Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Madcow2]

It's easier to work backward than forward. Figure out your 1x5 max, adjust downward around 10% (likely a bit more) for your 5x5 max. Put these weights at week 3. Then work backward and fill in the ramping weeks 1/2 - be conservative and start reasonably. As you go through weeks 1/2 keep watch and make sure your next week's weight and future target is still reasonable - adjust as needed. Assuming week 3 was successful add a "guess"timate to it for week 4 (if you missed the weight remains the same). Week 5 is the same weights as week 4 just the 3x3 rep scheme.

You can do the same exercise for 3x1 and 3x3 for week 8 and back out 6/7. Once you hit week 4/5 you can look ahead and readjust as needed. As you progress through the weeks just keep an eye on the next week and the target record adjusting as needed. When you hit week 8 add an increment to week 9 for all successful lifts.

After completion of the program take your week 4 and 9 successful records and you can place them in the week 3/8 slot (ideally these weeks should be records too so you'd add an increment to your previously successful records). Then do the same exercise of working forward and back but this time take into account how well you tolerated the loading/deloading and where your weights were set. Maybe you should start a bit higher on the ramp, maybe lower. It depends on you.

The most essential factor the first time through is that you start reasonably, have a plan, and be able to adjust it as you go. Maybe your target for week 3 is too light considering your success in week 2. Maybe too heavy and you want to back it down a bit and slide down week 4 also.

Once you've established pertinent records and have an idea of your tolerances, it's smooth sailing and you can really dial this program in and tailor it specifically to you. A log is invaluable.

 

[Carl Carlson]

I just wanna throw in my $0.02 and say that so far this program is pretty awesome. I'm about to finish my third week and even though some of my weight selections were too light (I was sick when I started so my strength was down, but it's since returned) I'm still making awesome progress.

Also, I've been doing cardio like a madman (mixed martial arts training 2x week, 20 mins cardio when I lift and 45 mins on my off-days) and my weight has remained pretty steady... I haven't been monitoring my BF%, but I am definitely getting leaner. All this and my diet has been awful. Pretty impressive.

 

[JKurz1]

I think I'm going to either start Monday or April 1..........if I've been used to training 6x a week, youdon't think I need a layoff first? Just start light?

Also, like to get some ideas on what you guys do on T, TH, and the weekends? What kind of lifts/cardio? Does your diet change? I have a very hard time force feeding and then doing nothing all day.........much thanks!

 

[psychedout]

I think I'm going to either start Monday or April 1..........if I've been used to training 6x a week, youdon't think I need a layoff first? Just start light?

Also, like to get some ideas on what you guys do on T, TH, and the weekends? What kind of lifts/cardio? Does your diet change? I have a very hard time force feeding and then doing nothing all day.........much thanks!

I took the Fri/Sat/Sun off right before I started the program. Seemed to do the body good. Especially because I normally average 2 days off per month.

 

[blut wump]

I think I'm going to either start Monday or April 1..........if I've been used to training 6x a week, youdon't think I need a layoff first? Just start light?

Also, like to get some ideas on what you guys do on T, TH, and the weekends? What kind of lifts/cardio? Does your diet change? I have a very hard time force feeding and then doing nothing all day.........much thanks!

By week three or four you won't be asking these questions; you'll be thinking about how far away week 5 is. Until then, do some light cardio or core work. Take up swimming or discover walking. Be careful not to burn your legs out too much since you'll be needing them to squat with 3x per week.

 

[lavi]

madcow, is there any way that it could be adopted for more maximal training? say, making the intensity phases only working up to a 3rm on everything and then somehow adjusting the volume phase accordingly?

 

[Madcow2]

When I think maximal training - I think 1RM. You say you want "the intensity phase only working up to a 3RM" (which it currently does) and then adjusting the volume accordingly. Can you be a bit more explicit - not sure I understand.

 

[JKurz1]

OK....I'm set for Monday.........my lil' brother is gonna start today...he's 17 and hasnt trained much at all..great athlete, but just doesnt have the strength........here's his stats/plan of attack:

6'1, 165, 8-9% bf.........

MAX BENCH = 205 FOR 5
MAX SQUAT = 215 FOR 5 (TALL AND BAD KNEE SYNDROME TOO I GUESS
MAX ROW = 185 FOR 5
MAX DEAD = 315 FOR 2

So, if he goes today, day 1 wk 1 should it look something like this?

SQAUAT - BAR X 12, 135 X 10 THEN
155X5, 165X5, 175X5, 185 X 5, 195 X 5 (OR DOES HE HIT HIS MAX HERE?)
BENCH - 135 X 12 THEN
185X5 FOR 5 SETS
ROW - 135X5, 145X5, 155X 5, 165X5, 175 X 5

Little calf, tri or hamstring work............

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

It's all wrong man. I'm sorry to say and this was kind of what I was getting at before.

1) If you are squating for 1x5 on Monday than both bench and row are 5x5 days. This will reverse for Friday but generally I like to do 5x5 squat and 1x5 bench and row on Monday.
2) The top/target weights for the day are too heavy. How is week 2 going to be more if you are already right on or close to your max for 1x5 and 5x5, what about weeks 3/4.

If your 1x5 max is 205, then this would be placed at week 3 with week 4 being 215ish for now. Week 1 could be 165, week 2 185. So it would go weeks 1/2/3/4 => 165/185/205/215. Your targets for working with 5x5 is the same. You need to start below your maxes and work up to them over a period of weeks. If you start right on them, there is no where to work up to because you are already there. Week 1 is not particularly heavy or hard. You might breeze right through it. It's acclimization and some volume loading not training overly hard or to failure on the lifts.

If I had the time I'd just bite this in the ass and write out a full routine with every warm up, set and rep but I'm absolutely slammed and that will take a damn long time. Take a look at the other logs people have posted. Suffice to say, ramping is over a period of weeks. You are ramping to records so in the preceding weeks you must start significantly below your records in order to create an upward slope (ramp) in the weight being used.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Madcow, I'm curious as to why ramping is so important, especially when the weights are so far below a person's maxes. Does this relate to HST's idea of progressive loading, and that bigger increments in weight (20 lb. jumps, as above) lead to greater overall gains?

I understand how and why "ramping" would work in that case, but I was just wondering if that was the actual reason for it.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

MAX BENCH = 205 FOR 5
MAX SQUAT = 215 FOR 5 (TALL AND BAD KNEE SYNDROME TOO I GUESS
MAX ROW = 185 FOR 5
MAX DEAD = 315 FOR 2


M:
Squat 5x5..............165...........185...........200...........210
Bench 1x5..............180............195............205.........215
Row 1x5 ................155.............165...........175...........185..

INSTRUCTIONS:
Squat 5x5 you are warming up and then using the weight provided for 5 sets of 5 (all sets done with the target weight)
Bench 1x5 you are performing a pyramid of 5 sets of 5. In each set the weight will move progressively upward. The target weight listed is the weight for your top set (this is what matters - the pyramid is just there to give you extra volume). So for Wk1 your top set is 180 for 5 so you might do 135x5, 145x5, 155x5, 165x5, and then the target of 180x5.
Row 1x5 - see bench above and adjust target weight to chart and figure a comparable pyramid scheme.


W:......................Wk1............Wk2...........Wk3...........Wk4
Squat 5x5 ............140.............160...........170...........175....
Deadlift 5x5 .........225..............255...........275..........295........
Military 5x5
Pullups 5x5

INSTRUCTIONS:
This should be self explanatory - look at the Monday Squat 5x5. It's exactly the same idea for the deadlift, military, and pullups (don't need to be nuts with pullups just add weight via a dumbell if you can do tons of them). The dead was largely a guesstimate. Take 15% off the squat weight used on Monday now do 5x5 with it - I just multiplied the Monday squat by 0.85 and rounded off the number.



F:......................Wk1............Wk2...........Wk3...........Wk4
Squat 1x5..............185...........200...........215...........225
Bench 5x5..............165............175............185.........195
Row 5x5 ................165.............175...........185...........195..

INSTRUCTIONS
Squat 1x5 you are performing a pyramid of 5 sets of 5. In each set the weight will move progressively upward. The target weight listed is the weight for your top set (this is what matters - the pyramid is just there to give you extra volume). So for Wk1 your top set is 185 for 5 so you might do 135x5, 150x5, 165x5, 175x5, and then the target of 185x5.
Bench 5x5 you are warming up and then using the weight provided for 5 sets of 5 (all sets done with the target weight)
Row 5x5 - see bench above and adjust target weight to chart

NOTES:
1) If you fail to get the desired sets/reps - keep the weight the same for the next week.
2) You can adjust future targets based on your success or trouble in earlier weeks. Always keep a mind to what's coming. Weights in week 3 should be very hard but managable the first time you go through this program. Weights in week 4 are a stretch above that and failure may occure.

WEEK 5 AND ON:
So week 5 the weights stay the same but where you are doing 5x5 it is no 3x3 (a single target working set weight for 3 sets of 3) and where it is 1x5 it is now 1x3 (a pyramid of 3 sets culminating in a target top set of 3 - note: during the intensity phase the pyramid structure is not as essential, just get warm up and get to your target weight). Drop the Wednesday squats. The weights for week 5 are the same as week 4. You'll have to figure new targets for your record weeks based upon how you did in the volume phase. Put these targets out at weeks 8/9 and then back into numbers for weeks 6/7. Just select weights that are between week 5 and your record weeks of 8/9 and put them in for 6/7 so you get a ramping similar to the charts above (it may be more compact though but the idea is that the weight moves up each week). You can take extra days of rest as needed or decrease volume as needed.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow, I'm curious as to why ramping is so important, especially when the weights are so far below a person's maxes. Does this relate to HST's idea of progressive loading, and that bigger increments in weight (20 lb. jumps, as above) lead to greater overall gains?

I understand how and why "ramping" would work in that case, but I was just wondering if that was the actual reason for it.

To be honest I just randomly entered weights. But yes having the weights move progressively upward is important to the program. You are really only loading heavily in weeks 3/4 but you are applying scaling volume throughout the period. For a given set/rep scheme increasing the intensity results in higher total volume so this weight ramping acutually is ramping total volume also in an already high volume environment. To be honest, once you've done this a lot week 3 is a real record as is week 4, you end up starting pretty high on weeks 1/2 be still room for significant scale. People tend to be overely optomistic about their strength so I want them to start lower or else the volume in weeks 1/2 taxes then so much that they can't get through to weeks 3/4.

From just spending a few minutes with the HST program it looks like they are ramping intensity but at the same time scaling back on the number of reps - I'm guessing that this keeps volume under control and allows them to extend the loading cycle similar to doing the volume phase here for 6 weeks rather than 4 (but you start lighter in the case of the 5x5 rather than alter the sets/reps). This is a general athletics program (originally the clean was there for rows and high pulls for deads). It results in a ton of hypertrophy - probably as much as anything that's been thought up - but it is also the goal to greatly enhance the strength base. Over time I'm of the mind that the increased strength will lead to higher tolerances for volume and the ability to gain more muscle. Outside of that pure BBing purpose, people like to get stronger as a rule. Weight progression is quantitatively measurable and non subjective vs. physique improvments. I have yet to see anyone not enjoy seeing themselves improving in the lifts.

ANyway - I have to run. Tons to do.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

That's pretty much what I figured, thanks.

 

[psychedout]

Madcow2, I just finished Friday of the first week, quite enjoying it, but anyways, to the question at hand.

I don't get a whole lot of 'pump' while training on this routine. Is it because it was the first week and nothing is to failure really? Or is it just the way it is? What does this not as much pump stuff mean? (Besides the obvious that the lactic acid just isn't building up)

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2, I just finished Friday of the first week, quite enjoying it, but anyways, to the question at hand.

I don't get a whole lot of 'pump' while training on this routine. Is it because it was the first week and nothing is to failure really? Or is it just the way it is? What does this not as much pump stuff mean? (Besides the obvious that the lactic acid just isn't building up)

You've got it - the "pump" means nothing in regards to long-term results in hypertrophy or strength. The same with soreness from a workout (DOMS). Sometimes it kind of seems like they should matter but trust me when I say that it really means nothing. I actually don't enjoy pumps at all as I feel the tightness increases the chance for injury. And it's absolutely essential that you don't go in the gym and do high rep pumping warm ups on cold muscles - this is the best way to tear something.

Glad you are enjoying it. Get a few more weeks under your belt to where you start seeing the results and then you'll really be happy. Enjoy the weekend!

 

[Boss101]

madcow thanks for answering my pm I understand the program now and will start on Monday.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I'm going to have to chop the squats and deadlifts from the program for the time being. Until I get promoted to part-time supervisor at my job, where I do no work (unless yelling at everyone to do everything 10 minutes quicker, even if they were on time) what-so-ever, I plan to stick with benching and rowing. From everything I've read and heard, squats won't put actual mass on your arms. The hormonal response isn't as great as once believed.

That being so, I still believe I can get some results from the program. I plan to try it full throttle when the time comes, but the volume of work is intense. They put me on one of the top three heaviest lines (out of eight belts, some have packages ALL between 60-70 lbs., that need to be lifting from the floor, waist-height, and above your head, walked anywhere from 2-15 feet to the back of a truck, placed down, time and again. This is done for at least 15-20 trucks a night with 100+ packages per car. I guess they like me though, 'cause they entrusted me with one of the harder lines.

Anyway, how do you feel about this madcow? I know squats are the foundation of the program, but progress is progress, and even though I might not be doing squats, I can still keep in the presses, rows, and pullups. I'll try to throw in squatting or deadlifting once a week, but as of now the volume is killing my lower back.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I can already tell you madcow2 is not gonna be happy about that mainly because the squats are the key to the program and you are wrong about them not putting mass on the arms. They illicit a growth response to the whole body which makes your arms grow faster. I have done no direct arm work in 6 weeks now and my arms have grown 3/8". Overall muscle gain from the squats and deads will also be distributed to the arms because they are "total" body movements.

Imo, you might as well not even do the program if you aren't gonna squat and deadlift.

As for your work, well it's more fatiguing than heavy. You can still squat and deadlift. Just soak for 45minutes to an hour after, EAT ALOT, stay hydrated and sleep 8 hours every night.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Anyway, how do you feel about this madcow? I know squats are the foundation of the program, but progress is progress, and even though I might not be doing squats, I can still keep in the presses, rows, and pullups. I'll try to throw in squatting or deadlifting once a week, but as of now the volume is killing my lower back.

I hear where you are coming from. I kind of figured this wouldn't be the best time for you to start it. Do what you can while you get accomodated to the job. In 2 months you'll be fine. Applying the volume from your job and this workout together when you weren't used to either and doing it at exactly the same time is a recipe for failure. But who knew, I didn't know what your traiining was like beforehand and the worst thing that can happen is you pull the plug on the program for now. No biggie.

With the squats and deads out, that's a massive blow - I won't candycoat it for you. That will slash the majority of the gains from this or any program. Pulling from the floor and full body pressing (squat) are the most essential stuff you can do for your physique. If you put 100lbs on your squat, I will show you bigger arms. It's not the hormonal response so much as adding musculature to the entire base of the body. Direct arm work kind of fluffs out what's there and maximizes your base muscle. It won't drive long-term base progress over time though. The squat and DL will do this and you can do some arm specific work to fluff out that base later on. I'd put money on 2 exact guys doing this program and training for a year. 1 does arm work and the other doesn't. At the end of the program the guy who didn't puts in 8 weeks of general lifting and hits the arm work - their arms will be the same size at the end of this.

Just to give you an idea, I think g ghellar is the guy who ran this program but had a pretty severe back injury around a year ago. He swapped squats with leg press, eliminated the deads, and did powershrugs instead of rows. He trained hard and got stronger but his gains were modest at best. I mean, kudos to him the guy is injured and is only getting back into stuff now - I've had a back injury, I know what it is to sneeze and almost pass out. Shit, for over a month I had to haul my underwear up my legs with my cane because I couldn't bend at the waist - I'd just throw them on the floor, step in, and cane them up. But, take a look at the gains other people have gotten (some are really good for experienced lifters but everybody as a rule does fairly well on this and gets a good increase) and let me tell you, the difference is to a large degree the squats and also the dead.

 

[lavi]

When I think maximal training - I think 1RM. You say you want "the intensity phase only working up to a 3RM" (which it currently does) and then adjusting the volume accordingly. Can you be a bit more explicit - not sure I understand.

i was just thinking of making everything for a 3rm rather than some for a 3rm and some for 3x3. incorporating 1rms would be ideal though. just curious about the possibility.

 

[Madcow2]

i was just thinking of making everything for a 3rm rather than some for a 3rm and some for 3x3. incorporating 1rms would be ideal though. just curious about the possibility.

The volume is part of the stimulus and it works fairly well for pushing the weights up. I would really caution you to just run it as is the first time through - there are a lot of ways to do this program but I've found that people unfamiliar with this type of training screw it up and as they are isolated over the internet. It's not like gains in your 3x3 and 1x3 won't push your 1RM up substantially. What one would do would be to gradually work into the lower rep ranges reducing total volume (weight moves up, reps go down - lower volume). If you wanted to peak your 1RM, you'd go from triples to doubles to a period of heavy singles with low frequency/volume and plenty of rest at which point you'd perform your "records" or do a PL meet or whatever. For straight PL though there are other changes that would be made as this is more general conditioning rather than PL specific.

 

[JKurz1]

The volume is part of the stimulus and it works fairly well for pushing the weights up. I would really caution you to just run it as is the first time through - there are a lot of ways to do this program but I've found that people unfamiliar with this type of training screw it up and as they are isolated over the internet. It's not like gains in your 3x3 and 1x3 won't push your 1RM up substantially. What one would do would be to gradually work into the lower rep ranges reducing total volume (weight moves up, reps go down - lower volume). If you wanted to peak your 1RM, you'd go from triples to doubles to a period of heavy singles with low frequency/volume and plenty of rest at which point you'd perform your "records" or do a PL meet or whatever. For straight PL though there are other changes that would be made as this is more general conditioning rather than PL specific.

Has anyone developed an excel spreadsheet to track there lifts? I would think this to be not only a useful, but essential tool for this program.......K for posting it.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

You don't need an excel spreadsheet for this program. It's really quite simple once get the jist of it.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

It might not be a horrible idea but the problem is that it locks in specific %'s and given the wide variability in an individual's ability to tolerate loading or higher/lower ramping (starting weights) it ends up doing more harm than good as people don't adjust and simply lift at a given %. The more one runs a program like this the better they are able to dial-in their training. For instance, over the first 4 weeks two 350x5x5 record squatters, one might be able to start at 315 while another might have to start much lighter at 275 (randomly throwing numbers). To make the spreadsheet work for everyone you wind up starting everyone low where there are plenty of guys who might benefit from beginning their loading period with heavier weights. The same for the record week - there are some lifters at the extreme that can tolerate close to 3 weeks of record loading - while most others sit around the 10 day mark when loading heavily.

 

[JKurz1]

gotcha......just thought it would be helpful to track your weights/reps.........my brother did the day 1 yesterday......given his maxes, he said it was way too easy...I guess cause his max bench is 225 for 5 and he was starting at 135 for 5.......I hope he keeps it up though..........He did:

SQUATS -
165 X 5 X 5
135X5, 145X5, 150X5, 160X5, 165 X5 BENCH
B.ROWS SAME AS SQUAT.........

for some reason he then did 3 sets of leg press, 2 leg ext and 2 ham curls...........

 

[Madcow2]

FYI - on the last page you provided 205x5 as the Max Bench not 225 - that's a 10% difference and very material. Even under 205 he was starting in the 160's for 5x5 and around 180 for 1x5 (the top set is all that matters in the pyramid, you are just doing the other sets to get volume in). His Barbell rows were supposed to end with a top set of 155 (10lbs less than the squat. As for the leg press, ext, curls - I don't even know what to say.

At some point you basically have to say - is all this trouble worth it? I mean, there are 12 pages now. This thread is a pretty solid resource for training. The first page has info all over it and not 1 but 3 separate examples of this program written by 3 different people. In the next 11 pages I've tried to completely answer every concievable question in detail. If this is something you or your brother are interested in, you have to be willing to make a commitment to read the thing and understand it. This is what everyone else has done and it's not rocket science - just basically sitting down, trying to understand it, and writing it out for yourself. Are people going to ask questions? Sure, because they want to be 100% before they start and that's expected. But, looking over the past few pages I'm totally unconvinced that you've taken the time to more than scan it over. I've sat here and answered a lot of questions trying to help you get on track with things that are covered in depth multiple times on page 1.

I don't mean to be a dick but it's kind of frustrating. The whole reason this thread is here and I've taken the time with it is so that people have a resource and a program that absolutely works and works really well. No voodoo or 'instinctive training' or 'know your body' but merely a general protocol that is time tested and proven to stack muscle on people. Once they try it and understand the methodology, I've even provided additional posts to help them adapt it and plan longer training cycles addressing specific needs. However, the effectiveness of this resource is in a large part dependent upon people putting in a modest amount of sincere effort and reading the thing.

Believe me, I'm not getting anything out of this thread or answering questions. It's all here for other people, I'm in the process of some major work and I'm taking time which from a monetary or family standpoint is far far better spent elsewhere and writing this stuff up for people. I don't begrudge the time, it's freely given and I choose to give it because I want to give something back and take what I've learned over the years and make it more accessible to the general population because I think there is a serious overreliance on drugs for gains and that real training information that works has slipped away from the general populace. I do get enjoyment out of seeing people happy and enthusiastic about their progress and excited to be learning about why all this works but I think that's a fairly unselfish trade.

So anyway, I've put a lot of time into answering questions and lately specifically your questions which across the board already have answers mutliple times in this thread. Right now I'm of the opinion that there is a lack of commitment on your part. I don't mind taking my time to help people but I'm not going to expend my effort if they are unwilling to expend some of their own and when I look at your posts over the last few pages I just don't believe you've done that. This has been raw spoon feeding on my part.

Once again, not to be a dick but you need to sit down and ask yourself whether or not this is worth it to you. Are you willing to read the thread, if necessary print it out and take some notes as you go through it. I'd really like to see you make some nice gains, get a lot stronger, be thrilled about the program, and learn enough to put you on a track of progress for the next few years - even share what you've learned with others and get them moving in the right direction. That said, I'm unwilling to carry someone and I feel like that's been going on for the past few pages (and I've hinted at this before). If you don't want to do it, don't do it. If you do, you'll have to want it bad enough to put in some effort. If it's not worth the effort to read, then do what you want to do and be happy. That's the whole point anyway, a lot of people are made happy by progressing, learning, and taking control of their own destiny with regards to lifting and training. Maybe this does it for you maybe it doesn't but I'm unwilling to spend my time (which I happen to value fairly highly) if you aren't willing to expend yours.

 

[view]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

gotcha......just thought it would be helpful to track your weights/reps.........my brother did the day 1 yesterday......given his maxes, he said it was way too easy...I guess cause his max bench is 225 for 5 and he was starting at 135 for 5.......I hope he keeps it up though..........He did:

SQUATS -
165 X 5 X 5
135X5, 145X5, 150X5, 160X5, 165 X5 BENCH
B.ROWS SAME AS SQUAT.........

for some reason he then did 3 sets of leg press, 2 leg ext and 2 ham curls...........

some accessorie work is fine, but leg press, leg ext, and leg curls are not lol.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

For some reason, I think he's an idiot.

 

[view]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

For some reason, I think he's an idiot.

well, i'm not sure i'd go that far, but he has serious issues breaking his habits. his OCD may be a big part of that though. he needs to realize that AM cardio regularly and training weights 6x week and only hitting most bodyparts once is not the way to go for the vast majority of people. he complains of no gains, but won't fix what is broken. i think his 'brother' is him lol.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

heres a good list of exercises fr you guys to look at..give the page time to load

http://www.bsu.edu/webapps/strengthlab/musclelist.asp?id=60

 

[JKurz1]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

well, i'm not sure i'd go that far, but he has serious issues breaking his habits. his OCD may be a big part of that though. he needs to realize that AM cardio regularly and training weights 6x week and only hitting most bodyparts once is not the way to go for the vast majority of people. he complains of no gains, but won't fix what is broken. i think his 'brother' is him lol.

*cough*..did u guys miss the part where I said I havent started it yet....I gave my brother the jist of it, and apparently he should it for himself as I did a poor job teaching the principle........I am pretty confident I understand in full and plan to start soon......as for you Tom, go f- youself kid......

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I know you said you haven't started yet. Regardless of that, it takes you such a long time to grasp something. It's ridiculous, to be honest. The worst part is, you've got a couple years on me and your level of intelligence and ability to comprehend basically anything reflect that of a child. So, really, think before you call me a kid, 'cause it seems to be the only thing you've got against me, and it's a pretty moot point.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

*cough*..did u guys miss the part where I said I havent started it yet....I gave my brother the jist of it, and apparently he should it for himself as I did a poor job teaching the principle........I am pretty confident I understand in full and plan to start soon......as for you Tom, go f- youself kid......

pay no mind to the negativity of certain people..
we learn by doing..if you make a mistake along the way it wont kill you.... we're not performing an operation here lol...

this thread should pretty much answer anyones questions on how to get rolling on this routine..just start on monday youll be fine

 

[Madcow2]

Just so it's easy to find again I'm going to copy and link another thing I wrote for the anabolid board. I've said it all hear before in different places but this one has a few unique facets that might come in handy again.

Source Post: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4647007&postcount=22

First of all - soreness has no correlation to the effectiveness of a workout. It is generally a product of low frequency and high volume training. Being sore is neither good nor bad - although it can impede another workout which is generally bad. Phenomenal gains have been made on programs where athletes almost never get sore. This is accepted as fact by every researcher and strength coach in the world - DOMS has no correlation to either a good or bad workout.

As for recovery - do you really think muscles recover in a few days? Maybe a week right? Nope, look up complete tissue remodelming, it can take well over a month from a single bout of weight training if I remember correctly but regardless it is far longer than any split in use. Bottom line you are almost always training in some type of recovery deficit.

Where did the 1x per week come from? It came about because BBers started talking about overtraining back in the late 1980's (at the time just previous to this the common workout in the muscle mags was 3 on 1 off and I remember a fair amount of AM/PM days too). A few guys began to notice that if they took time off they came back stronger. They then thought that this was because their workouts weren't optimally spaced and timed. This is the essense of single factor theory or Supercompensation where you go in the gym and work ultra hard pushing your muscles to the point of full exertion (welcome to the training to failure school). Then you retreat quietly and heal up slightly stronger. Just after you've gotten your growth response but before you begin to detrain and lose it you hit that muscle again and do the same thing. The idea is that you can link up a series of these and grow in a linear pattern.

Pretty fucking cool eh? Too bad it's wrong. First, there's no scientific backing. Arthur Jones is partially responsible for this shit and he's long since recanted his short, intense, and infrequent methodology a la Mentzer's Heavy Duty. I will say that this program does work for beginners but for an experienced lifter it is drastically suboptimal. Oh yeah - if you take a shitty stimulus and magnify the response with enough drugs you can still make progress but for a given individual a supperior stimulus would allow for more gains at an individual's given dosage or equal gains for that person at a lower dosage level.

So where does that leave us? Well luckily people figured this stuff out a couple decades ago. There's a fatigue factor that gets built into this stuff and managing this fatique is important (both CNS and at the muscular level). You see, you can make gains and train without being fully recovered, it's actually better (think back to the people taking some time off and noticing they came back stronger - we'll revisit this in a moment). Rather than thinking about a single workout as a stimulus, consider a block of training - let's say 2-4 weeks. The fatigue is actually a recovery deficit that accrues during stimulative training. Unfortunately, a deficit means that it can't continue forever because you are running your body into the ground - but wait! This is actually fortunate.

You see, the idea that an experienced lifter can go into the gym and train once and then have his body respond with increased musculature on a consistent basis is rediculous. The body is first and foremost a survival machine. Muscle is calorically expensive and it's the last thing the body wants to add (people who had this genetic makeup died in famines very quickly and aren't around to reproduce). So a single session for an experienced lifter won't convince the body to pack on more muscle, and definitely not a short and infrequent stimulus because the body isn't convinced there is need. Bring in the fatigue accrual - in a training block of coninuously increasing fatigue the body gets a different message. The message is that there is a frequent, sustained, and increasing need for adaptation and that the body is falling behind and will soon break down under the strain. This is the stimulus we are looking for.

So now you train hard for 4 weeks and build up this deficit where you are right on the verge of overtraining (this point is called overreaching and the 4 weeks are called loading). The body knows it's screwed. What do you do? Pull the rug out and allow it to recover (deload). Generally you slash volume and frequency for a period to allow the body to recover and add some muscle in adaptation to the training stress. After a period of deloading you come back and load again - bigger and stronger (wait - remember about the BBers who took some time off and came back stronger - amazing fit is it not?).

This whole idea is called dual factor theory. Now most BBers haven't heard of it and couldn't explain it. It's largely greek to most of the people reading this. I mean, there are guys on here that know just about everything about drugs and diet but this is brand new to them. Well, it isn't brand new. It's not even remotely new or a little bit obscure. This is how 99.9% of the world's elite athletes are trained. We are talking near universal acceptance by every researcher and strength coach in the US, China, Europe, the Eastern Block, the former Soviet nations - everywhere. It's absolutely and totally prolific. On top of that there is a massive mound of scientific evidence to support it.

So how do you incorporate something like this? Logical question because in all my time at EF <I was here for a while as Madcow1 in 2000-2002ish too> I see people posting their programs and splits but there are critical factors missing. I can take the best split and exercise selection and bust my ass in the gym yet the stimulus is subpar because I'm not providing for loading/deloading. Generally this is handled by managing volume. A high volume period and then a low volume period.

There is a good program here that breaks many of the common rules in this thread (number of sets, frequency of training, all kinds of stuff). It has you squat 3x per week in addition to DLing once, rowing and benching twice. That won't work you say no one can squat 3x per week. Well it's actually not a problem and people have been running this program for 30 years and making huge gains. Several board members here are running it now or have just finished with big steroid like results but they were natural lifters (off the top of my head one is up 17lbs in week 7, another 16lbs in week 6, one younger guy was up 12 in week 6-7 but got that damn flu and has been out of commission). I didn't make this program so I can't take credit but it was orignally designed by Bill Starr, one of the greatest strength coaches ever, and later adapted by a Johnsmith182 from Meso who is actually one of the US' finest strength coaches - incidentally this job entails adding LBM to athletes in time constrained environments and this program is as good as any designed at doing it and far far better than just about anything most guys are using around here to add muscle. It's also avoided like the plague by weightclass constrained athletes who are near the top of their class as it simply causes too much weight gain and the diet restriction to prevent it is very severe. I ended up running it a few years ago and had to slash my calories twice in order to keep my gains down to the 8-10lbs range over 8 weeks (and I was not stuffing myself before). The cream of the program is that it is fantastic at adding LBM to an athlete but is also a very simple and easy to understand implementation of dual factor theory.

So anyway - that's the jist on training. None of this is revolutionary. It is in fact very standard stuff. The single factor camp is nearly empty devoid of anyone except BBers and I can certainly respect an educated choice to disagree in the face of all this but the fact that almost no one understands or has heard of what is the basic and dominant theory of training around the world doesn't exactly give me confidence that this is the situation. In fact the situation is that BBing has fallen so far behind on training knowledge that something really needs to be done.

I really hope this helps someone - I have no idea how training became all voodoo and the general population separated so far away ( likely A.Jones and Nautilus, the near extincation of Olympic Lifting, Weider's rosy image of BBing, the heavy reliance on steroids to compensate, who knows).

My wife is about to kill me for being up late and my 15 month old is crying let me provide some links for those who are interested. For those that aren't and are totally happy with what they are doing - that's cool too and all that really matters. But, if you want to learn about how training is done around the world and how the best coaches bulk and strengthen their athletes and why it is very very different from what is commonly seen in the gyms - maybe even make some better gains than what you are used to, then maybe this is useful to you:

<snipped because it's all the first page and some other stuff in here anyway>

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

TRAINING NEW LIFTERS - Glenn Pendlay and Mark Ripptoe

This is Something Glenn Pendlay wrote regarding his and Mark Ripptoe's use of a similar methodology. It specifically focuses around training progression for new lifters (so dual factor is not implicit here so much but make no mistake it is essential for experienced lifters). According to his interview here: http://www.readthecore.com/200503/reynolds-glenn-pendlay-05.htm Mark is routinely able to get 30-40lbs onto a new lifter in 6 months:

<what should....>A relatively inexperienced athlete who wants to train for general strength and size.

GLENN: He should live and die in the squat rack. Most put too much emphasis on the barbell bench press and not enough emphasis on other types of pressing, including not enough on overhead pressing. Bench pressing is great but if you do it to the exclusion of everything else you won’t get as big or strong and you can have some stability and structural problems as the years go by. Also most don’t work the back hard enough or often enough. But if you’re a beginner and want to get strong, squats are the main thing. An alternative to that would be to just go to Mark Rippetoe and get a program and do what he tells you. Its normal for him to take a high school kid and put 30-40lbs of muscle on them in a period of less than 6 months, without drugs and without ever spending more than 3 days a week in the gym. I should say it’s normal IF they listen to him, most won’t listen to anyone.

GLENN:
there are really so damn many ways to squat, even to squat with 5 sets of 5, or 6 sets of 4, or 4 sets of 6, or any similar thing, that there is not really any one program... im always hesitant to even write it out as a "program" becasue i dont really know what we will be doing in 4 weeks when we start such a thing... it kind of adapts as it goes.

but there seems to be some confusion as to the pyramid version or the non-pyramid version, so ill try to briefly explain the differences.

the EASIEST method we use for squats, and the one which rip used for beginners, is a simple pyramid program, the weights are pyramided BOTH monday and friday... and another leg exercise is used for wednesday, usually front squats for the young and athletically minded, sometimes leg press for the old and feeble.

say a person tests at 200lbs for 5 reps on their initial workout. well then monday they might do the following sets for 5 reps, 95, 125, 155, 185, 205. fairly equal jumps, ending with a 5lb personal record. if the last set is successfull, then on friday they will go for 210 on their last set, with adjustments on the other sets to keep the jumps about even as needed.

the average beginner can stay on this exact simple program for anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months, as long as they continue to improve at least 5lbs a week, most can do this for quite a while.

when they stop improving, the first thing he does is to drop a couple of the "warmup" sets down to one or two reps, to decrease fatigue and allow a few more personal records on the top set... so that 200lb top set of 5 workout at this point would at this point have the 155lb set at maybe 3 reps, and the 185lb set at one or two reps, then try for 5 at 205.

this change usually lets people get new personal records for another 2-3 weeks, sometimes more.

at some point, of course, this doesnt work anymore. so now we change the monday workout to 5 sets of 5, still with heavy front squats or for some lighter back squats on wednesday, and the same pyramid on friday, trying for one top set of 5. the 5 sets on monday with the same weiight will be some amount less than the current personal record for one set of 5.

usually with this raise in volume, the weights are set somewhat lighter than they were, and people are given a few weeks to work back to their personal records, then try to go past them, invariably they will pass them, and invariably eventually they will stall again...

at this point we usually lower the volume of training, raise the intensity, in some form we will go with lower reps, lower amounts of sets, cut out a day of squatting, something to allow a raising of the numbers... again, the numbers will raise for a while, then stall again.

a this point, another raise in volume is needed, and at this point we will go to the program that most usually associate with the "5 by 5"... squatting 5 sets of 5 with the same weight 3 times a week, lighter on wednesday and heavier on mon and fri. you are all familiar with this i think, we raise the volume for 2-4 weeks, then slowly cut the volume aned intensity of most workouts, going for a big workout every 1-2 weeks, might be a single, a single set of 5, or even one big 5 sets of 5 workout. with people cycling down for a big contest at thsi point we might go for lower reps and try for the big singles.... with someone not at a place where a big peak is needed, its just cycling down to less sets but keeping the reps at 5, and trying to make a pr on a set of 5. this can be repeated several times over and over, but at some point you have to have a period of lower intensity training for a while in between cycles.

i will add that often, for the people with higher goals who want to really train hard, i will start right in with the 15 hard sets a week version, but with weights low enough that they can endure it, and when they get in condition and get used to the volume, will then go back and start at the normal place where rip starts right from the beginning. i find that people who have been athletically active, who have been training on other programs, etc, usually do well with an initial 4-8 weeks of high volume lower intensity training to get them mentally and physically used to this sort of training, get their form changed to a good squat, etc.

this post describes as much as a year of training for most people, with some that adapt well it is stretched to two years.... two years from when they start their initial "pyramid" workouts, or their initial month or so of conditioning with 15 moderate sets a week to when they get through their first real cycle with heavy weights and 15 sets a week cycled down to a peak.



it seems simple. it is.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

GLENN: He should live and die in the squat rack. Most put too much emphasis on the barbell bench press and not enough emphasis on other types of pressing, including not enough on overhead pressing. Bench pressing is great but if you do it to the exclusion of everything else you won’t get as big or strong and you can have some stability and structural problems as the years go by. Also most don’t work the back hard enough or often enough. But if you’re a beginner and want to get strong, squats are the main thing. An alternative to that would be to just go to Mark Rippetoe and get a program and do what he tells you. Its normal for him to take a high school kid and put 30-40lbs of muscle on them in a period of less than 6 months, without drugs and without ever spending more than 3 days a week in the gym. I should say it’s normal IF they listen to him, most won’t listen to anyone.

ive been saying that on here since ive been a member but most dont seem to believe me...lol which is fine (glad im not the only one who thinks this way)

i dont want to start a controversy and when i ask this question id like for madcow to answer and i dont need all you HST lovers hoping in and ruining the thread because im not going to argue..im asking the question and whatever answer MC provides that will be the end of my commneting on the issue..

in the link it talks about recovery and that it takes a lot longer than a few days for recovery..HST is modelled on the fact that you "do" recover after i think its 48 hours?? so isnt that line of thinking false?

 

[JKurz1]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to wnt2bBeast again

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Madcow2 again.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

So my note on the top under dual factor and this being more a beginners program comes into play here. Single factor programs based solely on supercompensation work fairly decently for novices. Once you've adapted past that point you need to take into account the fatigue factor and it helps to directly manipulate it via the training load. For a beginner, as long as it's in a fair range - you are cool (you'll also notice the program here trains until someone isn't making progress and then change the protocol or step back slightly which implicitly takes this into account - sort of like the record weeks in the 5x5 most can tolerate only 10 days so 2 weeks of it generally puts them at their limit). So anyway, from what I've gathered reading over HST a bit and hearing others discuss it, is that it definitely accounts for the fatigue element and is based on dual factor. They aren't saying, you are fully recovered (you aren't) but they are saying that progress can and should be made in a non 100% recovered or fatigued state. I'm guessing as they ramp the intensity over the period that the reps are backed off to control for volume so you get a longer ramping period under which progressive overload is applied. They alter volume via reps as the weight scales where the 5x5 holds those constant and winds up with a more intense loading period. Of course you could take the 5x5 scheme and set it up similarly to where you are altering sets/reps similarly but this is more of a general program. This works for hypertrophy, strength, performance - just about anything under the sun. It doesn't specialize in any one aspect but is sort of a catch all program being really good at everything. For hypertrophy and adding LBM, I'd put it up against just about anything - look at the results some have had here and they are not anomalous. String together 6 months of this type of training and you'll have a hell of a base. Hope that helps - I"m not an HST.

EDIT: last sentance didn't get completed "I'm not an HST..authority or guru by any means but that's my understanding of the program."

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

thnks bro makes sense

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

So I take it from those 2 snippets above that a good way to set up the next year's worth of training for me would be:

9 weeks
DFHT-madcow2's

2/1/2/1/2/1/2 weeks
Bill Starr

9 weeks
DFHT-madcow2's

2/1/2/1/2/1/2
Bill Starr

5x5-bill starr, 2 weeks volume loading, 1 week deload, 2 week intensity pr, repeat?

So like 2 weeks strict 5x5, followed by 3x3 week deload, then like 1x5 pr's instead of 5x5 pr's for 2 intensity weeks and lose a squat day which cuts volume way down, then deload a week again and restart at volume for 2 cycles back to back, then go back to madcow2's routine again?

That's kinda what I'm getting from reading those posts on how to organize my training.

I can't get on meso-rx anymore for some reason, but I could also switch between the Bill Starr program on that board and the madcow2 variation right? I can't remember if the Bill Starr version had dual-factor applied to it.

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

QUESTION-Im on week 8, and I was looking over my log, and noticed something. It seems I somehow SKIPPED my "Day 1" workout for this week. Ive been out of town for 2 days, and I did my "Day 2" workout before we left (deads, military, pullups), but it was really time for my day 1 workout. My question, would it be more beneficial for me to just move on to my "Day 3" w/o, or go back and make up for the missed day? Either way its gonna throw mw off, but what do you think, Madcow? LMK, Im headin to the gym this afternoon....
Bionic

 

[blut wump]

My gut feeling on this in week 8 would be for you to do your day1 workout and then take an extra day out above your normal day2 to day3 gap before doing your day3.

Extra days of rest at that stage aren't a bad thing and might help you get though week 9 in good shape.

 

[Strengths-apprentice]

Thought I would contribute to this thread. by re-posting the program and an explanation by Glen Pendlay himself.
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=498&st=20
Hi,

actually there are two different 5x5 programs. One is the quoted from Matt Reynolds (I hope this is correct), and the other is from "Madcow".

Matts 5x5:

Monday (heavy)
Squats 5x5, same weight
Bench 5x5, same weight
Rows 5x5, same weight

Wednesday (light)
Squats 5x5, same weights, but weight is about 20-30% lighter than monday
Military Press 5x5, same weight
Deadlifts 5x5, same weight
Chins 5x5, same weight

Friday (medium)
Squats 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight
(other) Bench 5x5, same weight
(other) Rows 5x5, same weight


You start with about 80% from the 5RM on mondays. Progress over the weeks and set new records at the 3rd or 4th week.
Then you switch to the 3x3 and 2 days per week (where only monday and wednesday units are done, perhaps on monday and thursday).

Example:
1st week, 5x5, 200 lbs
2st week, 5x5, 205 lbs
3rd week, 5x5, 210 lbs
4th week, 5x5, 215 lbs

5th week, 3x3, 220 lbs
6th week, 3x3, 225 lbs
7th week, 3x3, 230 lbs
8th week, 3x3, 235 lbs

After that you can start again with the 5x5 and more weights, perhaps 210, or you can peak out with triples, doubles, singles. That is described in the link.


Madcow:

Monday (heavy)
Squats 5x5, same weight
Bench 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight
Rows 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight

Wednesday (light)
Squats 5x5, same weights, but weight is about 20-30% lighter than monday
Military Press 5x5, same weight
Deadlifts 5x5, same weight
Chins 5x5, same weight

Friday (medium)
Squats 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight
(other) Bench 5x5, same weight
(other) Rows 5x5, same weight



5x5 for 4 weeks, 1 week 3x3 with the last 5x5 weights, and then 3x3 for 4 weeks.

Example:
1st week, 5x5, 200 lbs
2st week, 5x5, 205 lbs
3rd week, 5x5, 210 lbs
4th week, 5x5, 215 lbs

5th week, 3x3, 215 lbs

6th week, 3x3, 220 lbs
7th week, 3x3, 225 lbs
8th week, 3x3, 230 lbs
9th week, 3x3, 235 lbs

And then start over, or peak out with triples, doubles, singles.


Both handle with the delayed long term effect, so that the major growth and strength increases come at the 4th till 8th week.


explanation of different 5 sets of 5 program.

there are really so damn many ways to squat, even to squat with 5 sets of 5, or 6 sets of 4, or 4 sets of 6, or any similar thing, that there is not really any one program... im always hesitant to even write it out as a "program" becasue i dont really know what we will be doing in 4 weeks when we start such a thing... it kind of adapts as it goes.

but there seems to be some confusion as to the pyramid version or the non-pyramid version, so ill try to briefly explain the differences.

the EASIEST method we use for squats, and the one which rip used for beginners, is a simple pyramid program, the weights are pyramided BOTH monday and friday... and another leg exercise is used for wednesday, usually front squats for the young and athletically minded, sometimes leg press for the old and feeble.

say a person tests at 200lbs for 5 reps on their initial workout. well then monday they might do the following sets for 5 reps, 95, 125, 155, 185, 205. fairly equal jumps, ending with a 5lb personal record. if the last set is successfull, then on friday they will go for 210 on their last set, with adjustments on the other sets to keep the jumps about even as needed.

the average beginner can stay on this exact simple program for anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months, as long as they continue to improve at least 5lbs a week, most can do this for quite a while.

when they stop improving, the first thing he does is to drop a couple of the "warmup" sets down to one or two reps, to decrease fatigue and allow a few more personal records on the top set... so that 200lb top set of 5 workout at this point would at this point have the 155lb set at maybe 3 reps, and the 185lb set at one or two reps, then try for 5 at 205.

this change usually lets people get new personal records for another 2-3 weeks, sometimes more.

at some point, of course, this doesnt work anymore. so now we change the monday workout to 5 sets of 5, still with heavy front squats or for some lighter back squats on wednesday, and the same pyramid on friday, trying for one top set of 5. the 5 sets on monday with the same weiight will be some amount less than the current personal record for one set of 5.

usually with this raise in volume, the weights are set somewhat lighter than they were, and people are given a few weeks to work back to their personal records, then try to go past them, invariably they will pass them, and invariably eventually they will stall again...

at this point we usually lower the volume of training, raise the intensity, in some form we will go with lower reps, lower amounts of sets, cut out a day of squatting, something to allow a raising of the numbers... again, the numbers will raise for a while, then stall again.

a this point, another raise in volume is needed, and at this point we will go to the program that most usually associate with the "5 by 5"... squatting 5 sets of 5 with the same weight 3 times a week, lighter on wednesday and heavier on mon and fri. you are all familiar with this i think, we raise the volume for 2-4 weeks, then slowly cut the volume aned intensity of most workouts, going for a big workout every 1-2 weeks, might be a single, a single set of 5, or even one big 5 sets of 5 workout. with people cycling down for a big contest at thsi point we might go for lower reps and try for the big singles.... with someone not at a place where a big peak is needed, its just cycling down to less sets but keeping the reps at 5, and trying to make a pr on a set of 5. this can be repeated several times over and over, but at some point you have to have a period of lower intensity training for a while in between cycles.

i will add that often, for the people with higher goals who want to really train hard, i will start right in with the 15 hard sets a week version, but with weights low enough that they can endure it, and when they get in condition and get used to the volume, will then go back and start at the normal place where rip starts right from the beginning. i find that people who have been athletically active, who have been training on other programs, etc, usually do well with an initial 4-8 weeks of high volume lower intensity training to get them mentally and physically used to this sort of training, get their form changed to a good squat, etc.

this post describes as much as a year of training for most people, with some that adapt well it is stretched to two years.... two years from when they start their initial "pyramid" workouts, or their initial month or so of conditioning with 15 moderate sets a week to when they get through their first real cycle with heavy weights and 15 sets a week cycled down to a peak.



it seems simple. it is.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

FYI - Glenn's explanation is on the previous page already. But thanks for providing that. I actually didn't realize that the program I use differed from Matt's by other than the 2 vs. 3 day. Then again, I'm not sure if that's just his illustration of the squat program layered on. Maybe I should read the first page of my own thread and see exactly what I quoted - come to think of it this might explain a bit of confusion that I've been noticing.

The only actual significant difference between Matt's and my 5x5 varriances is that I'm also using a 1x5/1x3 protocol on the Row and Bench not just the squat. With the required pyramid on those days volume isn't impacted severely and high intensity can be used during the weeks. It probably results in greater strength progression in those lifts during the peaking phase.

Also, I've tended to use a 3 day intensity/deload period whereas Matt uses the 2 day variation explained on page 1 of this thread. The 3 day is generally too much for most people and will require cutting some volume, using extra days of rest, or being more careful to accomodate this into the weight progression. Generally a combination might prove most effective as the 3 day tends to starts to wear down people again towards the end if followed to the letter which tends to be what happens.

They are both based off exactly the same base programs and it's just a bit of difference in implementation - which as Glenn noted can vary widely. That said, many have found it exceedingly frustrating that people (generally BBers - sorry guys) want to just totally bastardize and cripple the core framework of this thing in their effort to "customize" it (read: make it shitty like all the other programs). So, we tend to write it up with the explicit purpose of having it followed without much varriance so that people don't kill it. Once they've tried it, it's generally a non-issue after that point as they see the value in it not being like the more commonly found BBeresque programs.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

QUESTION-Im on week 8, and I was looking over my log, and noticed something. It seems I somehow SKIPPED my "Day 1" workout for this week. Ive been out of town for 2 days, and I did my "Day 2" workout before we left (deads, military, pullups), but it was really time for my day 1 workout. My question, would it be more beneficial for me to just move on to my "Day 3" w/o, or go back and make up for the missed day? Either way its gonna throw mw off, but what do you think, Madcow? LMK, Im headin to the gym this afternoon....
Bionic

Well - it's a record day so you don't want to just skip it. I'd do Day 1 and take a few days and then hit Day 3 take another 2 days then you will be back to Day 1 again (not set in stone - take what you feel you need). Some extra days at this point will likely do you well and set you up for week 9 nicely. Plus, if you are and have been training heavy - you won't be as burned post week 9.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

So I take it from those 2 snippets above that a good way to set up the next year's worth of training for me would be:

9 weeks
DFHT-madcow2's

2/1/2/1/2/1/2 weeks
Bill Starr

9 weeks
DFHT-madcow2's

2/1/2/1/2/1/2
Bill Starr

5x5-bill starr, 2 weeks volume loading, 1 week deload, 2 week intensity pr, repeat?

So like 2 weeks strict 5x5, followed by 3x3 week deload, then like 1x5 pr's instead of 5x5 pr's for 2 intensity weeks and lose a squat day which cuts volume way down, then deload a week again and restart at volume for 2 cycles back to back, then go back to madcow2's routine again?

That's kinda what I'm getting from reading those posts on how to organize my training.

I can't get on meso-rx anymore for some reason, but I could also switch between the Bill Starr program on that board and the madcow2 variation right? I can't remember if the Bill Starr version had dual-factor applied to it.

The Bill Starr version on meso was just a general layout. Mine should be almost exactly the same if not the same as what JS182 has applied there. The difference is not going to be so significant that it makes it a different workout at all. Shit, what you guys call "my variation" is basically just one of his anyway.

Switching between Animalmass' Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training and the 5x5 works nicely especially since it allows for more direct assistance work to address specific issues in the lifts. I'm not sure what you mean by the Bill Starr 1/2/1/2....You might benefit a lot more by doing something a bit different -- it just seems like you have a lot of the same programs listed as different programs stacked in there. I'm not really sure if I'm misinterpretting. The 5x5 makes a nice base, DFHT is a great alternate for a variety of reasons, you can always plan your own meso or microcycles to further specialize between these and address issues. Something else to consider would be your goals - what is important to you and where do you want to be 6 months to a year from now.

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Well - it's a record day so you don't want to just skip it. I'd do Day 1 and take a few days and then hit Day 3 take another 2 days then you will be back to Day 1 again (not set in stone - take what you feel you need). Some extra days at this point will likely do you well and set you up for week 9 nicely. Plus, if you are and have been training heavy - you won't be as burned post week 9.

Thanx. I would give K, but it seems Im not allowed to give you anymore 'till I spread. Thanx again bro.
Bionic

 

[Madcow2]

No prob 19/20 times I try to give K, I'm in the same boat. Very frustrating that I have to give it to random shitty posts to be able to award someone for making a truly good and insightful post. I imagine this spread issue comes from the chat board.

 

[guldukat]

Mad, Debaser, Tom,

Many thanks for the thoughts, gentlemen, and my apologies that I've not responded to this sooner.

I played with some percentages to try and map out a potential 5x5 cycle. Though I don't know my proper 5x5 max (I'd have to guess it'd be a little lower than my 8 RM), I figured that starting -25% would be perhaps a bit too conservative; OTOH, a 20% initial reduction might be biting off too much.

The only way to know for sure is to just give the thing a ride sometime, which I intend to do

One small thing: I like barbell rows, but I absolutely love doing T-Bars in a corner. The ROM is a bit short next to BB Rows--my gym doesn't have 35 lbers., and 25 lbers. aren't heavy enough--but I've always noticed decent results with the T-Bar. What do you think of using them in lieu of BB Rows?

Ooops, I lied--another small thing. I might also have a hard time choosing between chins and an exercise I call "rounded-back cable rows." While I know chins are great and I like 'em just fine, probably the best lat movements I've ever done is the aforementioned row. It's a cable row with a twist: throughout the exercise, you keep your body in a position similar to the very bottom of a SLDL. I use a V-handle attachment and pull the weight as close to my body as I can, usually just above my knees.

It sounds foo-foo, I know; and to sorta answer my own question, I'd probably favor chins in a 5x5, myself.

Still, someone please try this exercise and see what you think of it not just in a 5x5, but any training context. Don't expect to use anywhere near what you'd do in a regular crap...err, "cable" row Try it with a very light weight, say 100 lbs. or so, and knock out 15-20 smooth reps just to get the feel of the thing.

If nothing else, I'm curious to know if anyone else likes how they feel half as much as I do

 

[Madcow2]

One thing to keep in mind is that a movement can "feel" great but not produce great results. To be honest, I think cable rows feel very good and I can really feel them working the muscles but a few months down the road barbell rows leave them in the dust when it comes to hypertrophy and strength. The 5x5 really focuses around using the best exercises and I'd caution any substitutions that aren't of the very heavy free weight variety i.e. high pulls for deadlifts, cleans for rows, incline BB for standing military - this is what I have in mind. In addition a movement can feel great with very light weight but the weight applied to the system is part of the stimulus - this is why barbell curls work much better than concentration curls and also why the dead and squat are so damn effective.

As far as rows, there's a good thread here that lists the proper way to do them - acceleration throughout the rep, back as close to 90 degrees as you can get it. Towards the bottom of the first page is what I and many others consider to be the most effective row where it is performed dynamically from the floor. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

 

[guldukat]

One thing to keep in mind is that a movement can "feel" great but not produce great results. To be honest, I think cable rows feel very good and I can really feel them working the muscles but a few months down the road barbell rows leave them in the dust when it comes to hypertrophy and strength.

Agreed. Though I don't do them, I'm sure others really "feel" cable crossovers in their pecs, and that exercise yields next to nothing IMO.

I will say that I might've overstated the "it feels good!" aspect of the rounded-back row I certainly wouldn't compare it to a BB row (or even a chin, now that I'm being more honest w/ myself), but even after I got acclimated to the movement, poundage progression was surprisingly regular, and I could see a real difference in lat width as I worked further and further down the stack--more, I think, than I was seeing without it.

But that could be a false cause fallacy; I've progressed in chins and rows recently, too, so it's impossible to prove the one movement did that much *shrugs*

The 5x5 really focuses around using the best exercises and I'd caution any substitutions that aren't of the very heavy free weight variety i.e. high pulls for deadlifts, cleans for rows, incline BB for standing military - this is what I have in mind. In addition a movement can feel great with very light weight but the weight applied to the system is part of the stimulus - this is why barbell curls work much better than concentration curls and also why the dead and squat are so damn effective.

Oh, I'm with you

I actually don't train the exercise with high reps, but that's neither here nor there. In fact, I can't even remember why I brought the exercise up in this thread...I must've been more out of it yesterday than I thought. (In the future, I think I'll refrain from posting on days that I've tried to put the TV remote in my fridge. I'm scatter-brained as is...couple that with mental exhaustion, and you got a real winner! )

As far as rows, there's a good thread here that lists the proper way to do them - acceleration throughout the rep, back as close to 90 degrees as you can get it. Towards the bottom of the first page is what I and many others consider to be the most effective row where it is performed dynamically from the floor. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

With the pauses at the bottom? Yeah. I read that thread awhile back and switched over to those. My poundages took a real hit, but they're moving up a little bit each time out. Love 'em. The only thing I'm doing that you might not like is I tend to hold at the top of the movement for a moment. Should I nix that?

 

[JKurz1]

Why do so many frown on this routine if one is trying to gain mass and praise it religiously for strength? Is it the rep range?

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Why do so many frown on this routine if one is trying to gain mass and praise it religiously for strength? Is it the rep range?

Who specifically FROWNS on this for gaining mass?
Bionic

 

[blut wump]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with cable rows it's just that they're only half an exercise and what they offer pales into insignificance once you're able to get back onto free weights and do cleans and barbell rows. The cable row machine has been great for me through a lower-back rehab and I was wary of doing 'the real thing" but I'm glad I persevered.

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

LAST NIGHT'S WORKOUT: Week 8, Day 1
Squats
135 x 3, warmup
225 x 3, warmup
315 x 3, 3 sets

Bench
135 x 3, warmup
185 x 3
225 x 3
255 x 3-needed slight assistance on last rep only-record!

Row
135 x 3, warmup
185 x 3
225 x 3
275 x 3-RECORD!

 

[blut wump]

Congrats on the records, Bionic.

 

[JKurz1]

No offense, but something isnt right with your row vs. bench weight comparison......great job anyways Bionic!

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

No offense, but something isnt right with your row vs. bench weight comparison......great job anyways Bionic!

Yea, and it pisses me off!
My bench has always been weak, I dont know if its mental or what, but its getting better. Im very impressed by my weight at bent-over rows, 275 was pushing it for sure, it was a 15 or 20lb jump from last week, but i felt good last night and hit em no problem. My form probably could have been a lil better, my back came up some from parallell, but nothing too bad.
Bionic

 

[guldukat]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with cable rows it's just that they're only half an exercise and what they offer pales into insignificance once you're able to get back onto free weights and do cleans and barbell rows. The cable row machine has been great for me through a lower-back rehab and I was wary of doing 'the real thing" but I'm glad I persevered.

Absolutely.

I actually don't like regular cable rows. They never did much of anything for me.

But the variation I described...well. As I said, I don't know why I even mentioned it here; it's just not a viable substitute for the heavier compound stuff. If you happen to try a different routine and have room for such a thing, however, give them a shot. They're the best thing I've ever done with a cable station, and that includes weighted ankle kickbacks

 

[guldukat]

More on-topic:

I've read Starr's stuff for years now. He'd periodically mention assistance work, but I've not seen anyone here doing much in the way of such moves.

Speaking for myself, I would mostly be happy to stick "only" to the very basics...I'm quite sure that without any additional exercises, I'd be begging for that deloading week!

Still, I'm wondering...would it be a very big drain to integrate a calf exercise? I've never squatted three times per week, but when I've made good progress in squats and my thighs have grown decently, if I didn't train calves directly, they typically didn't budge. Maybe that'd change with the higher frequency?

I'd guess that adding calf raises wouldn't be that taxing on the system, but I dunno--could that be the straw that breaks the camel's back?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, people are advised to add in an accessory move or two, should they feel the need. I've seen people add in one bicep and one tricep exercise for 3x8 once a week, so if you want, throw in a calf exercise, and leave out one of the above ancillaries.

I'd really try the program on its own, first, just to get a nice feel for it, so you know where you stand and what to expect. Toy with it thereafter.

 

[Madcow2]

To be honest, just ignore calves for the duration. If they aren't buldging afterward I'm sure 2 weeks of training them directly post 5x5 will have them bigger and buldgier than before. Generally, calves grow right in line with the rest and are heavily genetic dependent anyway. Said another way, you have nothing to gain so don't dilute your efforts because if they hinder the squat even a tad - that will dilute your results.

 

[guldukat]

To be honest, just ignore calves for the duration. If they aren't buldging afterward I'm sure 2 weeks of training them directly post 5x5 will have them bigger and buldgier than before. Generally, calves grow right in line with the rest and are heavily genetic dependent anyway. Said another way, you have nothing to gain so don't dilute your efforts because if they hinder the squat even a tad - that will dilute your results.

I hear ya (and Tom ). If there was a chance it'd hurt the squats, I'd leave them out. I get pretty horrible DOMS with calves no matter what I do, so it'd probably be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Sensible as that is, it is kind of a bitter pill; whereas I'd actually enjoy not doing direct arm work for awhile, my calves are...odd. They were large without any training, but they lose the size I've added in years since very quickly when not trained heavy regularly.

I hate to think much of that painful calf work could be for naught, but I guess it's a small price to pay Three steps forward, a cm or two back.

 

[KhorneDeth]

To be honest, just ignore calves for the duration. If they aren't buldging afterward I'm sure 2 weeks of training them directly post 5x5 will have them bigger and buldgier than before. Generally, calves grow right in line with the rest and are heavily genetic dependent anyway. Said another way, you have nothing to gain so don't dilute your efforts because if they hinder the squat even a tad - that will dilute your results.

First -- outstanding work here, to all involved, but specifically Madcow2.

On the calves issue, I'm subscribed to the thread and this is my very first run through on the program. I'm currently on week 6 -- first week of Intensity phase, last week was Deload. I had the same reservations as guldkat in reference to calves, namely: would it be too much to put some direct work in there?

Well, I went ahead and tried it (I know, I know, don't bastardize the program -- sorry!!) by trying ONE set for 12 on the Mon and Fri workouts. This equates to only 2 direct sets for calves per week (ignoring warmups). Once I moved to the Deload/Intensity phase I've dropped the calves to one set for 8 reps to keep inline with the slash-the-volume concept.

So far, the poundages have kept coming in everything and my squat has not been hindered at all. With such low-volume work, I don't think I'm really affecting anything negatively, but I DO seem to be seeing noticeable improvements in my calves (despite being in a slight caloric deficit since I'm slow-cutting). Could this be due more to the squats? Sure, but then again, maybe not. Opinions on this?

-- KhorneDeth

 

[CrazyRussian]

Sorry if this question has alrady been asked in the previous 14 pages: is it OK to sub Dumbell bench press for barbell Bench, or is the Barbell press neccesary? Thanks

 

[KhorneDeth]

Also, I wanted to comment on something I noticed with the program that maybe others have experienced as well. I think I nailed the ramping during the Volume phase because I swear to GOD I was on the verge of completely burning out during week 4. Set PRs left and right by the end, especially squat and bench, and generally did very well overall, but I definitely prayed for the Deload week last week like a gift from the heavens.

However, I did notice in the Deload week that even though the volume was drastically reduced, the weights were still nearly as brutal as they were in Week 4! It made me nervous that even doing less than half the reps, I was STILL struggling to finish sets!

Now, come to this Week 6, first week on Intensity phase, the weights are 5-10lbs heavier across the board -- BUT THEY'RE GOING UP EASIER THAN LAST WEEK. I would assume that last week really did "deload" me, and now I'm fresher for the more increased intensity?

Anyone else experience Week 6 being FAR easier than they expected, despite the across-the-board increase in weight? Madcow, comments?

Again, truly topshelf information in this thread. Thank you sincerely.

-- KhorneDeth

 

[blut wump]

I also found week 6 to be a very comfortable week. In week 6 you probably are really still deloading and so it makes sense for it to be 'light'. I found week 7 to be an effort again.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

but I DO seem to be seeing noticeable improvements in my calves (despite being in a slight caloric deficit since I'm slow-cutting). Could this be due more to the squats? Sure, but then again, maybe not. Opinions on this?

Given the effectiveness of direct calf work - betting that they had anything to do with your calf size increase other than placebo is going to pay huge odds (big long shot).

Anyone else experience Week 6 being FAR easier than they expected, despite the across-the-board increase in weight? Madcow, comments?

If you are really pushing throughout the record weeks you will generally still feel pretty beat up during week 5 deloading, as you move into week 6 you tend to feel a lot better. This is important stuff to note in a journal. Specifically, noting that loading at that level for that duration might require a lighter 2nd week but you were rebounded nicely after that point. Likewise, if your weights start to go down again - you'd note the loading was too much to step into the 3x per week deload/intensity regimine. The 3x per week will require most people to take extra days and/or slash volume. It's not a pride thing but merely how much load you can accomodate and how long it takes you to recover from it. Two world champions with equivalent lifts can have vastly different tolerances. It doesn't mean a thing other than properly dialing in each of their programs.

Overall, sounds good like you are hitting everything right. Deep into the loading weeks is no joke and you should expect to reap some rewards in the coming weeks. Just keep in mind that extra days will likely be beneficial rather than detrimental.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Sorry if this question has alrady been asked in the previous 14 pages: is it OK to sub Dumbell bench press for barbell Bench, or is the Barbell press neccesary? Thanks

Barbell really is a much better option for stimulating growth - basically just weight applied to the system (if you "feel" a dumbell isolating a muscle or region more just take into account that feel means nothing and isolation for general purpose training isn't something you want to pursue). Flat barbell or slightly inclined barbell are both acceptable.

That said, if you have an injury or damage to your shoulder that prevents you from using the BB then dumbells are without doubt your next alternative but for the general purpose of stimulating growth and getting stronger a barbell allows for the most weight and is the best option.

 

[JKurz1]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Barbell really is a much better option for stimulating growth - basically just weight applied to the system (if you "feel" a dumbell isolating a muscle or region more just take into account that feel means nothing and isolation for general purpose training isn't something you want to pursue). Flat barbell or slightly inclined barbell are both acceptable.

That said, if you have an injury or damage to your shoulder that prevents you from using the BB then dumbells are without doubt your next alternative but for the general purpose of stimulating growth and getting stronger a barbell allows for the most weight and is the best option.

Just a small disagreement on some on the opinions you have on machines vs free weights and dbell vs barbell........not a flame, just a difference of opinion. I, for one, never used to dbell bench/incline until a couple of years ago. I found the barbell, which I used religiously, put a lot of strength and size into my entire upper body, but it wasnt till I switched over, every other routine, that my pec muscles really began to blossom. Same with my back with str8 rows vs dbell........there is no "better" when bodybuilding is concerned........I do agree, that the Smith machine should be burned, as with many other machines...........the 3 I would keep around though, are the low pully row, the lat pull, and the donkey calf machines............feel or no feel, they work wonders..........

 

[Madcow2]

No difference of opinion at all - just a difference in framework. You are talking about a matter of adding balance and tweaking muscular development for aesthetics. This program is concerned with pure development and maximizing hypertrophy. For that, it's barbells. Reading the overwhelming majority of BBing threads I get the feeling people would rather have 20 extra pounds of LBM and then deal with tweaking their physique vs. fixing a few nitpicks (fixable ones not reshaping genetics) and being left with the task of adding 20 extra pounds. This is why breaking longer periods into Meso and microcycles is a good idea - give yourself a period to work on aesthetic details or weak points in your lifts with assistance work or variations. Then go back to bulking. I'll leave minor aesthetic adjustment for others to deal with on their own.

 

[cwpick]

I am new to this site and have spent all day reviewing this thread, going over it twice. This is similar to programs I had playing football. In football we trained for strength and worried little about muscle mass. I assume because of the cardio we were performing along with a poor diet that muscle mass (as far as BB's are concerned) did not seem to be there. Strength has never been a problem for me but I have never been able to have the look of a BB. Granted I have just started a proper diet and have spent the last month trying to understand that.

I have tried the one body part a week thing and have never got the results i wanted. My strength is not where it was and my overall mass is not much better. I am hoping this program along with a proper diet gives me some much wanted results. I always saw this type of program as strength training and less of a mass builder. I guess I am one of the many who have fell into the hype of what is suppose to be the right way to lift like a BBR. I am glad to see that you are a proBBr and that this program works for you.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I am glad to see that you are a proBBr and that this program works for you.

I'm not a BBer no less a professional BBer. There are some posts of mine a few pages ago that should provide insite into what I think of the majority of programs in use by the pros in that sport. Let's just say that if you take a horrid training stimulus that wouldn't grow a high school kid and magnify it with enough anabolics then combine that with good diet, great genetics, and a fair amount of discipline - you can be a pro BBer. Of course, without the drugs it ain't pretty as most of them train no better than many of the members running around the board wondering why they can't gain weight. My goal is to help people interested in gaining muscle put it on without drugs or maximize their gains if they choose to use anyway (meaning get more LBM from a given dosage or use a lower dosage and get the same LBM increase). The structure of a good stimulus is a good stimulus regardless of how one enhances one's response and tolerance.

This program may look similar to what you saw in high school because the base structure is right out of Bill Starr's book 'Only the Strongest Shall Survive' the entire premise of which is football. Even the best program won't add muscle to you without a caloric excess (or your excess currently goes to maintaining fat) and some decent rest. In-season and pre-season this gets a bit difficult to come by. While the importance of diet is greatly exagerated in BBing (a reasonable diet is good enough to get gains from a good program and the best diet won't put a lot of weight on someone using a shitty program) it is an important factor. I just see way too many young kids counting every gram of food and then training to failure, using machines, and hitting each bodypart once per week with an array of dog shit exercises and no plan other than to go in and work hard.

The major difference in this program is the underlying dual factor methodology consisting of loading and deloading periods. This is a supperior stimulus for any experienced lifter no matter what their goal is whether it is adding LBM for BBing purposes, moving up a weight class in wrestling, or whatever. A page or so back is a quote from Glenn Pendlay regarding programs he and Mark Ripptoe use for high school lifters. They routinely get 30-40lbs of gain out of a typical HS athlete in 6 months. This one is a bit beyond the beginner lifter but the premise and structure are exactly the same (a dual factor program is more suited to an experienced lifter while a single factor or supercompensation style program work very well when run correctly by beginners).

 

[JKurz1]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I'm not a BBer no less a professional BBer. There are some posts of mine a few pages ago that should provide insite into what I think of the majority of programs in use by the pros in that sport. Let's just say that if you take a horrid training stimulus that wouldn't grow a high school kid and magnify it with enough anabolics then combine that with good diet, great genetics, and a fair amount of discipline - you can be a pro BBer. Of course, without the drugs it ain't pretty as most of them train no better than many of the members running around the board wondering why they can't gain weight. My goal is to help people interested in gaining muscle put it on without drugs or maximize their gains if they choose to use anyway (meaning get more LBM from a given dosage or use a lower dosage and get the same LBM increase). The structure of a good stimulus is a good stimulus regardless of how one enhances one's response and tolerance.

This program may look similar to what you saw in high school because the base structure is right out of Bill Starr's book 'Only the Strongest Shall Survive' the entire premise of which is football. Even the best program won't add muscle to you without a caloric excess (or your excess currently goes to maintaining fat) and some decent rest. In-season and pre-season this gets a bit difficult to come by. While the importance of diet is greatly exagerated in BBing (a reasonable diet is good enough to get gains from a good program and the best diet won't put a lot of weight on someone using a shitty program) it is an important factor. I just see way too many young kids counting every gram of food and then training to failure, using machines, and hitting each bodypart once per week with an array of dog shit exercises and no plan other than to go in and work hard.

The major difference in this program is the underlying dual factor methodology consisting of loading and deloading periods. This is a supperior stimulus for any experienced lifter no matter what their goal is whether it is adding LBM for BBing purposes, moving up a weight class in wrestling, or whatever. A page or so back is a quote from Glenn Pendlay regarding programs he and Mark Ripptoe use for high school lifters. They routinely get 30-40lbs of gain out of a typical HS athlete in 6 months. This one is a bit beyond the beginner lifter but the premise and structure are exactly the same (a dual factor program is more suited to an experienced lifter while a single factor or supercompensation style program work very well when run correctly by beginners).

point well taken.......and I can tell this is optiomal for sheer strength.....right now, my main goal is mass......as you put it, asthentically pleasing results....very knowledgeable bro and props once again......

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

Um, if your main goal is mass than this is the perfect program for you. For strength I'd say from my own experience so far it's very good too(the best I've used), but even better for mass gains.

 

[cwpick]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I'm not a BBer no less a professional BBer. There are some posts of mine a few pages ago that should provide insite into what I think of the majority of programs in use by the pros in that sport. Let's just say that if you take a horrid training stimulus that wouldn't grow a high school kid and magnify it with enough anabolics then combine that with good diet, great genetics, and a fair amount of discipline - you can be a pro BBer. Of course, without the drugs it ain't pretty as most of them train no better than many of the members running around the board wondering why they can't gain weight. My goal is to help people interested in gaining muscle put it on without drugs or maximize their gains if they choose to use anyway (meaning get more LBM from a given dosage or use a lower dosage and get the same LBM increase). The structure of a good stimulus is a good stimulus regardless of how one enhances one's response and tolerance.

This program may look similar to what you saw in high school because the base structure is right out of Bill Starr's book 'Only the Strongest Shall Survive' the entire premise of which is football. Even the best program won't add muscle to you without a caloric excess (or your excess currently goes to maintaining fat) and some decent rest. In-season and pre-season this gets a bit difficult to come by. While the importance of diet is greatly exagerated in BBing (a reasonable diet is good enough to get gains from a good program and the best diet won't put a lot of weight on someone using a shitty program) it is an important factor. I just see way too many young kids counting every gram of food and then training to failure, using machines, and hitting each bodypart once per week with an array of dog shit exercises and no plan other than to go in and work hard.

The major difference in this program is the underlying dual factor methodology consisting of loading and deloading periods. This is a supperior stimulus for any experienced lifter no matter what their goal is whether it is adding LBM for BBing purposes, moving up a weight class in wrestling, or whatever. A page or so back is a quote from Glenn Pendlay regarding programs he and Mark Ripptoe use for high school lifters. They routinely get 30-40lbs of gain out of a typical HS athlete in 6 months. This one is a bit beyond the beginner lifter but the premise and structure are exactly the same (a dual factor program is more suited to an experienced lifter while a single factor or supercompensation style program work very well when run correctly by beginners).

I am far removed from high school football and actually was referring to the college level which I am far removed from that as well. As I said earlier I am new to the site and I guess misunderstood the Pro Bodybuilder under the Avatar. Do you know any BBer that have used this program and have received gains. I am just a guy who enjoys lifting and like most a little vain. I don't want to compete but I want to look the best that I can without taking the next step into gear. Will this program give me the body of a football player or give me the body of a BBer as long as a good diet is in order. Regardless i am going to try it out and probably do it back to back and see how it goes. I have been lifting for years and probably know less than people who have trained in half the time. I trained for football and after that to stay in shape. Over the last few years have got back into it without seeing the gains i wanted. But this was through fault of my own, going through the motions, no diet, just getting by. I hope this program will get me back on track.

 

[Madcow2]

Building muscle is building muscle. The body of a BBer compared to the body of a football player is generally a matter of bodyfat levels, genetics (small joints/small waist/proportionality), and to a degree some mild focus on addressing aesthetics. I'll also throw in that a pro BBer is a human chemistry set using multiple magnitudes the amount of anabolics not to mention other related drugs.

Building muscle is building muscle. Do not look to proBBers advice on training - read back a few pages, I did a long post on this. Natural and drugged lifters alike have gotten great results with this program. I honestly do not know of anything that consistently produces more hypertrophy. So my advice would be to read everything on the first page - specifically the links on dual factor theory, and then give it a try.

 

[massm]

I've failed at this kind of progressive overload approach on many occasions, notably HST. My problem is although my calculations were always on point regarding 1RM values and calculating the weights, I found myself reaching failure way too early into the program. Perhaps this can be due to my body being primary fast-twitch fibers, and thus my repetitions were falling short during beginning weeks while others seem to have no problems.

I really like the design of this program though, I've always been an advocate of sticking to the core basics. So I started this program this week, my only change was tweaking the first 4 weeks a bit. Instead of 4 weeks, I have moved the first portion to 5 weeks, utilizing lighter weights in the first week than I would have if I crunched the numbers aiming for maximal weights at week 4. This week is pretty much to get a better handle on my body and my capabilities so I do fulfill my PRs at the proper times, just a week behind schedule. My training has been based around core movements for over 8 years, but after reading this thread I couldn't remember the last time I took on a program that didn't continually aim for failure every workout -- besides that of 10x10 GVT-type programs advocated by Poliquin which I usually ran into similar problems with overestimating my starting weight anyhow.

Anyway, this was a great thread to read through and I'm excited to work through this program. Madcow, I appreciate your contribution here more than you can imagine, you've given me insight when I egotistically thought I knew it all when it came to training theory.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I've failed at this kind of progressive overload approach on many occasions, notably HST. My problem is although my calculations were always on point regarding 1RM values and calculating the weights, I found myself reaching failure way too early into the program. Perhaps this can be due to my body being primary fast-twitch fibers, and thus my repetitions were falling short during beginning weeks while others seem to have no problems.

I really like the design of this program though, I've always been an advocate of sticking to the core basics. So I started this program this week, my only change was tweaking the first 4 weeks a bit. Instead of 4 weeks, I have moved the first portion to 5 weeks, utilizing lighter weights in the first week than I would have if I crunched the numbers aiming for maximal weights at week 4. This week is pretty much to get a better handle on my body and my capabilities so I do fulfill my PRs at the proper times, just a week behind schedule. My training has been based around core movements for over 8 years, but after reading this thread I couldn't remember the last time I took on a program that didn't continually aim for failure every workout -- besides that of 10x10 GVT-type programs advocated by Poliquin which I usually ran into similar problems with overestimating my starting weight anyhow.

Anyway, this was a great thread to read through and I'm excited to work through this program. Madcow, I appreciate your contribution here more than you can imagine, you've given me insight when I egotistically thought I knew it all when it came to training theory.

You are doing it the right way. The absolute most common error is starting too high and unfortunately as you know, this kills this type program. Beginners to this training or someone after a layoff can easily do 6 weeks in the initial phase, just start light and build incrementally. Also, have weekly targets written down but reevaluate week to week and looking forward based upon your completed workouts. This can be really beneficial to someone who isn't used to this type of training program. Of course starting too light might not be 100% optimal but guaranteeing yourself 80-85% out of the program vs. leaving a big chance at 0% and blowing it up is a good hedge to me.

Also, you are right in that some people are better at reps while others are better at max weights. Granted training style can affect this but there is a genetic component at the core.

Lots of good training info running around. Some good sources and books here:http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
I can also recommend http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/ for a good forum on training. Anyway, best of luck, thanks for the kind words, I have to run out.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

If genetics do play a part in what you're better at, higher reps or maximal attempts, how could one go about figuring out where they stand?

 

[Madcow2]

A training log is the best way. Obviously it won't give you information regarding where you fall in relation to everyone else or an average but providing you aren't overseeing a program with many trainees under you - it does everything you need it to do and provides information about the single and most important trainee you have, yourself.

As far as determining where you fall, it varies with training as well as genetics (apptitude) but figure your 1RM and then use one of the generic charts to extrapolate your various rep maxes. If you routinely can't get the reps in the upper ranges but hit right on in singles or lower ranges - that's a good indicator. Making easy work of 10 rep maxes indicates the opposite, that your 1RM is relatively low compared to your capacity for 10 reps.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Where can I find said charts?

 

[Madcow2]

Here is a sample calculator - figure out the conversion % they are using to arrive at a 1RM and this will enable you to go backward to find max reps with a given weight.
http://www.musclenet.com/1repmaxcalculator.htm

This was a short pertinent thread that came up in a google search:
http://staff.washington.edu/griffin/onerepmax.txt

 

[blut wump]

I have a table of numbers I found somewhere on the net a few months back. Using this it's fairly easy to write a program to extrapolate your expected lifts.

(
1.0, 1.047, 1.091, 1.130,
1.167, 1.202, 1.236, 1.269,
1.3, 1.330, 1.359, 1.387,
1.416, 1.445, 1.475, 1.504,
1.531, 1.560, 1.587, 1.616
);

The table has twenty entries and can be used in two ways.
1) You know your 1RM and want to know what you should be doing for, say, 5 reps. Take the fifth entry from the table and divide your 1RM by the value (1.167). For example, your 1RM is 235 then your 5RM should be 235/1.167 which is 201.37. So, 1 1RM of 235 corresponds with a 5RM of 201 (ish).

2)You know you n-rep max and want to know your 1RM. If you know, say, that your 8RM is 150 then take the eighth entry (1.269) and multiply the weight by the value. 150x1.269 is 190.35 so a 150 8RM corresponds with a 1RM of 190. Of course, once you have a 1RM you can use method 1 do calculate your n-rep max for other numbers.

Bear in mind that these can only be estimates due to what has been said in the past few posts. Until you actually do a 1RM you don't really know your 1RM but this method can be a very useful guideline to progress and to being able to compare performance at various levels of intensity. For example to know that 8 reps at 185 shows about the same strength as 5 reps at 200.

Early on while running this exercise program I decided that, for me, a 5x5 was about the same as a single set of 8 and a 3x3 was about the same as a 5-set in terms of weight I could handle. That also depended on how much rest I took between sets, of course, but it helped me to think about the levels of intensity I was using and gave me some way to compare my Day1 and Day3 workouts.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Charlie Francis on HIT

I was digging around on Charlie's site, www.charliefrancis.com, looking for a good source book to answer a PM (the book was Training for Speed - $16.99 in Ebook format on the site). I came accross this repost of an article he wrote on HIT training. At this point, some 14 odd pages, it should be pretty clear that I'm not an advocate of HIT methodology which I feel ruins athletes. While I am no where near the level of knowledge of Charlie or others I'm glad to be keeping company with the best (Louie Simmons, just about every notable researcher and strength coach besides the HIT fanatics who actually have figured a way to get paid to detrain athletes - Let's hear it for Penn State - Ra!).

Anwyay - for those interested in speed training, Charlie's site is highly recommened. He's obviously had some controversy over the whole Ben Johnson thing but let's get over the idea that elite track is 100% clean. This is a guy who was respected as the best speed coach in the world and able to train champion athletes at lower dosages than anyone else. Programs today are still based on his methods.

BTW - the Supertraining site is the late Mel Siff's and I believe it is still up and running. Siff authored the book Supertraining which is one of the finest books on training available. You can purchase it through www.elitefts.com.

(No - I don't get paid or receive anything for plugs but I am guilty of shamelessly promoting the best and trying to make it available to those interested)

Here's the article:

Source: http://www.charliefrancis.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=2

The Road To HIT is Paved with Good Intentions

(I originally wrote this article in 2002 as a response to a debate that was raging at the time between Louis Simmons from Westside and the Mat Brzyski of the HIT crowd on Supertraining but never ran it cause I couldn't locate the complete original articles . We've just had some HIT promoting posts on the site, so rather than holding back- Here Goes!)




No doubt, the concept of an injury- free training environment is appealing. The pursuit of this goal led to the development of the universal gym and every other "machine" we see today. Unfortunately, the only way to guarantee that no training injuries occur is not to train. High Intensity Training (HIT) has become football's version of the next- best thing.

In 1981, Al Vermiel, then strength and conditioning coach for the Super Bowl champion San Francisco 49ers (later with the Chicago Bulls), brought me in as a consultant. When I arrived, Al was on the phone, fending off Arthur Jones, who wanted to replace Al's Olympic weights with Nautilus equipment. After Al had dismissed Jones, I asked him why so many teams had moved away from Olympic lifting and he replied that, sadly, 20 years of machines had created a lifting "Dark Age" where there was almost no-one left who could teach the classic lifts. The success of the 49ers (and the Dallas Cowboys) was partly responsible for a renaissance of classic lifting in football, but now, 21 years later, we are descending into a new "Dark Age" led by the HIT crowd.

Mat Brzycki (MB), a strength coach at Princeton and a principle HIT proponant, wrote a rebuttal to an article written by Louis Simmons. In it, he defends the HIT system, claiming that only some linemen entering the NFL from HIT schools have vertical jumps below 19 inches and have squats below 300 pounds and further suggests that some linemen entering the NFL from non- HIT schools might also have vertical jumps below 19 inches and squats below 300 pounds.

What kind of debate is this? A 300 pound squat for a lineman? Is this with one leg? A 19 inch vertical jump? When I was at the Denver Broncos training camp a few years ago, there wasn't a single lineman below ELEVEN FEET in the standing long jump! (Needless to say, this was not a HIT program)

Have you ever noticed that training concepts like HIT always take root where comparison is difficult? A track athlete who prepared this way would have his answer in the first race. Speaking of getting your ass handed to you on a plate, too bad MB didn't test out his arguments on the Princeton debating team first! They would have jumped all over his leaps from valid observations to illogical conclusions. (Some of them can probably squat 300 pounds too).

MB rightly points out the pre-eminence of the requirements of the game (open skills) over the strength qualities that are tested (closed skills). If he understands this, why then would he train one element, which, by his own admission, is NOT the most important, to FAILURE? All training components are interrelated, thus, every other aspect of training will be compromised by HIT. This is the central flaw in the HIT philosophy.

The ability to prioritize training components, objectively time and measure the impact of the work asigned, and to adjust workloads accordingly is the cornerstone of any reasonable training program. MB neatly sidesteps HIT's fundamental failure by claiming all times and measurements are irrelevant. Hedging his bets, he says they don't matter because some of the fastest and strongest players don't make the squad. Granted, some players are more skilled than others, but shouldn't you make those who DO make the squad fitter, faster and stronger, and shouldn't you be able to PROVE you've done it? He tries to obscure the issue further by suggesting that it's impossible to compare bench presses due to differing arm lengths, then, in the next sentence, provides a formula for doing just that, down to the last inch-pound.

MB points out that some HIT schools have produced better results than some other schools with non- HIT strength programs. This is undoubtedly true, but, given HIT's fundamental limitation, this is not a vindication, but, rather, a condemnation of the other programs' inability to capitalize on HIT's weakness.

MB paraphrases Ken Mannie, the strength and conditioning coach at Michigan State, as stating; "Using potentially dangerous movements in the weight room to prepare for potentially dangerous activities is like banging your head against the wall to prepare for a concussion". This statement is true, of course, but where is the real danger? Performing cleans with proper technique, progressive loading, and supervision, or sending an athlete onto the playing field with his muscles in the severely over-trained state that HIT guarantees?

MB has difficulty understanding why linemen should have a greater problem in surviving HIT training than players in other positions. "Is it because they were not mentally and physically capable of completing such a challenging type of strength training in a highly aggressive fashion?" he asks. "Is it because of their relatively larger size? Is it because they begin each play in a 3-point stance?" He quips.

For MB's information, linemen reside on the extreme left hand side of the strength to endurance continuum, along with shot-putters and weight- lifters. Their ability to deliver incredible force makes them by far the most vulnerable to the over-training that can result from a coach's attitude, so aptly described by the statements above. I'm sure that MB would consider the HIT program that made me mad enough to write this article, a success. After all ONE player got stronger. The other 57guys that got weaker obviously had bad attitudes.

MB correctly defines muscular reserve: "If your muscle fibers become stronger, fewer are needed to sustain a sub-maximal work output (creating) a greater reserve to extend the sub-maximal effort." But then he contends that the principle is reversible. That muscular strength, gained under conditions of total fatigue (Failure) will improve explosive power. This is certainly NOT true.

Explosive power can only be optimized during the maintenance phase of an organized weight program after maximum strength is already in place. The maintenance phase extends the period over which maximum strength can be maintained while allowing the entire organism to super-compensate.

Maintenance phase lifting consists of slightly sub- maximal weights in numbers well below maximum rep capacity. It takes 10 to 12days to rebound, after a 12week maximum strength phase, followed by a 6week super-compensation "window" in which explosive power can be maximized before the gradual loss of strength outweighs the benefits of additional recovery. This concept of peaking is completely alien to HIT.

MB correctly states that the speed of movement in lifting is not that important. Increasing lifting speed increases risk and lifting rates are so slow compared to the movement rates of the sport itself, it renders any lifting speed change irrelevant. But he doesn't quit there.

He attacks the clean, stating: "There's no study that shows the power clean produces an honest- to- goodness, full fledged improvement in explosiveness in a specific "open" skill during game conditions. And if there is no scientific evidence, then there is only wild speculation, anecdotal evidence and wishful thinking."

Along this line, I might point out that there's no scientific proof that there will be a tomorrow. There is however speculation, anecdotal evidence, and, indeed, wishful thinking!

Does he seriously suggest that the clean is the only lift that does NOT improve on-field performance, whether directly or indirectly?

I have no special attachment to the clean. I have used it successfully with some athletes, but my most successful athlete, Ben Johnson, never used it in any of his programs. I don't buy the concept that the clean is specific either. Specificity comes from the sport itself. What can safely be said is that the clean represents a means to recruit a very large percentage of the body's motor units in a single lift and, for the athlete with the skill to employ it, and it can reduce the total number of lifts in training, when required. The real reason the HIT crowd hate it is because it can never be reconciled with training to failure.

MB extrapolates, suggesting that practicing skilled movements with added resistance may train the neuromuscular system to move slower. With an inappropriate load, yes, but lightly resisted sport-specific actions are used with success in many sports. Resisted sprints up to 30meters (generating no more than a 10% slowing of best time) will not alter sprint mechanics, and, when mixed with un- resisted runs, can generate significant gains in acceleration performance. Likewise, short sprints up a slight grade will help an athlete to improve his mechanics by allowing him to achieve optimum joint angles before he can generate enough acceleration to achieve them on a flat track. I have the CV to back me up on this. Sorry, I forgot. MB doesn't believe in performance measures.

MB speculates that bodybuilders, who often train using HIT principals, might be explosive, but to quote Milos Sarcev: "We are not athletes, we are athletic mannequins"!

MB also spends a lot of time trying to "ferret" out the names of the nay- sayers. In the finest tradition of the Inquisition, he wants to know who is not "Catholic" in the weight room. It's no surprise that he operates this way. Once a program like this gets hold of a team, it's hell to get rid of, since players, fearing their complaints will get back to management, keep their mouths shut. Then they're double- damned. Most players in the NFL need the work- out money they get for doing the team's off- season training program. So, even as they see their performance deteriorate, they have to put up with this dumbing- down of their training.

Why then is HIT gaining ground in the face of a flawed concept, fierce criticism from the outside, and grumbling from the inside? I'm afraid it comes down to laziness. The "culture of the cubicle" has entered the weight- room.

Annual Plan? Who needs it? As MB so aptly puts it: "Why "overcomplicate" your lifting program with periodization"?

Want to work different strength qualities? Don't worry about it! There are no different strength qualities. One set to failure covers everything.

Spending too much time supervising your athletes? Get machines in there and you can post your workouts on the bulletin board and hang out in your cubicle "surfing the net".

But HIT crowd take warning. Team owners didn't get rich by being entirely stupid, even if they did hire you. Can you expect them to accept forever that the failure to meet expectations is due to lack of talent or poor player attitude? If they should happen to stroll through the weight room and see what's going on, how long will it be before they figure out that THEY can post your workout on the bulletin board and let you spend your time in a cubicle at the unemployment office?

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

Good article.

I've been back in training for around 7 months now and during this time I have not purposely gone to failure on any of my sets. I've probably hit failure on less than ten sets this whole time.

I have never been stronger or bigger. I used to be all about HIT. I read everything. It seems to make sense, but after years of little progress in highschool I quit lifting for a couple years. Then I lifted again for 6-7 months still going to failure, but now I was only training each bodypart once every 7 days and by the end of the 7 months I was training each bodypart once every 10 days. I made good strength gains and gained some noticeable muscle size after the first 2 months, but then didn't seem to gain an ounce of muscle for the next 5 months even though my strength was going up.

Then I started learning about the nervous system and people's genetic differences. I was taking my sets to absolute momentary muscular using the 10-12 rep range. Not only that, but on the final failed rep I would press it for around 10 seconds as hard as I could and then I would lower as slowly as I could until I couldn't hold it anymore. No wonder it took so long to recover. I was literally frying my nervous system.

At this point I quit lifting for another year or so. Then I started up again and started taking only certain exercises to failure like dumbell bench, barbell bench and military press. I started experimenting with singles training and sets of 3-5 reps. My squat strength was gaining very rapidly. I put on an extra 5lbs a week on the squat for 9 months straight using a 6x1 set scheme.

For deadlifts I did the same thing and for rows I did 6-8 sets of 3 reps. Before I knew it I was doing DB rows with 90's.

It seemed like every exercise that I wasn't training to failure on was going up and up while the failure exercises were only going up at a marginal rate. Some bullshit started going on in my life and I quit lifting.

Roughly a year later I decided to start lifting again and this time not quit no matter what happens in life. I also decided not to train to failure at all and to not train above 8 reps and now have dropped it to not above 6 reps with sets of 3-5 being ideal for me. I made excellent progress starting out and now that I'm using madcow2's 5x5 variation, I feel that I have a very solid grasp as to how to train for optimal progress using dual-factor programs. Also, it coincides with my theory that I am pre-dominantly fast twitch based off how I seem to respond the best to low rep ranges and not going to failure.

HIT SUCKS. A great way to build a crappy physique. A great way to remain relatively weak. HIT BLOWS.

 

[JKurz1]

I couldnt let this thread get to the 2nd page...lol........one last ? for mcow....

I've read the entire thread, but I'm just a little unsure how this program DIFFERS from the original 5x5 where you increase the weights 5-10lbs each week, such as 225x5x5 wk 1, 230x5x5 wk 2, etc.........the method you have posted shoots from a record at wks 3-4, while the orginal would be setting recods (depending on how light you started) and wks 4-5 and then EACH WEEK after.....correct? As you would keep increasing by 5's until you plateua, than move to 5x3, etc......Plus, you are hitting the muscle groups individually on seperate days, so you dont get stagnant with rows, bench and squats 3x week........(+ my knees won't forgive me, lol).....thanks bro.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Well, the original version (Bill Starr's 5x5) works fine for a lot of people and has for a really long time. The problem you get is with experienced lifters and/or very strong lifters. Upping the weights 5-10 lbs a week just isn't enough of a jump and leaves you training with record or near-record loads and will break you down very quickly. Basically, it's just too much stress on the body for an experienced lifter to run consistently for months at a time making small incremental jumps.

For an example, go back a few pages to the cut/pasted response from Glenn Pendlay describing the squatting program Mark Ripptoe uses with his new lifters. That's a basic program where he has them making incremental jumps over longer periods. He uses this and some close variations for a year and maybe two as long as the athlete keeps progressing. This is a supercompensation program and works really well for beginners. Glenn says he gets 30-40lbs on new lifters in 6 months.

If you think such a program will work for you, go at it. Make gains for as long as you can on it. However, the day will come when programs like that won't work anymore. An experienced lifter just isn't going to respond to going in the gym and lifting at 100% all the time. Hence, dual factor theory becomes a lot more important once base adaptation has already taken place. It's just a lot harder to make consistent quality gains further out.

Here is that thread anyway: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235

Actually, now that I'm looking at your post again, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "original 5x5". I kind of assumed you were talking about Bill Starr's original workout but now that I see "Plus, you are hitting the muscle groups individually on seperate days, so you dont get stagnant with rows, bench and squats 3x week........(+ my knees won't forgive me, lol).....thanks bro." I'm a lot less sure. How the hell do you get stagnant with rows, benches, and squats? Great physiques have been built off simple basic movements. If you are talking about some generic 3 day split varriation - I'm going to be pissed off. There are no less than 3 instances in this thread where I have ripped appart the 3 day split idea most recently here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658210&postcount=234
There is no science or evidence behind the 3 day split 1x per week workout. Read the thread. This came from ignorance and totaly misapplication. Some BBers wondered why they came back stronger after a layoff and they clung to overtraining because they simply had no clue about how training actually works (I watched all this develop over a period of a few years) - obviously they still don't and the BBing world is stuck in 1x per week because some ignorant fucks threw out the idea and no one bothered to pick up a book or ask anyone who studies this stuff (I guess everyone was more concerned with procuring more drugs). When you apply this finding to basic supercompensation workouts you arrive at the conclusion that you aren't allowing for enough time to recover between sessions. This is the whole reason why it's fucking wrong. Dual factor theory has tons of empirical evidence behind it. Increased training frequency has tons of evidence behind it. It's not like I'm the only one who uses it. BBing is basically the only group of weight trainers in the world that doesn't.

So anyway, do the workout you want. Whether it's Bill Starr's, mine, someone elses or even the Suzanne Summers' Thigh-Master Blaster program. It's important to try things and let them run their course. You'll go nowhere just sitting and talking about training trying to figure out the best workout. Try them all if you want or try none. Doesn't matter but we've been going over this stuff way too long. It's time to plan out a training cycle and get in the gym - end of story.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

More Results:

Linked Thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386846

Ceasar989: Well I have to admit that I really enjoyed the program recommended by Madcow2, I wish I'd heard about it before. I should let you guys know that I did finish 1 week early because I just cant afford to bulk anymore financially and school is starting to get a little more hectic. My diet pretty much consisted of tuna, protein shakes, cottage cheese, bread, ANPB, Potatoes...and cafe. I could have eaten a lot better had I been at home, but here i didnt have the luxury of having steak and chicken breast everynight. Anyhow, I naked weight when I began was 213 lbs (in some of my earlier posts i said i was 215, but that was with all my crap on) and have arrived at a finishing weight of 234.5 lbs. I am 6'1.5. I have never experience strength or size gains like i did with this program...and I have to admit, I was kinda skeptical atfirst because it went against everything i'd learned earlier...but, before this, my bench was weak, squat was weak, dl was weak, everything was weak. Now, everything is respectable:
Bench: 180 -> 235
Squat : 245 -> 325
DL: Same as Squat
Incline: 115 ->185
Chins: I can do them with ease now, despite the fact that it was harder for me at a lesser weight.
Rows: 185-> 245

I measured myself today, and damn was i surprise with what I saw. My arms went from 16 inches to 17 (cold)...and i got the stetch marks to prove it! My traps have increased tremendously...normally its hard to notice differences with yourself, but the change is so significant that i can see it myself. I didnt measure my legs before hand, but now they are 27.5-28 inches. Chest is up from 43 inches to 45.5 inches. Forearms are up from 13 inches to 13.5.

So overall, it was pretty successful. I put in the time and consider the circumstances with me having a crappy diet most of the way through (becaus i'm in residence), I did alright...I did gain some fat, but that comes with the prize as always.

 

[cwpick]

I tried to find it somewhere in here and thought I had saw it before, but I am starting the program today and wanted to know, with out screwing up the true intentions of the program, if incline can be substituted for the flat bench, or more specifically if you can do incline on one day and flat on the other. If so would it be better to do flat bench on the 5X5 days or the 1X5 days. Although each day has a different goal do they work in such a way together that you need to keep each lift the same, either flat bench for both days or incline for both days.

 

[Madcow2]

Why not do flat on M/F and substitute incline for military 5x5 on Wednesday? Works very well. The way I wrote this one out you really should be doing the same exercise on M/F.

 

[cwpick]

Why not do flat on M/F and substitute incline for military 5x5 on Wednesday? Works very well. The way I wrote this one out you really should be doing the same exercise on M/F.

Didn't think about that. Will get enough shoulder with incline and the other lifts. Thanks.

 

[Jim Ouini]

This is precious information. Completely opened my eyes and has me scurrying about looking for more.

One question for now: can box squats be incorporated into the program, either as a direct substitute for the regular squats or possibly just on Wed since it's a lighter day?

 

[|3ossman]

Madcow2 this thread is great and i cant wait to start this program in 4 weeks. Im getting ready for a PL meet in June (for more info go to my thread in the PL page please "Competing in first meet June 26th!"). I WAS planning on moderate mass gains/high strength, but that seems like it will be next to impossible and it will be completely obvious to everyone close to me that somethings going on lol. I plan to eat about 2500-2800 cals throughout to lean out alot and try to get down to 180 from 185 so i can compete in the 181 class, cause ill probably get smoked in the 198 class. From what everyone, including yourself, is saying, i wont be able to get down to my target weight for this competition. I am running a test/tbol/var cycle along side of this program so im pretty sure ill never be able to lose weight. what should i do? change plan and get up to 197 and try to murder the weights and get as strong as possible? thanks alot.

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Last Night-Week 8, Workout (Day) #3 (This should have been last week, but I had to go out of town for 3 days and got delayed a lil bit. Actually, I think the rest did me more good than bad...)

Squats
185x3
225x3
365x3-New Record. Did 2 unassisted, but my kneewrap started to pop off on 3rd squat, good thing I had a good spotter, couldve been big trouble. Ill never get velcro knee wraps again...

Bench
135x3, warmup
240x3, 3 sets
(struggled a lil bit on last rep of last set, needed a little help from spotter)

Row
135x3 warmup
250x3, 3 sets
(great form and control on these. Was heavy, but i felt that i was in complete control of the weight at all times)

Bionic

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

This is precious information. Completely opened my eyes and has me scurrying about looking for more.

One question for now: can box squats be incorporated into the program, either as a direct substitute for the regular squats or possibly just on Wed since it's a lighter day?

Yeah, you can throw them in. You could use them for Wed (keep in mind the Wed squat session disappears in the 2nd phase), you could also use them for M/F. There are other alternatives but I'm hesitant to have someone overly adapt this program without first running it at least once. With a good base understanding of your own tolerances and how they relate to the program, it becomes a lot easier. Most people who overly change it before ever trying it blow it up.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 this thread is great and i cant wait to start this program in 4 weeks. Im getting ready for a PL meet in June (for more info go to my thread in the PL page please "Competing in first meet June 26th!"). I WAS planning on moderate mass gains/high strength, but that seems like it will be next to impossible and it will be completely obvious to everyone close to me that somethings going on lol. I plan to eat about 2500-2800 cals throughout to lean out alot and try to get down to 180 from 185 so i can compete in the 181 class, cause ill probably get smoked in the 198 class. From what everyone, including yourself, is saying, i wont be able to get down to my target weight for this competition. I am running a test/tbol/var cycle along side of this program so im pretty sure ill never be able to lose weight. what should i do? change plan and get up to 197 and try to murder the weights and get as strong as possible? thanks alot.

Some random thoughts:

I don't know your competition history or the specific contest but all held equal a mature 198 lifter will almost certainly smoke anyone new to the class that is gaining the weight in a short time frame to make the best of a poorly planned situation (not specifically you but as a rule and the only exception is a freak lifter who's 181 lifts would have been super competitive at 198). I'm guessing this also isn't a tested meet. You could always keep your weight in a reasonable range and push hard to make weight just before the contest. You'll want to know the timing of the weigh ins and lifting to rehydrate and replenish or whatever else. If your weight creeps too high this can overly drain you and hurt your lifts. Moving up a weight class should be a well planned and executed strategy, either that or don't get attached to your contest results and just use them as a formal training tool until you are ready to go at it again. I don't know what else to tell you but one of those options will probably suffice.

Also, this program is not a dedicated PL program. It's goal in the form presented is not to prepare you for single max attempts although some adaptation can be used in the intensity/peaking phase to incorporate a competitive event or max your lifts. Still, this is a general program for the most part. Maybe better for offseason and just building some extra foundation before you switch back to a dedicated program and incorporate some targeted assistance work to strengthen your weak points in your lifts.

 

[|3ossman]

I have no competitive history in PL, just trying it out for fun. Winning would just be an added bonus. The meet has both tested and nontested classes. Ill make a push to get down to 181, but if I get stuck in 198 ill deal with it. For the junior group (20-23), i have respectible lifts for both 181 and 198, but would obviously fair much better in the 181 class.

What would you recommend i do during the peaking/intensity phase to increase my max singles? PM me with your response if you dont want to post that on here.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Yeah, you can throw them in. You could use them for Wed (keep in mind the Wed squat session disappears in the 2nd phase), you could also use them for M/F. There are other alternatives but I'm hesitant to have someone overly adapt this program without first running it at least once. With a good base understanding of your own tolerances and how they relate to the program, it becomes a lot easier. Most people who overly change it before ever trying it blow it up.

I'm on week 3 and I've been doing normal squats all 3 days up to this point so I don't plan on changing. I was just curious if in the future I could use this program to help me get stronger at the bottom. I've been warming up with box squats since they were light and I wanted to try them but work sets have been normal squats.

Since I didn't figure my true 1 x 5 and 5 x 5 maxes prior to starting (I just guesstimated based on experience) I started pretty conservatively based on your statement that most people start too heavy.

Wk 3 Day 1 wasn't too bad, I was able to get through the sets given enough rest. It was tough but I never thought I was going to fail. From what I understand I'm supposed to be wiped by the end of week 4 so I'm wondering if i'm only at, say, 90-95% of my max right now. Unfortunately I don't have a spotter so going to failure is kind of tough.

I plan on going through this again so I'll be able to set my weights more appropriately.

Great program so far, some of the things I like about it:

-squatting 3 x week. It's fun.
-don't have to walk around the gym bumping into people looking for a dumbell or preacher curl or incline bench and what not. In fact on Wed I'm only at the power rack the entire workout (squat, DL, standing military, pullups)
-having to learn the correct way to BB row. Great exercise.
-having set goals each and every workout, as well as for the entire cycle. Very motivating.

 

[psychedout]

Question. I tweaked my back on the parallel rows on Monday. I don't think I will be able to deadlift tomorow which sucks.

Anyways to the issue at hand. I find doing the rows explosively really hurts my lower back, and not in a good way. I can do one-arm db rows paralell to the ground with no low back pain though. Or I could go lighter but move the weight less explosively.

What do you suggest madcow2?