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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

A few issues I'd like to clarify before starting the program:

- Is the deadlift stiff-legged (Romanian) or bent legged?

- Just to clarify and make sure I understand everything, tell me if what I have written is correct:

The weight should increase each week with the exception of the transition from the loading phase to deloading phase (and if you require an extra week in the deloading phase) and you should aim to hit your PB set of 1 x 5 in week 3, correct?

So, for example, if your PB for one exercise is 200, your program for that exercise of 1 x 5 could look like this:
Week 1: 1 x 5 = 150 (start of loading phase)
Week 2: 1 x 5 = 175
Week 3: 1 x 5 = 200
Week 4: 1 x 5 = 215
Week 5: 1 x 3 = 215 (start of deloading phase)
Week 6: 1 x 3 = 230 (start of intensity phase)
Week 7: 1 x 3 = 250
Week 8: 1 x 3 = 260

- One more thing, the program which I was following for the past month didn't have much structure to it. I was basically doing 4 sets of my PB of 6 reps for each of the core exercises once a week, meaning that I am unsure of what my PB for one pyramid set of 5 clean reps is, but it would not doubt be higher than what I currently lift. Should I still lift below my current PB for weeks 1 and 2, or would it be alright to start at my PB for the 1 x 5?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

|D_J^B_J| said:
A few issues I'd like to clarify before starting the program:

- Is the deadlift stiff-legged (Romanian) or bent legged?

- Just to clarify and make sure I understand everything, tell me if what I have written is correct:

The weight should increase each week with the exception of the transition from the loading phase to deloading phase (and if you require an extra week in the deloading phase) and you should aim to hit your PB set of 1 x 5 in week 3, correct?

So, for example, if your PB for one exercise is 200, your program for that exercise of 1 x 5 could look like this:
Week 1: 1 x 5 = 150 (start of loading phase)
Week 2: 1 x 5 = 175
Week 3: 1 x 5 = 200
Week 4: 1 x 5 = 215
Week 5: 1 x 3 = 215 (start of deloading phase)
Week 6: 1 x 3 = 230 (start of intensity phase)
Week 7: 1 x 3 = 250
Week 8: 1 x 3 = 260

- One more thing, the program which I was following for the past month didn't have much structure to it. I was basically doing 4 sets of my PB of 6 reps for each of the core exercises once a week, meaning that I am unsure of what my PB for one pyramid set of 5 clean reps is, but it would not doubt be higher than what I currently lift. Should I still lift below my current PB for weeks 1 and 2, or would it be alright to start at my PB for the 1 x 5?


Deadlift is standard not romanian. No touch and go except on warm ups. Every rep of every set settles and deweights completely back on the ground between reps (you don't need to let go and fully reset but the floor should totally be supporting the weight and a little adjustment between reps is common).

Keep in mind that you are scaling to 1x5 records in week 3 (what you have above) as well as independently scaling to 5x5 records in week 3. The bench, squat, row are the only ones with both 5x5 and 1x5 and both of these protocols will be records in week 3 and 4. The Wednesday exercises, all 5x5, also scale to records in weeks 3 and 4 (of course the Wed squat is just a lighter % of your Monday so it isn't really part of this).
 
question for Madcow2

First off, I love this program and always thought Bill Starr was the best. I am curious though why you say bench pressing can not be replaced with parallel bar dips. I know Bill Starr has never recommended them in place of benching but always wondered if he would find them to be an acceptable replacement. Ever since reading McCallum and trying them in my routines, I've preferred them slightly over benching for adding mass. This post isn't meant to start an argument and I have no intention of posting an argumentative reply, I am just curious.
 
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Re: question for Madcow2

edergrimek said:
First off, I love this program and always thought Bill Starr was the best. I am curious though why you say bench pressing can not be replaced with parallel bar dips. I know Bill Starr has never recommended them in place of benching but always wondered if he would find them to be an acceptable replacement. Ever since reading McCallum and trying them in my routines, I've preferred them slightly over benching for adding mass. This post isn't meant to start an argument and I have no intention of posting an argumentative reply, I am just curious.

More than anything, I'm trying to limit people overly messing with the program. For the overwhelming majority of people today, they will take something, customize it, and then blow it up in the process. I can't really speak to whether Starr would approve of them or not. I think that the dip was in question to replacing the Wednesday pressing workout which is generally overhead or incline and I wasn't for that at all since I'm a big believe in overhead work and dipping is 180 degrees removed. As far as replacing flat bench, I guess people could try it. Dips can be rough on the shoulders for some people. They also aren't as configurable in that you are stuck with bodyweight and above for the duration whereas in the bench press you can go as low as just the bar if need be.
 
Madcow, can the program be repeated a few times and still produce progress? And is there a point where you must up the calories to increase strength as you progress? I stay fairly lean while bulking and am week 5 of 6 weeks of the volume phase (although I did drop the Weds squats for the final 2 weeks). I decided to run the volume phase for 6 weeks as I had to get a feel for the program and had to estimate a few of my 5x5 maxes based on my 1x5 maxes). I have undoubtedly added strength, but my bodyweight has remained relatively the same. Thanks.
 
You shouldn't have dropped the Wed squats while you were still loading. If you chart out your volume per week, you just made it dip and with no real reason. The nature of loading is that you don't back off on it until the end. That is the stimulus.

To be honest, all one can really do is add capacity in a good range. If you are getting stronger in the core lift in the range of 5x5 - that's progress. It might not be linear to weight gain but there is nothing you can really do about. You might find you just explode later on or maybe in a few months as you continue to add capacity. Also, most of the gains will show up in the deloading period generally so that might also be a factor and another reason why you don't drop the volume in any way during a loading phase as you've just messed with the stimulus some and sent it in the wrong direction. This is also why it's best not to skip workouts unless there's a really good reason because it screws up the protocol.

Another thing is diet. You can get stronger under calorie restriction but it's very hard to grow. You are already very lean so your diet is already at the margin. It's not like some 18% BF guy holding his diet constant where the body will take the excess calories going to maintaining fat and use some of them to build some muscle - net result being the newly build muscle will now increase caloric requirements and lower excess fat. Unfortunately, you have low fat so your diet is at the margin and concievably there is no excess to allow for building muscle. You can either count calories or just eat more or whatever but you are lean because you don't consume an excess and you can't grow if you don't have an excess - sort of a catch 22 situation. If you've only seen strength gains so far I'd venture this might be an issue. It might not be but if you were eating an excess over 5 weeks you'd either have more muscle or be fatter by now and neither seem to be the case.
 
Im currently doing the single factor (n00b :D) one and Im having trouble setting the top 5rep weights for the Wed (light day) workout. How much %of my 5RM should the weights be? Should I add weights on this day everyweek just like I do on Mon and Fri?

I've also added 2 sets of non failure bodyweight pull ups after Mon and Fri workout.
 
I know I'm not supposed to change anything, but if I wanted develop my deadlift more, could I change around the squat and DL next cycle?

So it would be:

Monday
DL
Bench
Row

Wed
Light DL
Squat
Pull-up
Mil Press

Fri
DL
Bench
Row

How about it? Too much back work?
 
So should I just add the squats back in the final week next week? I hear ya on diet. I was taking in enough to maintain my weight even prior to doing this progam so I wanted to test the waters and see how resonded to new stimuli first before upping the calories. Summer is coming anyway, so it's just as well. I do have a one day where ieat whatever I want all day and I do put away a lot on that day. I may also add one cheat meal somewhere esle during the week. (Did this after I started the program). I do also do cardio2-3x a week also. I aim for 3 days, but the last few weeks I've had a busy schedule.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Gobus said:
I know I'm not supposed to change anything, but if I wanted develop my deadlift more, could I change around the squat and DL next cycle?

So it would be:

Monday
DL
Bench
Row

Wed
Light DL
Squat
Pull-up
Mil Press

Fri
DL
Bench
Row

How about it? Too much back work?

Actually you can't. The deadlift is just too taxing for most people to do this with. Read this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4783202&postcount=388
Then you might want to substitute clean pulls for your bent rows on M/F. There are links in the first post of this thread to exercise descriptions and videos. In there you will find a high pull video and a clean pull video I believe. A clean pull is just an explosive high pull that culminates in a big shrug at the top.

EDIT - I will throw in the caveate that this can work for some people in some circumstances. Mainly a newer lifter not lifting much weight, being very well conditioned and not being weak in the lower back at all. That's a pretty small subsection of people there and really you are best off just learning some different types of pulls rather than pulling pure deads all the time. There is Stephen Korte's 3x3 program in the archives at www.deepsquatter.com. It's purely bench, squat, and dead done 3x per week arranged somewhat similar to this program with volume/intensity type phases (loading/deloading). You'll probably have to read all the articles although they are fairly similar but it works well, just a real bear of a program.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

slyder190 said:
So should I just add the squats back in the final week next week? I hear ya on diet. I was taking in enough to maintain my weight even prior to doing this progam so I wanted to test the waters and see how resonded to new stimuli first before upping the calories. Summer is coming anyway, so it's just as well. I do have a one day where ieat whatever I want all day and I do put away a lot on that day. I may also add one cheat meal somewhere esle during the week. (Did this after I started the program). I do also do cardio2-3x a week also. I aim for 3 days, but the last few weeks I've had a busy schedule.

Yeah - add the squats back. The thing with the one day cheat meal is that your body is a reflection of your diet over time so it's something of an average of your total intake. A cheat day a week becomes the average for your weekly intake. To be honest though, either add just a bit each day or just keep pounding the weights and don't worry about it. When you add the calories, you will see the muscle.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

harhar said:
Im currently doing the single factor (n00b :D) one and Im having trouble setting the top 5rep weights for the Wed (light day) workout. How much %of my 5RM should the weights be? Should I add weights on this day everyweek just like I do on Mon and Fri?

I've also added 2 sets of non failure bodyweight pull ups after Mon and Fri workout.

Tell me what exactly you are missing in this:
* On light day, Squat the first 3 sets of 5 just as you did on Monday, and then do a fourth set of 5 with the weight used on the third set. An extra fifth set at this same weight can be added. Incline bench is done using the same scheme, working up to 2-3 sets of 5, but with about 70-80% of the weight flat bench, to accommodate the leverage difference of the incline. High Pulls are done by feel, but usually pretty heavy.

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something here.
 
The overheadpress (replace incline) and the deadlift (replace highpulls).

So overhead press is lower than bench due to leverage but high enough to be a 5RM? And deads are supposed to be heavy but how much?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

harhar said:
The overheadpress (replace incline) and the deadlift (replace highpulls).

So overhead press is lower than bench due to leverage but high enough to be a 5RM? And deads are supposed to be heavy but how much?

I see what you are saying. I'd have to say just go by feel. Hopefully if you are using this program you arne't hoisting major tonnage here but just train each fairly heavy. See if this impacts your other workouts or not. If it has a negative impact on Friday pressing or squatting post back and let me know but most people should be okay for a while.

EDIT - I will add, try to make progress over time and consistently add weight to the bar in each exercise.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:
When you add the calories, you will see the muscle.

this, combined with the proper stimulus (the 5x5), is all that what madcow has said it would be.

when i was smaller, in the 155s range, i thought i was going to be stuck there forever. i just wanted to get stronger, so badly. wasn't happening, i was working hard, deadlifting, squatting, benching.. there was a point where i dropped benching completely, i didn't bench for 2-3 months. i only did deadlifts, squats, and chinups. it worked for a while, then it stopped. i never got heavier, but i got stronger - until that stopped too.

i really thought i was stuck.

however, i was introduced to the whole concept of loading phases and such and in 1.5 cycles, i've gained 20lbs. i've actually begun to think of ways of how to keep my weight down in the future.

truly, if you face the music (to all the people that think they are "hardgainers" like i did) and just lift smart, lift heavy, then eat lots (in that order) you will have to fight the weight off.
 
Madcow, I'm still stuck on 3 things. Can this program be repeated a few times to keep yielding results?

And, I guessed some of my maxes a bit (mostly 5x5 maxes). I have was going up 5% each week in the weights being used and in the lasty week (week 5), I jumped the weights a bit more than this as at week 4 at 95% of my 1rm and 5x5rm I was getting the weights rather easily so I made a bigger weight increase.

And finally, you say we should be breaking records in weeks 3 and 4 (if doing 4 weeks volume), does this imply that in week 3 we should be hittinf weights above our original maxes and that in week 4, we should be beating the pr from week 3?

Thanks.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

slyder190 said:
Madcow, I'm still stuck on 3 things. Can this program be repeated a few times to keep yielding results?

Sure, it's periodized and people have no problem running it back to back. That said, what you really want to be doing at some point is figuring out where your weak links are and striving to improve upon them. Maybe this is a customized 9 week program with 2 phases. Maybe it's 4 weeks. You might find this topic from the table of contents a good read on how to organize your training over longer periods. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643459&postcount=186

All that said, if you are getting consistently good results and don't seem to be stagnating anywhere - maybe it's best to continue plain vanila for a while rather than monkey with things too much.

slyder190 said:
And, I guessed some of my maxes a bit (mostly 5x5 maxes). I have was going up 5% each week in the weights being used and in the lasty week (week 5), I jumped the weights a bit more than this as at week 4 at 95% of my 1rm and 5x5rm I was getting the weights rather easily so I made a bigger weight increase.

Guessing and getting stronger within the volume phase is fairly typical for lifters who are new to this style of program and the really beneficial stimulus of concentrating on improving in a limited amount of very effective lifts and not using a 1x per week frequency. It makes your target weights move and it can be tough to bogey on the fly. That said, it "ain't rocket science" so just do what you did, pay attention and adjust accordingly. It would be a shitty program if you had to nail everything perfectly to see results. This is also why I haven't provided a % guide. The population of people using it is too broad, people need to learn for themselves and they won't pay as much attention and just follow the "plan" week to week thus not learning 1/2 as much about tailoring programs for their own tolerances.

Also, as you get used to programs like this, you won't be seeing intra-loading period progress like this. It will show up more and more in the intensity period as your body recovers from the loading.

slyder190 said:
And finally, you say we should be breaking records in weeks 3 and 4 (if doing 4 weeks volume), does this imply that in week 3 we should be hittinf weights above our original maxes and that in week 4, we should be beating the pr from week 3?
Thanks.

Ideally, yes but there has to be some flexability. If you are very experienced and have current relevant maxes setting it up this way will work fine. You could also take your previous records, put them at week 3 and exceed at week 4. Some people might also require more time to build up to a few weeks of heavy loading, some less. People new to this generally start light getting pretty close to their records on week 3 and then exceeding on week 4. More experience lets you equal or exceed on week 3 with little issue of weights moving around. Some people might also find they can load heavy for 3 weeks - most can't but there are certainly some that do in the world although they tend to be very experienced.

So for your purposes and running a second cycle back-to-back, take your previous records in each lift and put them at the first week of loading (week 3). Obviously, if the 3x3 phase made you a lot stronger this might need to be adjusted.
 
ok madcow
i have some opinions on the program so far, and let me see if you agree with me on this:

very good power program
but may not be the ideal program for a body builder?
i kinda feel like my chest and shoulders dont get enough work
but one thing i am likeing, is my back and quads suck, and this program seems to be great for them

could i be safe in thinking that this program would be best run for a bber once or twice a year, sandwhiched between more hst style training?
 
As far as a whole year program, everyone who isn't a novice or making great consistent progress is best served by altering their programs during different periods throughout the year. While some people can hammer at the same thing and make progress for longer than others, if you want optimal progress you are going to have to tailor your training cycle to your own needs. I think the link in my previous post to the TOC topic 'Beyond the 5x5' or some such is a better way to approach it.

The real benefit from this program other than putting a lot of size on people and making them strong (plus breaking the bullshit BBer training faux pas against squatting 3x per week and such) is that it is a very easy and clear illustration of dual factor training and proper periodization. In addition, as one selects weights and runs through the program, people begin to learn about their tolerances. The whole thing is meant to be more instructive rather than any type of "just do this forever" although it does provide some great benefits and a fantastic foundation.

For your specific question on Chest - I don't know. Everyone is different to a degree (but no where near to the degree that people use in BBing to cop out on having any type of organized training program). If your best 1x5 and 5x5 on the bench along with best overhead 5x5 are increasing consistently, it's fairly hard to argue that you aren't getting enough work to make progress. You could try changing the bench pyramid on Friday to a constant 5x5 repeat of Monday. That would increase the amount of work if you wanted to stick with this structure and felt that your bench required more volume to be optimal. Maybe something in your structure doesn't provide as much pec emphasis in benching as it does for others. Not sure, but this is what designing longer training cycles and programs are all about - to address weaknesses whether strength imbalance or cosmetic.

Anyway, a BBer could certainly run this as a foundation style program and use different training styles in the middle (but don't go back to the bodypart 1x per week training to failure crap). Perhaps focus on higher rep ranges for a period - the strength and power in this program will segway nicely into improved 8-10 rep performance over a period. They could also design 4 week mesocycles around addressing weak points or whatever other special need was there. This might be a decent read for a few people: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=50&postcount=5
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

DUAL FACTOR HYPERTROPHY TRAINING
PART I - Understanding the Basis and Theory
Courtesy of Matt Reynolds -
http://www.readthecore.com/biography/matt-reynolds.htm

Sources:
This was cut/pasted from this document which provides a much clearer spreadsheet view of a sample 8 week program than this forum allows: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc
CORE Performance Article Pt 1: http://www.readthecore.com/200501/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm
CORE Performance Article Pt 2: http://www.readthecore.com/200502/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm

Thread Sequence:
PART II PART III

Madcow2 said:
I thought this might be a useful addition for some people. This is a bit more complex than the dual factor 5x5 but it's another very solid program as well as an illustration of how this can be implemented in your macro training cycle plan. There is also a lot more room for specialized lifting which might allow some people to address weak points while staying within the parameters of an existing, well laid out program that emphasises hypertrophy and has been proven to get results in a wide range of lifters. Particularly for those who might not be comfortable yet in creating their own specialized meso and macrocycles to accomplish this. All that said, the assumption is being made here that you have a pretty solid foundation - if you aren't at that point single factor or more simple dual factor workouts (i.e. the BS/JS182 5x5) remain your best bet until you reach that point. This is probably a worthwhile read on how this program can be organized and implemented over a longer period into an organized macrocycle type layout: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643459&postcount=186

It's worth noting that quite a few people have run this in conjunction with the dual factor Bill Starr/JS182 based 5x5, alternating between them or in some combination (i.e. shorter periods of each). They've been quite happy with the results. I'll also note that there are a few points that I'm not in total agreement with i.e. wide stance PL squats being absolutely supperior for development to all other variations but this is minutia for the most part and I'm not even sure if Matt still holds that view although it is more popular in the PL world and there is no definitive right answer.

As far as answering questions or theory on this program, I'm going to defer those to Matt. His contact info is above and he regularly posts at http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/ along with a bunch of other very knowledgable coaches and athletes. That said, please make sure you've read everything including the more recent CORE source articles linked above so he doesn't get bombarded with a bunch of questions that are already provided for.



Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training:


Note: first off, I'd like to thank AngelFace, JohnSmith, and Gavin for contributing to this article.

There are basically two accepted theories in the world of weight training. One is called Supercompensation (or Single Factor Theory), and the other is called the Fitness Fatigue Theory (or Dual Factor Theory). Bodybuilding tends to follow the Supercompensation way of thinking, while virtually every field of strength and conditioning, athletics, etc. follows the Dual Factor Theory. The reasoning that almost everyone involved in strength training adheres to the Dual Factor Theory is because there is scientific proof that it works, not to mention that the eastern bloc countries that have adhered to this theory have kicked America's ass at every Olympics since the 1950s.

Bodybuilding, for years, has basically ignored Dual Factor Theory and opted for Single Factor Theory training. In the following paragraphs, I hope to prove to you why Dual Factor Theory should be accepted, taught, and adhered to in the world of bodybuilding as well as all other athletes concerned with strength and conditioning.

Note: The one exception to the rule of "all bodybuilding programs based on Supercompensation" is Bryan Haycock's HST, which, from Bryan's own mouth, says that it wasn't based on dual factor theory, although he hit it dead-on, on all points. What I didn't care for personally with HST is that the same amount of importance is placed on the 15-rep phase and the negative rep phase as with the 10 rep and 5 rep phases. The thickness that rep ranges in the 3-8 range provide are far more impressive to me personally than those who focus on 12-15 rep schemes and countless negatives. I also wasn't excited about working the entire body in one workout. The CNS drain was unbelievable. – However, in saying that, HST is the best I've seen compared to everything else out there, and I did make good progress on it.

The Supercompensation Theory has been, in the bodybuilding community, the most widely accepted school of thought. However, people are beginning to see it as a bit too simplistic (the strength and conditioning and athletic movements have never accepted this practice). The theory itself is based on the fact that training depletes certain substances (like glycogen, and slowing protein synthesis). Training is seen as catabolic, draining the body of its necessary nutrients and fun stuff. So to grow, according to the theory, the body must then be rested for the appropriate/ optimal amount of time, AND, it (the body) must be supplied with all the nutrients it lost. If both of these things are done correctly, then theoretically your body will increase protein synthesis and store more nutrients than it originally had! (i.e. – your muscles will be bigger!)

So obviously the most important part of this theory is TIMING! (Specifically concerning the rest period). But that's where the problem comes in. "If the rest period was too short, then the individual would not be completely recovered and as such the training would deplete the substance even more, which over a period of time would result in overtraining and a loss of performance. If the rest interval were too long then the training would lose its stimulus property, and the individual would recover completely and lose the window of opportunity to provide the stimulus again. If the interval is optimal then improvements surely follow" (AF).

"So, given the one factor theory (Supercompensation), which looks at physical ability as, of course, one factor, you are left with the problem of timing workouts to correspond to the supercompensation wave... anything sooner or later will lead to a useless workout"(JS).

Another issue concerning the Supercompensation/ Single Factor Theory is that of FAILURE. Almost every program that utilizes this type of training advocates the use of muscle/ CNS failure, and then fully rest, and then beat the crap out of your muscles again, then rest, etc (I'm referring to the "work one bodypart per day, six days per week" program as well as HIT, popularized by Mike Mentzer). The issue is that it has now been proven that total failure is not necessarily needed for optimal growth. It has been shown that leaving a rep or two in the tank can and will yield the same results AND therefore a shorter rest period will be needed and less accumulation of fatigue will still be present by the time the next training session rolls around.

A Better Way…


The Dual Factor Theory, also called Fitness Fatigue Theory is somewhat more complex than the Supercompensation Theory. The theory is based on the fact that an individual's fitness and fatigue are totally independent of each other. This theory is entirely dependant on one's base conditioning (or physical preparedness or fitness). The thing is, when you have a high level of fitness (or conditioning/ preparedness) this level changes fairly slowly. This is because over the short term fitness does not fluctuate often. (However, fatigue can change (increase or decrease) fairly quickly when compared to fitness).

"The theory works like an equilibrium in that training will have an immediate effect on the body (similar to supercompensation). This effect is the combination of fatigue and gain (again, remember the equilibrium thing). So after a workout, because of the stimulus that training provides, preparedness/conditioning/fitness increases (gain) but at the same time will decrease due to fatigue from the training."

"So, the outcome of the training session is the result of both the positive and negative consequences of the training session. These two outcomes depend on time. By striking the correct balance, fatigue should be large in extent but short in how long it lasts. Gain on the other hand should be moderate, however, and is longer in duration. Typically the relationship is 1:3; if fatigue lasts x amount of time, then gain lasts 3x amount of time."

"Given the two factor theory, which separates physical fitness or preparedness and fatigue, you see that the timing of individual workouts is unimportant to long term gains (unlike Supercompensation)... in other words regardless of whether or not fatigue is or is not present, fitness can and will still be increased" (which is the goal)...

So what you get concerning the two-factor theory is a period of peaking fatigue (maybe 6 weeks), followed by a period of rest (maybe 2 weeks deloading, then one or two weeks of total rest). You view entire weeks and maybe months as you would have viewed just one workout with the single factor theory. For example, in the single factor theory, one workout represents a period of fatigue. But, in the two-factor theory, 6 weeks would represent a period of fatigue. In the single factor theory, a day or two (up to a week) represents a period of rest. But in the two-factor theory, up to four weeks may represent a period rest.

"What is important to note is there is almost universal agreement among scientists and athletes and coaches in all sports EXCEPT bodybuilding that the two factor theory is correct and the single factor theory is not correct and is in fact suitable only for beginners to follow when planning training."

"It is also important to note that most athletes in most sports are experiencing some level of constant fatigue ALWAYS, except for maybe a couple of weekends a year, when they are peaking. Training takes place daily against a backdrop of fatigue". Therefore, you should be able to see why, concerning the single factor theory, it would be very hard to ever fully recover, unless you sat on your ass for two weeks and did nothing."
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

DUAL FACTOR HYPERTROPHY TRAINING
PART II - Application
Courtesy of Matt Reynolds -
http://www.readthecore.com/biography/matt-reynolds.htm

Sources:

This was cut/pasted from this document which provides a much clearer spreadsheet view of a sample 8 week program than this forum allows: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc
CORE Performance Article Pt 1: http://www.readthecore.com/200501/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm
CORE Performance Article Pt 2: http://www.readthecore.com/200502/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm



Applying it to the real world…

When setting up dual factor periodization for the bodybuilder, it is important to remember to plan for periods of fatigue and periods of rest. During a fatigue period (say, 3 weeks), you slowly build up fatigue, and never fully recover. Then you have a period of recovery (another 1-3 weeks) where you train with reduced frequency, volume, or intensity. (My preference is to keep intensity high, while drastically lowering volume and slightly lowering frequency.) At any rate, the fatiguing and recovery periods most likely won't be as drastic for a bodybuilder as it would for a strength athlete because there will be no peaking phase for performance (at no point are you required as a bodybuilder to perform a competition based on strength). Additionally, bodybuilders need less fatigue and more recovery present at any given time (outside of the actual training sessions) when compared to strength athletes.

So here's what I've come up with…

• The general layout of the program will be to train upper body twice per week and lower body twice per week (so, we'll be providing double the training stimulus of typical one bodypart per day programs). The workouts will be fairly intense, heavy on free weight compound exercises, lower volume (per workout, and drastically lower volume per bodypart), and higher frequency than normal bodybuilding workouts. (Now, again, this is individual). Some of you won't be able to handle this amount of frequency yet, because your fitness level sucks. Some powerlifters, OLY lifters, and other strength athletes train up to 20 or 30 times each week (and most of them a minimum of 10 times per week) because their fitness level is so high. – If you find this level of frequency is too high, shorten the loading period and lengthen the recovery period, at first. Or, reduce the frequency to training three times per week, on a Mon, Wed, Fri, scheme, etc. – until your preparedness is increased, and your body can handle the frequency.)

The real difference is in failure and periodization (this is so each body part can be trained twice per week as opposed to only once)…

• No exercise should be taken to failure when using submaximal reps, however, all exercises should be taken to within one or two reps of failure by the final set of the exercise. If muscular failure is reached, there is no way you can train with an increased frequency without overtraining.

• Periodization will be individual to the lifter. However, for the sake of this program a 3-week period of loading followed by one week of recovery is given. (Additionally, if one isn't fully recovered after the one week recovery period, and fatigue still builds, increase the recovery period to two weeks, or have a "recovery month" every 4 or 5 months where you'll have one week of loading and three weeks of recovery during that month to allow your body to fully recover.)

• Progressive Overload is absolutely imperative in every exercise, making sure that load or reps are increased, or that rest periods are decreased to keep intensity high (during loading phases). (Of course, during the recovery phases, if volume is lowered, and frequency reduced slightly, then intensity can and should still be kept high, although the load should be reduced just slightly (approx. 10%) as there is no reason to attempt to set records through progressive overload during this time of recovery.)

• Many different rep ranges will be used. I am partial to the use of rep ranges in the 3-10 range, as it tends to give the lifter a great balance of extreme muscle thickness (like the look of a bodybuilder with a powerlifting background) as well as great neural efficiency.

A. Use of Neural Efficiency (as well as some Myofibral Hypertrophy) occurs in rep ranges of 1-3. (Neural Efficiency increases the percentage of motor units that can be activated at any given time. There is little to no effect on size but increases strength will be great. Little to no protein turnover occurs in this rep range as load is too high and mechanical work is too low.)

B. Mostly Myofibral and Sarcomere Hypertrophy and very little Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy occur with rep ranges of 3-5. (Sarcomere hypertrophy increases contractile proteins in muscle thereby increasing strength directly and also size. Book knowledge suggests that growth here will be mostly myofibral/ sarcomere hypertrophy and will be accompanied with strength gains in other rep ranges and improvements in neural efficiency. Therefore this is perhaps the best rep range for increasing strength. Better balance of load / work done for hypertrophy so no surprises there.)

C. Myofibral, Sarcomere, and Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy (lots of growth as well strength gain within this rep range with little transfer to 1rm) occur with rep ranges of 5-10. (Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy does not directly increase strength but can affect it by increasing tendon angle at the attachment - but of course it increases size.)

D. Some Sarcoplasmic with little Myofibral and Sarcomere Hypertrophy occur in rep ranges of 10-15. (More fatigue and a greater extent of waste products are associated with this rep range. Possible increase in capillary density.)

E. Capillary density increases with little Sarcoplasmic growth with rep ranges above 15. (Muscle endurace begins to become a factor (but who needs that?). Also, waste products are intense – lactic acid buildup to the point of making some individuals sick.)


Here's the breakdown:

Session A (Monday):
* (-)Low Incline Barbell Press/ Closegrip/ 5 Board Closegrip
Dips (Low Chest Dips Followed by one set of Tricep Dips)
Dumbell Extensions
(-)Seated Military Press
Dumbell Overhead Press
Barbell Rows
(-)Pulldowns
Upright Rows
(-)Barbell Curls
Dumbell Curls
Forearms (one superset of wrist curls, reverse wrist curls, and twists)

Session B (Thursday):
(-)Decline Dumbell Press
Flat Flys
*Push Press
(-)Pullups
Low Cable Rows
Lateral Raises (rear, followed by side), Rotator Work (front, side, and rear)
Skull Crushers
(-)Barbell Curls
(-)Pushdowns
Hammer Curls
Forearms (one superset)

Lower Body:

Glutes
Hamstrings
Quads
Calves
Lower Back
Traps
Abs, Obliques

Session C (Tuesday):

*Squats
*Goodmornings
*Cleans
Hack Squats (Old school barbell style are my favorite)
Straight Leg Deadlifts
Calves
Reverse Hypers
Abdominals
Obliques

Session D (Friday):

Squats (lighter)
*Deadlifts/ Trap Shrugs
Front Squats
Glute/Ham/Calf Raises
Donkey Calves
Reverse Hypers
Abdominals
Obliques
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

DUAL FACTOR HYPERTROPHY TRAINING
PART III - Sample Program
Courtesy of Matt Reynolds -
http://www.readthecore.com/biography/matt-reynolds.htm

Sources:
This was cut/pasted from this document which provides a much clearer spreadsheet view of a sample 8 week program than this forum allows: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc
CORE Performance Article Pt 1: http://www.readthecore.com/200501/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm
CORE Performance Article Pt 2: http://www.readthecore.com/200502/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm


Madcow2 said:
Easiest to view by downloading the complete MS Word doc available at the following link - there's just no way I'm typing in the ..... to make this legible on this forum software: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc



Here's the spreadsheet layout of the program set up on an 8 week periodization schedule; 3 weeks of loading, followed by a week of deloading, followed by three more weeks of loading, followed by another week of deloading...

Session A: Monday Typical Week A Week B Week C Week R (rest) Week D (high) Week E Week F (low) Week R (rest)
rduc load 10% rduc load 10%
*Low Incline Bench Press 3x5 (-) max 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 2x12 3x5 (-) 3x3 3x5
Closegrip Bench Press 1x8 1x8 1x8 1x8 1x12 1x8 2x5
5 Board Closegrip Bench Press 1x8 1x8 1x8 1X8 1x10 1x8 2x3
Chest Dips, then Tricep Dips 2x10, 1x10 2x10, 1x10 2x10, 1x10 2x10, 1x10 1x10, 1x10 1x15, 1x15 2x10, 1x10 2x5, 1x5 1x10, 1x10
Dumbell Extensions 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 1x15 2x10 2x6 2x10
Seated Military Press 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 2x12 3x5 (-) 3x3 3x5
Dumbell Overhead Press 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x15 2x8 2x6
Barbell Rows 3x8 3x8 3x8 3x8 3x8 2x12 3x8 4x3 or 3x5 3x8
Pulldowns (wide grip) 2x8 (-) 2x8 (-) 2x8 (-) 2x8 (-) 2x15 2x8 (-) 3x5
Upright Rows 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x15 2x10 3x8 2x10
Barbell Curls 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 2x15 2x10 (-) 3x6 2x10
Dumbell Curls 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x15 2x8 2x6
Forearms 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45

Session B: Thursday

Decline Dumbell Press 3x8 (-) 3x8 (-) 3x8 (-) 3x8 (-) 2x8 2x15 3x8 (-) 1x5, 1x4, 1x3 2x8
Flat Flys 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x8 1x15 2x8 2x6 1x8
*Push Press 3x3-5 3x3-5 3x3-5 max 3x3 2x12 3x3-5 3x3 3x3
Pullups (wide grip) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 2xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 2xfailure (-)
Low Cable Rows 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Lateral Raises (rear, side) 2 sprsets x10 2 sprsets x10 2 sprsets x10 2 sprsets x10 1x15 2 sprsets x10 2x8
Rotator Work 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 1x15 2x10 2x10
Skull Crushers 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5 2x8
Barbell Curls 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 2x15 3x5 (-) 2x6 3x5
Pushdowns 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x15 2x10 (-) 3x6
Hammer Curls 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x15 2x8 2x6
Forearms 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45



Session C: Tuesday Typical Week A Week B Week C Week R (rest) Week D (high) Week E Week F (low) Week R (rest)
rduc load 10% rduc load 10%
*Squats 5x5 max 5x5 5x5 3x5 5x5 5x5 5x3 3x5
*Goodmornings 3x5 3x5 max 3x5 2x5 2x10 3x5 3x3 2x5
*Cleans 3x5 3x5 3x5 max 2x5 1x15 3x5 3x3 2x5
Hack Squats 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Straight-Leg Deadlifts 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Calves 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 2x20 3x10 5x5
Reverse Hypers 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10
Abdominals 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 2x10 2x20 3x10 4x5 2x10
Obliques 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x20 1x10 2x5 1x10

Session D: Friday

Squats 3x10 3x10 2x20 3x10 2x10 3x15 3x10 3x8 2x10
*Deadlifts, then Trap Shrugs 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 2x5 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 2x5
Front Squats 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Ham/ Glute/ Calf Raises 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 1x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 1x10
Donkey Calves 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure
Reverse Hypers 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10
Abdominals 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 2x10 2x20 3x10 4x5 2x10
Obliques 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x20 1x10 2x5 1x10

• Every eight weeks, the exercises with an asterisk (*) should be performed to their respective 1RM (rotate the weeks that you are maxing out on each exercise so that you don't find yourself maxing out on multiple exercises in one workout.) (The reason for maxing out on certain exercises is to increase neural efficiency as well as myofibral hypertrophy).

• Mild use of eccentrics during loading weeks (one or two reps at the end of the last set, occasionally) can be used for the exercises marked with a (-) (This is because tension is increased with eccentrics due to the fact that fewer MUs are recruited, and therefore more tension is put on each individual recruited MU. With added tension comes additional protein degradation and therefore a greater degree of hypertrophy during the recovery period.)

• Exercises with an asterisk (*) should be performed explosively, while exercises WITHOUT an asterisk (*) should be performed in a controlled, comfortable manner, but not superslow.

• Every six weeks, perform squats in session D with 2 sets of 20 reps for increased lactic acid threshold and capillary density. (and it's just a good overall shock to the system.)

• Every six weeks, an entire week will be performed with lower load and higher reps than normal (this is to allow for capillary density to increase, connective tissue strengthening, additional sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and increased lactic acid threshold) and every six weeks a heavier load and lower reps than normal (for increased neural efficiency and myofibral hypertrophy) will be performed.

• Stretch following each exercise session to help aid in recovery and possibly induce hyperplasia (the exception is to stretch each bodypart immediately after its last exercise in Upper Body Session A).

• Intense rest and recovery techniques should be utilized on a daily basis (10 min. cardio blasts, ultra-light load high rep work for flooding an area with blood 24 hours after working that area, contrast showers, massage, water consumption, stretching, etc. – although, occasionally these should be avoided to allow the body to respond to a higher state of fatigue.)

• Concentric-Only work should also be utilized for increases in preparedness, general recovery, and additional means of quality training and weight gain without fatigue – good choices would be sled dragging, medicine ball throws, wheel-barrow walking, etc. These extra workouts should be performed approximately 6-12 hours following training and according to the preparedness of the individual lifter. (However, these are great ways to build preparedness/fitness with very little fatigue buildup.)

• Do the required sets and reps even if you are still a little sore from the previous workout. (Now, if you have a horrible case of DOMS, this is a different story – but that most likely means you are training much too close to muscular failure than needed).

• First of all, change up this program so it works best for you. The one thing I hate about most programs is that the author says to follow his program to a tee or you won't gain a pound. Everyone is different with different needs; so as long as you are following the two factor theory, and know what you are doing, adapt this program to fit your needs. (In saying that, don't bastardize the program. It is well put together and will put solid mass on your body in a relatively short amount of time. The exercises have been carefully chosen, so if you change the exercises at all, make damn sure you know exactly what you are doing; i.e. - don't substitute an anterior deltoid exercise for a medial deltoid exercise just "because they both work the shoulders." This would be a major mistake. Keep the balance there.

• Workouts should be kept brief (about 1 hour). Get in there and get out. Additionally, working smaller, antagonistic bodyparts together can be beneficial. (i.e. – during barbell curls, instead of resting for a couple minutes between sets, do sets of tricep pushdowns.)

• You must continually adapt your workout by changing rep schemes, rest periods, volume, intensity, etc. (occasionally changing an exercise or two) in order to avoid accommodation by the body.

• Chest and Tricep exercises can be left to the discretion of the lifter. Pick exercises you like, but make sure you pick compound exercises, as well as exercises that work your weak areas. (In saying that, I have come up with a very well-rounded chest and tricep routine)

• Incline Barbell press should be performed with a wide grip, elbows out. Closegrip and 5 Board should be performed with close grip and elbows in. (5 board press is where you glue or nail 5 2"x6" boards together (about 18" long) and bench press with someone holding the boards on your chest. The range of motion is short (3-4 inches probably), but the strength of the triceps and elbow joint explode!)

• I view Incline Barbell Press, Close-grip bench, and 5 Board press as one exercise that basically works both the chest and the triceps simultaneously. The lifter starts with 3 sets of Inclines, and then finishes off with a set of close-grips and a set of 5 board.

• Chest Dips and Tricep Dips are also viewed as one exercise that works both the chest and triceps. Start with 2 sets of deep chest dips, and finish with a set of triceps dips, where you only perform the upper part of the dip.

• You can substitute pull-throughs for reverse hypers if you don't have access to a reverse hyper machine. (if you don't know what a pull-through or a reverse hyper is, go to www.elitefts.com and check the "ask Dave" section, and go to the FAQ. You'll find a description there. Additional descriptions are http://www.t-mag.com/articles/182squat2.html

• Glute/ Ham raises are a must. (If you don't have access to a glute ham machine, go to http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/226rene.html and find out how!)

• Work forearms any way you want to. The given set and rep scheme is what I use more for prehab because I struggle with tendonitis.

• Barbell Rows are best by "starting with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows. This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak. The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast." (JS)

• Pullups are to be done to failure, but not absolute muscular failure. At 260 pounds I can't do very many, so I just do them until I can't complete another full rep, and then I stop.

• Rotator work is given purely as prehab for myself. I use what is called a shoulder horn for this work, so I don't tear my rotator cuff up when handling heavy weight during bench press.

• For squats, I squat with a wide stance, and sit way back, which tends to put the emphasis on my glutes and hamstrings more so than my quads. I find that greater overall leg development is achieved by squatting in this manner. If you are purely a quad squatter, you most likely won't need an additional quad exercise.

Madcow2 said:
Got Questions?
Just to reiterate from the first post:
"As far as answering questions or theory on this program, I'm going to defer those to Matt. His contact info is above and he regularly posts at http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/ along with a bunch of other very knowledgable coaches and athletes."

That said, please make sure you've read everything including the more recent CORE source articles linked above so he doesn't get bombarded with a bunch of questions that are already provided for.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

hey madcow :)

if i wanted to keep doin what im doin, can i?

its working greatly, im getting used to squatting 2-3x a week and i love it.

lets say i keep doin the 5x5 routine, will i hit and walls along the way?

isnt it designed to break barriers and not get stuck in ruts?

of course i will vary it each time, but keeping the basic movements in play...

im interested in the last setup u posted, how every once and a while you do a 1RM or a few sets of 20, i think id like that. how can i incorperate that into what im doin now?

or would that derail the routine? :/
 
You know, it's rare in life that you are enjoying yourself and getting great results. My advice would be don't mess with it too much until you've milked it for all it's worth (from what you are saying the volume and protocol seems to be right for you). You can run multiple 5x5 cycles back to back without any issue and it's fairly easy to do. Just see if you need to deload after the intensity phase (esp if you did the 3x per week and peaked your strength), take your final week records in each phase of the previous cycle and put them in the first record weeks (i.e. week 3 and week 8 respectively for volume and intensity), and adjust as required. When this gets mentally stale or when gains slow down (keep in mind you won't be gaining as much in the volume phase and most will show up in the intensity phase) then either try DFHT or build something for yourself using the templates or a generic load/deload protocol - both can be done in as little as 4 weeks or as long as 8-12 depending upon how long you choose to ramp the weights to a final 1-3 week heavy loading and then deload and/or peak your strength afterward.

As far as a 1RM for a few sets of 20 - you can't do your 1RM for more than your 1 rep by definition so I'm thinking you mean some 20 rep sets. In the context of the 5x5 you could do them before beginning a new 5x5 phase, maybe take a light week with 2 workouts and hammer them out. One can also sometimes benefit from taking your 5 rep max and doing it for 5x5 with long rest intervals so that you can get it done. That's a nice plateau breaker to try sometime.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

The Snatch
Ran accross this on my PC today. I believe I originally got this right here on Elite from Arioch who did the BP, Squat, and DL stickies in the PL forum. This is a pretty solid writeup so I'll post it here:

Some videos are here: http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/videos/video_index.htm


Executing the Snatch. The snatch is the first lift executed in weightlifting competition. Less weight can be used than in the clean, as it must be pulled much higher. A wider grip is used to decrease the height somewhat, but there is still a significant difference. Also, it is far more difficult to rise from the bottom of a snatch, as the bar is balanced overhead, instead of firmly racked on the shoulders. This requires much greater strength in the upper back, especially the rhomboids. The snatch can be executed with either a squat or a split style, but only the far more common squat style will be discussed.

Phase One: Set Up: Feet about shoulder width apart, with the toes turned slightly outward. The set up should be like the most powerful set up for a vertical leap. Shins should be almost touching the bar, and the bar should be over the metarso-phalangeal joint of the feet (where the toes join the foot). The knee angle should be between 65 and 90 degrees. Arch the back. Grip at least one and a half times shoulder width, and use a hook grip. Make sure the arms are straight, flex the triceps if necessary, as pulling with bent arms can lead to elbow injuries and bicep tears. The shoulders should be either directly above or slightly in front of the bar. Look upward only slightly. The torso should be inclined between 25 – 60 degrees with respect to the platform. This phase begins when the athletes applies force to the barbell and it ends when at the instant of barbell separation from the floor (IBS). The object of this phase is to create a rigid kinematic chain between the athlete and the barbell, referred to as the athlete-barbell system, and tension between the athlete and the floor, which will contribute to the acceleration of the barbell. At the conclusion of this phase, there should be no slack between the body and the barbell.
By the numbers:
Note: Where there are three numbers separated by a slash, such as x/y/z, this would indicate difference for athletes 150/170/190cm tall.
First Phase:
Knee angle at start of pull: 45 – 90 degrees
Knee angle at end of phase: 80 – 110 degrees
Arm angle with respect to bar: 49 – 63 degrees
Torso inclined: 25 – 50 degrees


Phase Two: Preliminary Acceleration. Begin by straightening the legs, and the hips joints, which will move almost vertically during this phase, which will cause the torso to lean forward a little and the shoulders to move farther in front of the bar. Maintain the arch in your back at all times. The head will move back to a vertical position. Smoothly pull the bar from the deck and begin to accelerate it. Do not jerk it from the platform. The bar will continue to accelerate even after the legs have been straightened. The barbell should move toward the athlete slightly, which will alter the combined center of gravity (CCOG). The greater the distance between the COG of the body and the bar at the start, the greater the barbell shift during this phase of the pull. This phase will end when the legs have straightened, but the feet are still flat on the platform. The objective of phase two is to move the barbell upward and begin acceleration in preparation for phase three. The majority of the work in this phase is executed with the legs. This phase generally begins when the knees have straightened to 110 degrees, and ends when the knees have reached an angle of 145 to 155 degrees. This phase is initiated by a contraction of the quadriceps, glutes, and erector spinae. The weight of the athlete will shift from just behind the ball of the foot toward the heel at the end of this phase, as the latissimus dorsai contract to pull the bar in toward the lifter.

Second Phase:
Knee angle at start of pull: 80 – 110 degrees
Knee angle at end of phase: 145 – 150 degrees
Torso inclined: 30 degrees
Hip angle: 85 – 90 degrees
Average time elapsed at end of second phase: .4 – 0.55 seconds
Bar speed at end of second phase: 1.3/1.45/1.6 m/sec.
Barbell shift toward athlete: 3/6.5/10 cm
Barbell height at end of second phase: 46.5/52.7/58.9 cm


Phase Three: Rebend: Often called the adjustment or the amortization phase. This phase is used to position the athlete-barbell system (ABS) for the final explosion of the pull. Continue to straighten the torso, which should cause the hips to move forward, and rebend the knees slightly, this should occur when the bar is about 1/3 of the way up the thigh (past the knee joint). The rebending of the knees should end when the knees reach an angle of 125 – 135 degrees. This allows the athlete to move closer to the bar, with a resultant decrease in the resistance of the movement, and a more favorable CCOG.

Third Phase:
Knee angle at start of phase: 150-155 degrees
Knee angle at end of phase: 120 – 125 degrees
Shins inclined toward the platform: 70 – 75 degrees
Torso inclined: 58 degrees
Hip angle: 105 – 110 degrees
Elapsed time of third phase: 0.125 seconds
Average distance of shoulders in front of bar: 6/6.8/7.6 cm
Barbell speed at end of third phase: 1.22/1.37/1.52 m/sec
Barbell shift toward athlete: 4/8/12 cm
Barbell height at end of third phase: 52.5/59.5/66.5 cm


Fourth Phase: Final Acceleration: This is when the explosion should take place. (the shoulder girdle, bar, and metarso-phalangeal joints should all be in the same horizontal plane) Jump, violently straightening the legs and torso, rising onto the toes and shrugging as hard and quickly as possible. The elbows should remain extended and pointing outward during the shrugging movement. The barbell will move away from the lifter during this phase, describing a slightly forward arc, until it is moving nearly vertically. The body should be slightly hyperextended at the completion of this phase, which will compensate for the forward shifting of the barbell, allowing the CCOG to remain over the support (the toes). The purpose of this phase is to impart as much force as possible, to achieve as great a height as possible. The bar should continue to rise on its own as the lifter begins the next phase. At the initiation of this phase, the erectors, glutes, and hamstrings are the major agonists. The erectors will work not only to maintain a rigid spine, but to begin the acceleration of the barbell as the torso moves rapidly erect. The glutes and hamstrings contract in conjunction with the erectors to extend the hip joint. As the athlete jumps, the quadriceps contract strongly, and the trapezius is used to supply additional force at the top of the pull.

Fourth Phase:
Knee angle at start of phase: 120 – 125 degrees
Knee angle at end of phase: 175 – 180 degrees
Torso inclined: 0 – 10 degrees away from platform
Shins inclined: 0 degrees
Hip angle: 180 + degrees (hyperextension)
Elapsed time of fourth phase: 0.2 seconds
Barbell speed at end of fourth phase: 1.65-1.8/1.78-1.93/1.9-2.05 m/sec
Barbell shift away from athlete: 2/3/4 cm
Barbell height at end of fourth phase: 97.5/110.5/123.5 cm

Fifth Phase: Unsupported Squat Under: Pull on the bar slightly as it is rising to help pull towards the athlete, while squatting down as quickly as possible. In theory, the athlete is trying to exert some sort of force on the bar at all times, and maintain control. The first portion of this is where the feet remain on the platform while the knees and hips begin to bend. As the bar passes the head, the elbows move down under the bar and the wrists turn over.

Fifth Phase:
Feet remain on floor during squat under: 0.1 – 0.15 seconds
Elapsed time during non-support phase: 0.15 – 0.33 seconds
Elapsed total time of fifth phase: 0.25 - 0.48 seconds
Barbell height at end of phase: 110.25/124.95/139.65 cm

Sixth Phase: Supported Squat Under: The feet are then thrust from the platform. During this phase, it is possible to raise the bar another 2.5 cm through the use of the arms while pulling under the bar. As in the clean, the heels are under the hip joints and the toes are turned to the side. The lower back is arched and the torso is tilted forward, more than in the clean. The shoulder blades are flat and the arms are straight, while the head is tilted forward. During this portion of the lift, the bar will move backward, then down. Typically 5 – 9% of an athlete’s height. An experienced lifter can achieve a deeper squat position, thereby reducing the minimum height required to pull the bar.

Sixth Phase:
Elapsed time of sixth phase: 0.3 – 0.6 seconds
Barbell height at end of phase: 99/112.2/125.4 cm

When receiving the snatch, the bar is in line with the hips at the bottom. This means that it will be behind the head, which takes some time to adjust to. To minimize stress on both the shoulders and the elbows, the elbows should be rotated forward/outward as much as possible. The arms must be absolutely rigid. When rising from the bottom of a snatch, first the hips will travel back while the shoulders move forward, although only slightly. To maintain tension in not only the arms while rising, but the upper back as well, concentrate on trying to pull the bar apart with the hands. Some coaches advocate driving up out of the bottom as quickly as possible after stopping the bar’s downward progress – even before the lifter is completely balanced. This may allow the lifter to be able to save a lift from a partially recovered position that would not be possible from a deep squat position. Also, the application of force to the bar applies a certain amount of control that may save a lift that would otherwise travel outside the lifter’s base of support.

The ascent: After control is achieved, the legs begin to straighten secondary to the contraction of the glutes and hamstrings. The bar must remain in line over the hips to avoid tilting forward and losing the lift. At the top of the lift, the feet should be brought somewhat closer together.

Correcting simple mistakes in the snatch.

The most common problem in the snatch is receiving, or catching the bar. If the athlete finds that the bar is drifting forward, lower the hips, raise the head, and immediately drive up from the squat. Lowering the hips brings them, as well as the lifters COG with respect to the bar, forward, positioning the athlete under the bar. When the bar has been over pulled and is drifting backward, the athlete should lower the head and torso, and raise the hips backwards. This shifts the lifters COG to the rear, once again in line with the bar.

Bending the elbows on the pull. This is an exceptional way to tear a bicep. To avoid this, flex the triceps during the first phase, and keep them flexed until the shrug during the fourth phase. There is a reason that the old adage “where the arm bends, the power ends” is still around. That reason is the simple fact that it is true.

Functional mechanics of the snatch:

Maximum velocity of the barbell is a critical factor when determining training load. The product of maximum velocity (Vmax) and weight(m*g) presents the external (measured on the barbell) physical power component for the vertical barbell lift. This parameter is called speed-strength power (Ps-s):

m x g x Vmax = Ps-s
(Kg x m/(s)2 x m/s = W Note: (s)2 = speed squared

The total power contains a component for barbell acceleration as well. The value of this component is relatively low compared to the lift component. Because power is the work (energy) performed in a given time period, the relationship between the work required to accelerate and to lift the barbell express the relationship between the power components:
Kinetic Energy:
m/2 x (Vmax)2
Potential Energy:
m x g x h

Where m = barbell mass; Vmax = maximum barbell velocity; g = 9.81 m/(s)2; h = path of vertical barbell lift.

The lift component of the work is roughly six times greater than the acceleration component. The relationship between the power components are comparable to the work relationship.

The goal of training should be to create higher power values. This can be done through the use of high pulls, wherein the lack of the need to receive the bar can allow for not only a greater training load, but more focus on increasing velocity. Once the maximum velocity of the barbell is achieved and there is no further accelerating force, the remaining path of the weight, which is the distance s, will be determined by the following equation:
s = (v)2max/2g

It is worth noting that receiving the bar is not simply a matter of catching it, as the barbell can descend by a velocity of about 2.5 m/s when simply falling .32m. The goal should be to turn over as quickly as possible, and thus reduce the velocity of the descending barbell.

Force generation by various joints:

In the snatch, the greatest power requirements fall upon the hip extensors, which play a vital role in the entire kinetic chain. A weakness in the hips will overload the knee joint, causing either a starting movement which is too fast as well as a decrease in velocity between the 1st and 2nd pulls. A smooth transition is necessary to prevent overloading of single muscles, tendons, and joint structures. Hip power reaches its maximum value at the end of the transition phase. In descending order, the greatest power demands after the hips are met by the shoulder, knee, and ankle joints.

Bar path:

While the bar will never be pulled in a truly straight line, the closer the athlete comes to achieve this, the higher the power generated. As a general rule, athletes with higher peak vertical power and peak vertical force tend to pull in a straighter line. Also, as the weight lifted relative to body mass increases, the power output will also increase. It is worth noting that the heavier the weight lifted relative to body mass the less horizontal displacement of the bar.

Alterations of bar path to effect a superior lift:

A general backward displacement of the bar is related to successfully catching the bar. This assumes that the feet are displaced as well. By moving the bar backward and altering the CCOG by shifting the position of the lifter, the athlete is able to continue to direct the force on the bar up and rearward for as long as possible. This is achieved by shifting the weight towards the heels at the initiation of the pull and finishing the 2nd pull with the hips over or behind the ankles. As the body leans back while the knee and hips fully extend, the shoulders shrug and calves flex to complete the pull. Moving the trunk upward during final hip extension enhances the ability to use body mass to project the bar upward.

Problems in bar trajectory and how to correct them:

If the weight shifts forward over the toes at the start of the lift, the bar will be moving away from the base of support. The lifter must bring the bar toward the shin during the first pull and move the body backward, shifting the weight toward the heels.

If the bar drifts forward during the 1st pull, the athlete must avoid rising up on the balls of the feet too early, which will cause premature extension of the hips, and excessive swing of the bar away from the athlete during the fourth phase. If this occurs, the lifter must slide significantly forward during the unsupported squat under, or the bar will be dropped in front of the lifter when receiving.

Assistance work for the snatch

Power Snatch
This is quite simply a snatch executed without squatting under to receive it. When catching the bar, the lifter descends into no more than a quarter-squat. This will develop pulling power for the snatch as well as allowing the lifter to practice receiving the bar. There is less stress on the hips during this exercise compared to the classic snatch, but there can be more stress on the knees, if the weights are great. In some cases, the power generated during this lift can be greater than in the snatch.

Hang Snatch
This is a snatch performed with the bar starting at a higher level that the platform. Such levels commonly include below the knee, above the knee, and from a dead hang. This lift can be performed in a manner similar to either the snatch or the power snatch, for extra emphasis on pulling power.

Overhead Squats
After power snatching the bar into place, the lifter will descend into a full squat position. Care must be taken to maintain stability of the bar, both while descending as well as while ascending. This lift is used to improve the athletes stability in the bottom of the snatch as well as teach control during the ascent. One aspect often overlooked when performing this exercise is that at the bottom, the neck is not arched. Often, to allow the shoulders to retract, the lifter will actually be looking somewhat down. Another manner of setting up for this lift is setting up in a squat rack with the bar on the shoulders and the hands in the appropriate position. The athlete will then push-press the bar into place. This is useful for lifters whose power snatch is particularly weak. If this is necessary, pulling power needs to be improved. Due to the intense neuromuscular demands of this exercise, the athlete’s CNS will fatigue long before the muscles will. Therefore, it is best to keep the reps low, rarely more than two.

Drop Snatch/Snatch Balance
This technique is designed exclusively to improve the athlete’s ability to receive, and ascend with, the barbell. The lifter will back out of a squat rack with the bar on the shoulders, with the hands set in the appropriate position for executing a snatch lift. The lifter will then drop from under the bar, catching it overhead in the bottom position of the snatch. Beginning athletes may knee a slight knee kick to initiate movement of the bar, and advanced athletes may used this technique to move more weight than is possible in the classic snatch. Due to the inherent difficulties with balance and the associated CNS demands, the reps should be kept low, preferably 1-2.

Snatch Pulls:
This is quite simply the 1st – 4th phase of the pull. The purpose is to not only increase training load, but to improve the power of the pull, which has already been shown to be a necessity. The pull may be executed from the pins or from a hang at various positions, as well as pulled to a set height.

Snatch grip deadlifts:
Generally used only if the pull off of the deck is weak. This technique allows for a great deal of weight to be used, although the decrease in power output is significant. This technique can be used to overload the muscles of the erectors, hamstrings, and trapezius if extra work is needed in those areas.

Shrugs:
If used for the snatch, a similar grip should be employed. There are two basic types of shrugs, the first style has the athlete simply gripping a bar and shrugging upward with the trapezius. The other, more specific style, is the power shrug, where the bar is pulled from pins set at a height that allow a certain, limited amount of leg drive. This allows so much weight to be used that it will generally be beyond the athlete’s ability to maintain a grip on the bar, and straps may need to be employed.

Snatch grip press behind the neck:
While many individuals, due to a rotator cuff imbalance, or just general inflexibility, will have trouble pressing behind the neck, the snatch grip version may offer a solution. Not only does it require less flexibility than the regular press behind the neck, there is significantly less opening of the acromial process, which makes this exercise far easier on the shoulder joint. This exercise will serve to strengthen the shoulders, as well as build specific ability to stabilize the snatch overhead.

Non-specific assistance work

Squats:
If you need someone to tell you why these are beneficial, stop reading now.

Front squats:
Not very applicable to the snatch. Quad strength is rarely the limiting factor. So rare, in fact, that this author has never heard of it being a problem.

Split squats:
Useful if the lifter has a strength imbalance. Will also supply a greater training volume to the hips. Even though the split style snatch was not discussed, if the athlete uses this style, this assistance exercise becomes paramount.

Overhead split squats:
Useful again if the athlete employs a split style. The bar is held overhead with a snatch grip, and a split squat is then executed.

Good Mornings:
Essential for developing power in the erectors and hamstrings. A variety of good morning exercises can be employed, but the arched back good morning is by far the most specific.

Reverse Hyperextensions:
Not only good for developing power in the hamstrings and erectors, but essential for unloading the lumbar spine, which is subject to quite a bit of force. The pull-through at the bottom of this exercise will open the spinal column, mediating the flow of interstitial fluid within the discs.

Pull Throughs:
Yet another exercise for strengthening the all-important hamstrings, as well as the erectors.

Ham Glute Raise:
Very good exercise for strengthening the hamstrings. Has the benefit of strengthening the biceps femoris, which is far more involved in knee flexion. This muscle is not targeted as directly by the previous three exercises.

Abdominal Training:

A must for every athlete. This topic is so extensive it is a discussion in and of itself.


Utilizing the snatch in training.

As the snatch works so many different muscle groups, it can be difficult for the athlete who is not an OL’er to comfortably place it in the training program. For the bodybuilder, there is little reason to execute the classic snatch. The power snatch, or varieties of, such as the power snatch from the dead hang, can be utilized on any day where the shoulders and traps are worked. For the powerlifter, it will vary based upon the type of training involved.

In a standard periodized program, the power snatch is probably best utilized on the day deadlifts are performed, perhaps as an alternate lift when the athlete is fatigued from numerous weeks of heavy deadlifting. Snatch pulls can be used as a deadlift assistance movement, both to strengthen the traps as well as to teach the athlete to accelerate the bar. If the athlete utilizes the conjugate training program, the snatch, preferably the power version, executed from the hang, can be used on both the maximal effort as well as the maximal acceleration bench days. It would be used in place of standard shoulder and rotator cuff work, as the power snatch is an exceptional exercise for strengthening the external rotators, which tend to receive far less work on a standard program than the internal rotators.

Also, specific variations of the snatch can be used in a variety of programs. For anyone wishing additional development of the traps and posterior deltoids, either the snatch or any variation of the power snatch is exceptional. Throwers utilize this exercise heavily, as well as a variety of pulls, as the strength of the upper back is critical to any strength athlete. Overhead squats with a sumo stance can be performed to a box to teach a lifter to execute sumo style lifts with a completely erect torso. This will necessitate the use of very little weight, generally just the bar at first, until the athlete learns to adapt to this complex exercise.

References and Bibliography

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Garhammer, J. Biomechanical comparison of the U.S. team with divisional winners at the 1978 World Weightlifting Championships. Report to the U.S. National Weightlifting Committee, August 1979.

Garhammer, J., and Gregor, R. Force plate evaluations of weightlifting and vertical jumping.

Garhammer, J. Evaluation of human power capacity through Olympic weightlifting analyses. Doctoral dissertation, University of California at Los Angeles. 1980.

Garhammer, J. Power production by Olympic weightlifters. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 12:54-60. 1980.

Garhammer, J. and McLaughlin, T., Power output as a function of load variation in Olympic and powerlifting. J. Biomechanics 3:198. 1980.

Garhammer, J. Biomechanical characteristics of the 1978 world weightlifting champion. In: Biomechanics VII-B, A. Morecki, K. Fidelus, K. Kedzior, and A. Wit, eds. Baltimore: University Park Press. 1981. pp. 300-304.

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Garhammer, J. Biomechanical profiles of Olympic weightlifters. Int. J. Sport Biomechanics 1:122-130. 1985.

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thanks madcow
i'll add that into my notes when i plan my next cycle after finishing up the 5x5
and i am planing on posting "before the 5x5" and "after the 5x5" pics to help show the changes the program can make
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

d3track said:
thanks madcow
i'll add that into my notes when i plan my next cycle after finishing up the 5x5
and i am planing on posting "before the 5x5" and "after the 5x5" pics to help show the changes the program can make

No prob. BTW - were your bench and overhead increasing or did you not make much progress there? I'm curious as to whether you didn't gain as much size, strength, or both in the region as expected. Also, if you have a weakness in your bench someplace (i.e. sticking point) you should note it as something to look at and work on.
 
right now i'm at my previous single-set max, will go far past that in the next week and in the 3x3 weeks
i guess it seems as though my chest delts are staying pretty even, but my quads and back look thicker already, and to be honest, those were weak spots for me, which made the program so attractive for me
 
okay - so that puts you still in the loading phase if I'm getting that correctly. You might also find that your bench gets driven up from your posterior chain/back/lat development. Just hold tight and see what happens before you draw conclusions about requiring more work. Like I said before, the relationship between muscle and strength in the 5x5 range is consistent over longer time periods but week-to-week and month-to-month you are lucky if you find much linearity especially as you become more advanced.

And another rant on diet - not directly at you:
If muscle is your focus, just be sure you are eating enough, way too many people on this board at 7% bodyfat micromanaging their diet and wondering why they aren't gaining weight. If caloric excess is present, they will gain muscle and some combination of fat (hell, all fat if you don't train at all) but they will not remain at status quo which seems to be the trend in people having issues. Also, I don't think people take into account that as they gain a bit of muscle their base requirements go up so when they micromanage they are forgetting to adjust their new requirement mid-training cycle.
 
lol
undereating is deffinatly not a problem for this fat-ass!
eventually i'll get to 240!

i will deffinatly post up as i progress through the program, and post pics (i know people keep asking for pics, so hopefully someone finds it usefull)
i just wanted to post up my thoughts on this program as i go through it
 
Keep em coming. It's good stuff. I had thought you were further along - done or almost done.

Since you are interested in doing it, and I know a lot of people could benefit (I'll link it in the TOC also because I don't have many really comprehensive progress posts) you might consider posting comprehensive updates at the end of each period (i.e. post-volume and post-intensity/deload). Pictures, starting lifts, current records, weight, whatever you might want to include. Granted you can post anything you want but if I had a wish list it would be something on that level after week 4 and again after week 9 or at some reasonably logical interval. Just be sure to make gains (it doesn't do me any good it you aren't happy and link some picture of the middle finger in your update :)).

Also - good shoulder development in your avatar. Thinking back I recall you were a thrower? Do you have much experience with training the snatch and/or OL variants? You might find the snatch read up above worthwhile if you wanted to incorporate some of those into your training later on.
 
i did some snach and power clean work in school
but i think my form sucked, there were not any good lifting coaches on campus once the chiefs left training camp :)
i need to find someone around here who can help me out if i want to get into those lifts more
 
www.usaweightlifting.org/

Check and see if there is a coach in your area. My friend took this advice and trains for free on top equipment with full coaching every Saturday. Even a few sessions a long time apart can be hugely beneficial especially if you are looking to simply obtain functional technique rather than compete in the lifts.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

During volume phase, do I increase the weight each week?

For example...on monday week one, my max set of the 1x5 is 200lbs


When am I supposed to increase the weight? On friday during the 5x5? or the next monday during the 1x5? or do I leave the weight the same during volume phase and only increase it during intensity phase?

Thanks
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Santa_Claus said:
During volume phase, do I increase the weight each week?

For example...on monday week one, my max set of the 1x5 is 200lbs


When am I supposed to increase the weight? On friday during the 5x5? or the next monday during the 1x5? or do I leave the weight the same during volume phase and only increase it during intensity phase?

Thanks

Very first post has a table of contents - this is the sample weight selection. Your 1x5 and 5x5 workouts are independent of each other as each has a separate record. You start your weights conservatively and scale upward to where you are hitting your current record in week 3 and exceeding in week 4 (or whereever the final 2 weeks of the volume phase end up for you).

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4652618&postcount=211
 
d3track said:
i did some snach and power clean work in school
but i think my form sucked, there were not any good lifting coaches on campus once the chiefs left training camp :)
i need to find someone around here who can help me out if i want to get into those lifts more

hey bro if you are working on form.. check these clips out..
one is really short but the other is longer there is audio to he explains it pretty good.. good form and bad.. stole these from the vertical jump post.

Part1 - 2megs
http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/nl/chad01.asf

Part2- 32megs
http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/nl/chado2.asf

they should work i watched them yesterday.. need windows media player i think.. i all...
 
OK madcow.. what about soreness do you just ignore this if you are really sore from say squats. and can barly walk. do you just go ahead with your work out?? what is the limit.. surly it afects you at some point??
 
In general, unless you have just changed your training significantly or train with low frequency, high volume, to failure (not recomended as that means you are not properly conditioned) you don't generally get sore. At least not to any major degree. Once well conditioned and training with acceptable frequency, most people are hardly ever sore. More than a few have gone through the 5x5 program only sore a bit in the first week.

So anyway, you should train through it unless you are so sore that there is a chance of injury or you are just unable to perform. In the case of being unable to train, do something for recovery and get some blood in those muscles to flush them out. If you skip a workout you are messing with the loading protocol which is the stimulus. When you don't apply as much load as planned you create a dip or wind up offsetting your entire program.

If you care to read here are some opinions etc..., to my knowledge no one has specifically nailed down DOMS, but regardless it's widely accepted that there is no correlation to progression of either growth or strength and that proper conditioning makes minimizes it to a very large extent.
http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=23534
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=8507
 
Those links are more about what might be causeing DOMS. Generally those that know enough to venture opinions on it are going to assume it's a known that there is no real significance. I'd only maybe read the FI one as I don't even think I made it all the way through the one at meso before I got bored. They're more intellecual curriosity than anything else so don't feel compelled to waste your time - I know I didn't.
 
Thinking about this for an overall training cycle:

Load: 4 weeks
Deload: 1 week
Intensity: 4 weeks
Deload: 1 week
Week point training: 1 week

Possible week off then: (may not take a week off depending on feel)

Load: 2 weeks
Deload: 1 week
Intensity: 2 weeks
Deload: 1 week
Week point training: 1 week

Say for the week point training since i do enjoy the pump you get in your arms from direct arm work, throw some of that in week point training, or for that one week just train arms for kicks. How many days a week to train and what type of volume. I understand that week point training is say if ur tris are ur week point for bench to train them, but if i just wanted to hit my arms that week for fun what are your suggestions for that. That schedule above is pretty much how i interpreted the beyond 5x5 link. Thanx.
 
That link is just an example. It really depends on what you are trying to do and accomplish. Don't use that week scheme just out of default as it has to match what it is you will be doing. I believe it might have been DFHT or some such when I wrote it, wasn't really paying attention just illustrating organization.

You can work on your weak points any time and work them into the loading/deloading protocol - you just have to setup a relevant program. This could be 3 weeks of loading 1 deload or whatever. 1 week of light training can work but to be honest 1 week doesn't really get you that much if you neglected something before and go back to neglecting it again.

Just some thoughts.
 
just got my book in THE STRONGES SHALL SURVIVE by BILL STARR
Happy me.. seems to be just what i wanted.. so see you guys till i am finished reading..... ;)
 
I really didn't mean like train a weak point but rather just a week of training basically whatever you want, and since there is no real direct arm work to hit arms or some direct trap work or whatever it is say you feel like doing for that week, then depending on feel take a week off or not and then get back into the loading.

Im about to start week 6, the first week of the intensity phase and i like to have a game plan for when that last week fo the intensity phase is over. I'll probably do another deload after depending on how i feel because i read that it's possible to be "loaded" again by the end of 3x3. After that i dont know whether just to start up the program again or play with the cycling a little, like do a 3 week load and 1 week deload or 2 to 1 or whatever. My goal is to put on size more than strength. I really have to get my diet in check to optimize that. Real life situations makes it hard to do that sometimes especially with work and school. Even with my diet not being so great i've put on 7 lbs in 5 weeks. Actually lean lbs too my bf is exactly the same as when i started the program.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Topside said:
I really didn't mean like train a weak point but rather just a week of training basically whatever you want, and since there is no real direct arm work to hit arms or some direct trap work or whatever it is say you feel like doing for that week, then depending on feel take a week off or not and then get back into the loading.

Im about to start week 6, the first week of the intensity phase and i like to have a game plan for when that last week fo the intensity phase is over. I'll probably do another deload after depending on how i feel because i read that it's possible to be "loaded" again by the end of 3x3. After that i dont know whether just to start up the program again or play with the cycling a little, like do a 3 week load and 1 week deload or 2 to 1 or whatever. My goal is to put on size more than strength. I really have to get my diet in check to optimize that. Real life situations makes it hard to do that sometimes especially with work and school. Even with my diet not being so great i've put on 7 lbs in 5 weeks. Actually lean lbs too my bf is exactly the same as when i started the program.

I understand now. Good progress too BTW - I'd appreciate it if you'd make a comprehensive post at the end just providing starting/ending weight, strength base and increase, thoughts etc... whatever you want but you are one of the few monitoring BF levels so that's something unique and helpful. I fully understand the real life thing encroaching on training, I have more commitments than I can shake a stick at.

I think it's probably valuable for most people to lay out 4-6 months worth of hypothetical training (if you compete, you determine your schedule based on the event or season calendar and usually it's in blocks of around a year). Even if you change it significantly, it lays a framework for you. As far as "canned" programs, you have the Starr 5x5, Dual Factor Hypertrophy in the last page or two, HST is on option too, Dual Factor Strength can be found on meso, something Westside can be worked in, and you can also design something of your own. If you have liked the results and want to run another 5x5 cycle back to back you will certainly have very accurate records and a clear understanding of how you tolerated the previous loading scheme - maybe you want to start your ramps higher or lower - maybe ramp longer, whatever.

As far as the 3x3 phase reloading, it's mainly a concern if you use the 3x per week protocol. If doing the 3x per week intensity/deload, plan to take a week (train light no more than 2x) and then just see how you feel. As far as working sets the volume is not much higher than the 2x per week (you aren't counting anything but the top set of the 1x3 pyramids) but it can push some people a bit too much, just see how it goes.
 
I'll absolutely throw in a conclusion post once i finish the program. If i put on another 7lbs of lbm i'd be extremely happy. I started at 142 now im at 149, i got really sick for quite a few months. I was at 168 and my bf actually has not changed i've been 10% since i was 168 about 8 months ago. School just ended so i'll have more time to concentrate on my diet, trying to get it all back and then some. Really enjoying the program though thus far very simple and its very easy to monitor progress bc there are not a lot of variables to focus on. I'll probably just run this program again due to the fact that this is my first time training this way and as much progress as i am making its still a learning experience kinda feeling things out so the second time around i can make as close to perfect as possible.
 
Okay Madcow, I just finished up week 6 of the 5x5 volume phase ( first time around so i started light and worked may way up to get a feel for things and see where I was at). Now next week in the deloading phase i keep all my weights the same for the 1x3 lifts and the 3x3 kifts correct? I use the same weights I eneded with on the 1x5 and 5x5 lifts?

By the way, the program is working great where strength is concerned. I haven't been this excited about working out in a REAL LONG time. Been hittin it all natural too. I'll see how it goes during the next 5 weeks. I'm sure strength will continue to go up, just gotta see if the weight comes on. I keep it on the lean side, so if the weight doen't come on, I'll check my diet and take it from there.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

You are right with regards to the weight. 1x5 = 1x3 and 5x5 = 3x3 for the deload week.

In reference to diet (not to just you - this is a major trend), if you want to get bigger you have to consume a caloric excess. If an excess is present and you don't gain any muscle, you will get fatter - such is the nature of caloric excess. If you aren't getting fatter or adding muscle, you aren't eating enough because there is no excess present. Also, if you start out with a small margin of excess and gain a few pounds, it might take up your entire excess budget - thus, your excess must be constantly increased along with your progress to keep a consistent excess.

The diet stuff is so critical and I really think a lot of people are blowing it here. It doesn't need to be ultra clean food and supplements to get big and strong. A double whopper a day split into 2 meals will do it. It doesn't matter. If your goal is to get big you absolutely must consume an excess of calories - if you want to eat ultra clean so be it, high quality is not required (within reason) but excess calories are. A lot of people (and it's always the already lean ones so no excess is present in their base diet) also seem to be eating at the margin with what they think is an excess - well they are getting stronger but not bigger or fatter in any way. What does that tell me, they aren't eating enough and their estimate of base caloric requirements is off and therefore their excess is off. Very simple stuff, Excess = weight gain (fat or muscle but should be mostly muscle). If there is no weight gain than no excess is present. Just deductive logic.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:

I need to spread some karma around. I know you're too modest to think as much, but MC, you're a resource, man--no reason to even try and argue about it! :)
 
This doesn't relate to the 5x5 but i'd like madcow's opinion or thoughts so i figured i'd post it here. I have a little set up in my basement (squat rack, adjustable bench, 300lbs weight set, some dbs etc.) Basically the weights in my basement feel heavier than the weights in the gym. I can max out at 225 at the gym but in my basement i can only hit 185. Weight is weight same plates and everything. Do you think the atmosphere and say change of scenary have anything to do with that loss of strength. Last time i was at the gym before i started the 5x5 i did 190 for 5 and it was pretty tough, at the 3x3 im at 155 (basement) and its not tough but next week at 165 for 3 will start to get tough. It's kinda weird and im used to my basement now so i dunno...just wondering.
 
How would you recomend the warm-up pattern go for the 1x3 sets? For the 1x5 sets, I started 100lbs under my final set weight and increased 25lbs on each set (and the were a few warm up set done even prior to the first ramping warm-up set). Obviously I will need more tyhan 2 ramping wamr ups for the heavy final sets for 1x3, but I'm not sure how the two ramping warm ups that are called for should be set up. Thanks.
 
Topside said:
This doesn't relate to the 5x5 but i'd like madcow's opinion or thoughts so i figured i'd post it here. I have a little set up in my basement (squat rack, adjustable bench, 300lbs weight set, some dbs etc.) Basically the weights in my basement feel heavier than the weights in the gym. I can max out at 225 at the gym but in my basement i can only hit 185. Weight is weight same plates and everything. Do you think the atmosphere and say change of scenary have anything to do with that loss of strength. Last time i was at the gym before i started the 5x5 i did 190 for 5 and it was pretty tough, at the 3x3 im at 155 (basement) and its not tough but next week at 165 for 3 will start to get tough. It's kinda weird and im used to my basement now so i dunno...just wondering.
Maybe different bench or something affecting your leverages and positioning. Not really sure. Maybe you lost some strength somewhere. Setting can play a role but that's pretty large.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

slyder190 said:
How would you recomend the warm-up pattern go for the 1x3 sets? For the 1x5 sets, I started 100lbs under my final set weight and increased 25lbs on each set (and the were a few warm up set done even prior to the first ramping warm-up set). Obviously I will need more tyhan 2 ramping wamr ups for the heavy final sets for 1x3, but I'm not sure how the two ramping warm ups that are called for should be set up. Thanks.

So one of the reasons the pyramid is here is that it provides you some discretion in how you get your volume. Sort of a knob you can turn depending on how well you are tolerating the program. Absolute pounds are hard to figure, 100lbs and increments of 25lbs may sound great but if your target weight is 135lbs, some of that is largely worthless so percentages are a better way to figure them.

For the 1x3 the volume isn't as critical, if you get 3 solid sets pyramided then great, if you are really taxed just get up to target warming up and using singles and doubles as needed. The volume is more key in the 1x5 but for 1x3 you just keep pushing the target up and don't worry about the volume so much.
 
I did lose strenght from losing weight, but when i hit 190 for 5 i had already lost the weight. Never thought about the actual bench. I guess it's just a combination of everything. I really dont mind it's all relative anyway, wherever you start you start and the weights are moving up so its all good.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey - Just wanted to stop in and say I'm giving this program a test run. I'm just starting the deloading week today after a pretty tough volume phase. I've made some pretty good strength gains already and bodyweight is about the same. I expect I'll be adding some noticeable mass coming in the next few weeks coming out of the volume phase.

Squatted 275 atf for 5 last friday, which is a pretty large pr. I'm a little run down from all the volume but I feel like I have a lot of new strength left in the tank for the intensity phase. I wouldn't be suprised if I can squat 315 for 3 by the end of the cycle, and this is from someone who hasn't really ever taken squatting seriously. I'm really liking the program, Wednesday workouts are tough, but all my lifts seem to be improving.

In summary: Starting the deloading phase, already have a bunch of PRs under my belt.

6', 190 lbs.
Bench: 225x5*
Squat: 275x5*
Dead: 335x5*
Row: 185x5*
Pullups: +45x5*

*PR
 
Looks like good progress in the lifts. Your strength should really shoot up in the next phase, especially with a hard loading period. After the next 2 weeks you'll be amazed how much stronger you are.

Since you haven't gained weight (not that there is anything too wrong but I want to catch it now if this applies):
Without a solid margin of caloric excess in your diet, there is no way to gain much weight especially if you are already fairly lean. I don't know if this is or is not the case but it's a big enough trend that I'll probably write something on it for the table of contents and it has long been my policy to avoid diet related stuff because I consider it fairly easy and basic but it really seems to be causing people some stumbling blocks. Their lifts shoot up accross the board but by the time they figure this out it's too late to do anything about it.

This is basically my thoughts: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4856947&postcount=451
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

To be honest, I'm not really trying to get that much bigger. I'm pretty lean at the moment, eating right around maintenance as a conscious decision. At my current height and weight, standard clothes still fit me well and I'm not really looking to change that. I much prefer the fitness model look over the bodybuilder look (no offense to you beasts out there).

I appreciate the heads up, and may think about upping the calories over the remainder of my cycle. I wouldn't mind getting up to around 195 and then doing a brief cutting phase to get really lean at 190.
 
That's perfect then. Keep me updated on how your lifts go further on in the deload/intensity A lot of people here are really concerned with gaining weight and size so I'm making a conscious effort to try to accomodate because I consistently find people that are fairly lean, managing their calories with a thin margin, and not realizing that there may not be caloric excess. The end result is they get a lot stronger but little muscle or even fat gain...hence no excess existed.

Definitely keep us updated on how your lifts go as you get a couple more weeks out. If you loaded as heavy as it sounds you will likely get a really good performance boost further out.
 
holy shit just weighed myself 2 days ago i was 149 and today im 154.6, is that possible lol, on top of lifting today i ran a mile and a half and played basketball for 2 hours. Craziness!
 
Your body weight will fluctuate a lot over the course of even a single day, depending on water retention, hydration, and the general time of day you weigh yourself.
 
yea, usually its one or two lbs. over or under from the day before. When i weigh myself on monday i always weigh myself right before bed and thats what i usually go by. Last monday i was at 147. Just really surprised me to see that. My weight gain the past few weeks has been about a lb. to 2 lbs. a week.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

DIET AND TRAINING

Okay, I don't really care to delve deeply into diet issues generally. I find it pretty basic and uninteresting, plus - there's enough books and forums out there that you can easily get up to speed on the micro crap. I'm going to deal with one topic - caloric excess (the most important non-training topic for those looking to add muscle) and then provide a few quotes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, a lot of BBers claim that diet is 95% of everything - that's some nice bullshit to spew when a guy is running the test levels of 20 men, has no performance criteria whatsoever to be judged by, and even a horrible training stimulus will still get him results. The bottom line is that for an experienced natural or someone who isn't living on large dosages of drugs, as long as your diet is "reasonable" you will get bigger and stronger only if the training is in line.

This is common sense blocking and tacking stuff. Eat a good balanced diet, get enough protein, vitamins, whatever, drink lots of water, and make sure you supply yourself with enough calories to grow. Combine that with a good training program and voila - you will get bigger and stronger.

I tell you that the main issue for most non-novice lifters is the training program. They don't know how to get stronger and increase their capacities in the core lifts after they crest the novice stage where they can't just go in and add weight each week. Stuff like the 3 day split, training bodyparts 1x per week, thinking that a routine is a list of exercises you will do and that it is enough to go in the gym and work hard - all this screws people. Shattering these bullshit BBing myths and near total reliance on anabolics and illustrating proper periodization and dual factor style programs was the reason I put the Bill Starr 5x5 program on this site.

Of course there is one problem. The assumption of a "reasonable" diet and the key factor here is caloric excess. The key factor is not 6 meals a day, nor is it X grams of protein, nor is it weighing one's food and counting every last scrap of it while extracting yolks from egg whites like a baby salamander. It is caloric excess. If you don't have it, you can't grow. Contrary to popular BBing mythos, it need not even be a clean diet. You can eat quite a bit of garbage and get big and strong (even staying reasonably lean for a lot of people) as long as there is caloric excess. If you choose to eat clean, more power to you but make sure in your extra effort that you get caloric excess or you won't be adding muscle.

Now some people start with a pretty big margin of bodyfat (approaching 20% or more), these people already have significant caloric excess built into their base diet. Most of them find that they can hold their calories constant and for a while they will add muscle and the maintenance of that muscle will use up the excess calories that are currently going toward maintaining their excess fat. This won't last forever but it will likely get them down to the mid to low teens without any issues. Everybody with lower bodyfat needs to add excess to their base diet.

Now this sounds like common sense but here is the kicker. There are a lot of people who really put a lot of effort into their diet and maintain fairly lean physiques. They carefully calculate and maintain a constant diet and precise level of caloric excess - nothing wrong with that. The only problem is that their calculations might not fully reflect their activity level or the requirements of their own individual body.

Keep in mind that they are already fairly lean so there is obviously little to no caloric excess in their base diets. Also understand that the lower your BF is, the less willing your body is to add muscle - very logically, muscle is calorically expensive and increases risk of death from famine, if fat stores are already low, it is very hard to convince the body to add muscle (the people with this genetic makeup died millions of years ago). This is also why people loose muscle when cutting (this is all based on natural lifters, steroids enhance certain abilities but don't erase restrictions completely).

So given that some of these people are already lean (no caloric excess) and run their diets based at the margin of a calculation, these people can go through a good training program, get strong as hell raising their capacities in all the lifts and not gain any weight. How is this possible? Very simple, no caloric excess. If you eat more than you need you will gain weight. If you are a couch potato, that weight might be all fat. A good training program will ensure that a large portion is muscle. Either way, if caloric excess is present - one will not be the same weight and body composition by the very definition of caloric excess.

This may sound like common sense but it snafu's tons of people, particularly BBers because many of them like to maintain lower levels of BF and spend a lot of time on their diet and eat right at the margin of a somewhat arbitrary calculation that works on the average but in reality needs to be tailored to their own requirements. In addition, many will make their diet squeaky clean and not realize that their volume of consumption has to increase drastically to get the same number of total calories - so they wind up putting themselves in caloric maintenance or worse, deficit.

In addition, as people gain muscle their base requirement increases and thus their diet must be adjusted to maintain the same caloric excess margin. I know it sounds easy but a lot of people eat the same diet at 195 as they did when they were working their way up from 180. They sit their with this nice lean body and wonder why they can't ever seem to break the 200 barrier because their training is good and they eat the same good healthy diet that got them all the way to 195.

Another good thing to remember is that you don't eat too much one day and wake up to find that you went from 8% to 20% BF overnight. A lot of people have a good feel for their base diet and just consume more when they want to gain. If they start getting too fat too quickly, they cut back appropriately. For the vast majority of people, they can likely monitor this without every doing heavy micromanagement while gaining muscle. If your goal is hardcore cutting and getting down much below 10%, well that takes work but adding muscle is pretty easy without micromanagement. But, if one wishes to quantify their diets and spend time on this then go right ahead, I just don't like to see people with pretty mundane and attainable goals think that this it's absolutely necessary if they want to add even an ounce of muscle.

I'm not crapping on the desire to eat clean wholesome foods but it is not necessary for the purpose of adding muscle whereas caloric excess is. Eating clean is a separate goal from adding muscle, it's a lifestyle goal and takes work - kudos to those that do it because it makes the whole thing a bit harder and requires more planning. I'm not saying to eat total garbage but a reasonable diet is fine and to be honest more than a few people have found it necessary to add in more calorically dense foods (i.e. fried chicken etc...) when bulking simply because they can't consume the volume and get all the calories any other way (I'm not talking about your standard 150lbs kid here obviously).

Bottom lines:

1) Caloric excess is required
2) Your body will change if excess is present - fat/muscle/body composition
3) If over the period the body did not change - caloric excess was not present
4) If you add muscle, your base requirement will change and you will need to eat more to maintain excess


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So here's a few other posts on diet snipped from JS182 on Meso.
Source Post:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=12

TOPIC 15: Food and Training

let me just piss off a number of people right off the bat by saying that i totally disagree with anyone who says that food is as important as training in growing muscle.

ive heard a great number of people assert this, and its just crap, in my opinion. i know so damn many people that eat totally like crap, yet train hard and gain... but i dont know anyone who gains without training hard, unless they are a rank beginner, and thats a whole other story, since a beginner wint have to eat right to gain either.

now, to back this up a bit, let me say that the most elite athletes in the world have notoriously bad dietary habits. yeah, thats right. those elite weightlifters, skiiers, wrestlers, etc, eat like crap. if there is any common ground amoung all the sports that have resident athletes at the olympic training center, its the concern over getting decent food into the athletes. most of the top throwers i have known ate fast food, and not enough of it most of the time... most powerlifters eat like crap. if there is anything that elite olympic lifters ahve in common, its smoking, and worrying more about what beer they are going to drink than what they are having for dinner.

but, you might say, this may very well prove that gaining strength, skill, endurance, and even muscle mass isnt really tied to a perfect diet, as long as you get ennough calories... BUT bodybuilding is different because of the low bodyfat required while maintaining high amounts of muscle mass.

well let me ask you this. what stops more people from attaining a physique that looks like a bodybuilder, not enough muscle, or too much fat... and which is easier to remedy? the answer is obvious. going from 160lbs of lean body mass to 230lbs of lean body mass is a lot harder than going from 15% bodyfat to 7% bodyfat.

if your not ready to accept this, then answer this question. lets say that i was a magic genie, and could give you either the muscle mass and of ronnie coleman, or his bodyfat level. now, if i gave you his muscle mass, youd still be as fat as you are now, on top of all that muscle, and would have to lose the fat to look like him. if i gave you his bodyfat level, you would still have your present muscle mass and would have to gain the muscle yourself to look like him. which would you choose? if you didnt pick the muscle, your kidding yourself.

so what have i said so far... first, that getting big and strong, while undoubtedly helped along by a good diet, arent at all dependant on teh "scientific" and exacting diet plans that most people would hold up as ideal, in fact, getting big and strong seems to happen on a frequent basis to people whose only concern with food is that they get enough of it and that it tasts tood...

and second, that getting really big, and probably pretty strong as well, is the hardest part of being a bodybuilder. staying lean, or getting lean, are both not easy, but they arent the main challenge to the guy just starting out who want s to step onstage someday.

so there you have it... training, what you do and how hard you do it, is the most important thing in bodybuilding as in any sport. food, rest, other recovery techniques, self confidence boosters, EVERYTHING else, in fact, are just there to support the training. the training is the main thing.

TOPIC 11: FOOD

ive got no superior knowledge on the subject, but i noticed in the original post somewhere he said he took in 300g of protein, not many carbs, and only 10% fat. and ate 3500 or 4500 cals. not possible. 300grams of protein is 1200 calories. hes either eating way more carbs or fat than he thinks.

what i have my athletes who are in strength-power sports eat is milk, meat, some other protein sources if wanted, and lots of vegatables... some fruit but not a lot and breads/pastas kept to a bare minimum. add in more starches when you want to gain weight, cut them back when you want to lose.

a good meal is this... go to walmart and buy the big economy bag of chopped mixed vegatbles. then buy some chicken breasts and lean cuts of beef or lamb or other meats you like. cut one or two different kinds of meat into little chunks. cook in olive oil till just about done... if using chicken put it in first so its well done first and everything else is lightly cooked.steam the vegatables, use some spices, ginger actually is nice. stir it all together and cook it a bit in the olive oil (just briefly, just a bit of olive oil). now you can fix this in about 15 or so minutes. you can fix enough for 4 or 5 meals at one time if you have the right size equipmenmt in your kitchen. this is what i recomend for those wanting to gain strength without gaining a bunch of fat.

i dont like eating out of a blender. eat meat, enough for the protein you need. fill up on vegatebles. save the starches for special occasions, eat apples or something like that for snacks. eat about 4 meals a day with meat and vegatebles. eat a couple of snacks, a piece of cheese and an apple is a good snack, a glass of milk and an orange is a good snack.

by the way, my wife is a registered dietician, and also a national record holder in powerlifting, and shes a good enough discuss thrower that still at age 32 she could walk on to just about any college program in the US and get a scholarship. and she hasnt thrown seriously in years. even when not training hard, she can squat ass to ankles double bodyweight for 10 reps without a belt. so she knows about nutrition, and how it relates to athletic performance. and if you could talk to her she would also tell you that the ideal diet for most athletes is meat and vegatbles mainly, with enough starches thrown in to maintain weight or gain weight if needed.

i know that most of you eat out of a blender half the time, but damn it food is good. i look forward to eating if its good food... and i dont care how engineered anything is, its not the same as real food, yes the protein is there, the calories are there, but you dont get as complete nutrition from a can or box as you do from real food. eating good food, nutrition rich food is healthy. and healthy people do better in the weight room. and if you ever have the chance try mongolian food, do it. geez that stuff is good.
 
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I don't agree with the second post as much. Caloric excess determines fat gain, not a lot of starches. He seems a bit uninformed in that area. I'm sure he's a good guy overall, but his spelling is also atrocious. It just annoys me to read the stuff he writes sometimes.

All in all, I agree with him, though.
 
Question:

If you had the same basal metabolic rate and followed exactly the same training routine as another guy and ate 4500 calories of extremely strict, clean food but the other guy was on a diet of 4500 calories of food that wasn't as clean (i.e. some ice-cream, big macs whatever thrown in) but was still eating as much protein and carbs as you were, then you would both gain the same amount of muscle, right? But surely eating the ultra clean food would make you less likely to gain as much fat as the guy eating all the junk? Or is it irrelevant how clean your diet is when you are on a caloric excess?

Hope that makes sense.
 
Caloric excess is the thing of main importance, but once you cross that threshold of excess cals, you need to be a bit shifty. If the excess is coming through ice cream or something, you might not be as pleased as if it were from meats. That's my take, anyway. In the end, make sure you eat enough, no matter what. Unless you can easily stomach clean calories past your limit, you'll want to enjoy yourself a bit more and have some unclean foods.

Also, one person's sensitivity to carbs can factor in.
 
This is the diet minutia stuff. Think about it, let's say you got your clean calories in 3 meals a day where this guy was splitting up his big macs most advantageously to keep constant flow of flood and not provide any single large spikes of calories etc....this is why I don't even like to get into this crap because it's a never ending PITA. Suffice to say, eat a clean diet if you choose (it's better for you) and if you want to gain muscle you best be absolutely sure you have a caloric excess present or your efforts in that direction are totally shot.

Tom: I think he's assuming you are eating at your base intake and your diet consists of mostly meats etc...When you want to start gaining weight, a good way to do that is to up your carb intake (increasing total calories). I think it's more on how he believes strength athletes should eat in general rather than specific to hypertrophy. I know what you are saying though, I just figured I'd add them and make it easy.
 
In my nutrition class the first thing my prof said about gaining and losing weight is simple math. It's cals in versus cals out, if you have left over cals you'll gain weight, if you even out you'll maintain, or if you dont take in enough you'll lose weight. I think with this whole diet thing it's more of a matter of time than actually eating the foods. When there is food right in front of you of course you'll eat it, but its just a matter of getting the food in front of you. During school i had trouble getting excess cals in bw class and work and all that shit, but now that school is over and im jobless all i do is eat because there is nothing else to do. My father even owns a grocery store and it's hard sometimes for me to eat in excess. Just real life ya know.
 
You know what I always wondered? If you make strength gains without size gains, due to lack of calories, do you miss out on the hypertrophy associated with those gains? By this I mean, if you move your squat up 50 lbs., 35 lbs. on bench, 95 lbs. on the deadlift, and 30 lbs. on the row, yet you don't eat enough, you won't gain any weight, and very little, if any, size. Correct?

Now, if you do all that, then after making those jumps, you begin to eat above your maintenance level (for arguements sake, you knew EXACTLY what it was, and ate about 800 calories in excess) - what would happen? One who ate all along with those gains would have added some size from it, no doubt. So what of the guy who comes in and eats LATER? Did his body just skimp out, and will he miss out on the size gains, or will he explode in a shorter amount of time with some new mass to accompany his much added strength?

I've always wanted to ask that, and couldn't word it right. Hopefully this will get some attention soon, so I can have an answer. It's been on my mind all morning!
 
Things start to get complicated when you count in micronutrients and the thermic effect of food. Protein requires lots of energy to digest and absorb. And certain micronutrients aid in metabolism and building muscle.
 
I believe you mean macronutrients. Yes, you're right though - it gets complicated when you take it to that level. Not so much that it's incomprehensible, but it's just plain annoying to try and perfect it all.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Tom Treutlein said:
You know what I always wondered? If you make strength gains without size gains, due to lack of calories, do you miss out on the hypertrophy associated with those gains? By this I mean, if you move your squat up 50 lbs., 35 lbs. on bench, 95 lbs. on the deadlift, and 30 lbs. on the row, yet you don't eat enough, you won't gain any weight, and very little, if any, size. Correct?

Now, if you do all that, then after making those jumps, you begin to eat above your maintenance level (for arguements sake, you knew EXACTLY what it was, and ate about 800 calories in excess) - what would happen? One who ate all along with those gains would have added some size from it, no doubt. So what of the guy who comes in and eats LATER? Did his body just skimp out, and will he miss out on the size gains, or will he explode in a shorter amount of time with some new mass to accompany his much added strength?

I've always wanted to ask that, and couldn't word it right. Hopefully this will get some attention soon, so I can have an answer. It's been on my mind all morning!

It teachers your body that you don't want muscular gains and once it learns that, you end up staying at your current weight forever. :) Couldn't resist.

Actually, it's a good question. I'm not entirely sure of the exact answer or the degree of the effect. There are certainly a lot of lifters who restrict calories to keep their weight down over long periods while increasing strength only to balloon up in a big way once they relax their rigidity a bit. As to whether it would put them at the exact point that they'd be at if they had always maximized hypertrophy, I can't say. It may depend on whether we are talking a single training cycle or two, a year, or multiple years. To be honest, I've never heard much on it and one answer might be that no one really knows enough about it to have thrown out a comprehensive theory that allows for the different time periods. If you were able to get the info or even someone's opinion on it, it would certainly be helpful. Why not post in fortifiediron.com's advanced theory section or see if Glenn or Gavin has any idea at http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/ - they might at least point you in the right direction.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Starting week 4 of the program

Here is what I noticed so far...


-Im stronger
-I have way more fun doing big compound movements than doing little isolation work
-I don't weight as much (~3 lbs less)
-I've lost a noticable amount of muscle mass (especially in the chest area)
-Im not as buff as I was before.

My body may not be as asthetically pleasing as before but im stronger. I can live with that because I think doing compounds is way more motivating and fun. However, as time progress, I just hope I wont lose too much muscle mass.

*some observations*

-Dumbell presses and dips really made a big difference on my chest. They really filled up my chest when I did them. ( I tried doing 1 set of Dumbell presses to see just how much my strength had increased, before I struggled on the 65lbs dumbells and now it was really easy)

-Dropping leg presses has also made my legs smaller. (Weird, because I squat 3x a week now but perhaps the leg press hits the muscle in a different way to make it grow.)
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

In addition to this being a unique experience (other than getting stronger and fun), a few things really stick out.

1) If you are stronger (in hypertrophy capacity levels i.e. 5x5 and not 1RM) in the bench and squat now than you were before and you have shrunk - I'd be more inclined to conclude that you were very weak in these exercises relative to the others you dropped. You don't shrink from having your bench and squat numbers go up unless your starting numbers in these lifts were insufficient to maintain your previous size. I'd be very hesitant to conclude that you require more volume to not even gain but to merely maintain your current level of musculature than everyone else here so something else is likely very wrong and your experience is unique.

2) If you are losing weight - there is a problem. You should read the post just above about the nature of caloric excess. If you have extra calories, you will gain weight. It may be all fat but you will gain weight. I can't reconcile an adequate diet when you are losing weight but getting stronger in the big lifts.

3) Muscle does not just atrophy off the body in 4 weeks especially when a decent amount of activity is being applied. Even if the level of activity were not optimal or enough, your legs and chest should not be shrinking at this rate. There is something wrong.

In a nutshell - something is very off, maybe a combination of things. Did you keep a journal? Can you elaborate a bit about your stats, lifts before beginning, progression, and current lifts. Also maybe include what your old workout used to look like, sets/reps/approx weight used. On the off chance you totally botched the loading period and didn't read it right you might be overtrained but it isn't usually this severe. I really lean toward being weak in some of these lifts (i.e. squat relative to your leg press) and not getting enough total calories. I realize it's frustrating but this stuff just doesn't make any sense and I can honestly say - this can't happen without some extenuating circumstances at work (please tell me if you started this program after running an anabolic cycle).
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:
In addition to this being a unique experience (other than getting stronger and fun), a few things really stick out.

1) If you are stronger (in hypertrophy capacity levels i.e. 5x5 and not 1RM) in the bench and squat now than you were before and you have shrunk - I'd be more inclined to conclude that you were very weak in these exercises relative to the others you dropped. You don't shrink from having your bench and squat numbers go up unless your starting numbers in these lifts were insufficient to maintain your previous size. I'd be very hesitant to conclude that you require more volume to not even gain but to merely maintain your current level of musculature than everyone else here so something else is likely very wrong and your experience is unique.

2) If you are losing weight - there is a problem. You should read the post just above about the nature of caloric excess. If you have extra calories, you will gain weight. It may be all fat but you will gain weight. I can't reconcile an adequate diet when you are losing weight but getting stronger in the big lifts.

3) Muscle does not just atrophy off the body in 4 weeks especially when a decent amount of activity is being applied. Even if the level of activity were not optimal or enough, your legs and chest should not be shrinking at this rate. There is something wrong.

In a nutshell - something is very off, maybe a combination of things. Did you keep a journal? Can you elaborate a bit about your stats, lifts before beginning, progression, and current lifts. Also maybe include what your old workout used to look like, sets/reps/approx weight used. On the off chance you totally botched the loading period and didn't read it right you might be overtrained but it isn't usually this severe. I really lean toward being weak in some of these lifts (i.e. squat relative to your leg press) and not getting enough total calories. I realize it's frustrating but this stuff just doesn't make any sense and I can honestly say - this can't happen without some extenuating circumstances at work (please tell me if you started this program after running an anabolic cycle).

1)

6'3
~200lbs @ ~14 bodyfat , no steroids
Old workout

Day1:
Weighted dips: 4x8 reps with 35lbs plate/belt
Dumbell presses: 4x8 reps with 65lbs dumbells
Pull-ups: 4xmax with 25lbs plate/belt
Barbell behind neck shoulder press: 4x8 @ 120lbs
abs

Day2
Bench press: 4x8 @ 145~155
deadlift: 4x8 @ 230lbs
seated bent-over row: 4x8 140lbs
abs

Day3
Inclined bench press 4x8 @ 120lbs
parallel Squats 4x8 @ ~ 200lbs
Legpress 4x8 @ ~ 300lbs
calf machine
abs


Now I do the 5x5 routine,
my bench is at 200lbs for 5 reps
deadlift is 280lbs for 5 reps
deep squat is 200lbs for 5 reps.

All those lifts are at about (85~90% of 1rm)

2)
-I used to take 2 protein shakes/day and now I only take one. That's about ~400-500 cals less each day than what I used to get 1 month ago.
(0.5l skim milk, whey protein, 2 scoops of frozen yogourt)

Could that be the main culprit?

3)
[snip] Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength. Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-acting filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production. Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy Muscle fibers adapt to high volume training by increasing the number of mitochondria (organelles in the cell that are involved in ATP production) in the cell. This type of training also leads to the elevation of enzymes that are involved in glycolytic and oxidative pathways. The volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell and between the cells is increased with high volume training. This type of training contributes little to maximal strength while it does increase strength endurance due to mitochondria hypertrophy. Growth of connective tissue is also present with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. [snip]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

Could that explain the loss of mass? My muscles were soft and now they are hard.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Santa_Claus said:
Could that explain the loss of mass? My muscles were soft and now they are hard.

That belongs on the chat board - you have problems :). I don't know anything about this. If we are talking your actual muscles and not some layer of fat obscuring them I don't know what to tell you. I would view it as unimportant or just an odd byproduct of training.

Santa_Claus said:
1)

6'3
~200lbs @ ~14 bodyfat , no steroids
Old workout

Day1:
Weighted dips: 4x8 reps with 35lbs plate/belt*
Dumbell presses: 4x8 reps with 65lbs dumbells*
Pull-ups: 4xmax with 25lbs plate/belt
Barbell behind neck shoulder press: 4x8 @ 120lbs*
abs

Day2
Bench press: 4x8 @ 145~155*
deadlift: 4x8 @ 230lbs
seated bent-over row: 4x8 140lbs
abs


Day3
Inclined bench press 4x8 @ 120lbs*
parallel Squats 4x8 @ ~ 200lbs**
Legpress 4x8 @ ~ 300lbs
calf machine
abs

* OKAY - this is a bad sign relative to your strength in the dips. You are dipping 4x8 with bodyweight + 40lbs including the belt. That's 240 range. Your bench is just a bit more than 1/2 that at the exact same volume range. As a matter of fact it's not much stronger than your behind the neck press which is no stronger than your incline. As a matter of fact, I'm contrasting your dip power with all your presses. I'm betting you have long arms/weak shoulders? Your pressing power is not so good besides the dip.

Now I do the 5x5 routine,
my bench is at 200lbs for 5 reps
deadlift is 280lbs for 5 reps
deep squat is 200lbs for 5 reps.

** Your bench is getting better (along with all your lifts - it's only been 3 weeks), so you are going in the right direction, you won't have to deal with this for long. Maybe after the 5x5 throw in 4 weeks of general training and include dips again for a bit since you seem to be good at them. It looks like you had to sacrifice some weight on the squat to get the full range. Your 5RM is now just even with your old 4x8 volume weight. That is a big difference. It will serve you well as you progress but sometimes it's 1 step backward before you get to take a few forward as in this case. The legpress might also have been serving some development here particularly in the quads which most people are quick to notice. With lower weight on the squat and no leg press this is part of your step back. It'll be okay.

All those lifts are at about (85~90% of 1rm)
Santa_Claus said:
2)
-I used to take 2 protein shakes/day and now I only take one. That's about ~400-500 cals less each day than what I used to get 1 month ago.
(0.5l skim milk, whey protein, 2 scoops of frozen yogourt)

Could that be the main culprit?

400-500 calories is a lot. If someone consumes 4000 calories that's 12.5% of total intake (assume 500 cals). Going the other way, someone who consumed 4000 calories and dropped the shake goes to 3500 so now it's 14.3% of total intake. That's pretty significant. Your activity level also plays a part but that's what I mean about caloric excess and a margin. It almost sounds like you needed that shake just to maintain your bodyweight. I can't say for certain but you should not be losing weight (even if some muscle is attrophying). Don't worry too much though. Add back the calories and keep pushing on the lifts, in 3 weeks you've made some major progress so in 2-3 months time you'll be golden with an enhanced body. In honesty I don't think you had a good foundation in the compound lifts before starting this. Don't worry, this will give it to you in a hurry but in your case you just have to suck it up and wait for your lifts to build in. I guarantee it won't be too long and you will blow past where you were before.

Santa_Claus said:
3)
[snip] Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength. Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-acting filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production. Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy Muscle fibers adapt to high volume training by increasing the number of mitochondria (organelles in the cell that are involved in ATP production) in the cell. This type of training also leads to the elevation of enzymes that are involved in glycolytic and oxidative pathways. The volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell and between the cells is increased with high volume training. This type of training contributes little to maximal strength while it does increase strength endurance due to mitochondria hypertrophy. Growth of connective tissue is also present with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. [snip]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

Could that explain the loss of mass? My muscles were soft and now they are hard.

If the above paragraph is what the hard/soft this relates to, you are deep in the world of PhD land. Siff, Zatsiorsky, and Verkhoshansky are great to read (check out the books Science and Practice of Strength Training - Zat and Supertraining Siff/Ver) but really getting your brain around this stuff requires a level of knowledge far beyond what is required to make optimal use of their programs and training styles. It's interesting but don't get too bogged down in this. The original article is just pointing out that strength doesn't necessarily correlate to size nor does hypertrophy follow strength increases in a linear manner over a short period despite strong correlations over longer periods. Work on increasing your capacities in the core lifts (not necessarily 1RM but 5x5 is fine), eat more than you need, and the science will take care of itself for the most part.
 
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Is there a way to make DFHT into a 3day a week split. Could you go upper lower upper one week then lower upper lower the following week?
 
Another question on food intake: if you are not a newbie, is it still possible to achieve strength gains while on a caloric deficit? If so, how is this possible?
 
|D_J^B_J| said:
Another question on food intake: if you are not a newbie, is it still possible to achieve strength gains while on a caloric deficit? If so, how is this possible?
Absolutely, increased neural efficiency is probably the biggest. Most BBers or those training with similar BBing style programs have a massive margin for improvement here - probably years worth. For very experienced PLs or OLs these gains will come much slower as they've been working on this for the duration of their involvement in the sport.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Topside said:
Is there a way to make DFHT into a 3day a week split. Could you go upper lower upper one week then lower upper lower the following week?

The problem with that is that you now only have 75% of the volume on any given week and the load applied will be uneven. I imagine you could even it out to a degree by training every other day (still a decrease in volume but a bit less) but this will have you rotating your training days throughout the week for the course of the program. It's very hard to take a fully worked over canned program like these, change the number of days in the gym, and not make compromises.
 
I'm taking another attempt at a second run-through of the program. This time around I've made a couple of substitutions: for bent rows I'm doing power cleans from the floor and for Wednesday squats I'm doing wide-stance box squats to somewhere near parallel.

I've always liked cleans but never done them at a rate of 70-80 reps a week and they're killing my forearms and biceps but less each week. I never realised my form was so bad until doing this kind of volume. I also think that they're helping me a lot with my deadlifts. I've never felt so completely in control of a deadlift as I did in yesterday's session and I feel that the cleans, or, maybe, the box squats, have ironed out a weakness or two in my deads. I hope next week (week3) doesn't prove me wrong.

It only just occurred to me that the 5x5 program isn't too far removed from the Korte 3x3. Just a basic squat, press, pull three times a week until you drop with some chinups thrown in.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

The cleans shouldn't be hammering your bicepts. I'm thinking you are arming it too much. The 2nd pull should explode the weight up to where you can rack it on the clavicles. The only time one is pulling on the weight after explosion is to pull themselves under the bar to catch it lower and that just aides in accelerating you down rather than pulling the bar higher. If the weight gets too heavy you can always switch over to clean pulls and use enough weight to just perform a heavy accelerated shrug and make the bar weightless at the top. You'll likely want straps.

The more you pull the better. This is why I've always recommended other variants rather than just the dead as you'll be able to pull more often and with higher volume. The dead is just too hard for that unless someone is really weak in it. The box squats will absolutely help your dead. What's your ratio of box squat to full OLY squat? Conceivably your squatting load is lower this time if you use less weight so it's something worth calculating out.

Korte's 3x3 is damn hard and is really geared to someone that can accomodate a fair amount of volume. The 5x5 with the pyramid days and the subjective ramps rather than strict % allows people some extra margin. Plus, deadlifting 3x per week is really hard especially when it's done last. Have you ever done this program? It's worth giving a shot to for a training cycle but be prepared to suffer every workout. If you look at the Smolov you'll also find a lot in common with the 5x5 except that Smolov is even more squat focused and applies higher volume and strict percentages - it assumes you can fill in the gaps appropriately for your other lifts so it's not a true "canned program" like the others with the exception of the squats.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I was thinking the same with respect to the load on my biceps. The latest PurePowermag has a decent section on cleans and I'm planning to take it into the gym with me tomorrow and make a huge effort to get closer to good form.

I'm only doing the box squats as replacement for the light Wednesday squats and I'm using more weight than I would have used for the light squats. The volume aspect did occur to me but more as a concern of doing overmuch. They seem to be hitting my glutes and hamstrings much more than normal squats which was one big reason for trying them. I want a better deadlift and I'm hoping to finish this run of the program with a deadlift in the 400-450 range.

I've never done the Korte 3x3. I remember the first time I saw it and it does appeal to me. I intend to do either the Korte or Smolov before this year is out. Unless I decide that I must work on my squats, though, it's likely to be the Korte. I'll note your warnings on the volume and maybe I'll need to work a bit on my GPP beforehand and also nail down my 1RM weights.
 
is there any way you acn do this routine, and concentrate more on deadlifts, i love them so much. im in the 7th week, im feeling great, btw, i swithched deading 3x3 on wed, to 1x3 because i felt like i needed to lift heavier. was that a mistake?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

TheOak84 said:
is there any way you acn do this routine, and concentrate more on deadlifts, i love them so much. im in the 7th week, im feeling great, btw, i swithched deading 3x3 on wed, to 1x3 because i felt like i needed to lift heavier. was that a mistake?

We'll see. What you did was significantly lower total volume on the lift to raise intensity. Ideally the best time to do that would have been at the end of the 3x3 phase and scale everything down even more to hit some heavy doubles and singles a few weeks out. You sort of get 2 waves of volume with volume in each successive wave decreasing significantly (although total load rising inside each wave) and intensity increasing. This would have given you the 3rd wave - or actually a 3rd mesocycle would be the way to look at it.

It's not really going to have a major impact one way or another but ideally, this is how you'd want to deal with it. There is just a lot more total load in 3x3 than 1x3, the incremental extra weight can't compensate for all the volume at the slightly lower weight.
 
thnx

i am running the cycle again, so, ill know what to look for next time, ill prolly get better results the 2nd time around also.
 
Honestly, there's so much else going on and most people are so new to this type of training that the difference it makes is going to be neither here nor there so don't sweat it. It's just worth explaining and illustrating so that people can incorporate this stuff properly (of course you could also taper the entire volume over the 2nd mesocycle and not peak the 3x3 stuff instead winding up at singles and doubles without a separate third wave/mesocycle).
 
ok I know i would probably find everyting is this long ass thread .. ha ha but i read about 15pages and am tired ;) but lets see if i got it right...

ok.. week 1-4 prep work .. i think that is what you called it..
I will be doing Squat, Bench, P/C instead of rows..
Monday little warm up then 5 sets of 5 with the same weight if i get all 25 reps.
............I will move up in weight 5lbs on my next Monday workout of 5x5 and I plan to do this with all lifts on monday.

Wednesday I will take off about 15% of the weight and do the same thing just will be more on the light side but i will make up for it with intesatly. Going for speed and explosivness.

Friday I will do 5 X 5 but i will start out will a really light weight and pyramid up till i get to a max weight that will acually be the heaviest 1 singal set of the week.
like say i am working up to 315 for 5 i will start with
The bar for 10-20 warm up.. practice my speed.
1st set 135 for 5
2nd set 185 for 5
3rd set 245 for 5
4th set 285 for 5
5th the one i was builiding to 315 for 5
do that for 4 weeks..

then deload. 1 week ( or the 5th week)
do monday 3x3 warm up
and o 3 x3 with as much as i can do aiming for 9 total reps of the same weight.
trying to get them all if i do ;) with all exercises..

Thursday pyrimid up to a final heavy set of 3.

then do everything just like the 1st 4 weeks ...
but it will be 3x3 3 times a week...
monday 3x3 with same weight
wed. 15% less 3x3 all same weight.
Fri. pyrimid 3sets 3reps on 3rd set should be heavier than the weight used monday.
and i will do this for 4 weeks..
..........????? do i have it all correct so far.. If i am just sticking to the big 3 and no extra work..???
and when would i be working up to .. a final 1 rep to check my 1rep max?? for all lifts... how would I go about that... on the last week on friday.. do 3x3 pyramid .. but go ahead to move up to a 1 rep or a single....

OK... fill in the blanks if you would... I did read the bill starr book.. but the work out was a little more simple.. this seems a little bit more of exciting version..
I will take any info.. thanks..
 
The best way to navigate this thread is through the Table of Contents in the very first post on page 1. Everything major that's been written is indexed up to around page 20.

I have two versions here. These are the master posts for each although the dual factor one includes 2 more explanations that you've like run into just from reading. The one linked below and now appearing first on the TOC is the most straightforward and comprehensive. Rather than me filling in all the spots (it's late and your post is a bit hard to follow), why don't you compare your understanding to it and see if there is anything left to clarify. It's a much much better explanation.

This is a dual factor periodized version:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

The one in the Bill Starr book is a single factor program similar to this one: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15

To be honest, depending on your experience the single factor may work just as well. It's only after you get to the point where you aren't progressing anymore or very suboptimally using those programs that something like dual factor really shines and that tends to be for fairly experienced athletes. To be honest, look at all the people here who get stronger in the first 4 weeks of the dual factor volume stage - for an experienced lifter, this should not happen so either workout would have probably worked fairly well for them. But as they progress, they'll need to rely more and more on proper periodization and programming.
 
Madcow2 said:
Absolutely, increased neural efficiency is probably the biggest. Most BBers or those training with similar BBing style programs have a massive margin for improvement here - probably years worth. For very experienced PLs or OLs these gains will come much slower as they've been working on this for the duration of their involvement in the sport.

Are you serious? So you are saying that one's strength has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of calories ingested?
 
|D_J^B_J| said:
Are you serious? So you are saying that one's strength has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of calories ingested?
I don't see where he wrote or suggested that.

You certainly can get stronger on a restricted diet along with losing weight. It does help to be portly at the time. You can even grow muscle while slimming. The body is constantly breaking down and recreating muscle; it's part of the stasis system. Building muscle consists of getting the body to work harder on the building than the destruction. Anabolic vs catabolic. The fatter you are the easier this is.

Don't forget that strength increase also comes from the CNS being able to recruit more muscle into an exercise than it previously could. Thus it's even possible to lose muscle and be stronger.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

|D_J^B_J| said:
Are you serious? So you are saying that one's strength has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of calories ingested?

As blut wump said, neural efficiency has to do with the CNS and ability to recruit and generate maximal force. Strength relates to calories very indirectly in that additional weight/mass/fat can improve leverages and hypertrophy is correlated to strength over the mid-to-long term. Hypertrophy and strength don't always track each other in a perfect linear fashion over shorter time frames. One frequently finds strength increasing for a period and then hypertrophy showing up at different intervals. Over longer periods this relationship holds nicely though. So there are different ways to increase strength; hypertrophy (related to caloric intake) and neural efficiency (related to CNS) are the main two.

As an example there are several people who have used this 5x5 program and not had a caloric excess in their diet. They have gotten significantly stronger but weight gain has been very minimal along with body composition change. In the case of one of the very recent posters in this thread (I think 10-15 posts back) you'll find he's down 3lbs thinking he lost muscle (there is a major issue that I addressed) and is much stronger in all the core lifts. Obviously, strength is up but caloric intake is neutral to down in all cases and significant new hypertrophy is not present.
 
Another, misleading, way, in the short-term, also springs to mind and that's technique. An increase in strength isn't necessarily represented by being able to lift more. You may simply be performing the lift better and being able to do more weight because of the improvement in technique. This can be important for a competing lifter who has to try and maximize all aspects of his lifts.
 
Actually the amount of weight lifted and handles plays a huge role in the hypertrophy equation too. Both technique and neural efficiency are often overlooked by BBers but they will absolutely play a large part in success if improved upon.
 
Okay, that makes more sense... sorry about my misunderstanding earlier.

One final question relating to diet which has been on my mind for a while:
Earlier on in this thread, it was said that in order to build muscle, it doesn't matter how often you eat, as long as you are in a sustained caloric surplus throughout an extended period of time. However, I was told that in order to grow, it is necessary to feed the muscles every 3 hours or so? Is this correct? Or will my muscles still hypertrophy if I ate enough calories to grow but ate every 6 hours rather than every 3 hours (i.e. if I ate more with each meal but went without food for longer)?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

|D_J^B_J| said:
Okay, that makes more sense... sorry about my misunderstanding earlier.

One final question relating to diet which has been on my mind for a while:
Earlier on in this thread, it was said that in order to build muscle, it doesn't matter how often you eat, as long as you are in a sustained caloric surplus throughout an extended period of time. However, I was told that in order to grow, it is necessary to feed the muscles every 3 hours or so? Is this correct? Or will my muscles still hypertrophy if I ate enough calories to grow but ate every 6 hours rather than every 3 hours (i.e. if I ate more with each meal but went without food for longer)?

Okay - this is the type of diet minutia stuff that I don't want to get into but I'll answer this one quesiton and then I'll go back to my previous stance of only covering training.

Who said 3 hours is required for growth? 6 will work fine. Perhaps it's more optimal every 3 but to the degree this will affect hypertrophy, not really too sure since your 6 hour spaced meals will be twice as big and take longer to fully digest thus spreading calories a bit anyway. There are obvious implications for possible insulin spikes and fat storage that might show up a tad (i.e. might not be hugely significant either) but as to hypertrophy specifically I'm not sure it would be noticable at all (maybe it would but probably not significant - over a very long period then yeah, you might notice a difference). Basically, over a short term this factor isn't so overwhelmingly huge (like training and caloric excess) as to drive or significantly hinder your progress. It's a question of optimality that will show up over much longer periods but might not be noticable at all in the short run.

So that's the end of diet. There's a whole diet forum and an entire world of diet information and misinformation to navigate as well as a ton of diet obcessive people running around. It's nothing against you or anyone else, but training is enough of a hassle and you can micromanage diet until the cows come home. My advice is to make sure it's balanced, wholesome, reasonable, and if you want to grow make sure there's caloric excess. If you choose to eat every 3 hours on the dot, measure your food and fluid intake, count every bit of vitamin, macronutrient, and trace mineral, and believe in some of the more exotic stuff than so be it. Maybe some of it will help, maybe it won't matter at all. However, if you don't have a training program that can allow you to make consistent gains over the course of a year and don't consume a caloric excess - you can forget about putting on muscle.
 
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