A man and his boobies

[Joe23445]

I'd say that my gyno saga began about 12 years ago. It started with the tail end of a cycle of androstenedione. This is back in the day when PA was still selling the powder from a van in his backyard.

Anyway, after that a very long and drawn out saga began. Many blood tests and lots of different things attempted to put an end to the problem. In the here and now I've been off any kind of AAS for at least 9 years and maybe longer (yes most of this issue has been ongoing without any AAS in the picture.)

At times my gyno has almost completely evaporated on its own. Over the years there have been inexplicable flare ups and then flare downs. On one bad flare up nolvadex worked and then on the next flareup it did jack shit. AIs have been completely useless and my bloodwork hasn't shown anything that is out of range (T/E OK, progesterone, prolactin, HGH, thyroid, etc, all normal).

I've had three endos throw up their hands and refer me to a surgeon. And the truth is I've been close a number of times but just as I get to the point of doing it I get a remission and my lumps evaporate. I'd also just throw in that sometimes the flare ups are asymmetric AND I've also had mammograms done as well and they say it isn't cancerous.

Over the years i have systematically removed from my diet and environment everything that can disrupt the endocrine system. With one glaring exception--clonazepam which, for reasons too long to go into, isn't going away any time soon. I've tried for a very long time to find out what it is about the benzos that causes gyno in some and all I can find is that there may be a dopamine and prolactin connection. I'm running cabaser (and yes kicking myself for not trying it sooner) right now but I have hard lumps and not the classic prolactin symptoms (lactation).

So the question is this. What is the stack that a person would use to combat gyno if their axis is "normal" in every way that can be measured?

 

[RADAR]

I would suggest Letro,that is the most effective.


RADAR

 

[mr.nitro]

just have it removed.

 

[Joe23445]

I've run letro until my joints felt like sandpaper. No help. I even have a weird situation with the surgery because currently the left side is in complete remission. You'd have a tough time even knowing there is gyno on that side (completely soft, no hard nodule at all).

Also, if the surgeon isn't extremely careful to get every last bit of the gland then I can be right back where I started. The surgery isn't going to alter the hormonal milieu that is the source of the problem.

One additional datapoint I forgot to mention is that 1mg propecia turned on my gyno within just a few days. I know that isn't all that uncommon as DHT can be a competitive antagonist for receptors that can cause growth in breast tissue. So before I even consider surgery I want to find SOMETHING that works so that I can run that as needed if a flare up happens after the surgery.

I don't think I've ever read about a case like mine anywhere...ever. I'm willing to experiment and my pockets are fairly deep for this. Though you guys would want in on this if for no other reason than it might offer insights to breast tumor growth generally...particularly the atypical kind that I've described.

 

[redsamurai]

once you get it removed you can probably go off the klono. Can't you see what this has done to your mind for 9 years? Just get rid of em whether in remission or not. And try your damdest to get off those benzo's, especially klono. I was on that shit for literally only a few days before I realized this was fucking with my mind something bad. The stress and depression that you got from having to deal with those gyno flare ups is probably partly responsible for having to go on klono in the first place. And then the klono has it's own properties apparently with you that it causes you to have gyno flare ups......that's a viscious loop you gotta get out of something quick.

 

[-SD-]

how would it be possible to have gyno surgery covered by insurance?

 

[timtim]

once you get it removed you can probably go off the klono. Can't you see what this has done to your mind for 9 years? Just get rid of em whether in remission or not. And try your damdest to get off those benzo's, especially klono. I was on that shit for literally only a few days before I realized this was fucking with my mind something bad. The stress and depression that you got from having to deal with those gyno flare ups is probably partly responsible for having to go on klono in the first place. And then the klono has it's own properties apparently with you that it causes you to have gyno flare ups......that's a viscious loop you gotta get out of something quick.

klonopin doesnt mess everyone up. some people require anti-anxiety measures stronger then a positive attitude. if he says he needs it, theres a reason. 1mg before bed actually allows me to sleep. i havent slept in years. i do now. the effects vary on the person using.

 

[redsamurai]

klonopin doesnt mess everyone up. some people require anti-anxiety measures stronger then a positive attitude. if he says he needs it, theres a reason. 1mg before bed actually allows me to sleep. i havent slept in years. i do now. the effects vary on the person using.

It's possible it was interacting with other drugs I was taking. That inconsistency with all these drugs and how they can comingle, it scares the shit out of me. I can't take away what it's doing for you, I would just suggest that everything that isn't natural "eventually" has a price. It's disconcerting what I've read about how benzo's mess with your brain chemistry. Nobody really knows the long term ramifications, but early set on alzheimers is a distinct possibility as well as parkinsons. To each their own, but I would just so highly recommend to anyone to look at their lifestyle first instead of taking these drugs. I've gotten myself back to the point where i don't need shit........but the few times that I do, one or two hits of weed and I'm out. What I can say about the benzo's is that yeah you got to sleep, but your sleep was shit. Mornings SUCKED, that's because you didn't hit your deep sleep. If I take one or two hits of weed not only do I wake up refreshed, I'm sporting 5 star mast....lol.

How's the quality of your sleep been on the klono?

 

[timtim]

It's possible it was interacting with other drugs I was taking. That inconsistency with all these drugs and how they can comingle, it scares the shit out of me. I can't take away what it's doing for you, I would just suggest that everything that isn't natural "eventually" has a price. It's disconcerting what I've read about how benzo's mess with your brain chemistry. Nobody really knows the long term ramifications, but early set on alzheimers is a distinct possibility as well as parkinsons. To each their own, but I would just so highly recommend to anyone to look at their lifestyle first instead of taking these drugs. I've gotten myself back to the point where i don't need shit........but the few times that I do, one or two hits of weed and I'm out. What I can say about the benzo's is that yeah you got to sleep, but your sleep was shit. Mornings SUCKED, that's because you didn't hit your deep sleep. If I take one or two hits of weed not only do I wake up refreshed, I'm sporting 5 star mast....lol.

How's the quality of your sleep been on the klono?

its been good. i am coming off though because with a newborn coming, it wouldnt do anything. for now, ill finish my script. its only been 7 months. i also plan on doing a taper to .5, then .5 eod, then e3d, then off. i dont disagree with you. trust me. im with ya but sometimes people just need that. i will transition to a different sleep med if i need to, like an ambian. benzos are strong shit. i didnt respect it a few times and now im scared straight. 1mg before bed. thats it.

 

[Burpees]

how would it be possible to have gyno surgery covered by insurance?

mine was, but i was under aged, and i think it posed a threat to my mental well being..

my nips get bothered at the start of a cycle but never does it get puffy.

 

[redsamurai]

its been good. i am coming off though because with a newborn coming, it wouldnt do anything. for now, ill finish my script. its only been 7 months. i also plan on doing a taper to .5, then .5 eod, then e3d, then off. i dont disagree with you. trust me. im with ya but sometimes people just need that. i will transition to a different sleep med if i need to, like an ambian. benzos are strong shit. i didnt respect it a few times and now im scared straight. 1mg before bed. thats it.

yeah I wouuldn't fuck with the ambien either bro, people have been getting heart problems, of all things, from that shit. I've also read about some pretty serious breaks from reality. Honestly I would try the herb before you go on to ambiens, that's a strong drug too.

what happened to you on the benzo's that scared you?

 

[timtim]

yeah I wouuldn't fuck with the ambien either bro, people have been getting heart problems, of all things, from that shit. I've also read about some pretty serious breaks from reality. Honestly I would try the herb before you go on to ambiens, that's a strong drug too.

what happened to you on the benzo's that scared you?

drank alittle with 3mg. i was a mess and i didnt drink much. i woke up feeling ridiculously depressed and like complete shit. i wont mess with them for relaxing purposes ever again. just sleep. what a terrible feeling i had, scary. weed is great. im hoping with the baby that ill be able to get over the insomnia issues. the goal is no drugs, pulling for that.

 

[joe d]

surgery.. i would just get it over with.

 

[Joe23445]

Update alert:

I got the Cabaser and started it as 1mg e3d. After two weeks all I had to show for it was a massive and unbearable case of constipation. However, since that is one of the primary side-effects i was also encouraged that the source was legit. This made me decide to throw down the 2 bills to buy 30 letro tabs.

Now, I have to mention that I thought I had tried AIs in the past. I had tried the liqui* stuff, and even gotten some joint pain but no gyno relief. However the difference here has been night and day. Since I started the letro tabs 3.5 days ago the pain under my left nip has vanished (in fact it stopped hurting 90% the very next day). So i feel a mixture of happiness and stupidity for not trying the more pricey tabs a long time ago. I'm also peripherally annoyed at my endos for steadfastly refusing to let me try an AI.

Anyway, I think i mentioned in the first post to this thread that this is VERY old gyno. With this new data I do believe it is pretty much the standard ER induced type. Since nolvadex has not worked for me (legit stuff from US pharma) I guess that I just have very extremely sensitive cells that respond to even a small amount of estrogen. I'm running 1.25mg letro a day and at that dose I expect it to reduce my E levels to almost none in a short timeframe. In fact, given how fast it worked I think 1.25 a day may even be overkill but whatever. I'm also using supplemental calcium, vit D and glucoasmine. IF I start to feel gland reduction (reduction of the fibrous tissue) I'm going to try to run the letro as long as possible.

A fellow board member had a really good idea and I plan to have nolva ready for when I DO taper the letro down. I may try to run this in cycles (letro then nolva then back to letro etc) and see if i can kill 10 year old gyno. I'll check back in as conditions warrant.

 

[Burpees]

watch your lipids there buddy.. these drugs have sides too.

 

[Joe23445]

Update, I'm about 21 days in and I'm still running 1.25 per day. According to the package insert that means I'm about to reach steady state. It is subtle but I THINK there has been some gland reduction. There has absolutely been a softening in the gland on the right side. So far no obvious side effects. I'd say my temper is a bit shorter but I'm not at all prepared to blame the letro for that. The initial immediate reaction had me hoping that the glandular growth would melt away but that hasn't been the case. I'm planning to run 1.25 for another month before I see my cardiologist for my yearly workup. I'll get a chance to see if there has been any immediate impact on my lipid profile. I'll also have a better idea if there is actual gland reduction going on.

At that point I'll decide whether to taper with nolva or not. So far I'm not too concerned about bone loss as that seems to be something that takes a very long time to occur. The research studies were 2 and 5 year time durations so I'm not too worried about that at 1-2 months (also testo is involved in preventing bone loss so it may be even slower in men). I do sometimes wonder if the bros are a little bit TOO afraid of letro...and too timid in its longer term use, if needed. Sadly I don't really have a good excuse to ask my doctor to do bone density tests.

 

[Joe23445]

I'm at 41days at 1.25 letro and I can pretty safely say there has been very little reduction in the gland tissue and my nips are about as puffy as they always were. Oh well. On the plus side the gland tissue that is there is now soft rather than very hard. So I don't think this experiment is over just yet. In fact when I've had spontaneous remissions in the past the progression is usually from hard, to soft and then to shrinkage.

I'm going to start nolva soon as I taper off the letro and that will offer an opportunity to see if the combination of letro and nolva has any additional effect on existing gland tissue because there will be some overlap (some by design and some just due to the 1/2 lives involved). I seriously doubt it but iI know some guys here swear that letro+nolva is the magic combo.

Still planning a lipid (and CBC) workup at the 60 day range to see if the letro fucked up my profile that quickly. If not then I may run the nolva and then plan to go back on the letro even longer term--perhaps 90 days and then recheck my bloodwork. My reasoning is that if the presence of estrogen caused the growth then the cells are E dependent and longer term removal of E will eventually shrink them.
I know some people will just say "surgery man" but surgery isn't without serious risks. Not only that but the results often can really suck ass from an asthetic standpoint. So I'm going to see what can be done phamacologically and hopefully people will benefit from my experimentation.

 

[Mac173]

I was on seroquel and got a moderate case of gyno only in one nip. Was not on anything else (RX or performance enhancing whatsoever) the entire duration I was prescribed seroquel which was about two years. Within weeks of discontinuing this medication the marble sized lump was completely gone. Maybe it was coincidence, maybe not. I'm not saying get off the klono or that that is even the problem, cause if you need it you need it and you seem to right now. Your situation seems to be pretty abnormal. My suggestion would be to get surgery but obviously that is something that you and your doc would have to figure out.

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

I thought gyno surgery was considered cosmetic and therefore not covered by insurance?

 

[Mac173]

I thought gyno surgery was considered cosmetic and therefore not covered by insurance?

I think it's more of a case to case basis.

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

I think it's more of a case to case basis.

do you have an idea what would be a case that the insurance would cover the surgery?

 

[MSA122]

do you have an idea what would be a case that the insurance would cover the surgery?

impacting your quality of life; pain, can't sleep on your stomach, wakes you up when you roll over, hurts raising your arm, shirts rub your nipples raw and always hurt, etc. has to be about a physical problem, not the look.
Also, you'll probably have to go to a non-cosmetic surgeon, and they'll just remove the gland, no lipo of any extra fat too, unless that's also adding to some physical complication.

 

[needtogetaas]

I know a lot about the subject. Love to help people so pm me for advice. Thank you.

 

[taoiron]

just have it removed.

Agree… I had mine done 2.5 years agoish.. Best money I ever spent. It made no since to me to be spending countless hours training.. Significant money on supplements and gear yet I would not take my shirt off in public. Mine cost less than 3g… Done by a great doc here in the KC area..

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

impacting your quality of life; pain, can't sleep on your stomach, wakes you up when you roll over, hurts raising your arm, shirts rub your nipples raw and always hurt, etc. has to be about a physical problem, not the look.
Also, you'll probably have to go to a non-cosmetic surgeon, and they'll just remove the gland, no lipo of any extra fat too, unless that's also adding to some physical complication.

I looked in to a couple of years ago and I got quoted about 11,000 bucks. It was a little out of my range, so I didn't get it done, but I've been wanting it for YEARS.

I have hereditary gyno so I've been lead to believe that there isn't much I can do about it other than surgery.

 

[Joe23445]

I'm at 41days at 1.25 letro and I can pretty safely say there has been very little reduction in the gland tissue and my nips are about as puffy as they always were. Oh well. On the plus side the gland tissue that is there is now soft rather than very hard. So I don't think this experiment is over just yet. In fact when I've had spontaneous remissions in the past the progression is usually from hard, to soft and then to shrinkage.

I'm going to start nolva soon as I taper off the letro and that will offer an opportunity to see if the combination of letro and nolva has any additional effect on existing gland tissue because there will be some overlap (some by design and some just due to the 1/2 lives involved). I seriously doubt it but iI know some guys here swear that letro+nolva is the magic combo.

On Sept 11 i moved to 1/4 a day and then on 9/22 I stopped the letro completely and started 20mg nolvadex every day. I've been running that ever since so I'm now 25 days into the Nolvadex. At this point I'd expect the letro to have 1/2 lifed out of my system. Definitely no recurrence of pain on either side and I'm willing to say that my subjective opinion is that the fibrous tissue has shrunken just a bit (particularly on the left side).

I did have a whole blood workup done this week (including lipids) so I'll have some data on that fairly soon. As for side-effects i can see or feel pretty much the only one is joint pain. In retrospect I should have been running high dose fish oil and vitamin D along with the calcium, glucoasmine. As far as i can tell estrogen plays a role in suppressing inflammation in the joints so adding in the fish oil should help. There is also some evidence that low estrogen depletes vitamin D. I'll probably have more reflections if my bloodwork went to shit.

The period when the nolva and letro were active in my system DID seem to offer a very slight reduction in the fibrous tissue. Again, we're talking subjective here--it isn't like it melted away to nothing. However, I'm SO much better than where I started. I can take my shirt off again without feeling like my tits are flopping out. I'm happy to know that the cause of my gyno was indeed estrogen because I may be more likely to consider surgery if I at least know i can do something if it were to start to come back AFTER surgery. With gynecomastia in men it is like you are totally on your own. The insurance companies don't want to hear about it and if your hormone values are in-range that is pretty much all the endos care about. Well mine were in-range and i was still growing tits, very slowly, for many years. Finally with some REAL letrozole i was able to at least determine that, yes, it is estrogen dependent.

I'll be running the nolvadex for 60 days and evaluating how I feel once the nolva is out of my system (I'd say about 30-45 days). Probably one more post on my bloodwork and then a post cycle wrapup in about a month.

 

[the pure]

hey guys,I'm really new new so don't flame me too bad..I've been working out for 20 nyears,never used gear..have everything down pat except for PCt..Could someone lead me in the right direction I'm 36 years old 210 with about 8percent bodyfat.is the site on here sponsored safe??I'm looking to get Nolva but do I need anything else to take with it and should i take the nolva through my cycle.I'm looking to put on 20 pounds,I'm stacking 2 types,done alot of research and alot of different products have been mentioned..I just need to know if i need 1 or 2 at the end or if I need to run 1 while i'm cycling..anyhelp would be greatly appreciated..

 

[ALIN]

I'd say that my gyno saga began about 12 years ago. It started with the tail end of a cycle of androstenedione. This is back in the day when PA was still selling the powder from a van in his backyard.

Anyway, after that a very long and drawn out saga began. Many blood tests and lots of different things attempted to put an end to the problem. In the here and now I've been off any kind of AAS for at least 9 years and maybe longer (yes most of this issue has been ongoing without any AAS in the picture.)

At times my gyno has almost completely evaporated on its own. Over the years there have been inexplicable flare ups and then flare downs. On one bad flare up nolvadex worked and then on the next flareup it did jack shit. AIs have been completely useless and my bloodwork hasn't shown anything that is out of range (T/E OK, progesterone, prolactin, HGH, thyroid, etc, all normal).

I've had three endos throw up their hands and refer me to a surgeon. And the truth is I've been close a number of times but just as I get to the point of doing it I get a remission and my lumps evaporate. I'd also just throw in that sometimes the flare ups are asymmetric AND I've also had mammograms done as well and they say it isn't cancerous.

Over the years i have systematically removed from my diet and environment everything that can disrupt the endocrine system. With one glaring exception--clonazepam which, for reasons too long to go into, isn't going away any time soon. I've tried for a very long time to find out what it is about the benzos that causes gyno in some and all I can find is that there may be a dopamine and prolactin connection. I'm running cabaser (and yes kicking myself for not trying it sooner) right now but I have hard lumps and not the classic prolactin symptoms (lactation).

So the question is this. What is the stack that a person would use to combat gyno if their axis is "normal" in every way that can be measured?

I have a very close friend who uses the benzo xanax an has gyno,,,and has never touched AAS.

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

Agree… I had mine done 2.5 years agoish.. Best money I ever spent. It made no since to me to be spending countless hours training.. Significant money on supplements and gear yet I would not take my shirt off in public. Mine cost less than 3g… Done by a great doc here in the KC area..

3K? That's cheap.

 

[taoiron]

3K? That's cheap.

Yep... But the results were fantastic... My avi is post op!!

I have sent 2 others to the same doc... Both have had similar results..

Tao

 

[Joe23445]

Hey bros, possibly last post because I want to wrap it all up and I think i only need one more post to do that.

My bloodwork came back and my total cholesterol is down 10 pts from baseline. My ratio went from 3.3 to 3.7 (both are pretty good). It is worth noting that this blookwork was about 2 weeks after I stopped the letro. and about 2 weeks AFTER I had started the Nolva. The nolva may have helped to normalize my lipids but I think my results make clear that, at least for me, letro didn't send my lipids to shit. All my other bloodwork was fine except some odd bilirubin in my urine (but my liver is fine). I did read that nolvadex can cause abnormal bilirubin but neither my doc nor me are worried about it.

Note, I did not bother with hormone profiles because I'm sure they would have been all fucked up. I still have 5 20mg nolva left so this cycle isn't quite over. So far the worst side effect has been in my knees. I can't stress enough how helpful the high dose fish oil has been. Low estrogen almost guarantees inflammation in your joints. This whole cycle definitely put my gyno into "remission" meaning that it is not growing. However the fibrous existing tissue is still there so it does not appear that this effort was successful in that regard. My HOPE is that I've "reset" my system and very slowly over time my body will reabsorb the tissue but I did at least deal with the immediate problem that I outlined all the way back in the beginning of this thread. Hopefully someone can find some value in this rather lengthy case study.