frequency if you want to hold volume/intensity (%1RM) and/"intensity" [sic - preceived effort] constant). The amount of stimulus in this setting will be higher over an equivalent timeframe because you aren't taking the frequency all the way out under the assumption that it's optimal to time every single workout because you have to run an infinite chain of them without altering any of the components. The overall conditioning and tolerance levels of the athlete can also improve vastly using this method.

I think if Mentzer had known about this and it didn't force him into another amphetamine induced breakdown, he'd be on board (yeah, I'm taking a shot at him simply because I have no idea how he's garnered so much respect over the years - good sales person and ignorant customers). Makes a lot of sense and is consistent with how the body works. Very logical.

Granted you'll still argue with people that feel that constantly going to failure is horid from an efficiency standpoint because the fatigue is so excessive relative to any measurable benefit (and we'll just leave it that there's A LOT of doubt that there is any benefit to strength or hypertrophy from the isolated act of failure). You'll also face the argument that 1 set is not enough, and there's quite a bit out there on that too. BUT, you won't face the single factor/dual factor argument because it's really not central to applying HIT-style training, it just happens to be a theory that got tossed which a lot of HIT proponents are ignornant of and cling to as if it was written right after the 10th commandment and Jones and Mentzer caried it down directly behind Moses.

This is what one does in science, test theories, find out where they fail, modify or discard as needed until you arrive at one that is robust, comprehensive, and repeatedly stands up to rigorous testing. Dual factor theory is the best reprensentation we have of how the body works - at the very least it is far far better than the single factor alternative. What one does with that informaiton and how it is applied is up to them.

Obviously it's been making inroads into BBing for a while now in (I'm editing here because it's worth it - basically just breaking up the paragraph and adding a few examples):

- HST - Strategic deconditioning periods
- DC (Doggcrap) - "cruising" periods
- "Changing up your program because it's stale"
- a HIT practitioner decreasing frequency more than normal for a time until he starts to feel he's making progress again and goes back to his usual frequency
- even the Weider Instinctive Training Principle or whatever where one might decrease load if signs of fatigue or overtraining are felt

It goes on and on and most everyone is already subconsiously doing it in some form or another (albeit a keener understanding of the science allows a more refined and optimized approach). You see it everywhere it's just not well understood by the BBing population and it would be really nice if ****ing Weider and the musclemags would try to educate people a bit and give them something they can use rather than hawking supplements and promoting the drug beauty pagents that are competitive BBing.

EDIT: okay I added these because they are worthwhile and I don't ever want to type them again.

Just curious how do you explain the fact that no pro or amature bodybuilders are even talking about "dual factor" let alone using it? i mean honestly if it works so well and is soo widely known about you would think at least one of them would be trying it wouldn't you?
At least with H.I.T there was or is a handful or people who talk about and use it with great success i might add.
and please don't come back with because all bodybuilders are dumb and use drugs etc because that is ridiculous i am a bodybuilder i am not dumb and i don't use any drugs.

First, I have yet to meet a Pro BBer who can even explain or define dual factor theory. You and I both know it's not in the mags or Arnold's Encyclopedia. So primarily ignorance. It's not like this is a conscious choice for them and they selected single factor theory after thought, study, and deliberation - they have no clue there's anything else. You've been around BBing for 25 years and have never heard of it despite the fact that it is absolutely ubiquitous in virtually all sports at elite levels (essentially, the higher you go the more you find it but it's around at low levels too) - very notably those closely related like weightlifting and powerlifting. Hell, a friend from another board has told me he was suprised to find this common in equastrian training.

Also the fact that the difference between decent (and a lot isn't even that) and truly optimal training only really starts to show up very significantly further out on the spectrum so people have gotten results and get results with less than optimal programs and understanding (i.e. just because some new trainee put some size on their legs doing only machine extensions and curls doesn't mean it's optimal or going to carry them all the way to a massive set of legs). Of course at the elite end of the spectrum in BBing you have no performance criteria just hypertrophy and an ability to use any amount of anabolics over an infinite time period without restriction to compensate for sub optimal training. You might be drug free but I hope you are not naive enough to believe anabolics are only a small enhancement to hypertrophy.

But still, primarily ignorance. Ask a BBer to name a good training book. If you are supremely lucky they'll come up with something HIT related and that's the best outside of Arnold's Encyclopedia you are likely to get. You've seen my list for what are widely held as some of the best books on training available, I doubt more than the tinest fraction of BBers have ever heard of any of them. They aren't making a conscious choice - they just have no clue.

So really, a fully robust and working theory shouldn't be questioned simply because a single subgroup is massively ignorant - you don't question the world being round because some group of isolated indians in the Amazon still says it's flat. A better line of questioning would be, how has BBing and its surrounding media and publications managed to stay so far removed from the world of training at large? Consider the Aztecs not knowing about the wheel, they were separated by an ocean and no one every really thought about it. Now imagine if they were a people who lived right next to and frequently cohabitated with other groups that had it and used the wheel in plain view all the time - wagons, wheel barrows, everything. What if they existed like that and the Aztecs just never noticed or paid any attention - it certainly isn't justification for calling into doubt the usefulness of the wheel. Boggles the mind. How is this possible? Greatest conspiracy known to man? Dumb luck? It's really a great question. I have no idea how BBing has kept themselves this ignorant and isolated. It would seem to be a considerable effort at deception and misinformation but yet this is the juncture we are at and I freely admit that I am always stunned by it and can't find a modern parallel to its equal.

That is a very convincing explaination i should know because i was giving the same one to people in the gym about H.I.T 5-10 YEARS AGO (true story)

However that still does not explain why no bodybuilders at all even know about it and absolutely zero articles on the subject in anything bodybuilding related
i suspect that it might be really only thought of as a sports related training protocol
something to help pro athletes like football players and such improve their strength for their chosen sport at least that is the impression i am getting at this point .

I don't think it's rational to assume their is soo complete a conspiracy that no one in bodybuilding utters a word about dual factor, could it be because it's brand new or do they think it might be more trouble than it's worth or less effective than what they are already doing or what ? then again the government has been keeping alien space crafts a "secret" for years yet we have still heard of UFO'S so that really does not explain it either.

Never said there was a conspiracy - that was just poking fun. People already subconsciously periodize in an effort to disipate fatigue once the signs manifest:

1) I believe you stated at FI that when you start to stall out you decrease frequency and until you start to make gains workout to workout again at which time if we understood you correctly you move back towards your more normalized frequency. What do you think you are employing here?

2) People changing up routines once they get "stale". What is this?

3) Wieder Instinctive Training "Blowjob" Principle - if you go into the gym and sense symptoms like overtraining you train lighter and with lower voluem - listening to your body until you feel good again. Doh.

All this stuff is consistent with dual factor theory. It's just very rough and very poorly understood. On the better side you have HST with strategic deconditioning and DC with cruising both of which are deliberate efforts to disipate fatigue that accrues over the course of the program (i.e. fitness fatigue theory/dual factor).

Once again though - you can't assume this is a conscious choice. The BBing population knows shit about training theory. It's not like they spent any time deliberating the merits. It's ignorance. They can't name a good training book, most don't even understand what overtraining is. I've spoken to pros on multiple occassions and seen a ton of training from them. Supperior training or knowledge has nothing to do with their success. You know as much and likely more than any pro I've ever met, and you know I don't credit you as any type of authority on training. You probably train harder and are more disciplined in the gym than most of them too.

Dual factor theory is not new. It took a long time for it to become this prevalent. It's basically dominated training in the latter portion of the past century. The only place where it's not ubiquitous is BBing and there is absolutely no evidence that they are even aware of it. You are a rational person - how can one claim anything other than ignorance based upon what you see demonstrated. Hell, if Jones hadn't had an impact on a few BBers (one of whom was very outspoken) I doubt they'd know about HIT either (and this guy was in the business to sell Nautilus so it's not exactly unbiased interest in the betterment of others and helping some BBers out). In 20 years I've seen no evidence of even casual study into training on behalf of the BBing population. I actually think my joke about the conspiracy is a more valid theory than believing that dual factor theory has been understood and consciously rejected by the BBing population at large. Even if it had, this isn't exactly a respected or knowledgable population so we'd have the equivalent of a group of peasants screaming the earth is flat when every scientist, coach, and even fairly well read person believes otherwise and can provide mounds of evidence to the contrary.

Still, look at the examples above and that's just the tip of the iceberg, you don't need to know you are using it to make use of it. Common sense will tell you when you are fatigued and you know to cut back (actually, the fatigue will force you to cut back by slashing your performance and ability to train, the body is self regulated for survival). You don't need to know how the brain works to think and make decisions or know how an engine works to drive a car beyond just filling to tank and getting occasional maintenance. It isn't conscious acceptance or rejection or anything of the sort. It just explains what's going on behind the scenes. The body doesn't know whether or not you are in theoretical agreement, as long as you don't drive yourself into the ground you will get results up to a point. Now, a better understanding of the theory and how the body works will enable one to utilzie this information and more fully optimize their training (i.e. get an oil change every 3K miles rather than 12K and your car will run better/last longer/whatever - just an example). Of course just like the car - you will only truly notice the difference once your car gets older and you've beaten it down some, in training the differences are most evident at the highest levels and almost non-existant at the novice levels. Of course we've already covered why the best in BBing can sidestep this to a degree by just saturating themselves with anabolics. With copious drugs cows put on a lot of muscle just eating and standing around, never touching a weight. With unrestricted use of drugs you can keep taking more until you get results from a comparatively poor stimulus.

Come on, how hard is it to believe that fatigue is an independent factor from supercompensation? Your CNS is at the heart of all of this and makes it happen, it's not a muscle but does have limited resources. Train hard for 3 weeks and then take some time off and you come back stronger and frequently grow as a result - this is what lead to the bodypart 1x per week workouts that are so prevalent now (i'm sure you remember the 3on1off - even AM/PM stuff you used to see circa the late 1980). They simply thought they weren't allowing enough time between each training session for recovery (basically single factor). It never dawned on them that they were simply disipating fatigue and allowing the body to fully adapt to the previous training stress. Single factor can't explain delayed compensation other than saying that the final workout was soooo stimulative that all this progress could be made from it alone. Yet, when we try to replicate this phenomenal single workout, we can't get near the same results no matter how much rest or effort we spend in timing it. Something else is at play in there also and a very robust and logical explanation is dual factor theory which is nothing more than addressing the independent fatigue component. It's not at odds with any training methodology, it's just what's going on when one exposes oneself to stress of this kind. If one intends to subject oneself to this type of stress on any type of consistent basis in order to achieve a goal, it's worth understanding what's going on so you can better work within the body's parameters.

 

[cwpick]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Dual Factor Theory Is Not A Program Nor Is It At Odds With HIT et al.

I wrote this on another board and thought it might be useful to refer to in the future. Most people who have kept up with this probably will find no value in reading it as it's sort of a "No Shit" piece, but since this crops up a lot it's probably very useful to keep handy.

Source Post: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=6012897&postcount=159

So why in your opinion does the BBing world not change their way of training? I myself have tried to spread the word and have sent your post to the masses trying to at least get them thinking of other possibilities in their training.

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

i have my final day of 5x5

squat - 355x3
bench - 295 2x3, 1x5
gm - 205x3 (first time)
row - 275 2x3
shrug - 405x5

squats were better then last week, i have more concentration, and did them a bit slower.

gms were awesome, cant wait to excel on those

rows were a huge unexpected PR, about a 60 degree angle

i could have done 3x5 of bench, prolly should have.

ive decided to ditch the heavy squats on friday, and replace them with speed squats, my lower back cant handle it toward the end, unless i do half heavy squats, half speed squats. i do need some speed work for legs, besides cleans.

i have my first week of the 2nd time planned out here it is:

Squat - 240
Bench - 275
Clean - 135
shrug - 300
calf - 235

squat - 195
ohp - 145
chin - bw
bb curl - 75

speed s - 185
bench - 225
gm - 135
row - 185
calf - 235
ext - 165

i did all the same non 5x5 exercises as last time, i just didnt include them in the chart i posted here. the sets were the same, 5x5, 3x3. this may look alot to some, but its just enough for me.

lata

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

So why in your opinion does the BBing world not change their way of training? I myself have tried to spread the word and have sent your post to the masses trying to at least get them thinking of other possibilities in their training.

1) They don't know
2) Their best (the pros) don't use it and don't know - they succeed in spite of their training, not because of it (look at the late 1980s machine dominated squat and pull avoiding programs - they still looked fabulous)
3) The magazines have never published an article explaining any of this - because they don't know. And what they do publish on the subject of training is almost an embarrasment.
4) BBers have no performance criteria other than hypertrophy and are unrestricted with drug usage and dosage. You can keep taking more until whatever you are doing works. Cows don't touch a weight and add plenty of muscle tissue with enough juice and food, if you are willing to watch your diet a bit and do some type of stimulative training you can take enough juice until it works well and come out fairly good. Basically, they can compensate for suboptimal training which is why BBers typically know a lot about nutrition and drugs yet their knowledge of training is very very poor in comparision.

Not much else I can venture but that's the crux I think.

 

[cwpick]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

1) They don't know
2) Their best (the pros) don't use it and don't know - they succeed in spite of their training, not because of it (look at the late 1980s machine dominated squat and pull avoiding programs - they still looked fabulous)
3) The magazines have never published an article explaining any of this - because they don't know. And what they do publish on the subject of training is almost an embarrasment.
4) BBers have no performance criteria other than hypertrophy and are unrestricted with drug usage and dosage. You can keep taking more until whatever you are doing works. Cows don't touch a weight and add plenty of muscle tissue with enough juice and food, if you are willing to watch your diet a bit and do some type of stimulative training you can take enough juice until it works well and come out fairly good. Basically, they can compensate for suboptimal training which is why BBers typically know a lot about nutrition and drugs yet their knowledge of training is very very poor in comparision.

Not much else I can venture but that's the crux I think.

If one was to grow with a good training program then their would be less of a need for the magazines and their supplements. Keep the consumer dumb to make a profit.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

If one was to grow with a good training program then their would be less of a need for the magazines and their supplements. Keep the consumer dumb to make a profit.

I also see it as less kids turning to drugs just because they can't get reasonably attainable results and a lot more happy, fullfilled, and empowered people in the gym. Downside is that the racks will become very crowded.

EDIT - I actually just wrote a response to this question on another board. I'll copy it over later and bold it like the other. If you're interested it's worth reading.

 

[Shepherd4]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

As an aside, I don't know how serious you are about OL but generally those that lift big, perform the lifts a lot. Their frequency is much higher than 2-3 workouts per week. ...

Granted, these are pretty seasoned lifters who are heavily committed to the sport and have time but this will give you a good idea on the type of frequency used in the classic lifts. http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=857

I've been O-lifting (with occasional "demands of life" breaks) for about 6 years now, went to the American Open in 2000, and have PRs of 95kg/125kg (for whatever that's worth!). Trained with Artie Dreschler for a few years while living in NYC. So, yeah, I guess I'm about as serious about O-lifting as you can be without dedicating your life to it.

Re your other observations, yes and no. I think your later comment re Glenn's lifters (some of whom I've met at competitions) answers the question. I'm a 34 yo bankruptcy attorney with a wife, 3 children (16 months to 15 years) and a pretty demanding work schedule. 3 days a week (and occasionally 4) is about as good as it gets. Glenn's lifters are much younger, have slowly BUILT UP TO their current work load, and have made the conscious decision (and attending sacrifices) to dedicate themselves wholly to O-lifting.

That said, plenty of lifters do quite well (including guys like Tommy Kono and Norb Schemansky, back in the day) on 3-4 days a week. As the great Joe Mills said, "3 times a week is ideal, twice is better than four, once is better than 5."

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I've been O-lifting (with occasional "demands of life" breaks) for about 6 years now, went to the American Open in 2000, and have PRs of 95kg/125kg (for whatever that's worth!). Trained with Artie Dreschler for a few years while living in NYC. So, yeah, I guess I'm about as serious about O-lifting as you can be without dedicating your life to it.

Wow. Very impressive. I've never met Dreschler but I constantly recommend his book/Ency to those interested in the lifts, especially if they can't or won't locate a local coach. I probably thumb through it at least once a week myself just reading at random. You have far better sources than myself for training info. I'm flattered you even found what's in this thread useful to you.

Re your other observations, yes and no. I think your later comment re Glenn's lifters (some of whom I've met at competitions) answers the question. I'm a 34 yo bankruptcy attorney with a wife, 3 children (16 months to 15 years) and a pretty demanding work schedule. 3 days a week (and occasionally 4) is about as good as it gets. Glenn's lifters are much younger, have slowly BUILT UP TO their current work load, and have made the conscious decision (and attending sacrifices) to dedicate themselves wholly to O-lifting.

I'm in the same boat minus 2 kids (we have an 18 month old). Over 30 and very time demanding industry. Believe me, if there's anyone who doesn't take his own training seriously and hasn't for a while it's me. Sadly just as I was doing better a year or so ago I managed 3 back to back injuries that sidelined me for over a year (torn labrum, upper back, and ankle - all random stuff). I'm still working back up but I could press over 135 or walk without a boot and cruches let alone squat for a big chunk of time.

That said, plenty of lifters do quite well (including guys like Tommy Kono and Norb Schemansky, back in the day) on 3-4 days a week. As the great Joe Mills said, "3 times a week is ideal, twice is better than four, once is better than 5."

I know. From a strictly 'optimal' standpoint (assuming no time or life constraints), I prefer higher frequency and I think there's a fair amount of at least anecdotal evidence given the number of top competitors using such programs that it's likely to be supperior at least to some marginal but significant degree providing one has that kind of capacity and tolerance. But like you said - very very few aren't constrained in this manner and how much is this incremental improvement worth to you? I'm sure if you were a world level competitor in your prime without family or time constraints you'd be hesitant to leave anything on the table. For real world, supporting a family and mantaining a quality balanced life- I certainly don't manage more than 3 or at the most 4 training sessions per week (sometimes long gaps for layoffs due to work) although I've experimented with much higher frequency in the past when I was younger (with barely marginal success if any, I never built my work capacity up enough to really make use of it outside of a lot of light technique work).

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

So why in your opinion does the BBing world not change their way of training? I myself have tried to spread the word and have sent your post to the masses trying to at least get them thinking of other possibilities in their training.

FYI - I updated the main post above since it was still 'editable'.

 

[Shepherd4]

Not that impressive in the grand scheme of things - I just wanted to make sure you didn't get the wrong impression about my level of training/goals/etc. Anyway, I'm very much enjoying reading the posts on this and other threads, and look forward to blocking out the 9 weeks (probably once Highland Games season is over!) to give it a proper go.

In the meantime, I'll report periodically on my effort to apply some of the 5x5 principles to what I'm doing.

mpc

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Can this program be done with hack squats and leg presses?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

No. Squats are the prime driver of this entire program. They're the foundation. Don't butcher it. Read the table of contents and you'll find all the information you need, especially pertaining to exchanging exercises. That's a big no-no.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey madcow, I just want to make sure I understand the program correctly.


My maxes for 5 sets of 5 reps are...
Bench:210lbs
Squat:200lbs
Deadlift:230lbs
Bentover:115lbs

I just did day 1 of week 1 and it went like this... (I started at 75% of my 5set/5rep maxes)

1x5 Bench: sets 1..2..3..4..5 140lbs..150lbs...160...170...175
5x5 Squat: sets 1..2..3..4..5 150x5
1x5 Bent over row: sets 1..2..3..4..5 60lbs-70lbs-80lbs-90lbs-100lbs

Is that okay?
Here are my questions
#1. Since I performed all my sets/reps, I will add 5-10lbs( on week 2) to the lifts mentioned above. Correct?

#2. I do this until week 5. On week 5 I train with the same weights that I used on week 4 but I train with a 3x3 and 1x3 set/rep scheme. Correct?

#3 Now this is the part where I get confused...on the intensity phase...
do I... Bump the weights as much as I need to in order to train with my established 5set/5 rep maxes on week 8 and then beat those established 5set/rep maxes with 5~10+ lbs on week 9?


I've read and re-read your posts but I just can't seem to grasp the program entirely. Answering those questions will go a long way for me.

Thanks
Santa

 

[blut wump]

Your current maxes are what you are aiming for in week3 for the 5x5 exercises. Your top sets of the 1x5 pyramids should be higher than your 5x5 weights. In week4 you try to out-do these to set new maxes in everything, 5x5 and 1x5.

In week5 you take your 5x5 weights from week4 and do them for 3x3 and, if you are doing the 3x per week protocol, your 1x5 weights and use them as the top set of a 3x3 pyramid, thinking of them as 1x3 weights.

In weeks 6 through 9 you just keep incrementing the weights week on week aiming to set new records in both week8 and week9. These will be 3x3 records (and 1x3 records, if doing the 3x per week system) and will be a lot higher than your 5x5 current maxes. When you do the program again, your ultimate 3x3 and 1x3 weights from this run's week9 get plugged into your week8, or slightly more if you are able, and then you try to go even higher in week9.

Your start weights look sensible but you'll be incrementing by more than 5-10 pounds to be achieving your current maxes in week3. 5-10 pound increments are typical in the intensity phase but it's a very personal thing. Just try to be doing all you can in each of the final two weeks.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

I have a question on exercise selection for the beginners 5x5.

My current routine is as follows:

MONDAY -
Bench 5 x 5
Squat 5 x 5
BB row 5 x 5
BB curl 3 x 8

WEDNESDAY -
Squats (light) - 4 x 5
Military press - 4 x 5
Deadlifts - 4 x 5
Calf raise - 3 x 15

FRIDAY -
Squat 5 x 5
Bench - 5 x 5
BB row - 5 x 5
Dips - 3 x 5-8

Notes:
- The weight in each set is increased on each set to a target set of five.
- On Friday, provided I do five clean reps of the target weight on Monday, the fifth set consists of three reps at an increase of 2.5kg of Monday's 5-rep weight, followed by a back off set of the weight used in the third set for five extra reps.

This seems to be working well so far, but I have a question about where I could add in pull-ups?

Would I have to completely substitute them for rows? Or Could I do pull-ups on one day and rows on the other? Thoughts?

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

No. Squats are the prime driver of this entire program. They're the foundation. Don't butcher it. Read the table of contents and you'll find all the information you need, especially pertaining to exchanging exercises. That's a big no-no.

well damn that sucks, guess I won't be doing them. Everytime I end up doing heavy squats I ALWAYS hurt myself.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I would have someone check your squatting form. Also, try using a foam roller on your glutes and hammies before squatting, along with increasing your flexibility. Use only the bar, try to stay completely upright, shoulder-width stance, toes pointed forward. Keep your head high, looking up on an angle.

 

[blut wump]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

well damn that sucks, guess I won't be doing them. Everytime I end up doing heavy squats I ALWAYS hurt myself.

I think I saw in one of your other posts that you have knee problems. There was a thread from Anthrax a short while back in which bfold suggested wide and high box squats to take stress away from the knees. Unfortunately, it does pile the stress onto the hips instead if you're not used to them.

I'm currently doing a run of the program with box squats instead of normal squats but what I'm trying to get at is that with a bit of imagination you might find a way around your problem. The 5x5 program here does expect you to be getting a lot of your overall work from squats.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

well damn that sucks, guess I won't be doing them. Everytime I end up doing heavy squats I ALWAYS hurt myself.

I'd follow blut wump's advice and try to address your squatting and whatever weak links might be contributing to injuries. This is a tremendously important exercise in general so if there is no serious disability and it's a matter of technique and strengthening certain areas I'd really advise doing it as soon as possible.

That said, the squatting is really the core of this program. You can try to swap it out while you work on your technique but it generally isn't anywhere near as effective. Your other lifts will go up decently though, just overall the weight gain many experience will be slashed in a big way (but then again, you'll still outperform most shitty programs). You just can't squat at the level of this program before you work out whatever kinks are there.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I have a question on exercise selection for the beginners 5x5.

SNIP

This seems to be working well so far, but I have a question about where I could add in pull-ups?

Would I have to completely substitute them for rows? Or Could I do pull-ups on one day and rows on the other? Thoughts?

Just add them in one day a week when convenient. 3 sets of bodyweight unless you can get 3x10-12 in which case add some weight.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Your current maxes are what you are aiming for in week3 for the 5x5 exercises. Your top sets of the 1x5 pyramids should be higher than your 5x5 weights. In week4 you try to out-do these to set new maxes in everything, 5x5 and 1x5.

Your post really helped me.

I just have a small question though. On week 3, must all my 1x5 sets be higher than my maxes or will only the top sets of the 1x5 be higher than my maxes?


Thank you !
Santa

 

[blut wump]

If you think about it, it's not possible to beat your 5x5 max five times else that would be a new 5x5 max already.

Just ensure that in week3 and in week4 the top set of the 1x5 pyramid is the best 5-rep set you can do that day. You might be able to beat your 5x5 weight on both 4th and 5th set but it's more likely that you'll simply be aiming to get that top one just right unless you're a well-conditioned athlete.

I usually think of the first four sets of the 5-set pyramid as agressive warmups to launch my best 5-rep set for the day.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I usually think of the first four sets of the 5-set pyramid as agressive warmups to launch my best 5-rep set for the day.

Me too.

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I think I saw in one of your other posts that you have knee problems. There was a thread from Anthrax a short while back in which bfold suggested wide and high box squats to take stress away from the knees. Unfortunately, it does pile the stress onto the hips instead if you're not used to them.

I'm currently doing a run of the program with box squats instead of normal squats but what I'm trying to get at is that with a bit of imagination you might find a way around your problem. The 5x5 program here does expect you to be getting a lot of your overall work from squats.

No, I don't have knee problems just nagging lower back problems. That's why I'm not sure this program is right for me. I mean I can do squats but I can't go too heavy.

 

[blut wump]

Sorry about the knee mixup and sorry about the back. I first did this program to help with my back rehab but only you know what you can cope with. I hope you get your back in order so you can consider squats again.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Just add them in one day a week when convenient. 3 sets of bodyweight unless you can get 3x10-12 in which case add some weight.

So going by the program I am following as written above in post #661; on which day would you suggest I add them in? I am already in the gym for about 1hr and 15 minutes (including stretching, general warm-up and some core work twice a week) and don't really want to stay for much longer.

The most logical thing I can think of would be to add in three sets off pull-ups on Wednesday and do three sets of light squats (instead of four). However, wouldn't the total volume be to high with pull-ups added in above everything else (refer to post #661).

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

So going by the program I am following as written above in post #661; on which day would you suggest I add them in? I am already in the gym for about 1hr and 15 minutes (including stretching, general warm-up and some core work twice a week) and don't really want to stay for much longer.

The most logical thing I can think of would be to add in three sets off pull-ups on Wednesday and do three sets of light squats (instead of four). However, wouldn't the total volume be to high with pull-ups added in above everything else (refer to post #661).

If it's a time constraint, it looks like a great excuse to get rid of the calf raises . Wed makes sense. A few sets of pullups shouldn't skew anything too terribly. Add them and see what happens.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Ok, I've decided to do one set of calf raises after each workout (three times a week), added in three sets of pull-ups on Wednesday and reduced the four set squat on Wednesday to three sets. This should save some time while getting in all the exercises I want.


One other question:
A couple of weeks ago, I made my target weight for the three rep bench and back-off set on Friday, but just failed with five reps of the same weight on the following Monday. The next Friday I did the same as I did last Friday, and this Monday I tried the same weight for five reps and got about 4 and a half reps again (the spotter had to add his finger for half of the rep).

So, what should I do this Friday, should I do the same weight for three reps and back-off again, or up the weight for three reps and go for the lower weight for five reps on Monday?

Hope that makes sense.

P.S. This is the beginner's 5 x 5 I'm talking about, not the dual factor program.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Ok, I've decided to do one set of calf raises after each workout (three times a week), added in three sets of pull-ups on Wednesday and reduced the four set squat on Wednesday to three sets. This should save some time while getting in all the exercises I want.


One other question:
A couple of weeks ago, I made my target weight for the three rep bench and back-off set on Friday, but just failed with five reps of the same weight on the following Monday. The next Friday I did the same as I did last Friday, and this Monday I tried the same weight for five reps and got about 4 and a half reps again (the spotter had to add his finger for half of the rep).

So, what should I do this Friday, should I do the same weight for three reps and back-off again, or up the weight for three reps and go for the lower weight for five reps on Monday?

Hope that makes sense.

P.S. This is the beginner's 5 x 5 I'm talking about, not the dual factor program.

Bump...

 

[TheOak84]

do 3 sets of calf raises

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Ok, I've decided to do one set of calf raises after each workout (three times a week), added in three sets of pull-ups on Wednesday and reduced the four set squat on Wednesday to three sets. This should save some time while getting in all the exercises I want.


One other question:
A couple of weeks ago, I made my target weight for the three rep bench and back-off set on Friday, but just failed with five reps of the same weight on the following Monday. The next Friday I did the same as I did last Friday, and this Monday I tried the same weight for five reps and got about 4 and a half reps again (the spotter had to add his finger for half of the rep).

So, what should I do this Friday, should I do the same weight for three reps and back-off again, or up the weight for three reps and go for the lower weight for five reps on Monday?

Hope that makes sense.

P.S. This is the beginner's 5 x 5 I'm talking about, not the dual factor program.

Kind of grey area. If your other lifts are progressing, I'd try hammering at it for a bit longer. If everything goes into a stall, take a few lighter weeks training at 2x per week (maybe even use a 3x3 rep scheme and just up the weight from what you are doing now - just adapt it) and then start lower and reramp through the progression and hammer at it again for a bit. You'll probably blow right throught.

Basically, just wait and see, and then get back to us. It might be useful to examine your lifts and know where your specific weak points are and such. Just hammer away and keep watch to see what happens.

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

maxes before and after 5x5

before

squat - 335
bench - 315
deadlift - 335
military - 185

after

squat - 365
bench - 345
deadlift - 365
military - 225

i dont really know what i was rowing before, but i can now row 275 for 5

still nowhere near my previous numbers , but still major improvements.
except military, thats the most ive ever pressed in my life.

i didnt really gain weight, but i look different, bigger delts and traps, lats and quads. grip improved a hell of a lot. my form also got better.

taking a week off, i hurt my right delt testing my bench max just a lil tweak, itll prolly be gone in a week, ill be training my rotator cuffs and rehabbing knees and lower back in the mean time.

ill be posting here again when i start my 2nd run

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

maxes before and after 5x5

before

squat - 335
bench - 315
deadlift - 335
military - 185

after

squat - 365
bench - 345
deadlift - 365
military - 225

i dont really know what i was rowing before, but i can now row 275 for 5

still nowhere near my previous numbers , but still major improvements.
except military, thats the most ive ever pressed in my life.

i didnt really gain weight, but i look different, bigger delts and traps, lats and quads. grip improved a hell of a lot. my form also got better.

taking a week off, i hurt my right delt testing my bench max just a lil tweak, itll prolly be gone in a week, ill be training my rotator cuffs and rehabbing knees and lower back in the mean time.

ill be posting here again when i start my 2nd run

A couple of things - if you didn't gain any weight at all, either fat or muscle, that brings forth the question of caloric excess not being present. If there is excess and you don't gain muscle, it will go to fat. If you are gaining muscle with caloric excess, you'll have to be systematically increasing your excess as the new muscle will increase your requirement. I don't know if adding muscle was your goal but if there is no weight gain at all, there simply wasn't an excess of calories, otherwise they'd have gone to increasing your fat stores and total weight would have still increased. This is a fairly common thing here mainly resulting from people trying to stay lean and eat right at the margin - unfortunately pegging down your caloric requirement and activity levels can be a bit hard and if they eat at the razors' edge they can completely misestimate their requirement and wind up wondering why they don't grow. This was my one and only diet post that you'll find in my thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4866519&postcount=465

Also, I didn't follow it closely but in the after period you were doing some really high rep stuff like in the 20 range from what I recall and then you waited a few weeks to test your max. If you were just doing it to do it, that's one thing but this isn't really the best way to put up your best possible numbers on a meet or testing day. You want to gradually segway into some singles while continuing to lower load (i.e. further deloading). But it's going to be essential to use some singles and doubles and further slash volume and frequency to make the most of your abilities. Maybe that's better for future reference or you were just looking for a baseline this time before starting again.

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

A couple of things - if you didn't gain any weight at all, either fat or muscle, that brings forth the question of caloric excess not being present. If there is excess and you don't gain muscle, it will go to fat. If you are gaining muscle with caloric excess, you'll have to be systematically increasing your excess as the new muscle will increase your requirement. I don't know if adding muscle was your goal but if there is no weight gain at all, there simply wasn't an excess of calories, otherwise they'd have gone to increasing your fat stores and total weight would have still increased. This is a fairly common thing here mainly resulting from people trying to stay lean and eat right at the margin - unfortunately pegging down your caloric requirement and activity levels can be a bit hard and if they eat at the razors' edge they can completely misestimate their requirement and wind up wondering why they don't grow. This was my one and only diet post that you'll find in my thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4866519&postcount=465

Also, I didn't follow it closely but in the after period you were doing some really high rep stuff like in the 20 range from what I recall and then you waited a few weeks to test your max. If you were just doing it to do it, that's one thing but this isn't really the best way to put up your best possible numbers on a meet or testing day. You want to gradually segway into some singles while continuing to lower load (i.e. further deloading). But it's going to be essential to use some singles and doubles and further slash volume and frequency to make the most of your abilities. Maybe that's better for future reference or you were just looking for a baseline this time before starting again.

well, i look bigger, so i had to gain something, as i said before, i look wider in the shoulder, leg and back area. i ate alot, but i also ran alot for work. this time im gonna concentrate on eating much more. seeing im starting an apprentice school, ill have much more time to eat, and less physical work.

week 10, i did a few 20 rep sets, week 11, i tested i max with sets of 3 to warm up, working up to a max single. i did test the maxes to make the first week of my next program.

i was feeling burnt out by week 11, so i think the maxes are off by 5-10 pounds, which is ok by me.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

well, i look bigger, so i had to gain something, as i said before, i look wider in the shoulder, leg and back area. i ate alot, but i also ran alot for work. this time im gonna concentrate on eating much more. seeing im starting an apprentice school, ill have much more time to eat, and less physical work.

Yeah, activity level can be huge. Tom T. had a similar issue. He started with a new company and would up doing 20 hours of warehouse box moving the same time he started the program. He was eating north of 4000 cals daily apparently and put on neither fat nor muscle. It's a factor of activity level and unusually high workloads coming from two areas at once. It sounds like you got something out of it though - so I'm guessing if weight stayed the same and you look bigger you must have added some muscle and dropped a bit of fat to offset it. As you progress it gets harder and harder to add muscle but lower physical activity and more cals should do you nicely the next time around.

week 10, i did a few 20 rep sets, week 11, i tested i max with sets of 3 to warm up, working up to a max single. i did test the maxes to make the first week of my next program.

i was feeling burnt out by week 11, so i think the maxes are off by 5-10 pounds, which is ok by me.

So in the future if you wanted to post better singles you'd want to lower frequency and load while keeping intensity high using doubles and singles for a period of 2 weeks (i.e. not 20 rep sets which can really fatigue you). Similar to going from the volume to the intensity phase but lowering frequency some. Stretch that out (you should be feeling really good and not burnt) and somewhere within 10-14 days you should be in a position to hit your best maxes. Granted it's sort of rigged to accomodate the 3x3 phase run at 3x per week but it will get the job done well enough - probably not as optimal as it would be for your 1RM if you didn't really hammer the 3x3 and made the transition smoother but decent enough. All that said, 10-15 lbs isn't going to make a huge difference and you can adjust on the fly fairly easily when you start up again. So this is more for just giving you an idea how the whole deloading/rebounding thing is carried through to perform optimally on a certain day/period.

 

[TheOak84]

so do u think ill be weaker next time around?

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

so do u think ill be weaker next time around?

Hmmm, I didn't mean that at all - probably bad communication or rushed on my part. I meant that your true maxes under optimal conditions are probably better than what you tested at. Once you start the volume phase again, if you find yourself stronger than you believed, just adjust upward on the fly to bring your lifts up to two full weeks of heavy loading on all lifts (i.e. the final record weeks).

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hmmm, I didn't mean that at all - probably bad communication or rushed on my part. I meant that your true maxes under optimal conditions are probably better than what you tested at. Once you start the volume phase again, if you find yourself stronger than you believed, just adjust upward on the fly to bring your lifts up to two full weeks of heavy loading on all lifts (i.e. the final record weeks).

aswesome.

im actually doin lots of working with my friend, putting up and taking down tents, it works ur delts alot.. that should keep me strong during my off week

 

[TheOak84]

i really wanna add close grip on wed, i remember when i used to do military and close grip, id get so much stronger on flat bench.

would this be too much:

squat
military
pullup
close grip

i was also thinking, this program would work better for me if the workouts were every 72 hrs, rather then 48.

or is it the every other day style that makes this routine work?

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

TRAINING LOADS EXPLAINED

Some Quick Definitions - this is a good link and it's worth reading the whole thing and seeing examples plotted out, I'm pulling a few key pieces below: http://www.qwa.org/articles/tmethod.asp

VOLUME

The VOLUME of training is the total number of times the weight has been lifted. For example, at the end of an exercise if a person has performed six SETS of three REPS the VOLUME of that exercise will be 18 REPS (6 x 3).

If in a training session a person performs four different exercises each time six SETS of three REPS then the total VOLUME of the training session is 72 REPS (6 x 3 x 4).

VOLUME is a measure therefore of how much training is done.

INTENSITY

Intensity is a measure of how severe training is. If a person can lift a weight with comparative ease then the INTENSITY is said to light. If on the other hand a person has to work extremely hard to lift a weight then the INTENSITY is said to be high.

INTENSITY is usually expressed as a percentage of one's maximum. For instance if the highest weight (or maximum) that a person can lift in a particular exercise (say the " Shoulder Press") is 100Kg then a weight of 50Kg is 50% INTENSITY and 70Kg is 70% INTENSITY.

TRAINING LOAD

TRAINING LOAD is a combination of INTENSITY and VOLUME. It is the TRAINING LOAD that determines how much fatigue will be experienced after a training session and how long that fatigue will continue.

In a well organised, sensible training program training sessions with high intensity and high volume will not occur often and then only with persons of some considerable experience in Weightlifting or Weight-training. Regular training with loads that induce fatigue lasting several days may lead to over-training indicated by increasing soreness, stiffness, reduction in eagerness to train and injury.

Loads which do not result in any appreciable fatigue do not provide any stimulus to the body to adapt. Simply put ..... "no fatigue = no training". However training with low intensity and low volume does have value. Such training is used for recuperation of the body after heavy loading.

Thus by varying the amount of loading in training the athlete can force adaptation by the body and allow for recuperation. The varying of the training load is an important concept in training methodology.

i was also thinking, this program would work better for me if the workouts were every 72 hrs, rather then 48.

or is it the every other day style that makes this routine work?

It's the amount of load over a period. If you space the workouts more (decrease frequency) you significantly decrease the load (volume/intensity yielding a total poundage number) over the same fixed period. It's probably helpful to calculate load in the form of total pounds lifted in the core lifts over a single cycle (1 week/3 workouts). You'll find a significant decrease is total pounds lifted over the same week if you opt for lowering the frequency. This results in less stimulus (also less fatigue because of more recovery time) but the idea is to get as much proper stimulus as you can (overreach) and then deload and disapate the fatigue and allow adaptation. This is why load calculations are used so frequently in athletics and OL, you can compare the total amount of work being done between periods (obviously the lifts have to be comparable like not leg press poundages vs. squat or some such).

Something you might find interesting. Compare a program where one squats 5x5 3x per week with a given set weight (similar to a heavy loading phase of the BS 5x5 except that the Wed workout isn't deceased for simplicity). The calcs are below and you will see exactly why the novice 5x5 program with the same frequency doesn't overtrain or accrue too much fatigue and why the other version does. The load being applied is drastically different. This is also why I generally have someone use the ramping method to a single heavy set of 5 one day per week and then as they gradually become more experienced and can tolerate higher loads add volume by moving toward 5x5 with constant weight on M/F rather than just the Monday workout. It's a happy medium and makes the program more doable for a wider range of people - this is kind of important since BBers these days tend to favor the 1x per week frequency on each lift and haven't really built up much capacity to handle a lot of load. It's still a hard program but most experienced lifters find it doable.


Basic Math:
-Assume a squat max of 240,
-60% of 1RM is 144 to be used when determining the most significant sets applied
-Assume we only look at the squat but realize that this type of difference will accrue through all the core exercises resulting in a similar total difference.

5x5 with Constant Weight:
5x5 with 200 = 5000 lbs per session
3 sessions per week = 15000 lbs load
Weekly Total Counting > 60% Weights = 15000lbs
<note - if you did the 10% less on Wed you'd wind up with 14500lbs so not worth making the math hard for this example>

5x5 with progessive weights using the novice BS 5x5:
MONDAY:
120x5 = 600
140x5 = 700
160x5 = 800
180x5 = 900
200x5 = 1000
Total = 4000lbs
WEDNESDAY:
120x5 = 600
140x5 = 700
160x5 = 800
160x5 = 800
Total = 2900lbs.
FRIDAY:
120x5 = 600
140x5 = 700
160x5 = 800
180x5 = 900
210x3 = 630
Total = 3630lbs
Weekly Total = 10530lbs
Weekly Total Counting > 60% Weights = 6630lbs

Novice Weekly Total = 10530 (70% of Periodized 15000lbs load)
Novice Weekly Total Counting > 60% Weights = 6630lbs (44% of original 15000lbs load)

So just from pure poundage we are at about 70% and this assumes no warmups for the straight 5x5. This is actually much more significant because many of the sets being done are at intensity levels (%of 1RM) that are not very taxing and really don't play much of a factor (some training systems only use lifts over a given % like 70 or 80 to calculate loads and this slashes a lot of the ramped weighting scheme's total i.e. 60% 1RM or greater lifts come to 6630lbs vs. 15000lbs which is now 44% of the original 5x5 load).

 

[TheOak84]

ok, so 3x a week at this intensity is designed to work the muscle just enough for it to be used again in 48 hrs? i think i got it. i keep forgetting insensity and frequency play big roles.

and about the close grips?

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

ok, so 3x a week at this intensity is designed to work the muscle just enough for it to be used again in 48 hrs? i think i got it. i keep forgetting insensity and frequency play big roles.

and about the close grips?

Sort of. Try not to think about stimulus as a single workout and recovery as immediately post workout before you stimulate the muscle again. Instead consider the entire block of loading as the stimulus. You could increase the frequency significantly but you wouldn't last the 4 weeks because fatigue would be too great (you'd last for a bit though which is why it's not workout to workout recovery but a matter of continuous buildup). Plenty of olympic lifters around the world doing some type of squatting 3-6x per week and doing the classic lifts (both of which involve recovery from the full squat position) 6-9x. That means their legs are getting hammered on a daily basis and often multiple times per day. Might be useful to read for perspective (also consider that the regimen listed is heavy deloading before a major competition): http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=857

As for the closegrip, I saw this above:

would this be too much:

squat
military
pullup
close grip

I'm guessing no deads? With deads the Wed workout gets to be pretty grueling. Might be a better alternative to try to put a few sets of closegrip on the 1x5 bench day. I don't know that giving up pulling from the floor completely - maybe you know how to do high pulls, powercleans, or snatches to reserve some recovery. Another option is to run a bench assist mesocycle for 3 weeks of loading and 1 deloading where you'd employ a lot of this work to specifically target the bench and maybe (or not depending on how much emphasis you plan to have on it) ease back a bit on the other lifts if that's desirable for you.

 

[TheOak84]

you must have missed one of my posts, this is my 2nd routine:

squat
bench
power clean
shrug

squat
military
pullup
closegrip?

squat
bench
gm
row

 

[JL_204]

Results

I didnt gain much wieght from the 5x5 because i was extremely active throughout the program(Work, school, sports, etc.). I gained 4 lbs so im now at 198 lbs. I didnt eat all that much so i know the wieght gain could've been higher.

I had some pretty good strength gains despite not eating much.

Squat (atf) before= 225x1
Now= 250x3 (I got this with ease yesterday)

Bench before= 215x1
Now= 235x3

BBrow before= 135x5 (it was very new to me)
Now= 205x3 (My upper back has changed tremendously)

Ill have my day 2 stuff tomorrow.

BTW i had to take week 5 off due to being sick. i did week six 2x deload, then jumped right back into it.

I cant wait to do this again as i kinda messed up a few starting wieghts.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

you must have missed one of my posts

I do remember it now that I see it but it's kind of a lot to keep everyone's programs and progress constantly at the forefront. Looks very reasonable though to add the closegrips there.

Given the last few posts I should probably mention that frequency of performing a given lift during a training cycle has a lot of benefits. In most cases you will get significantly stronger in a lift that you are training 2x per week or more than you will doing something 1x per week. Think of it as the body learning to specialize and build skill. This is why the BBer programs where they shotgun blast every known exercise to hit a muscle from every angle and contraption in the gym aren't a good way to go about things. Make sure you consider this when slipping in extra lifts and altering the layout.

 

[TheOak84]

i was thinking, 3 weeks of close grip, 3 weeks of dips, then the final 3 weeks of close grip?

would this help, hurt or not matter in terms of gaining strenght on the bench press?

i was thinking about doin bis again, prolly mon and fri.

while the triceps will be hit all 3 days

the only reason for the biceps is, when i row i try to not use my biceps until everything else gives out.

of course they get used regardless. but ive seen people rowing 225 for reps of 10-15 with huge guns, and a flat small back. they biceps overpower thier lats.

i try to avoid that. i was thinking something simple, bb curl on monday, db curl on friday. 5x5. and on wed, ill be doin pullups, 5x5, but using everything, back and bis to full potential. and really focusing on speed. i think it will be beneficial for rowing.

 

[blut wump]

Unless you're struggling with lockout on the bench, don't worry about your triceps. Don't worry about your biceps at all unless you want to buff them up and that's better left until after a mass/strength-building program.

No offence intended, but the biceps are such a tiny muscle group that they're best left to do all the recovery they can get from being hit with rows, chins, pullups etc. Give them their punishment between programs.

 

[HunterUk]

My university gym does not have a squat rack so I have been doing smith machine squats since I started the single factor program 10 weeks ago. I find with these going as low as possible forces my knees out over my toes and I can't get a good feel for the lift as the vertical range of motion is so rigid.

Do you think that perhaps deadlifts would be better than smith machine squats? Or maybe sub them in instead of the squats one day? Don't really want to mess with the program but smith squats seem less than ideal!

 

[Madcow2]

The smith sucks. I don't really know what to tell you because the deadlift can be much more taxing on the body (there is a thread in the table of contents entited 'Increasing the Deadlift without Deadlifting Take 2' that talks about why a lot of elite lifters avoid it). This program makes the assumption that you have access to an adequate gym. You can experiment with other stuff but if you can't squat - you can't really do this program (or any real training in my opinion). I'd try to locate something off campus or ask the football coach where his athletes train because you need to do squats. Sorry to bum you out.

 

[HunterUk]

Eek ok thanks for the answer will look into it!

 

[devilman13]

I've been looking into this and I was wondering if this substituting on the 2nd workout would be OK. instead of deadlifts do clean and press and instead of military do incline press. everything else stays the same. reasoning behind this is I have back problems (torn ligaments & heriniated disk) and have found that I can't do heavy deadlifts.

 

[Madcow2]

Cleans or high pulls are fine on Wednesday (the original layout had cleans in place of rows on M/F and high pulls on W but a lot of people aren't competent in these lifts). The only issue might be your pressing power if you can clean more than you can press in which case I'd avoid the 2 part clean and press, and simply use the clean (or use the push press if that helps). Also, if you are already pressing overhead there is no need for inclines. Just perform a single pressing movement on wednesday whether it's inclines or some overhead work.

 

[devilman13]

Cleans or high pulls are fine on Wednesday (the original layout had cleans in place of rows on M/F and high pulls on W but a lot of people aren't competent in these lifts). The only issue might be your pressing power if you can clean more than you can press in which case I'd avoid the 2 part clean and press, and simply use the clean (or use the push press if that helps). Also, if you are already pressing overhead there is no need for inclines. Just perform a single pressing movement on wednesday whether it's inclines or some overhead work.

Ok so instead of deadlifts do cleans and do military as sep. exercise?...ex. day2 is squats, military, pullups and cleans right?

Also, as I am finishing up a cycle and would like to try this 5x5 while "off" how long should I wait before I try this program. I have read the article in regards to cycling and this program but thats not the route I'd like to go. Just want to do this while off cycle to try and maintain or maybe increase strenght au naturale (keep my fingers crossed on this one)..Thanks in advance...

 

[Sub-Zero]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

madcow-

i failed on the intensity portion...i got 2 (and i guess a half) reps instead of the 3.

i think it was more of a mental issue than a strength issue, but anyway, how do i go about dealing with this

do i
1) do the same weight next week and get 3
2) take off five pounds and try
3) add 5 pounds to the weight(instead of usual greater increases), even though i failed, so this way i increase a little bit, without going too far ahead