Bad to go deeper than 90* on squats?

[JoNeS]

When I do squats I like to get as deep as possible most of the time being lower than 90 degrees.

My buddy told me recently, that going lower than 90 can be damagind to your tendons and knee's.

What's the verdict?

 

[Madcow2]

The verdict is that your friend is relating what he's heard and like so much of the other voodoo information circulating in BBIng is totally false.

There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332299
References are in the link above with the rest of the article.

 

[Ish]

What about below parallel compared to right at parallel? Any research on which one of those is better? I have heard right at parallel and below are no different on your knees, although I'm not sure about that.

 

[Shepherd4]

What about below parallel compared to right at parallel? Any research on which one of those is better? I have heard right at parallel and below are no different on your knees, although I'm not sure about that.

It's not just about "below parallel" versus "right at parallel." Frankly, I don't think there's much different in terms of danger/benefit to your knee. Rather, the benefits of deep squatting (and the enhanced safety to your joints) come in squatting to rock bottom. It's a function of what's stopping your descent -- the back of your calf when your hamstring hits it, or the strength of the tendons in your knee. It's the shearing forces caused by stopping at parallel (or just above, or just below) that put the knee joint at the most risk.

mpc

 

[Ish]

Cool, that's kinda what I was thinking. Thanks

It's not just about "below parallel" versus "right at parallel." Frankly, I don't think there's much different in terms of danger/benefit to your knee. Rather, the benefits of deep squatting (and the enhanced safety to your joints) come in squatting to rock bottom. It's a function of what's stopping your descent -- the back of your calf when your hamstring hits it, or the strength of the tendons in your knee. It's the shearing forces caused by stopping at parallel (or just above, or just below) that put the knee joint at the most risk.

mpc

 

[needtogetaas]

allout of pro bb have found that they can expand there chest cavidy by 3-5 inches by doing sqauts as low as they can go and doing a breathing teckneek.to lazzy to pull out the book but its in joe weiders bb basics.

 

[curgeo]

Try it yourself without weight. Stand and squat holding yourself at the 90 degree position. YOu should feel a strain on the kneecap slightly....now go all the way down...What feels better on the knee to you?

 

[HunterUk]

It's not just about "below parallel" versus "right at parallel." Frankly, I don't think there's much different in terms of danger/benefit to your knee. Rather, the benefits of deep squatting (and the enhanced safety to your joints) come in squatting to rock bottom. It's a function of what's stopping your descent -- the back of your calf when your hamstring hits it, or the strength of the tendons in your knee. It's the shearing forces caused by stopping at parallel (or just above, or just below) that put the knee joint at the most risk.

mpc

Very true nice post!

 

[H_T_]

who the fuck curls to parallel to avoid elbow damage? or any other exercise? it's all bullshit. complete the rep.

 

[rbtrout]

With my experience, stopping at parallel hurts the knees - going ass to ankles does not. Also, in just a few short weeks of going a2a, I can see the development of my quads. There's an excellent article in August,2005 Ironman Mag that covers squats/leg presses.

 

[HP_816]

doing deep squats actually help my knees. i noticed that when i stopped working out for a few months my knees were still fine but i'd notice more cracking.

sometimes i like to do my squats with a 2 second pause at the bottom, they're intense as hell and require a complete explosion.

 

[Tweakle]

going deep actually increases the weight I lift, plus it makes for a smoother descent as I'm not worrying about stopping at an arbitary point, I just go as low as my knees allow me to.

 

[go2failure]

My knees feel better now more than ever. I do ATF squats and will never go back to doing them parallel... Yeah I did much more weight parallel, but I'm seeing better quad development now than before. I'm also catching back up to where I was when doing them parallel.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Oh my god, I didn't bother reading this post originally, because I knew the answer would be covered by other experienced members, but I was bored and decided to drop in, when I read -

"allout of pro bb have found that they can expand there chest cavidy by 3-5 inches by doing sqauts as low as they can go and doing a breathing teckneek.to lazzy to pull out the book but its in joe weiders bb basics."

Why are people like this still living? My lord, I wish they would fucking exterminate themselves already. The sheer idiocy of this douche bag is asinine. How can it be, that the world is made up of people like this? If I were a god...

 

[Guinness5.0]

Oh my god, I didn't bother reading this post originally, because I knew the answer would be covered by other experienced members, but I was bored and decided to drop in, when I read -

"allout of pro bb have found that they can expand there chest cavidy by 3-5 inches by doing sqauts as low as they can go and doing a breathing teckneek.to lazzy to pull out the book but its in joe weiders bb basics."

Why are people like this still living? My lord, I wish they would fucking exterminate themselves already. The sheer idiocy of this douche bag is asinine. How can it be, that the world is made up of people like this? If I were a god...

..................

 

[Jim Ouini]

I've failed in my attempt to master the ATF Hindu squat.

I tried to back way off on the weight at the start of my 2nd 5 x 5 run through, but I think pride/ego got the best of me and I upped the weights too fast (especially since I kind of wanted to build off my weights from my 1st run through).

Anyway, I guess I'm in the minority here when I say I find ATF a lot harder to do than just to parallel. And I don't know if it's a coincidence but my knee started giving me some pain.

I've tried different stances, toe angles, and so forth to no avail. Maybe I just need to really really back off on the weight. And my ankle/calf flexibility needs to be improved (the fact I wear flat soled shoes probably doesn't help either).

I may even have to *gulp* use some 10lb plates under the heels.

 

[blut wump]

Everything I've read contra-indicates plates under the heels. It's hard for me to comment as I've always had good ankle flexibility.

I'd suggest biting the bullet and dropping as much weight as needed to try it, at least for a while. It's a crushing blow to the ego to be benching way more than you can squat but in six months time you'll hardly even remember it. If it helps, take a good laugh at yourself first then you can ignore any thoughts of others laughing.

One of the things I realy like about ATF and box squats is that you're no longer left wondering whether you went low enough or even whether you went as low as last time. It's a simple make or fail with excellent carry-over to a parallel squat. If it's good enough for Joe Weider, how can you resist?

 

[Jim Ouini]

Everything I've read contra-indicates plates under the heels. It's hard for me to comment as I've always had good ankle flexibility.?

Well I was gonna try the 10lb, 5lb, 2.5lb progression until eventually I could get down. I've had some bad right ankle sprains from my sports competition days (it's permanantly swollen) that *may* be causing some compromised movement. /excuse

I'd suggest biting the bullet and dropping as much weight as needed to try it, at least for a while. It's a crushing blow to the ego to be benching way more than you can squat but in six months time you'll hardly even remember it. If it helps, take a good laugh at yourself first then you can ignore any thoughts of others laughing.

I was afraid that was gonna be the answer ...in the back of my mind I knew it was gonna come to that. I guess I was afraid of stalling some of my overall progress by going from a 365 parallel squat on my first 5 x 5 run through to a 135 ATF squat on my 2nd...

One of the things I realy like about ATF and box squats is that you're no longer left wondering whether you went low enough or even whether you went as low as last time. It's a simple make or fail with excellent carry-over to a parallel squat. If it's good enough for Joe Weider, how can you resist?

Weider Principle #3054?

 

[blut wump]

I was afraid that was gonna be the answer ...in the back of my mind I knew it was gonna come to that. I guess I was afraid of stalling some of my overall progress by going from a 365 parallel squat on my first 5 x 5 run through to a 135 ATF squat on my 2nd...

That was probably one of the reasons I took up box squats, besides wanting to try them for an age. It left me with something near to parallel that I could get ego-saving numbers on. I've dropped those too for the next couple of weeks. I try to remember that it's the progress week to week which indicates improvement and development not the actual numbers themselves. (if that makes any sense)

In another two or three weeks I might try a half-squat and see how it has all hung together.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Speaking of box squats, I may have started on too low a box. My stance wasn't ultra-wide, either. Just wide.

I could *feel* my knees adducting on the ascent, even though it didn't look like it according to my spotter since I asked him specifically to look for it, and I wonder if ironcially it caused me some knee pain.

In effect compensating somehow for weak glutes/hams to get the weight up (again, probably too ambitious with the weights).

I thought I was doing all the right things - sitting back, relaxing hip flexors and so forth.

I really need to learn patience, sometimes I put the cart before the horse so to speak.

 

[Tweakle]

Did I just see 'weider' referenced? Surely no-one would be dumb enough to post about that on this board.. oh wait, yes, yes they would.

of course pros don't do breathing squats, quit being so fucking silly.. they use the leg press and hack squats. breathing squats are some old school 1950's stuff, the last 'pro' to do them was probably steve reeves

 

[anthrax]

Ass to the grass
and preferably bare feet or with PL shoes

 

[superchicken1]

Read the article in Pure Power Magazine volume 2 no 6. Available on line as a PDF file at purePowerMag.com.

and while much debated... squatting past parallel is better for your knees that stopping at parallel.

SuperChicken1

 

[hardrock]

My old boss studied Kinesiology(sp). He always told me going below 90 degrees is biomechanically not good for the knees.

Makes sense to me.

 

[anthrax]

My old boss studied Kinesiology(sp). He always told me going below 90 degrees is biomechanically not good for the knees.

Makes sense to me.

It's time to change kinesiologist

A lot of people (Africa/Asia) like Afghans seat naturally with their hams on their calves

 

[Shepherd4]

I've failed in my attempt to master the ATF Hindu squat.

I tried to back way off on the weight at the start of my 2nd 5 x 5 run through, but I think pride/ego got the best of me and I upped the weights too fast (especially since I kind of wanted to build off my weights from my 1st run through).

Are we talking about the same thing? Hindu squats have been popularized by Matt Furey and the like in recent years, and are a WEIGHTLESS calisthenic exercise (that is, just bodyweight) in which you rock forward onto your toes as you squat down. ATF squatting (and for that matter 5x5) is premised on a standard back squat with weight, during which your heels NEVER come off the ground. Frankly, I think the hindu squat creates significantly greater shearing forces on the knees than a regular squat -- with weight, you could really mess yourself up.

Root your heels to the center of the earth. If you have to elevate them on 10lb plates, that's actually fine -- it'll raise your heels about as much as a good pair of O-lifting shoes. Practice finding depth by squatting (weightless) in a squat rack and holding on to the sides of the rack for support. Wallow in that bottom position for a while. Squatting "on your haunches" is a perfectly natural position -- watching my 17 month old baby girl for 5 minutes tells me that. You just have to get used to it again.

mpc

__________________
"Think of Tiger Woods out there hitting a bucket of balls. He's not swinging the 5-iron to get stronger -- he's swinging it to hone the groove. Hone the groove."

 

[blut wump]

Hindu squats are what many societies do until they invent chairs and the money to buy them and many nomads do regardless. Pretty much as you describe but without any rocking; just ATF, often with the arms draped over the knees.

As part of my squats warmups I like to hold the position at the bottom with just the bar and a plate at each end to stretch and to feel whether my back or knees are planning to give me any grief. It's quite comfy.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Are we talking about the same thing? Hindu squats have been popularized by Matt Furey and the like in recent years, and are a WEIGHTLESS calisthenic exercise (that is, just bodyweight) in which you rock forward onto your toes as you squat down. ATF squatting (and for that matter 5x5) is premised on a standard back squat with weight, during which your heels NEVER come off the ground. Frankly, I think the hindu squat creates significantly greater shearing forces on the knees than a regular squat -- with weight, you could really mess yourself up.

Root your heels to the center of the earth. If you have to elevate them on 10lb plates, that's actually fine -- it'll raise your heels about as much as a good pair of O-lifting shoes. Practice finding depth by squatting (weightless) in a squat rack and holding on to the sides of the rack for support. Wallow in that bottom position for a while. Squatting "on your haunches" is a perfectly natural position -- watching my 17 month old baby girl for 5 minutes tells me that. You just have to get used to it again.

mpc

My mistake - I thought Hindu just referred to the position of your hams being completely slapped on your calves.

Thanks for the advice, I currently do that 'sit on your haunches and wallow' thing in the squat rack - of course as the weight gets heavier somehow my depth starts creeping up

To paraphrase an old saying 'a 100 dollar warmup and a 10 cent squat'

Hindu squats are what many societies do until they invent chairs and the money to buy them and many nomads do regardless. Pretty much as you describe but without any rocking; just ATF, often with the arms draped over the knees.

Yeah I also read that the inventor of the toilet really messed up our GI by having the seat so high, or something like that.

 

[blut wump]

My mistake - I thought Hindu just referred to the position of your hams being completely slapped on your calves.

Thanks for the advice, I currently do that 'sit on your haunches and wallow' thing in the squat rack - of course as the weight gets heavier somehow my depth starts creeping up



Yeah I also read that the inventor of the toilet really messed up our GI by having the seat so high, or something like that.

Isn't that just the shits?

 

[Shepherd4]

Thanks for the advice, I currently do that 'sit on your haunches and wallow' thing in the squat rack - of course as the weight gets heavier somehow my depth starts creeping up

At lighter (read: warmup weights) make sure you are "unlocking" your hips at the bottom of the squat. Essentially, it's the concept of relaxing your hips to allow yourself to sink into the bottom position. You might benefit from doing all of your warmup sets as pause squats to increase your comfort level in the bottom position.

mpc

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

It's not just about "below parallel" versus "right at parallel." Frankly, I don't think there's much different in terms of danger/benefit to your knee.

mpc

actually there is. "At parallel (where the thigh is parallel to the floor, higher than the depth of a full squat by about 30 degrees), the compressive forces on the patella (kneecap) are actually at their highest. Decelerating, stopping, and reversing direction at this angle can inspire significant knee pain in even healthy people, whereas full squats present no problem." - Huberti & Hayes, Journal of Bone Joint Surgery, 1984: 715-724

 

[Shepherd4]

actually there is. "At parallel (where the thigh is parallel to the floor, higher than the depth of a full squat by about 30 degrees), the compressive forces on the patella (kneecap) are actually at their highest. Decelerating, stopping, and reversing direction at this angle can inspire significant knee pain in even healthy people, whereas full squats present no problem." - Huberti & Hayes, Journal of Bone Joint Surgery, 1984: 715-724

I think you missed my point (probably bad wording on my part). The question to which I was responding earlier asked about the difference between going "below parallel" versus stopping right at parallel -- not rock bottom vs. parallel. My point in responding was that the inch or two difference between parallel and just below parallel isn't going to make much difference. They're both hard on the knees. Far and away the better method (as your cite confirms) is to toss out any concept, notion or idea of parallel or anything related thereto and squat rock bottom.