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Why I don't believe in God. Those who believe, please help me understand...

HumorMe said:


Thinker,
I am a God fearing, non violent person. I choose not to react violently to people but in your case I can honestly say I really don't know how I would react. I have two daughters and like you, they are the world to me and my wife. To say I would do that or do this if somebody hurt them, well, I just don't know how I would react until I was put into that situation. I would hope that I would choose something that wouldn't put me in jail and away from my family, but then again, the anger I would have for that person for hurting a child, my child at that, I think my emotions would overrun me and control me to the point of exacting revenge on that person. I respect the decision you made and do not find fault in it! Every person has their own way of dealing with emotional situations such as this.

On a side note: I hope the fucker never walks again!!!!!!! I don't say that to be funny. Harming children is the ultimate sin and ranks alongside of murder! That's my opinion though!

Later!

your words have touched me as well my friend...i have not spoken about this for awhile and it feels good not to be criticized about a decision i made...in addition...your last note just happens to be my opinion as well...nobody has the right to take away a child's innocence...IT IS THE ULTIMATE SIN.
 
da big thinker said:


your words have touched me as well my friend...i have not spoken about this for awhile and it feels good not to be criticized about a decision i made...in addition...your last note just happens to be my opinion as well...nobody has the right to take away a child's innocence...IT IS THE ULTIMATE SIN.


I think your words have touched me more! If a person were to criticize your actions, that person would obviously not be a parent. Children are our most cherished resource. We were married five years before we had our first child. There is nobody anywhere that could explain the feelings to me about being a father. It's something you have to experience yourself! As I watched my wife give birth to our first daughter, the emotions that ran through the delivery room were overwhelming. The tears that flowed when that doctor placed her in my arms can never be described by me. God has blessed us with a great marriage and two wonderful daughters. It's hard for me to believe how fast my kids are growing up.
I cannot fathom what you have gone through dealing with this situation. I know it is painful to reflect on this particular event but faith in God can climb any mountain. I can only pray and hope I do not have to experience something such as this. I tip my hat to you! You are a good man!

Later.
 
Originally posted by BBV:
"I have the address of a guy who killed his 3 month old baby... hung her by the neck from a fucking doorknob...

I am seriously contemplating killing him.

Thing is... if I do... then I get to go to hell for doing the work God should be doing.

I just don't understand... and it frustrates me like I cannot explain. "

I am deeply sorry about your troubles big thinker. I don't think I could understand fully because I do not have any kids. On the other hand, I do love kids and I am not sure how I would react either. I can only compare it to what I would do to someone that might harm my girlfriend. I don't think it would be pretty but then again since I have put my faith in the Lord it does change you and you really don't know how you would react until you get to that situation. Anyhow, on to BBV's post. If you put your trust in the Lord then you start to understand that the pain this man will suffer after he dies will be far greater than anything he could ever imagine here on earth. It surely does suck that it happens and people like you and me suffer from this agony that exists in our world but when we go to Heaven we will no longer suffer. I'm not sure if you understand my post, but what I am trying to say is that in the end the people that do wrong receive their judgement and the people that do right will be rewarded.
 
BigBrotherVal:

If you feel like you want to do something to help the children in your area and make an impact on their lives, why don' you try joining your local Child Advocacy Center? My bestfriend's dad is the lead man for the CAC in Chicago. He's a truly amazing man, last night at dinner - it was my buddies 21st - I found out just how passionate he is about children and how they should be treated. Someone at the table made a comment about how children were being abused in the city, and his response was priceless. I don't remember his exact words - I was a little on the buzzed side - but the jist of it was that if a parent abuses their child that parent should be taken care of.

I know that response wasn't along the lines of your wanting to find "God" for you. (Use of quotations is to imply God as not the Catholic or Christian God, but as a God for all religions and faith's) As it's been said before, I, no we, cannot persuade you to believe. That is something that you need to do for yourself. I would be more than happy to keep in contact via email and give you tools and a guide for how you may be able to find God for yourself.

Keep this in mind. I'm a newly turned 21 year old (last month) and I have been told that for my age I am wiser than a lot of 30+ year old people. I'd be more than happy to help you find the answer's you seek.

~p~
 
HumorMe said:



I think your words have touched me more! If a person were to criticize your actions, that person would obviously not be a parent. Children are our most cherished resource. We were married five years before we had our first child. There is nobody anywhere that could explain the feelings to me about being a father. It's something you have to experience yourself! As I watched my wife give birth to our first daughter, the emotions that ran through the delivery room were overwhelming. The tears that flowed when that doctor placed her in my arms can never be described by me. God has blessed us with a great marriage and two wonderful daughters. It's hard for me to believe how fast my kids are growing up.
I cannot fathom what you have gone through dealing with this situation. I know it is painful to reflect on this particular event but faith in God can climb any mountain. I can only pray and hope I do not have to experience something such as this. I tip my hat to you! You are a good man!

Later.

well my friend...i continue climbing that mountain along w/ my daughter...makes me feel fullfilled and a part of something that will be cherished by myself for as long as i live on this earth and thereafter...no matter what obstacles may present themselves i will conquer them along w/ the help of my GOD and daughter.thank you once again for understanding...
 
uNOwho said:
BigBrotherVal:

If you feel like you want to do something to help the children in your area and make an impact on their lives, why don' you try joining your local Child Advocacy Center? My bestfriend's dad is the lead man for the CAC in Chicago. He's a truly amazing man, last night at dinner - it was my buddies 21st - I found out just how passionate he is about children and how they should be treated. Someone at the table made a comment about how children were being abused in the city, and his response was priceless. I don't remember his exact words - I was a little on the buzzed side - but the jist of it was that if a parent abuses their child that parent should be taken care of.

I know that response wasn't along the lines of your wanting to find "God" for you. (Use of quotations is to imply God as not the Catholic or Christian God, but as a God for all religions and faith's) As it's been said before, I, no we, cannot persuade you to believe. That is something that you need to do for yourself. I would be more than happy to keep in contact via email and give you tools and a guide for how you may be able to find God for yourself.

Keep this in mind. I'm a newly turned 21 year old (last month) and I have been told that for my age I am wiser than a lot of 30+ year old people. I'd be more than happy to help you find the answer's you seek.

~p~

age is a number my friend...your intellect WILL make a difference one day(IF it hasn't already)...keep doing what you're doing...
 
uNOwho said:
BigBrotherVal:

If you feel like you want to do something to help the children in your area and make an impact on their lives, why don' you try joining your local Child Advocacy Center? My bestfriend's dad is the lead man for the CAC in Chicago. He's a truly amazing man, last night at dinner - it was my buddies 21st - I found out just how passionate he is about children and how they should be treated. Someone at the table made a comment about how children were being abused in the city, and his response was priceless. I don't remember his exact words - I was a little on the buzzed side - but the jist of it was that if a parent abuses their child that parent should be taken care of.

I know that response wasn't along the lines of your wanting to find "God" for you. (Use of quotations is to imply God as not the Catholic or Christian God, but as a God for all religions and faith's) As it's been said before, I, no we, cannot persuade you to believe. That is something that you need to do for yourself. I would be more than happy to keep in contact via email and give you tools and a guide for how you may be able to find God for yourself.

Keep this in mind. I'm a newly turned 21 year old (last month) and I have been told that for my age I am wiser than a lot of 30+ year old people. I'd be more than happy to help you find the answer's you seek.

~p~


Fabulous suggestion... I'm looking into that as we speak. I guess the main reason I question God, is because if I love children so much, especially my own... how can God let them suffer if his love is something that I cannot comprehend? I put myself in a bad situation financially... and risk jail time with the threats I make to people I see being really rough with their kids... in some cases, throwing them to the ground, cursing, and demanding that they take a shot at me... all because it breaks my heart to think of any child living in fear... especially of their own parents.

I'm posting a thread about an incident that happened at Wal-Mart yesterday... thought I could have gone to jail for... because it's hard for me not to intervene when someone is being rough with their children.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to write all you have. And I sure as shit would have thought you were older than 21.
 
Oh yeah, Thinker. I forgot to mention how truly great you are as a father if you would risk your own life and safety to protect your daughter. That is speaks worlds for you as a person. I admire that, and any man who will go to the end of the Earth for their blood is a friend in my opinion.

Any time I can help with anyone. Don't hesitate to throw me an email.

~p~
 
This is the best thread I have read in a very long time.

A lot of love in here fellas. :angel:

A lot has been said in here, so I won't elaborate too much. Just remember Val... Life is life photography, you need the negatives to develop. Can you really disagree with that? I know I am who I am today, because of the suffering and lessons I have gone through in my life. I wouldn't have the compassion in my heart that I do now if God had not shown me how low low can go, and how beautiful the world can be. God has given me the eyes of a child again, and I can see all the beauty around me. When I walk outside I can feel love through the sunshine. The beauty of the sun beaming down on my face, the leaves whistling in the wind, I realize that everything is alive, and everything is one.

Realize that you are surrounded by living, loving things in this world. Where there is free will, there must be evil. Without evil, we would not have free will. Try not to justify not believing in God because of the ugliness in the world. You, or any other human can not see the big picture. That is why humans don't have the right to judge another. It's impossible. As an example, let's take the SOB that hung his child from a doorknob. Unbelievable to say the least. So, let's say in this lifetime you get the impression that he walks... get's away with murdering his child with no repurcussion. Open your mind here Val... Now, let's take the person that we have seen lose their child to an accident or disease, etc. We evaluate their life, and say, they don't deserve to lose their 3 month old child to a disease, and now they are suffering because they lost their child. How could God do that to him, he was such a great father?

We can't judge humans or God in this life because we don't know the karmic cycle. What if the person you saw as such a great father in this lifetime, was the same man who killed his child in his last life? And, his child's death in this life is to simply teach him the one thing we are put on this planet to learn... how to love.

As my quote says 'Tomorrow is a result of today, and you are the result of yesterday.' Live accordingly and your life will be much greater. Don't throw out the impossible, because if it's impossible for karma to exist, multiple lives, it's just as impossible that you sitting where you are today... it's unexplainable how we all got here, but since we're here on Earth, we believe it, because we can see it. Some things are not as obvious... but it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Well... I went and elaborated. :)
--
 
Crazier said:
This is the best thread I have read in a very long time.

A lot of love in here fellas. :angel:

A lot has been said in here, so I won't elaborate too much. Just remember Val... Life is life photography, you need the negatives to develop. Can you really disagree with that? I know I am who I am today, because of the suffering and lessons I have gone through in my life. I wouldn't have the compassion in my heart that I do now if God had not shown me how low low can go, and how beautiful the world can be. God has given me the eyes of a child again, and I can see all the beauty around me. When I walk outside I can feel love through the sunshine. The beauty of the sun beaming down on my face, the leaves whistling in the wind, I realize that everything is alive, and everything is one.

Realize that you are surrounded by living, loving things in this world. Where there is free will, there must be evil. Without evil, we would not have free will. Try not to justify not believing in God because of the ugliness in the world. You, or any other human can not see the big picture. That is why humans don't have the right to judge another. It's impossible. As an example, let's take the SOB that hung his child from a doorknob. Unbelievable to say the least. So, let's say in this lifetime you get the impression that he walks... get's away with murdering his child with no repurcussion. Open your mind here Val... Now, let's take the person that we have seen lose their child to an accident or disease, etc. We evaluate their life, and say, they don't deserve to lose their 3 month old child to a disease, and now they are suffering because they lost their child. How could God do that to him, he was such a great father?

We can't judge humans or God in this life because we don't know the karmic cycle. What if the person you saw as such a great father in this lifetime, was the same man who killed his child in his last life? And, his child's death in this life is to simply teach him the one thing we are put on this planet to learn... how to love.

As my quote says 'Tomorrow is a result of today, and you are the result of yesterday.' Live accordingly and your life will be much greater. Don't throw out the impossible, because if it's impossible for karma to exist, multiple lives, it's just as impossible that you sitting where you are today... it's unexplainable how we all got here, but since we're here on Earth, we believe it, because we can see it. Some things are not as obvious... but it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Well... I went and elaborated. :)
--


Now THAT was a mighty good post.

Very nice points made, in a way that is easy for me to understand. I know it's true that there cannot be good without evil... and I know people will say that he will suffer in the end... and all of that... but if people are wrong, and there is no afterlife, then damnit, the man needs to pay NOW.

I know I don't blame God for how beautiful and healthy my children are... that's a very valid point. I know there are many wonderful things in life, again, things I really don't give God credit for.

And maybe I shouldn't question God for children who are beaten, or taken away and killed... but it breaks my heart in such a fashion... I lose my appetite... I cannot sleep... hell... I even nearly beat the shit out of people for being too rough with their children.

It's odd, because when you guys make your good points, it does make sense to me. There's just this lingering thought in my head of "WHY!?!?" Why does there have to be evil? If we're just going to an eternal paradise anyway... why not just put us there? Why do children have to suffer to get in?

It SHOULD be a two way street... I SHOULD blame God for the good things, if I can blame him for the bad. Maybe that's the first step I need to take.

But also, if you CAN'T blame God for the bad, how can I THANK him for the good? If he doesn't control the evil on Earth, then he doesn't control the good. The door has to swing both ways.

I really appreciate your post.

That made a hell of a lot of sense to me...

But damnit... those questions just sit there and linger... it's very frustrating.
 
Also... the book called 'Embarced By The Light' is a great read to explain some of your questions. It's a pretty short read, I read it in one day. One of those books you just can't put down. Just a suggestion.
--
 
Crazier said:
Also... the book called 'Embarced By The Light' is a great read to explain some of your questions. It's a pretty short read, I read it in one day. One of those books you just can't put down. Just a suggestion.
--


I'll have to look into that. Is it a religious book? Or just a book on God?
 
The lady who wrote the book was declared dead at a hospital for about four hours. The nurses came in I think a little after midnight, and declared her dead. 4 hours later... she awoke to a sheet over her face. Very chilling. It wasn't her time yet, she had to come back to Earth to finish her calling. But, before she did she was embraced by the light...

Here's an opening:
http://www.embracedbythelight.com/leftside/embraced/retell1.htm

Remember, an open mind is the first step to finding truth.
--
 
Crazier said:
The lady who wrote the book was declared dead at a hospital for about four hours. The nurses came in I think a little after midnight, and declared her dead. 4 hours later... she awoke to a sheet over her face. Very chilling. It wasn't her time yet, she had to come back to Earth to finish her calling. But, before she did she was embraced by the light...

Here's an opening:
http://www.embracedbythelight.com/leftside/embraced/retell1.htm

Remember, an open mind is the first step to finding truth.
--


Oh my hell... I know this book.

It was given to my mother shortly after my brother died.... my grandfather is a very spiritual man, with very strong beliefs. He gave her the book so she wouldn't "fall of the path" so to speak.

Wow.

I hadn't read any of it. I'll have to ask her if I can borrow it.

Thanks again.
 
Big Brother Val said:



Oh my hell... I know this book.

It was given to my mother shortly after my brother died.... my grandfather is a very spiritual man, with very strong beliefs. He gave her the book so she wouldn't "fall of the path" so to speak.

Wow.

I hadn't read any of it. I'll have to ask her if I can borrow it.

Thanks again.

Wow, that is wild... Remember, there is no such thing as a coincidence in life. I hope you read it, and if you do, I hope it helps clear your mind. It is a great read.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother Val.
--
 
Crazier said:
The lady who wrote the book was declared dead at a hospital for about four hours. The nurses came in I think a little after midnight, and declared her dead. 4 hours later... she awoke to a sheet over her face. Very chilling. It wasn't her time yet, she had to come back to Earth to finish her calling. But, before she did she was embraced by the light...

Here's an opening:
http://www.embracedbythelight.com/leftside/embraced/retell1.htm

Remember, an open mind is the first step to finding truth.
--

Crazier......That long post above is one helluva post! Thanks for sharing. I haven't read this particular book but I am going to get it soon. It sounds like a good one! I wanted to relate an experience my mother-in-law had before she died. My wife comes from a large family of 7 kids. She is next to the youngest. Her mother had her first major heart attack at 43 and actually died on the operating room table. At the time of this event, her youngest child was 3. She was a very religious woman and a very loving mother. She related this story to her family and friends before she died at the age of 53. She told of leaving her body and floating above the table while the doctors worked on her. She could actually describe every detail of what they were doing. Then she said this bright light filed the room and she said it was beautiful that she couldn't take her eyes off of it. It was captivating that it beckoned her to follow the trail of light. She can remember seeing dead relatives who were waving to her and patting her on the back while she followed this light. She said she actually sat down with God and asked Him if she could go back(although she said it was so peaceful that she didn't want to leave) because she wanted to live long enough for her youngest child to distinguish right from wrong. She said God made a deal with her that granted her wish and that he wanted her back in ten years when the child turned 13. Now, remember she actually told this story after her first heart attack. After the youngest turned 13, less than three months later she had a massive heart attack at which there was no recovery. The doctors actually said she was probably dead before she ever hit the floor! This story is one of the reason my faith in God is so strong. You can't make this shit up! People can call bullshit on this story but it is very true and one I will never forget. My wife and I have been married for 15 years and she is 39 and since all of the women on her side of the family die at a relatively young age, all of this concerns me. We try and take care of ourselves and eat good and exercise but if God wants to take you......He will....it's that easy for me to explain! I don't fear death but I fear for my children's well-being. If death comes to me or my wife or both of us early, I will depend on my faith in God to take care of them.
 
Damn HumorMe... I had chills running through my body the entire time I read that story. I actually still do. I don't know if you read the excerpt above on that book, but what your mother-in-law described is VERY, VERY similar to what Eadie shares in her book.
Being so close to home, you should definately check the book out.
Thanks for sharing bro!
--
 
The question that you ask is not one that will ever be answered. Alot of the things you said are sayings that people have created over the years, not things that come from the word of God. I don't know if God has a "plan" for us. I believe that God definitely gives us free will.

So there's one answer to your question: God may "plan" for you to become a world leader, to unite the American people and bring peace to the world. Now, I believe God gives everyone free will. So, even if God "planned" for you to become the greatest world leader ever, if you crossed paths with an escaped mental patient, and he put a bullet through your head, that doesn't mean it was God's plan for you to die. Nor was it God's plan for that man to kill you. God also gave the man that shot you free will, and he ended your life. I believe that God knows our tomorrows, but He doesn't necessarily decide them.
 
Crazier... actually... I was not "religious"... but I did pray frequently before he died. It's how my mother was emotionally, mentally crippled after it happened that started my doubt. My brother never believed in God. In fact, he had my mentality now. And the thing that got me going, was the fact that my brother may not be "saved" because of his beliefs. But he was a good guy.

HumorMe... that is one hell of a story. My stepmother actually flatlined once after a carwreck... and she says she saw them doing cpr on her... and stories like that make me wonder if it's a dream, or just coincidence, or what. But at the same time... the accuracy in which they describe what they saw can pretty much wipe away the "dream" theory. Makes me want to read that book even more.

Bigguns7... I can see what your saying... but the question still stands saying, God wouldn't plan for you to be a world leader, if he knew you were going to be killed. He knows it's going to happen... which means it's his plan. If I was SUPPOSED to be a world leader, something would prevent that man from killing me... otherwise, it would have never been in my book to be a world leader. That's why I ask about children being beaten... it is his "plan" for them. For what? To show the Earth how ugly humanity can be? So that the fucker who beats the kids can go to hell? If that's the case... just burn the fucker in a car wreck, and let the baby live a better life.

Good point of view, thanks for your post. I just still can't understand how suffering can be a part of any plan. And if we are all just roaming around with free will, then God doesn't have a plan... but it can't be both ways. If it is... it shows God is pretty heartless... and he sure isn't a good "father".
 
BBV:

This is an observation that I just realized. It sounds to me like you are really questioning the rationale that is fate. If Fate and destiny have a plan, is that God's plan? I may be off base here, but it seems to me that all your questions, no matter how many times you repeat them lol, all revolve around the same general theme. If there is a "plan" and it is God's "plan" then why are some destined for doom and some greatness.

If I am not off base, then what you need to question is if fate really does direct people's lives. And if so, why does fate bring such anguish upon some and not others. I have said this before, and I really do believe that God gives us the choices in life of where to go, aka free will. It is ultimately up to us to decide right from wrong. Now if you feel that God has the ultimate plan for our lives, then why is the blueprint so skewed for some. I don't know. Wish I did cause I would surely eliminate them from the big scheme of things. However, in every project there will be obstacles and problems that come about. It is how we deal with them and utilize them to get ahead the next time. (Can you tell I'm in the building industry? :D)

I believe in fate to an extent, however, I do not believe that fate is what ulitmately guides us through life. There may be a general guide for what our life should be like, but I don't feel that there is a line cut in stone that says how our lives are going to be.

In every road there are holes, in every hole there are stones, and in every stone there are minerals. Minerals are the very substance of life, so no matter how ugly they may look there is a beautiful and beneficial side to everything. It's how you choose to look at the stone, hole, or road that matters.

~p~
 
Yet another good post. Thanks.

It's not that you are off base... but you are at the same time.

I like how you worded what you said... it made sense.

And to me, if God does not have a plan, then I can't blame him for condemning his own children to suffer.

If it is in fact just Destiny... or that we control every aspect of our lives... and God just placed us on Earth to see how we'd do... then fine.

It's not just that I question his plan for some... I question why he is considered our father, and Christ as our brother... or what not... when he demands we believe in something we did not witness, did not hear, and have no proof of. You know Abraham Lincoln existed, as there were photographs, and things written by his own hand that still exist... even though none of us were alive to meet him.

Here's how I try to make sense of the whole thing:

See... when I had my children... I brought them into the world. I can't control what they do. I can't make them be good. I can hope, as I know God does, that they follow what is right, and do good things. There is no guarantee that it will happen. One of my boys may kill people... or worse. My daughter may die of a drug overdose after running away from home one day.

Now... I can't help them, unless they ask for it. I guess that's where praying comes in. And maybe I would give my children an answer that they wouldn't really understand, like God does.

And even if my children take a path where they suffer, it will hurt me greatly, but I cannot help them if they don't want help. I can't talk to them, if they won't listen.

That sorta makes sense.

On the other side:

I bring them into the world, and protect them with my life. NOTHING can harm them as long as I breathe. Granted, if someone takes them when I'm not there, I can't control that. However, if I was "all knowing" then I would know when and where it was happening, and be there to prevent it.

Now... my kids won't listen if they don't want to. But at least I am THERE for them. They can cry on my shoulder... and I speak to them IN ENGLISH... I will take them into my home any time, and support them, and feed them, and make sure they're okay.

God has so much more power than me... but chooses not to use it. For that, he cannot be called a father. Maybe a king who sends his troops off to die, but not a father.
 
Big Brother Val said:

Now... my kids won't listen if they don't want to. But at least I am THERE for them. They can cry on my shoulder... and I speak to them IN ENGLISH... I will take them into my home any time, and support them, and feed them, and make sure they're okay.

God has so much more power than me... but chooses not to use it. For that, he cannot be called a father. Maybe a king who sends his troops off to die, but not a father.

That right there is the answer to your question. God can do all He can, He can put all of life's choices in your face. However, if you are not ready to listen you won't. As with your children, you can teach them all about smoking, lifting, sex, drugs, murder, sports, love, and anything else in life; and if they aren't willing to listen are you going to call yourself a bad father?

For people without a religion, it is hard for you to understand the full meaning of the name, Father. For us it isn't about who protects who all the time or none of the time. It's not about who raised me, or who is alive and near me, or who shed's a tear for me. Father, is a term of (SHIT! I'm thinking of the word revere, but it just doesn't seem to fit. It goes along the same lines though, hope you can follow that.) and with that term is also the person, being, entity, thought that is our God. The Bible has many stories of which we learn lessons and of which we learn about life, and in each story there is Jesus the Son and God the Father. Father is really the name Jesus used to call his own Father, that all who came after adopted. Since we see ourselves as an image of God and God creating everyone in His own image, it is inherent that God would be considered our Father, our Salvation.

Like you say, God does not act like a father that you are. God may be no more than a thought in my mind, but like the post on existentialism says. What really is real? For those who don't believe in the Father and the religion, all of our terms of endearment and respect are equated to the meanings of today and not the meaning the religion uses. I say that because just as the word "bear" has several different meanings and uses in the English language, so do the words that traverse between religion and layman.

~p~
 
This post proves why God *chose* to allow evil into the world, why evil is nessecary for Gods pleasure, and why human choice is restricted to submission to Gods will - or rebell and face the consequences, however just or unjust those consequences may be.

The following post is consistent with Christian Judeo theology taken from the Bible.

God, according to Biblical scripture, is all powerful, ever present, and all knowing.

In the beginging, God created heaven and angels. One angel, Lucifer, was given incrediable powers unsurpassed by all the other angels. He was named "the morning star"- Gods pride and joy of all the angels.

According to scripture, Lucifer allowed pride to enter his heart, and became jealous of the reverence God recieved from all other angels. He wanted to receive praise and have angels follow him. So Lucifer tempted Gods angels to rebell against God and join him. Some 3,000,000 angels followed Lucifer.

Then God created man. He made them male and female. Adam and eve, the first man and women, eventually sucommbed to the temptation of Satan, formerly Lucifer, who took the form of a serpant and tempted eve to eat of the fruit from which God had specifically instructed not to eat.

And so God cursed Adam and eve, the Devil, and the future entire human race to varying degrees of suffering for the disobediance of 2 humans.

Present day.

Why did this happen?

Some Christians would say that humans are to blame for all suffering, specifcally Adam and Eve. They are wrong. Humans are partly to blame, and God is partly to blame.

Why God?

God is all knowing. God knows what your going to be doing 10 years from now, to the exact hour, to the exact second. God forsaw the actions of the entire human race from start to finish prior to creation. God also knew all the actions, consequences, and final outcome of His entire creation, both angels, and humanity, before he even breathed them into existence.

What does this mean?

God knew Lucifer would turn to evil. But God didnt stop him.

God knew Satan (formerlly Lucifer) would tempt Adam and Eve. But God didnt stop him.

God knew Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit and therefore indirectly condemn the entire human race to varying degrees of suffering - WW 1, WW2, the holocost, racism, starvation, pestilence. But God didnt stop them.

Why would God not stop this?

Because God wants one thing: A race of sentient beings, that choose to worship Him out of freewill.

What does that mean?

Free will can only exist when two polar opposites are created, good and evil. Satan, either real or metaphorical, is the supplementary side to humans innate psychological disposition to concieve good acts. Its the evil side, that gives humans a choice......to do good, or to do evil.

Evil, and all the accompanying atrocities committed in human history, were foreseen, chosen, and allowed by God so that He could have a race of people that would follow Him.

Some Christians would say this is nonsense. Those Christians cant follow logic, or dont know their theology.

Its interesting, Old Testament scripture suggests that God is actually sorry he created humanity because of humans inherent predisposition to committ evil acts:

"The Lord saw how great mans wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The Lord was greived that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." Genisis 6:5-6

If God truly is *all-knowing*, then he knew without a shadow of a doubt that mankind would be inherently evil, thus, God knew mankind would be evil, yet created them anyway.

Why would God create humans if it caused him pain, and caused humans pain??

Simple cost benefit anaylsis. The pleasure God derives from having a handfull, perhaps 1%< of total cummulative human population, that follow him, serve him, and worship him out of free will, outweighs the suffering, madness, torture, abuse, killings, and rapings endured throughout all of human history, in addition to the suffering of billions of souls that will be condemned to eternal torture forever.

Gods pleasure + 1%< of cummulative human population pleasure in heaven ----- outweighs -------- all human kind suffering on earth + eternal suffering and torture of billions of humans in hell, forever.


If God really cared about humans, why would he subject billions of humans to enternal torture in hell? Why couldnt God, just as Val said, create only those believers that he knew would follow him before creation, thus averting the needless suffering of humans on earth and those condemed to eternal torment:

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to become adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance to his good pleasure and will." Ephesisans 1:4-5

Simply because God feels billions of unbeleivers lives are expendable in enternal torture, and the unimaginable human suffering on this earth is unsurpassed by the pleasure God and the select few will have in heaven.

What can be done about this?

Nothing. All the yelling and screaming and namecalling at God will do nothing. Ive tried. God hasnt answered back yet. All you can do is save yourself. Try to be good and help others, and save yourself. However, there are indications that God really does care about humans: the life and suffering of Christ. Regardless, God, in a sense, stepped in it. He knew he'd be pounding his hand with the hammer of human suffering, yet did it anyway. For more suffering? No. For pleasure. His eventual pleasure, and his followers eventual pleasure, is the only logical conclusion. Gods selected punishment of enternal torment for unbelievers further supports his indifference towards people that reject him. The only logical conclusion is that current human existence was allowed to benefit God and "saved" Christians.

God isnt going to change the rules, and there will be tons of Christians who'll try to sell you their benevolent version of the Christian God, but these are the irrefutable facts:

1) God, being omiscent, knew beforehand, all the suffering that woud ever occur, on earth, and eternally in hell, prior to creation
2) God allowed it anyway so he could have a handfull of loyal followers who worship him out of free will.

And why dont alot of Christians understand this, or beleive this?

1) Any beleiver, looks for confirming evidence that supports their own beleifs. Seeking out confirming evidence is the underlying psychological mechanism that supports faith. Beleivers have a natural propensity to look for confirming evidence that God is good because of the univerisal human psychological phenomonon, cognitive dissoance. Cognitive dissoance theroy states that humans try to reduce intellectual inconsistences that cause cognitive discomfort created by holding two or more views that contridict each other....ex God has created and allowed evil, yet I beleive him to be good. Cognitive dissonance then guides beleviers to reject, refute, or ignore objective evidence that undermines their existing beleifs about God.
So Christians look for evidence that supports their beleif that God is good, thus reinforcing their faith, and reject evidence, however logical and objective, that refutes Gods goodness - which may undermine their faith. God has deemed faith as the most virtuious quality beleivers can cultivate, thus by not having faith, people arnt "good" Christians, according to God.

2) Questioning Gods nature, jepordizes a Christians ticket on the gravey train to heaven. Question God, you may not get to heaven, and more than that, you may burn forever in hell!!
 
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Damn Buddy... I couldn't read that post fast enough... What an awesome read. Thanks for posting that, great read.
--
 
thanks dude. It took me awhile to figure it out with all the Christian redrick in the Church these days.....

I dont like talking about it, because it makes me anxious, but it needs to be said and realised. I doubt there is any Christian, ever, that could refute what i wrote. Not because its mine, but because its the truth; its consistent with scripture, Gods will, and human psychology.
 
as a disclaimer.....I can only take that side when Im mad at God and suffering.

Im not suggesting anyone take that knowledge and say to hell with God. Not because what I wrote is not true, but because I fear God .
 
Hey buddy, I have to ask you this. Are you Christian and use Christian as in the religion Christian, or are you of another faith and use Christian to stand for Catholocism as well?

There are some points I don't agree with you on, but I know from experience that the Christians in West Michigan are on that same track 110%.

~p~
 
Hey buddy28.........nice copy and paste job you did there! I can't believe you would take credit for that!

j/k man ;)


That has to be one of the best post I have read yet! I wish I was able to write words that flowed like that! If you read my posts on this thread, I think you will find that they line up pretty good with what you said.

I wrote it first so stop copy my work!!!!!! (j/k again! :D)

Sorry, just trying to keep it lighthearted!

In no way would I refute what you posted! Thanks for sharing that work of art!
 
unOwho -

Im a Christian. Not a good one, but I beleive in Christ. Im not Catholic. Early in my faith, I was introduced to Pentacostalism/fundamentalism. I had a personal experience with Christ, so i could never truthfully say, he doesnt exist.

Im not a big fan of Catholicism because they emphasise the preist as intercessor, rather than Christ. But as youve read, Ive got problems with God, so I dont know what Christian sect I fall in.

HumorMe-

thanks for the compliments man. I appreciate it. Actually, your posts and a couple other peoples motivated me to write what I did.
 
strongchick said:
religion. useful for controlling the masses for political ends.

When I die, everything will go black. Nothing more.

I'm sorry you feel like that! Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
 
to paraphrase Arthur C Clarke again, "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the nonexistence of Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now"

I move for a no-confidence vote in God, and the election of a new Supreme Deity.
Who seconds the motion?
 
uNOwho... I appreciate you writing in a language I can understand. And what you write has a lot of relevance. As this thread continues, there are many things pointed out to me, by you guys, and even in my own mind, that I didn't notice before. Some of it makes a lot of sense to me, some of it does not. I'm glad you have taken the time to write what you have.

That post made a lot of sense to me.

Buddy28.... WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM!? Very nice. As Crazier said... I was totally into that post... and was actually disappointed when it ended. I think you pointed out many good things, along the lines of what the guys are saying here.

It angers me in a way, because that's what I've always understood. God knows what's going to happen to all of us... when it's going to happen... and why. Such as the case when my brother died. He died 10 feet in front of me, screaming out my name... did I blame God?

No.

I blamed myself. I still do. He drowned. And I didn't get to him to help him when he needed me. So I feel as if I might as well have put my foot on his head and held him under.

That's another story. My point is that I didn't blame God for that. In reality, there was no one holding him under. No one was intentionally trying to kill him. It was just life taking an unexpected turn, and his life ending.

Someone smashing in their children's ribs, or killing them by laying A FUCKING SPACE-HEATER DOWN ON THE CHILD... now THAT to me is why I question God.

He knew the guy was going to literally cook his child. That the child would suffer in unimaginable pain... then die. And God not only knew it would happen, but allowed it.

Why?

If he knows the guy will do it... why have it happen at all?

He knows who will follow him, and who will not. He knows what we will all do, so there isn't really any free will. It's all a plan... we all will follow the plan, be it good or evil, and that's it.

A child, at this very second, is in pain, and afraid, because she was taken from her home... and she will be dead soon. AT THIS VERY MOMENT! If the Pope himself prayed for her, would it change?

No.

Why?

Because it's in the plan for that little girl to go through what she is, because the man is evil, and chose to do evil to her. But God thinks that's okay, because he wants his followers.

And a God who will allow that to happen, even though he knows it's going to, proves he doesn't care about the suffering. He doesn't care how many are harmed...

Why?

Because he wants his followers. He wants us to believe in a book written a very long time ago... with no real basis for our beliefs.

If our civiliation is wiped out, and someone a million years from now, when the life cycle repeats, finds a copy of a Stephen King novel that somehow survived after being buried for all those years... will they interperet the book, and call it their gospel?

How can God just expect us to believe?

You believe what you are taught.

As children we believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny. Why? Because our PARENTS tell us they are real.

Why?

If Santa isn't real, why keep up the charade? What's the point?

I truly don't know. I just know it brings my children joy. They love the Santa thing.

Then they realize that there isn't a Santa out there. There isn't a man in a red suit who loves children the world over, and brings them toys with flying reindeer. They were misled. They were lied to.

But if they aren't raised in church... and don't believe in all that stuff... then they can go to hell, because they don't believe... yet they were never taught... and when they have a mind of their own, they read the bible and it sounds like a bunch of shit. Guys living to be more than 900 years old... building a giant boat to take 2 of every animal.... sorry... but that's just too much to believe.

So we go to hell because we don't believe. Yet he gives us nothing to believe in.

What you wrote kicks total ass. And I appreciate you taking the time. And it sort of backs up what I say... the man is not a father. There isn't a loving father on Earth who would put his children through what God puts his kids through, just to see if they'll praise him.

That isn't love. That's arrogance. And arrogance is evil. So I don't know what to make of it.

Thanks again. That was a fantastic post... I think I'll go read it again.

Island Son... I don't know if I'd go that far. I know there is a higher power... a GOD of some sort. I don't know what he is, or who he is... but I sure as hell don't think he's a "father".
 
Yeah, I'd reccommend reading the deamon haunted world by Carl Sagan or any of his books for that matter. I have read every one of his books and have learned lots.
 
Big Brother Val -

I totally understand what ur saying. Life is a funny thing. I hope God is good, or else what do we have to look forward too? We will see.
 
BBVal; sorry but i don't think you'll find a logically (note the word) satisfying answer.
If we wait for God, there will never be peace and happiness on Earth, or anywhere else we spread to. Why not? Because it's not here now. If a Supreme omnipotent being wanted it, we'd all be born with the knowledge of a million centuries, and hardwired to do the right thing. Either peace is not wanted or not possible.
If it's not possible, then there's either God is different from what we think (more of a demigod with limited powers) or there is none. Maybe a superintelligent presence who could predict a few years into the future, and bring the smackdown on some people who didn't own nukes yet. I could write a convincing sci-fi about it.

If as a true God, master of all time and space, I needed the adoration of a few billion schizoid people on one piddly planet then that couldn't be the legendary God, could it? And if there is,
we're just pets. If I swing back that way, I'll show the Big Being the proper respect, ask for a favor or two, get my mental waves in tune or whatever, but not spend my life bootlicking.

And if "God" created "Satan", there must be evil in him too.
 
there was a fascinating piece in the NYT book review about God last Sunday. I'm going to paste it rather than just posting the link since the Times stuff is free only for a limited time. I*'ll paste in the link below, if you want to read it online. I have read the older book and rank it with Karen Armstrong's work.

_____________________

December 23, 2001

Jack Miles's 'Christ': Nobody's Perfect
By MICHAEL WOOD



THE wrath of God and the love of God are familiar notions, however infrequent or even nonexistent our encounters with them. But what about God's anxiety or God's distress? Could God change his mind? Could he repent? Could he atone? Could he get tired? Could he fail, and learn from his failures? He has all these experiences in Jack Miles's two provocative and deeply engaging books: the Pulitzer Prize-winning ''God: A Biography,'' published in 1995, and now ''Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God.''

The very titles of these books are balancing acts, evocations of paradox and mischief. Hasn't God's biography already been written, if a biography is what he has? And isn't the Christ of Christian believers usually thought of as far more than a crisis in God's life? Is the historical Jesus a part of God's life at all if he is a fabulously charismatic but entirely human being? But Miles knows exactly what he is doing. He is treating the Bible as a great work of art -- no more, no less. His metaphor, in the second book, is that of looking at the Bible rather than through it, as if it were a stained-glass window. ''Why,'' he asks, ''may the Gospels not be read as the religiously motivated, artistically executed texts that an unforced reading would suggest them to be?''

The phrase about the unforced reading is rather tendentious, since Miles can do a bit of forcing when he feels like it, but the question is a good one. To treat the Bible as literature -- that is, as a powerful collection of songs, stories, poems, legends, fables and proverbs as well as a great deal of history and religious instruction -- in no way requires us to deny its importance for historians and philosophers and for two world religions.

''We are all, in a way, immigrants from the past,'' Miles writes in ''God: A Biography,'' and the attraction of a close study of the Bible is that it will show many people their own faces in the faces of apparent strangers. The strangest of these, in the Hebrew Bible, is God himself -- in Miles's view, a complex and contradictory character who learns who he is only through his interactions with humans. ''There are no 'adventures of God,' '' Miles writes in the earlier book. ''His only way of pursuing an interest in himself is through mankind.''

God is not just the sum of our adventures, but he is, in the text seen as literature, the sum of what we have tried to make of him. It is for this reason that his hopes and fears are ours. He is, as Miles puts it, ''the divided original whose divided image we remain. His is the restless breathing we still hear in our sleep.'' It is for the same reason, I take it, that Miles can slyly acknowledge God, alphabetically listed between friends whose names begin with an F and a G, as among those who ''helped'' him with the book of that title.

Toward the end of the Hebrew Bible, God has gone silent, and the children of Israel have long been in exile, as if their forefathers had never been brought out of Egypt. This situation, Miles argues, must place God in a condition of distress, even if -- or just because -- it is his own doing. Evoking this condition in ''God: A Biography,'' Miles comes across, more than once, the sub-title of his next book: ''a crisis in the life of God.'' As represented in the New Testament, God resolves the crisis by taking human form as his own son and allowing the Romans to crucify him.

How is this a resolution? In Christian doctrine, God sacrifices himself for the sins of humankind and replaces his old covenant of mercy and justice toward a chosen people with a new covenant of love toward those who choose to worship him. ''For God so loved the world,'' we read in the King James Version of the Gospel of St. John, ''that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'' He will, in Miles's terms, ''begin a new creation that will correct the old,'' and all his promises of long-delayed worldly success will be converted into metaphors of ultimate spiritual triumph. The multiple enemies of ancient Israel become the single enemy of us all: Satan, the adversary whom God, through Cain, once allowed to invent murder.

But ''against the usual Christian spiritualization of the Old Testament,'' Miles proposes ''a relative materialization of the New Testament, in which God's real-world, land-and-wealth-and-offspring promises to the Jews are expected to remain on his mind.'' In this interpretation, God is a sleeping pragmatist who wakes one day to realize that the old promise won't work, who must therefore break it and make a new one. The not-yet Christian God, Miles suggests, ''needs a way to fail'' and makes a ''brilliant adjustment of the idea of covenant,'' deciding to accept his own guilt for what has happened since creation and to die for his people rather than scatter their human enemies once again.

''A priest who is his own sacrificial lamb, a lamb who is his own sacrificing priest, a father who is his own son, an Isaac who is his own Abraham, with the dagger in his own hand -- it is by this fusion of identities that the crisis in the life of God is resolved.'' God, Miles explains, ''found a way to turn his defeat into a victory, but the defeat came first.'' He ''had to learn how to win by losing.''

This proposition sounds far-fetched until you think of the historical worldly success of Christianity, although this no doubt rests on some astute political practice as well as on preaching. But the scandalous brilliance of the Christian covenant becomes clearer if you think of its consequences. You can win by losing, but only if you manage to invert the meaning of the terms. Christ -- either the person himself or those who wrote his story or a combination of both -- turned the very ideas of life and death upside down. He died, it seems, and the world went on living.

The Christian assertion is exactly the reverse: the world is dead and only Christ and those who believe in him are truly alive. When Christians take communion, they are said, in St. Paul's extraordinary words, to ''show the Lord's death till he come'' -- that is, they insist ritually on an apparent death in the past in order to celebrate the end of death itself in the future. The miracle is that anyone would believe this -- much less, within barely three centuries, most of the Roman Empire, including the emperor himself.

This is a spectacular story, and Miles tells it very well. However, two doubts grew on me as I read this pair of remarkable books. First, the story is so spectacular -- nothing less than a repudiation of what we might think of as the ordinary, providential relation of religion and history -- that I wonder whether it can be enough to say that God changed his mind, even under tremendous pressure. ''It has been the thesis of this book that so problematic a turn in the life of God . . . can only be explained by supposing a prior problem for which this enormity may seem the resolution.'' But can it be explained at all? And wouldn't any attempted explanation have to be theological, whatever it called itself?

What Miles defines as a literary reading of the Bible turns out to be an elaborately argued guess about what God might have been thinking and feeling if he had been a human being. It is true that God is said to have created us in his own image, ''an unmistakable invitation,'' Miles says, ''to make some sense of God in human terms.'' This is certainly an invitation to see God as not entirely inaccessible to the human mind and heart, but is it an invitation to reduce him to our psychology? Can we speak plausibly, as Miles seeks to, of ''the deep psychological peculiarity, the uncanniness, the elusive weirdness of the Lord God'' or the collection of ''personality profiles'' that compose him? Doesn't such language tilt us toward the dizzying anachronistic jokes of Woody Allen or Mel Brooks?

The second doubt has to do with Miles's exclusive interest in God as a character -- and indeed his interest in character to the exclusion of almost everything else. For Miles, literary criticism is primarily the psychological understanding of the real or imaginary people in a text. There's nothing wrong with that, but to promote character at the expense of language, imagery, motif, structure, voice, tone, point of view, plot, genre, verse form, imputed intention, audience response and much else is to offer us a very restricted view of what literary study can do.

It is true (or can be true) that, as Miles says, ''even at moments when literary intent is questionable, literary effect is undeniable.'' But the so-called death of the author doesn't mean there are no writers, only that writers and readers need to collaborate, that there can be several Shakespeares and not just the one our professor dogmatically insisted upon. Of course, Miles knows this, and at times says so clearly. ''What the radical reversal in the divine identity implied by the pacifist preaching of Jesus suggests is that a Jewish writer of powerful imagination projected this crisis of faith into the mind of God, transforming it into a crisis of conscience.'' But mainly Miles treats the product of this and other Jewish imaginations as a free-standing character, complicated and divided but finally autonomous, like a David Copperfield who has gotten rid of Dickens.

Federico Fellini once said that when he was a child he thought movies were made up by their actors; it didn't occur to him that there were writers and directors. Miles goes one step farther and ascribes all the motions of his book to its chief character. This is a sweeping critical gesture, and it makes for exciting reading. But the final effect is to mystify, to turn back into fable, what Miles is otherwise so finely unraveling. It is to evoke the amazing triumphs of God's writers and readers, but then award them to their own creature, which is entirely appropriate for a religious reading if you believe God inspired the writers and the readers in the first place. But if we subtract Shakespeare (whoever we think he is) from ''King Lear,'' we don't have a play, let alone a masterpiece. We just have a wild old man.


Michael Wood teaches English and comparative literature at Princeton University. His most recent book is ''Children of Silence: On Contemporary Fiction.''


Click here to go to the NYT site.
 
Upon this theological instinct I make war: I find the tracks of it everywhere. [/URL] Whoever has theological blood in his veins is shifty and dishonourable in all things. The pathetic thing that grows out of this condition is called faith: in other words, closing one's eyes upon oneself once and for all, to avoid suffering the sight of incurable falsehood. People erect a concept of morality, of virtue, of holiness upon this false view of all things; they ground good conscience upon faulty vision; they argue that no other sort of vision has value any more, once they have made theirs sacrosanct with the names of "God," "salvation" and "eternity." I unearth this theological instinct in all directions: it is the most widespread and the most subterranean form of falsehood to be found on earth. Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth. -nietzsche
http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/anti.htm
 
Hey Big bro, I assume you are searching for answers supported by Christians, then you can go here to see them:

http://www.christiananswers.net

or

http://www.christiananswers.net/directry.html

Look around, ask yourself questions, form your own opinion. Since I am a science-oriented person; I am extremely skeptical about everything, but I make close observations and generalisations of people that do not love, or claim to be atheist, and people that do, and there is one thing I do not deny it is the existance and of God, and his help when I asked him.
 
Hey Val,

Good post. Great thread.

I wanted to give you some input from my perspective. I hope you will read it with an open mind and consider it. I think it's important to acknowledge that all of us here come to moral issues from our own particular paradigm or point of view. This means that it's difficult to discuss these things because we will tend to interpret every statement based on our predetermined belief system. I think if we acknowledge that, we can have better discourse.

So, here are some thoughts...

The Question: "If God is loving, why do bad things happen to people?"

This, of course, is one of the great questions. It's a powerful question. And, like you, many people (including myself) have struggled with it. According to a recent PBS documentary, Charles Darwin asked the same question after the untimely death of his daughter. A lack of a clear answer, led him to reject the last shreds of his faith in God. Like Darwin, many people ultimately reject the existence of God because they can't understand how God can allow terrible things to happen to innocent children.

The God of Evolution:

If you assume, however, that there is no God, then you are faced with the question of how people came to exist. Many people today believe that we are the product of evolution. They believe that people are the result of millions of years of small instances of random chance and coincidence that ultimately led to the development of the universe, earth, plants, animals and the human race. The evolutionary paradigm is that matter, plus time, plus random chance, equals complexity.

Evolution requires death and suffering. Survival of the fittest is the rule. In evolutionary theory, only the stronger creatures perpetuate and the weaker creatures die. In fact, death is the inherent process through which evolution could occur. Millions of years of death and mutation until you get people.

If this is true, then death and suffering are a normal part of life, because they are the process through which all creatures evolve. As humans, we are merely the product of some genetic fluke that allowed us to evolve brain receptors that enable us to think about complex things like, “Why is there death and suffering?” Ultimately, we are little more than protoplasm that will eventually be dirt someday.

If evolution is true, then there would be no need for an absolute morality. All moral thought would merely be the result of random mutations. If survival of the fittest is the rule, then we should do whatever we want as long as it serves us. After all, life is just a contest in which the strongest monkey wins. And every monkey will ultimately inherit the same thing – death.

Death and suffering are just part of life in the non-God, evolutionary paradigm. There is no meaning in suffering – it just is.

The Creator God:

If you reject the nihilistic“people are just the result of random chance and coincidence” philosophy, you are faced with the question of what force created the universe and gave life to people.

Again, depending on your worldview, here is a point at which you have to try to look at things from a different perspective. As a Christian, I believe that the entire meaning of suffering is contained in the Bible. Of course, since no one has seen our Heavenly Father, this is a matter of faith. But it is also a matter of faith to believe that the universe and everything in it exploded from nothing at some point millions of years ago. After all, no one has seen that either. In fact, everyone functions on faith – it’s just a matter of the object of that faith.

The Bible says that God created the first couple on the Earth (Adam and Eve) to have a special relationship with Him. However, they rejected God's only voiced command in order to "become like God." Since God is the creator, the giver of life, it is only logical that any attempt by the "created" to live life apart from God, would result in the opposite of life - which is death. Adam and Eve tried to live life apart from God, and all of their descendants have been doing the same thing ever since. Thus, death, destruction, sickness and tragedy are the logical result of an entire planet of people who try to live their lives apart from their creator.

Sure, children are innocent in a sense. But I’m sure you’ve noticed that you have to teach them to be good. They are generally bent toward selfishness. Without parental and societal intervention, a child lacks a natural understanding of morality. According to the Bible, ever since Adam and Eve, everyone is born with this desire to separate themselves from the laws of God - a desire to focus on self and “become like God” by establishing our own rules of conduct and behavior. (Certainly, I’ve found that to be true in my own life.)

Why Bad Things Happen (according to the Bible):

I believe that the Bible has an incredibly plausible explanation of why bad things happen to people. It says that bad things happen because it is the natural consequence of the creation rejecting the creator. The ultimate result of sin in a fallen world is death and destruction. Ultimately, we will all die in one way or another. And our creator provides us with the ability to think about these higher things. (To me, this is far more logical than saying that death and destruction are just a part of the whole evolutionary process and there is no meaning in it whatsoever.)

In fact, Jesus provides an answer to the question "How could God let something like this happen?" in the Bible (Luke 13.) Jesus is asked about a tragic event, where some people were killed in a horrible way. The questioners want to know why they died that way. Jesus’ answer is simply that unless we come to Him, we will all also die. He then asks about what appears to be a tragic accident where a tower has collapsed, killing some people. Again, He offers no reason for the death and tragedy, He simply states that unless we turn from our path of separation from God (repent) and come to Him, we will also perish.

It appears that bad things are a reminder of the fact that we need to turn back to God.

The Good News:

According to the Bible, although pain and suffering are ingrained in the nature of the creation at this point, there is still good news.

The good news is that we can all have eternal life by acknowledging our creator, Jesus Christ, who provided atonement for our rejection of Him. Because God is holy and righteous, He cannot dwell with us while we are still imperfect and selfish. In fact, we could never measure up to the perfect standards of God. However, because He is also loving, He provided Christ to die in our place, effectively paying the price for our separation from Him.

There is a story of a great king who was very righteous. Because he was righteous, he would punish those subjects who stole from others. But the king was also loving, and he loved his daughter deeply above all else. He commanded his subjects to love their children and take care of them. One day, the king’s daughter was caught stealing, breaking the law of the king. The punishment, 40 lashes of the whip, would surely kill the child. And the entire kingdom waited anxiously to find out how the king would reconcile his righteousness with his love. Ultimately, the day for punishment came. The massive king sentenced the daughter to 40 lashes for breaking the law. His righteousness was fulfilled. The soldiers positioned the daughter to be whipped when, suddenly, the massive king (obviously a bodybuilder) rose from his throne and removed his shirt. He walked down to his daughter and covered her body with his own massive body and told the soldiers to commence punishment. In this way, he took his daughter’s punishment upon himself, and both his love and his righteousness were fulfilled. His daughter saw this great love and was compelled to obey the laws of her father from that day on.

This is how the Bible says our God has dealt with us.

If we acknowledge the righteousness of Christ as our creator and the love of Christ as our redeemer, we will be ultimately restored to the original creation – an eternal life without pain and suffering.



I’ve been thinking about you a lot Val. Especially in regard to your post on that other thread. You’re in my prayers. I hope you will consider this, and let me know your thoughts, questions and concerns.
 
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