Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
Research Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsResearch Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic

Why I don't believe in God. Those who believe, please help me understand...

there was a fascinating piece in the NYT book review about God last Sunday. I'm going to paste it rather than just posting the link since the Times stuff is free only for a limited time. I*'ll paste in the link below, if you want to read it online. I have read the older book and rank it with Karen Armstrong's work.

_____________________

December 23, 2001

Jack Miles's 'Christ': Nobody's Perfect
By MICHAEL WOOD



THE wrath of God and the love of God are familiar notions, however infrequent or even nonexistent our encounters with them. But what about God's anxiety or God's distress? Could God change his mind? Could he repent? Could he atone? Could he get tired? Could he fail, and learn from his failures? He has all these experiences in Jack Miles's two provocative and deeply engaging books: the Pulitzer Prize-winning ''God: A Biography,'' published in 1995, and now ''Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God.''

The very titles of these books are balancing acts, evocations of paradox and mischief. Hasn't God's biography already been written, if a biography is what he has? And isn't the Christ of Christian believers usually thought of as far more than a crisis in God's life? Is the historical Jesus a part of God's life at all if he is a fabulously charismatic but entirely human being? But Miles knows exactly what he is doing. He is treating the Bible as a great work of art -- no more, no less. His metaphor, in the second book, is that of looking at the Bible rather than through it, as if it were a stained-glass window. ''Why,'' he asks, ''may the Gospels not be read as the religiously motivated, artistically executed texts that an unforced reading would suggest them to be?''

The phrase about the unforced reading is rather tendentious, since Miles can do a bit of forcing when he feels like it, but the question is a good one. To treat the Bible as literature -- that is, as a powerful collection of songs, stories, poems, legends, fables and proverbs as well as a great deal of history and religious instruction -- in no way requires us to deny its importance for historians and philosophers and for two world religions.

''We are all, in a way, immigrants from the past,'' Miles writes in ''God: A Biography,'' and the attraction of a close study of the Bible is that it will show many people their own faces in the faces of apparent strangers. The strangest of these, in the Hebrew Bible, is God himself -- in Miles's view, a complex and contradictory character who learns who he is only through his interactions with humans. ''There are no 'adventures of God,' '' Miles writes in the earlier book. ''His only way of pursuing an interest in himself is through mankind.''

God is not just the sum of our adventures, but he is, in the text seen as literature, the sum of what we have tried to make of him. It is for this reason that his hopes and fears are ours. He is, as Miles puts it, ''the divided original whose divided image we remain. His is the restless breathing we still hear in our sleep.'' It is for the same reason, I take it, that Miles can slyly acknowledge God, alphabetically listed between friends whose names begin with an F and a G, as among those who ''helped'' him with the book of that title.

Toward the end of the Hebrew Bible, God has gone silent, and the children of Israel have long been in exile, as if their forefathers had never been brought out of Egypt. This situation, Miles argues, must place God in a condition of distress, even if -- or just because -- it is his own doing. Evoking this condition in ''God: A Biography,'' Miles comes across, more than once, the sub-title of his next book: ''a crisis in the life of God.'' As represented in the New Testament, God resolves the crisis by taking human form as his own son and allowing the Romans to crucify him.

How is this a resolution? In Christian doctrine, God sacrifices himself for the sins of humankind and replaces his old covenant of mercy and justice toward a chosen people with a new covenant of love toward those who choose to worship him. ''For God so loved the world,'' we read in the King James Version of the Gospel of St. John, ''that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'' He will, in Miles's terms, ''begin a new creation that will correct the old,'' and all his promises of long-delayed worldly success will be converted into metaphors of ultimate spiritual triumph. The multiple enemies of ancient Israel become the single enemy of us all: Satan, the adversary whom God, through Cain, once allowed to invent murder.

But ''against the usual Christian spiritualization of the Old Testament,'' Miles proposes ''a relative materialization of the New Testament, in which God's real-world, land-and-wealth-and-offspring promises to the Jews are expected to remain on his mind.'' In this interpretation, God is a sleeping pragmatist who wakes one day to realize that the old promise won't work, who must therefore break it and make a new one. The not-yet Christian God, Miles suggests, ''needs a way to fail'' and makes a ''brilliant adjustment of the idea of covenant,'' deciding to accept his own guilt for what has happened since creation and to die for his people rather than scatter their human enemies once again.

''A priest who is his own sacrificial lamb, a lamb who is his own sacrificing priest, a father who is his own son, an Isaac who is his own Abraham, with the dagger in his own hand -- it is by this fusion of identities that the crisis in the life of God is resolved.'' God, Miles explains, ''found a way to turn his defeat into a victory, but the defeat came first.'' He ''had to learn how to win by losing.''

This proposition sounds far-fetched until you think of the historical worldly success of Christianity, although this no doubt rests on some astute political practice as well as on preaching. But the scandalous brilliance of the Christian covenant becomes clearer if you think of its consequences. You can win by losing, but only if you manage to invert the meaning of the terms. Christ -- either the person himself or those who wrote his story or a combination of both -- turned the very ideas of life and death upside down. He died, it seems, and the world went on living.

The Christian assertion is exactly the reverse: the world is dead and only Christ and those who believe in him are truly alive. When Christians take communion, they are said, in St. Paul's extraordinary words, to ''show the Lord's death till he come'' -- that is, they insist ritually on an apparent death in the past in order to celebrate the end of death itself in the future. The miracle is that anyone would believe this -- much less, within barely three centuries, most of the Roman Empire, including the emperor himself.

This is a spectacular story, and Miles tells it very well. However, two doubts grew on me as I read this pair of remarkable books. First, the story is so spectacular -- nothing less than a repudiation of what we might think of as the ordinary, providential relation of religion and history -- that I wonder whether it can be enough to say that God changed his mind, even under tremendous pressure. ''It has been the thesis of this book that so problematic a turn in the life of God . . . can only be explained by supposing a prior problem for which this enormity may seem the resolution.'' But can it be explained at all? And wouldn't any attempted explanation have to be theological, whatever it called itself?

What Miles defines as a literary reading of the Bible turns out to be an elaborately argued guess about what God might have been thinking and feeling if he had been a human being. It is true that God is said to have created us in his own image, ''an unmistakable invitation,'' Miles says, ''to make some sense of God in human terms.'' This is certainly an invitation to see God as not entirely inaccessible to the human mind and heart, but is it an invitation to reduce him to our psychology? Can we speak plausibly, as Miles seeks to, of ''the deep psychological peculiarity, the uncanniness, the elusive weirdness of the Lord God'' or the collection of ''personality profiles'' that compose him? Doesn't such language tilt us toward the dizzying anachronistic jokes of Woody Allen or Mel Brooks?

The second doubt has to do with Miles's exclusive interest in God as a character -- and indeed his interest in character to the exclusion of almost everything else. For Miles, literary criticism is primarily the psychological understanding of the real or imaginary people in a text. There's nothing wrong with that, but to promote character at the expense of language, imagery, motif, structure, voice, tone, point of view, plot, genre, verse form, imputed intention, audience response and much else is to offer us a very restricted view of what literary study can do.

It is true (or can be true) that, as Miles says, ''even at moments when literary intent is questionable, literary effect is undeniable.'' But the so-called death of the author doesn't mean there are no writers, only that writers and readers need to collaborate, that there can be several Shakespeares and not just the one our professor dogmatically insisted upon. Of course, Miles knows this, and at times says so clearly. ''What the radical reversal in the divine identity implied by the pacifist preaching of Jesus suggests is that a Jewish writer of powerful imagination projected this crisis of faith into the mind of God, transforming it into a crisis of conscience.'' But mainly Miles treats the product of this and other Jewish imaginations as a free-standing character, complicated and divided but finally autonomous, like a David Copperfield who has gotten rid of Dickens.

Federico Fellini once said that when he was a child he thought movies were made up by their actors; it didn't occur to him that there were writers and directors. Miles goes one step farther and ascribes all the motions of his book to its chief character. This is a sweeping critical gesture, and it makes for exciting reading. But the final effect is to mystify, to turn back into fable, what Miles is otherwise so finely unraveling. It is to evoke the amazing triumphs of God's writers and readers, but then award them to their own creature, which is entirely appropriate for a religious reading if you believe God inspired the writers and the readers in the first place. But if we subtract Shakespeare (whoever we think he is) from ''King Lear,'' we don't have a play, let alone a masterpiece. We just have a wild old man.


Michael Wood teaches English and comparative literature at Princeton University. His most recent book is ''Children of Silence: On Contemporary Fiction.''


Click here to go to the NYT site.
 
Upon this theological instinct I make war: I find the tracks of it everywhere. [/URL] Whoever has theological blood in his veins is shifty and dishonourable in all things. The pathetic thing that grows out of this condition is called faith: in other words, closing one's eyes upon oneself once and for all, to avoid suffering the sight of incurable falsehood. People erect a concept of morality, of virtue, of holiness upon this false view of all things; they ground good conscience upon faulty vision; they argue that no other sort of vision has value any more, once they have made theirs sacrosanct with the names of "God," "salvation" and "eternity." I unearth this theological instinct in all directions: it is the most widespread and the most subterranean form of falsehood to be found on earth. Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth. -nietzsche
http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/anti.htm
 
Hey Big bro, I assume you are searching for answers supported by Christians, then you can go here to see them:

http://www.christiananswers.net

or

http://www.christiananswers.net/directry.html

Look around, ask yourself questions, form your own opinion. Since I am a science-oriented person; I am extremely skeptical about everything, but I make close observations and generalisations of people that do not love, or claim to be atheist, and people that do, and there is one thing I do not deny it is the existance and of God, and his help when I asked him.
 
Hey Val,

Good post. Great thread.

I wanted to give you some input from my perspective. I hope you will read it with an open mind and consider it. I think it's important to acknowledge that all of us here come to moral issues from our own particular paradigm or point of view. This means that it's difficult to discuss these things because we will tend to interpret every statement based on our predetermined belief system. I think if we acknowledge that, we can have better discourse.

So, here are some thoughts...

The Question: "If God is loving, why do bad things happen to people?"

This, of course, is one of the great questions. It's a powerful question. And, like you, many people (including myself) have struggled with it. According to a recent PBS documentary, Charles Darwin asked the same question after the untimely death of his daughter. A lack of a clear answer, led him to reject the last shreds of his faith in God. Like Darwin, many people ultimately reject the existence of God because they can't understand how God can allow terrible things to happen to innocent children.

The God of Evolution:

If you assume, however, that there is no God, then you are faced with the question of how people came to exist. Many people today believe that we are the product of evolution. They believe that people are the result of millions of years of small instances of random chance and coincidence that ultimately led to the development of the universe, earth, plants, animals and the human race. The evolutionary paradigm is that matter, plus time, plus random chance, equals complexity.

Evolution requires death and suffering. Survival of the fittest is the rule. In evolutionary theory, only the stronger creatures perpetuate and the weaker creatures die. In fact, death is the inherent process through which evolution could occur. Millions of years of death and mutation until you get people.

If this is true, then death and suffering are a normal part of life, because they are the process through which all creatures evolve. As humans, we are merely the product of some genetic fluke that allowed us to evolve brain receptors that enable us to think about complex things like, “Why is there death and suffering?” Ultimately, we are little more than protoplasm that will eventually be dirt someday.

If evolution is true, then there would be no need for an absolute morality. All moral thought would merely be the result of random mutations. If survival of the fittest is the rule, then we should do whatever we want as long as it serves us. After all, life is just a contest in which the strongest monkey wins. And every monkey will ultimately inherit the same thing – death.

Death and suffering are just part of life in the non-God, evolutionary paradigm. There is no meaning in suffering – it just is.

The Creator God:

If you reject the nihilistic“people are just the result of random chance and coincidence” philosophy, you are faced with the question of what force created the universe and gave life to people.

Again, depending on your worldview, here is a point at which you have to try to look at things from a different perspective. As a Christian, I believe that the entire meaning of suffering is contained in the Bible. Of course, since no one has seen our Heavenly Father, this is a matter of faith. But it is also a matter of faith to believe that the universe and everything in it exploded from nothing at some point millions of years ago. After all, no one has seen that either. In fact, everyone functions on faith – it’s just a matter of the object of that faith.

The Bible says that God created the first couple on the Earth (Adam and Eve) to have a special relationship with Him. However, they rejected God's only voiced command in order to "become like God." Since God is the creator, the giver of life, it is only logical that any attempt by the "created" to live life apart from God, would result in the opposite of life - which is death. Adam and Eve tried to live life apart from God, and all of their descendants have been doing the same thing ever since. Thus, death, destruction, sickness and tragedy are the logical result of an entire planet of people who try to live their lives apart from their creator.

Sure, children are innocent in a sense. But I’m sure you’ve noticed that you have to teach them to be good. They are generally bent toward selfishness. Without parental and societal intervention, a child lacks a natural understanding of morality. According to the Bible, ever since Adam and Eve, everyone is born with this desire to separate themselves from the laws of God - a desire to focus on self and “become like God” by establishing our own rules of conduct and behavior. (Certainly, I’ve found that to be true in my own life.)

Why Bad Things Happen (according to the Bible):

I believe that the Bible has an incredibly plausible explanation of why bad things happen to people. It says that bad things happen because it is the natural consequence of the creation rejecting the creator. The ultimate result of sin in a fallen world is death and destruction. Ultimately, we will all die in one way or another. And our creator provides us with the ability to think about these higher things. (To me, this is far more logical than saying that death and destruction are just a part of the whole evolutionary process and there is no meaning in it whatsoever.)

In fact, Jesus provides an answer to the question "How could God let something like this happen?" in the Bible (Luke 13.) Jesus is asked about a tragic event, where some people were killed in a horrible way. The questioners want to know why they died that way. Jesus’ answer is simply that unless we come to Him, we will all also die. He then asks about what appears to be a tragic accident where a tower has collapsed, killing some people. Again, He offers no reason for the death and tragedy, He simply states that unless we turn from our path of separation from God (repent) and come to Him, we will also perish.

It appears that bad things are a reminder of the fact that we need to turn back to God.

The Good News:

According to the Bible, although pain and suffering are ingrained in the nature of the creation at this point, there is still good news.

The good news is that we can all have eternal life by acknowledging our creator, Jesus Christ, who provided atonement for our rejection of Him. Because God is holy and righteous, He cannot dwell with us while we are still imperfect and selfish. In fact, we could never measure up to the perfect standards of God. However, because He is also loving, He provided Christ to die in our place, effectively paying the price for our separation from Him.

There is a story of a great king who was very righteous. Because he was righteous, he would punish those subjects who stole from others. But the king was also loving, and he loved his daughter deeply above all else. He commanded his subjects to love their children and take care of them. One day, the king’s daughter was caught stealing, breaking the law of the king. The punishment, 40 lashes of the whip, would surely kill the child. And the entire kingdom waited anxiously to find out how the king would reconcile his righteousness with his love. Ultimately, the day for punishment came. The massive king sentenced the daughter to 40 lashes for breaking the law. His righteousness was fulfilled. The soldiers positioned the daughter to be whipped when, suddenly, the massive king (obviously a bodybuilder) rose from his throne and removed his shirt. He walked down to his daughter and covered her body with his own massive body and told the soldiers to commence punishment. In this way, he took his daughter’s punishment upon himself, and both his love and his righteousness were fulfilled. His daughter saw this great love and was compelled to obey the laws of her father from that day on.

This is how the Bible says our God has dealt with us.

If we acknowledge the righteousness of Christ as our creator and the love of Christ as our redeemer, we will be ultimately restored to the original creation – an eternal life without pain and suffering.



I’ve been thinking about you a lot Val. Especially in regard to your post on that other thread. You’re in my prayers. I hope you will consider this, and let me know your thoughts, questions and concerns.
 
Top Bottom