Anybody here 200lbs or under?

[justyxxxx]

False, he's not ready, period.



Wrong! you CAN hurt yourself by abusing steroids, so don't go on here recommending steroids to a 160lbs. kid.

You can hurt yourself by abusing most anything - religion, marijuana, alcohol, and even water . . .

Arnold was a "kid" when he started taking steroids (if his own approximate time statements and those of his training buddy can be believed) and I seriously doubt that he'd reached a "genetic limit" before he took the plunge. And no, I'm not gonna argue with you as to whether he'd actually reached a limit - neither of us would know for sure. I think we put our own limits on ourselves most of the time and sometimes that's not a bad thing.

 

[Mr.X]

You can hurt yourself by abusing most anything - religion, marijuana, alcohol, and even water . . ..

While I cannot disagree that abuse of anything is bad, you are going off-topic here. This case is about possible steroid ABUSE by a 160lbs. guy that has a long way to go before genetic limits are reached.

Arnold was a "kid" when he started taking steroids (if his own approximate time statements and those of his training buddy can be believed) and I seriously doubt that he'd reached a "genetic limit" before he took the plunge.

That was about 40 years ago. Arnold was born in 1947, barely around the time of any steroid knowledge much less selection. Ignorance of others is not an excuse for personal abuse.

 

[justyxxxx]

While I cannot disagree that abuse of anything is bad, you are going off-topic here. This case is about possible steroid ABUSE by a 160lbs. guy that has a long way to go before genetic limits are reached.




That was about 40 years ago. Arnold was born in 1947, barely around the time of any steroid knowledge much less selection. Ignorance of others is not an excuse for personal abuse.

I wouldn't consider my statement off-topic - it was related.

Arnold seems to be healthy - correct? He did have that heart issue - but my understanding is that was a genetic issue.

Question - why do we want others to believe that steroids are perfectly fine (ie the government) and yet if we really believed this (even steroids used in moderation) . . . why are we trying so hard to convince this guy that he shouldn't use them?

Do you believe that the conservative use of steroids (doctor visits, etc) is still unsafe? I see why you think the natural route is ultimately the safest - but what is so ultimately wrong, in your opinion, for this guy to try steroids if he does what would be considered a safe cycle? Is it because he MAY have to continue taking them to see further gains?

 

[Anthony Roberts]

While I cannot disagree that abuse of anything is bad, you are going off-topic here. This case is about possible steroid ABUSE by a 160lbs. guy that has a long way to go before genetic limits are reached.
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Exactly...it's a definitional truth...if something is being abused then it's bad.

 

[Mr.X]

Arnold seems to be healthy - correct? He did have that heart issue - but my understanding is that was a genetic issue.

There was no proof to either account, steroids or genetic, so I cannot say. However, using 1 person, Arnold, as an example is not only bias but also ignorant. There are 1000s more who have hurt themselves by being plain stupid and misusing/abusing AS - think of people who develop gyno and need $6000 surgery because they didn't add a $60 bottle of arimidex or nolvadex.

I say this not to make steroids seem like they are dangerous - not at all. This is to keep away the 150lbs. newbie that thinks steroids are a replacement for a bulking diet.

Question - why do we want others to believe that steroids are perfectly fine (ie the government) and yet if we really believed this (even steroids used in moderation) . . . why are we trying so hard to convince this guy that he shouldn't use them?

Steroids are perfectly fine for some, but not for everyone. A 110lbs. kid doesn't need steroids. The government misunderstands steroids based on pure ignorance and abusive media.

Do you believe that the conservative use of steroids (doctor visits, etc) is still unsafe?

Where did I say that? you're putting words in my mouth. I'm telling you that advocating steroids for a guy that needs a bulking diet is plain stupid, simple as that.

I see why you think the natural route is ultimately the safest - but what is so ultimately wrong, in your opinion, for this guy to try steroids if he does what would be considered a safe cycle?

I've answered this about 10 times. You're taking me into circular logic and wasting my time. He plain and simple doesn't need steroids. End of story.

Is it because he MAY have to continue taking them to see further gains?

The best "may" I can tell you, is that he "may" need to go to the diet forum and research a bulking diet, simple as that.

Increase his calories to weight x 20-25 with 50% protein/ 30% carbs/ 20% fat and you'll see him grow like mad.

The best anabolic out there is FOOD.

 

[justyxxxx]

There was no proof to either account, steroids or genetic, so I cannot say. However, using 1 person, Arnold, as an example is not only bias but also ignorant. There are 1000s more who have hurt themselves by being plain stupid and misusing/abusing AS - think of people who develop gyno and need $6000 surgery because they didn't add a $60 bottle of arimidex or nolvadex.

I say this not to make steroids seem like they are dangerous - not at all. This is to keep away the 150lbs. newbie that thinks steroids are a replacement for a bulking diet.



Steroids are perfectly fine for some, but not for everyone. A 110lbs. kid doesn't need steroids. The government misunderstands steroids based on pure ignorance and abusive media.



Where did I say that? you're putting words in my mouth. I'm telling you that advocating steroids for a guy that needs a bulking diet is plain stupid, simple as that.



I've answered this about 10 times. You're taking me into circular logic and wasting my time. He plain and simple doesn't need steroids. End of story.



The best "may" I can tell you, is that he "may" need to go to the diet forum and research a bulking diet, simple as that.

Increase his calories to weight x 20-25 with 50% protein/ 30% carbs/ 20% fat and you'll see him grow like mad.

The best anabolic out there is FOOD.

Actually - you're taking me on a circular route. I've already stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN - from the beginning - that if increasing calories hasn't worked then he should read all he can before taking steroids. I've stated this over and over again. Arnold is one example, yes - but he's a popular example of a healthy individual that took steroids many years ago and is still kicking. There are probably hundreds of thousands that have taken steroids, if not millions - and there are no real statistics to point out how they're doing today.

You are the one already stating that by taking steroids at his weight - he'd be abusing them. You consistently keep say ABUSING STEROIDS - over and over again. If he's not gaining any weight by other means, then a safe cyle is not ABUSING STEROIDS . . . your statements make it sound like the end of the world is near should he decide to take them. And if he does -then what - is he still abusing them? Is he destined for hell or what? What will become of him - will he go on to do meth or coke? Possibly become homeless? Come on - if you think they're safe - then even if he ultimately chooses to take them - then by that virtue he is not gonna be some drug ABUSER.

There are cycles that generally won't cause gyno - as you know - and he can read all about them by doing just that- as I've already stated in a CIRCULAR way.

 

[Mr.X]

Actually - you're taking me on a circular route. I've already stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN - from the beginning - that if increasing calories hasn't worked then he should read all he can before taking steroids.
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Wrong again. I've worked with 30 year olds who were 145lbs., couldn't gain an oz. their whole life. After I put them on a bulking diet they started gaining. The laws of physics apply for everyone, energy intake > energy output = gain, that's a caloric surplus for you. If you take in more energy then you put out, you will gain mass. No matter how you slice it, no matter what metabolic rate you have (minus extreme rare cases), you CAN gain mass with a bulking diet.

Is that simple for you to understand or are you going to keep arguing an empty point?

I've stated this over and over again. Arnold is one example, yes - but he's a popular example of a healthy individual that took steroids many years ago and is still kicking. There are probably hundreds of thousands that have taken steroids, if not millions - and there are no real statistics to point out how they're doing today. .

So, without real statistics, your only figure for steroid use is arnold, that's very diverse and really proves your point. To be exact, I see no point in your argument.

You are the one already stating that by taking steroids at his weight - he'd be abusing them.

You consistently keep say ABUSING STEROIDS - over and over again. If he's not gaining any weight by other means, then a safe cyle is not ABUSING STEROIDS . . . your statements make it sound like the end of the world is near should he decide to take them. And if he does -then what - is he still abusing them? Is he destined for hell or what? What will become of him - will he go on to do meth or coke? Possibly become homeless? Come on - if you think they're safe - then even if he ultimately chooses to take them - then by that virtue he is not gonna be some drug ABUSER.

There are cycles that generally won't cause gyno - as you know - and he can read all about them by doing just that- as I've already stated in a CIRCULAR way

I'm not sure if you have a reading problem, or you just don't understand what I'm telling you.

He does NOT need steroids, period.

It does seem like you yourself probably used/misued steroids when you didn't need to and now feel inclined to defend your personal position on the topic, I can understand that. However, that's your subjective view and it's bias.

Since you are ignorant on the topic, it's clear you will not comprehend the problems with recommending a 160lbs. guy steroids instead of food.

I wonder what you claim is here, so you are saying that if I'm 120lbs., 5-10 and I feel like I reached my genetic potential and "cannot" gain any mass with food, I should use steroids? In another case, maybe I'm having problems with losing bodyfat, I'm 25% bodyfat; my solutions is to use steroids instead of diet, is that ok? With your false logic, it seems the right thing to do, as long as I "justify" it to myself.

How about a highschool wrestler reading this, some 17 year old that thinks steroids are the answer to all his problems. After reading your false information, he would think that it's "ok" to just use steroids because you think you need them. That's exact the reason the government is going after steroids. People like you provide wrong information to users who, in turn, end up on "MTV, I am a 160lbs. steroid user."

You can't seriously sit there and tell me with a straight face that a 160lbs. guy really needs steroids because he "feels" like it. He needs to EAT FOOD, not take steroids.

 

[justyxxxx]

Wrong again. I've worked with 30 year olds who were 145lbs., couldn't gain an oz. their whole life. After I put them on a bulking diet they started gaining. The laws of physics apply for everyone, energy intake > energy output = gain, that's a caloric surplus for you. If you take in more energy then you put out, you will gain mass. No matter how you slice it, no matter what metabolic rate you have (minus extreme rare cases), you CAN gain mass with a bulking diet.

Is that simple for you to understand or are you going to keep arguing an empty point?



So, without real statistics, your only figure for steroid use is arnold, that's very diverse and really proves your point. To be exact, I see no point in your argument.




I'm not sure if you have a reading problem, or you just don't understand what I'm telling you.

He does NOT need steroids, period.

It does seem like you yourself probably used/misued steroids when you didn't need to and now feel inclined to defend your personal position on the topic, I can understand that. However, that's your subjective view and it's bias.

Since you are ignorant on the topic, it's clear you will not comprehend the problems with recommending a 160lbs. guy steroids instead of food.

I wonder what you claim is here, so you are saying that if I'm 120lbs., 5-10 and I feel like I reached my genetic potential and "cannot" gain any mass with food, I should use steroids? In another case, maybe I'm having problems with losing bodyfat, I'm 25% bodyfat; my solutions is to use steroids instead of diet, is that ok? With your false logic, it seems the right thing to do, as long as I "justify" it to myself.

How about a highschool wrestler reading this, some 17 year old that thinks steroids are the answer to all his problems. After reading your false information, he would think that it's "ok" to just use steroids because you think you need them. That's exact the reason the government is going after steroids. People like you provide wrong information to users who, in turn, end up on "MTV, I am a 160lbs. steroid user."

You can't seriously sit there and tell me with a straight face that a 160lbs. guy really needs steroids because he "feels" like it. He needs to EAT FOOD, not take steroids.

I've been on bulking diets too - and I thought that I couldn't gain weight - I did and they do work. You're trying to argue a point that I agree with - if a bulking diet is giving you the results you want - then why bother with anything else? And if you'll re-read my first post, you'll see that I clearly stated that some people will do things NO MATTER WHAT and I then said to read as much as you can. But somehow you decided to lead us to these waters.

And regarding my statistics, you're right - I didn't provide any - and niether did you. But as to the major consequences that are directly linked to steroid use, you'd have a hard time finding any of those - and you probably won't. So, your argument really doesn't hold much water either. There are plenty of side effects as I've already mentioned (you know, the whole circular thing we've got going on, but I won't mention that again)

And I think I do have a reading problem because I keep reading your posts. You can not NEED something, but still do it anyway. You may not NEED a new car, but you get one anyway because it looks better than your old one. You may not NEED a facelift, but you get one. You may not NEED a breast enhancement, but you do it anyway. And if all of this is supposedly safe if you follow the proper procedures, then there really isn't anything wrong with the NEED. Do you comprehend this? Both of us can throw personal insults, but I think I've avoided that thus far (give the man a ribbon). But some of us will do things NO MATTER WHAT as I already mentioned in my first post in this topic, and my response was for those people. But I do not see anything wrong with trying steroids if other alternatives aren't giving you the results that you want . . .

And regarding your extremes, we can all reach for the extreme examples - but I try to avoid those. 160lbs doesn't sound like an extreme example to me, whereas in my opinion, 17 years old is an extreme example and 120 lbs might be - depending upon conditions that YOU may or may not be aware of.

Of course, we should all wait unti we're 200 lbs before considering alternatives . . . so saith Mr. X and then it was.

 

[Mr.X]

And if you'll re-read my first post, you'll see that I clearly stated that some people will do things NO MATTER WHAT and I then said to read as much as you can. But somehow you decided to lead us to these waters..

The best way to go about it is to talk them out of using steroids when they don't need them. Making an assumption they'll do it no matter what is like taking a negative stand before knowing the facts.

And I think I do have a reading problem because I keep reading your posts. You can not NEED something, but still do it anyway. You may not NEED a new car, but you get one anyway because it looks better than your old one. You may not NEED a facelift, but you get one. You may not NEED a breast enhancement, but you do it anyway. .

You're comparing steroids to new cars, there is no comparison. You're just making excuses that allow you to justify telling people to misuse steroids.

And if all of this is supposedly safe if you follow the proper procedures, then there really isn't anything wrong with the NEED.
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I've never considered plastic surgery "safe." However, that's for another post, you're getting off topic.

But some of us will do things NO MATTER WHAT as I already mentioned in my first post in this topic, and my response was for those people.
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Helping people use steroids when they don't need them is completely wrong. If you wanted to "help" them, you'd try to talk them out of using steroids, not help them justify a wrong.

But I do not see anything wrong with trying steroids if other alternatives aren't giving you the results that you want . . . ..

I can't help but to call you ignorant. At first you say, steroids can be misused and abused by people that will do them "NO MATTER WHAT", now you say they are a solution for a bad diet. At 160lbs., this guy hasn't seen enough alternatives.

His alternative is to get his diet together and start bulking not use steroids.

And regarding your extremes, we can all reach for the extreme examples - but I try to avoid those. 160lbs doesn't sound like an extreme example to me, whereas in my opinion, 17 years old is an extreme example and 120 lbs might be - depending upon conditions that YOU may or may not be aware of. ..

The 17 year old example is exactly what happens. Young kids come on these forums and listen to people like you tell them to "just use steroids, since you're going to do it NO MATTER WHAT", then we get the bad media PR and government attention.

Of course, we should all wait unti we're 200 lbs before considering alternatives . . . so saith Mr. X and then it was.

You can disagree all you want, but suggesting steroid use as an "alternative" to a bulking diet is just plain stupid. If you give these people no alternatives but to "JUST DO IT SINCE YOU WILL DO IT NO MATTER WHAT", what do you think happens? they listen to your false logic and start steroids.

I wont stand by a let an ignorant member spead false information on steroid use. Steroids are for people who have reached their genetic limits naturally and now want an aid.

Steroids are not a joke or a supplement, they CAN hurt the user if abused. I have seen peple suffer liver problems from going on long anadrol/dbol cycles - steroids are no joke.

If you are a newbie reading this, consider your diet, training, cardio, supplements and rest first before you think about steroids. Remember, the strongest anabolic you can use is FOOD.

 

[justyxxxx]

The best way to go about it is to talk them out of using steroids when they don't need them. Making an assumption they'll do it no matter what is like taking a negative stand before knowing the facts.





You're comparing steroids to new cars, there is no comparison. You're just making excuses that allow you to justify telling people to misuse steroids.



I've never considered plastic surgery "safe." However, that's for another post, you're getting off topic.



Helping people use steroids when they don't need them is completely wrong. If you wanted to "help" them, you'd try to talk them out of using steroids, not help them justify a wrong.



I can't help but to call you ignorant. At first you say, steroids can be misused and abused by people that will do them "NO MATTER WHAT", now you say they are a solution for a bad diet. At 160lbs., this guy hasn't seen enough alternatives.

His alternative is to get his diet together and start bulking not use steroids.



The 17 year old example is exactly what happens. Young kids come on these forums and listen to people like you tell them to "just use steroids, since you're going to do it NO MATTER WHAT", then we get the bad media PR and government attention.




You can disagree all you want, but suggesting steroid use as an "alternative" to a bulking diet is just plain stupid. If you give these people no alternatives but to "JUST DO IT SINCE YOU WILL DO IT NO MATTER WHAT", what do you think happens? they listen to your false logic and start steroids.

I wont stand by a let an ignorant member spead false information on steroid use. Steroids are for people who have reached their genetic limits naturally and now want an aid.

Steroids are not a joke or a supplement, they CAN hurt the user if abused. I have seen peple suffer liver problems from going on long anadrol/dbol cycles - steroids are no joke.

If you are a newbie reading this, consider your diet, training, cardio, supplements and rest first before you think about steroids. Remember, the strongest anabolic you can use is FOOD.

Oh god - you're wearing me out. Maybe you have time to post here all day long, but this will be my last one for the night.

Have you ever dreamed of doing something and it was so intense that you just had to do it? You studied, researched, and did all that you could because it was the DREAM and you HAD TO DO IT. You waited years and years . . . heard all these great things and finally - YOU LIVE THE DREAM. You DO IT. It then goes one of two ways - it works great for you or it doesn't. I've seen'em both. And I'm not saying that this is his dream . .

You're acting like my statement regarding HAVE TO DO THEM NO MATTER WHAT is a bad thing. It's not. I've had to do things - that I considered to be good AND sometimes bad . . . you're taking the stance that what I'm saying is the negative route. It's not. Some things are learning experiences - for the good or for the bad. Thru research, as I've already suggested, you will sometimes take the initial steps and decide not to do what you thought was the oasis in the desert. But, sometimes you will - and it is the thing you desired and the end result is what you wanted. Your take on it - which is Nancy Reagan's Just Say No stance - it's your take. My take is Well, Maybe - but - research it first and do it only after you've researched.

Everything you've mentioned - he will read about . . . liver problems, etc, etc.

And spreading false informatoin? ha - you're hilarious. You think that my reasoning is false! Some people WILL do things no matter what. I said READ READ READ READ - do you comprehend this? When you tell someone - NO - some people take that as a YES.

While you want to suggest that I'm the ignorant one, you're totally disregarding and ignoring the things that I've said. I agree - diet first - exercise first - do those first and I agree - if those don't work - then you know what - try them. Get it over with - you may never do them again. I've done coke once (ten years ago and liked it) and I've done marijuana a few times (it was ok), but I'm not ABUSING those - as you've led people to believe they'll just start on some massive steroid downward spiral. People try things all the time - you can be Daddy X and say No - and you can consider me Abusive JustyXXXX and say - yeah, you know what - read up and if you're gonna do them - go ahead but look at the side effects as well. That doesn't lead to abuse. Just as drinking alcohol doesn't lead to immediate liver damage (and alcohol was illegal once too).

So - it's his decision - and you can Just Say No all day long . . . and that won't change anything if his mind is set on them. And even if it is, in my opinion - there's nothing I've seen wrong with that. Because my mind was set on them at one point as well - and that's another story . . . I'll reserve that for my cars and face lifts future thread.