Who here has actually juiced and then gone back to prohormones?

[Fortes]

Machine, Pat -

As far as potency/cost/legality goes, I just want to throw in an outlier.

1-Test. it's 20 grams for around 100 bucks from Kilosports, and though their purity has been dubious in the past, they now guarantee a 98% assay. PA, as soon as you start selling it through LPJ, I'm gonna stock up, mark my words.

Assuming a 20% (low) rate of delivery in a homebrew transdermal formulation (IPM & alcohol, or DMSO) you have 4 grams of functional androgen which is quite similar to tren for all intensive purposes for 100 bucks, which is CHEAP.

AND YET, it is still conceivable that one could LEGALLY buy the Ester version and inject it EOD like Tren (75 mg). If the Ester worked like it should, guess what?

That's 38 weeks of androgen. You really can't beat that . . . no matter who your mom is. But again, that is assuming that the Ester works. Animal kits or finakits would work fine presumably for conversion, so maybe 150-200 extra bucks for all the kits you'd need. So, for 300 bucks, you'd get a 38 week supply of high quality shit. Compare to the nandrolone at 100 bucks for 3 grams prepped and injectable. Here you're spending 300 bucks for 20 grams of 1-test, about 15.00 per gram prepped and injectable. For the nandrolone you're spending 33.3 bucks per gram, so that's double cost. Weekly dosages are probably going to be comparable with these two drugs.

But, with the nandrolone you are paying insurance for a truly legit pharmaceutical, whereas with the 1-test ester you're taking somewhat more of a chance in terms of injectibility. And 1-test probably burns LIKE HELL when injected.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

No, it's good for any oral, PH, vitamin, whatever.

grapefruit juice is not good for all drugs - only drugs that are metabolized chiefly by a specific class of enzymes. In the case of most steroids, this class of enzymes is not involved in the major deactivation pathways [/B][/QUOTE]

Your right, my bad -- oversimplification. It specifically effects CYP3A4. MANY, but not all, drugs are broken down by CYP3A4. Grapefruit juice, probably via naringin, appears to block the activity of CYP3A4 to break down these drugs. In any case, it would seem to be a beneficial addition to a PH stack.

And there really is no concensus that I can find that specifically rules out "most" anabolics. I see a lot of "possible" interactions -- which is not a "negative" and (to me) means that one should probably error on the side of caution.

 

[pa1ad]

Machine, Pat -

As far as potency/cost/legality goes, I just want to throw in an outlier.

1-Test. it's 20 grams for around 100 bucks from Kilosports, and though their purity has been dubious in the past, they now guarantee a 98% assay. PA, as soon as you start selling it through LPJ, I'm gonna stock up, mark my words.

Assuming a 20% (low) rate of delivery in a homebrew transdermal formulation (IPM & alcohol, or DMSO) you have 4 grams of functional androgen which is quite similar to tren for all intensive purposes for 100 bucks, which is CHEAP.

AND YET, it is still conceivable that one could LEGALLY buy the Ester version and inject it EOD like Tren (75 mg). If the Ester worked like it should, guess what?

That's 38 weeks of androgen. You really can't beat that . . . no matter who your mom is. But again, that is assuming that the Ester works. Animal kits or finakits would work fine presumably for conversion, so maybe 150-200 extra bucks for all the kits you'd need. So, for 300 bucks, you'd get a 38 week supply of high quality shit. Compare to the nandrolone at 100 bucks for 3 grams prepped and injectable. Here you're spending 300 bucks for 20 grams of 1-test, about 15.00 per gram prepped and injectable. For the nandrolone you're spending 33.3 bucks per gram, so that's double cost. Weekly dosages are probably going to be comparable with these two drugs.

But, with the nandrolone you are paying insurance for a truly legit pharmaceutical, whereas with the 1-test ester you're taking somewhat more of a chance in terms of injectibility. And 1-test probably burns LIKE HELL when injected.

Esterifying the 1-test is not gonna make it burn any less either

 

[THeMaCHinE]

We are talking about two different things. I am talking about the economics of the products themselves (irregardless of potency). You can by 3000mgs of 1-AD for about $40 as compared to your 3000mg of nandrolone for $100. Obviously prohormones are cheaper than steroids PER GRAM

In the case of prohormones you sacrifice potency for legality. That is the advantage of prohormones. There is no need to constantly remind everyone that prohormones are not as potent as anabolic steroids. We all know that already

Dude, I think we're butting heads over nothing. In one of my posts I said, yeah, it's funny how a cycle of roids is cheaper and more effective than a cycle of PH. You replied by saying that you thought I was saying supplement companies were ripping people off. I replied by saying no, it costs more to make some products than others -- and that from an EFFICACY standpoint, roids are stronger, therefore you have to ingest more PH to get similar(?) effects -- negating any cost savings PHs might have on mg per mg basis.

Pat, I have a lot of respect for what you and some of the other guys are doing -- I think you misjudged the connotation of my original comments. Hell, I wouldn't even be here if I were'nt open minded to trying PH again, based on the good things I've heard about them. I'm just trying to work out some of the issues (roadblocks) I personally have about PH.

As you mentioned, legal is the key reason -- and a damn good reason at that...

So, unless you just want to argue (which I have no interest in -- and no, I'm not saying you do), could you maybe answer a few of the PH-related questions I have asked?

A) You made a comparison between 600 mgs/day of 1AD and 60 mgs/day of dianabol -- were you doing this just for cost illustrative purposes, or were you implying that 600 mgs of 1AD is roughly similar in effect to 60 mgs of dbol?

B) Can you comment on the need for nolva/clomid therapy post-cyle? And Liquidex on-cycle? Will users retain more gains, less sides, etc?

C) Would you go through the short list of effective PHs and their half-lives when ingested?

I do value your view, and I don't think we are too far apart on things. I'm here to learn about PH products, not get in a pissing match over supplements vs. roids, who is ripping who off, etc...

peace?!?

 

[THeMaCHinE]

I am "natural" now, including post cycle aids, so I:

-Only did 2 week cycles to minimize HPTA suppression (I think 1-test may have slightly suppressed it)
-Didn't use any anti-e's and kept most of my gains (90-95%)
-gained about 5lbs on 4ad
-gained a few more pounds on 1-test

I had posted some pretty long threads on both my 4AD and 1-test cycles. I think they both can increase LBM, 4AD just adds more water. I don't know so much about 4AD, but 1-test would definitely shut you down if you used it for any length of time, and would DEFINITELY need some clomid and arimidex, vitex alone won't cut it.

Good stuff, sounds like good results too. I've been reading through the archives about this stuff, so I may have ran across your thread already. Thanks for the info.

 

[pa1ad]

grapefruit juice is not good for all drugs - only drugs that are metabolized chiefly by a specific class of enzymes. In the case of most steroids, this class of enzymes is not involved in the major deactivation pathways

Your right, my bad -- oversimplification. It specifically effects CYP3A4. MANY, but not all, drugs are broken down by CYP3A4. Grapefruit juice, probably via naringin, appears to block the activity of CYP3A4 to break down these drugs. In any case, it would seem to be a beneficial addition to a PH stack.

And there really is no concensus that I can find that specifically rules out "most" anabolics. I see a lot of "possible" interactions -- which is not a "negative" and (to me) means that one should probably error on the side of caution. [/B][/QUOTE]


androgens are primarily deactivated by oxido reductases, which are not in this class of enzymes.

 

[pa1ad]

A) You made a comparison between 600 mgs/day of 1AD and 60 mgs/day of dianabol -- were you doing this just for cost illustrative purposes, or were you implying that 600 mgs of 1AD is roughly similar in effect to 60 mgs of dbol?

B) Can you comment on the need for nolva/clomid therapy post-cyle? And Liquidex on-cycle? Will users retain more gains, less sides, etc?

C) Would you go through the short list of effective PHs and their half-lives when ingested?

I made the comparison in A) for cost illustrative purposed primarily. I am not prepared to make any efficacy comparisons between 1-AD and dbol, nor would I dare do that publically anyway.

For 1-AD it is not useful to use anti-estrogens during the cycle. It may be wise to use these post cycle however, as estrogen will probably rebound when you stop the 1-AD.

I do not know what the half lives of the various prohormones are. I would guess that 1-AD and boldione have longer half lives than other andros though because these are resistant to metabolism somewhat

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Machine, Pat -

As far as potency/cost/legality goes, I just want to throw in an outlier.

1-Test. it's 20 grams for around 100 bucks from Kilosports, and though their purity has been dubious in the past, they now guarantee a 98% assay. PA, as soon as you start selling it through LPJ, I'm gonna stock up, mark my words.

Assuming a 20% (low) rate of delivery in a homebrew transdermal formulation (IPM & alcohol, or DMSO) you have 4 grams of functional androgen which is quite similar to tren for all intensive purposes for 100 bucks, which is CHEAP.

AND YET, it is still conceivable that one could LEGALLY buy the Ester version and inject it EOD like Tren (75 mg). If the Ester worked like it should, guess what?

That's 38 weeks of androgen. You really can't beat that . . . no matter who your mom is. But again, that is assuming that the Ester works. Animal kits or finakits would work fine presumably for conversion, so maybe 150-200 extra bucks for all the kits you'd need. So, for 300 bucks, you'd get a 38 week supply of high quality shit. Compare to the nandrolone at 100 bucks for 3 grams prepped and injectable. Here you're spending 300 bucks for 20 grams of 1-test, about 15.00 per gram prepped and injectable. For the nandrolone you're spending 33.3 bucks per gram, so that's double cost. Weekly dosages are probably going to be comparable with these two drugs.

But, with the nandrolone you are paying insurance for a truly legit pharmaceutical, whereas with the 1-test ester you're taking somewhat more of a chance in terms of injectibility. And 1-test probably burns LIKE HELL when injected.

Granted, if you're into homebrews, you could buy synovex (cattle implants) and convert 16-18 grams of test (no ester) for under $200. I'm a little skeptical of the estradiol-removal process, but a lot of guys like it. But again, you get into the whole legality issue... (is it legal to convert PHs into injectables?)

Kit formulations make me nervous in general, but let me know how that goes for you.

The burning could be cellular necrosis from high BA content?? If you make the concentration at a lower mg/ml, you may be able to lighten up the sting. You may try mixing the shot with some B-12 for the same reason.

 

[ISN_Man]

A ways back I made up a home brew of injectable 19-Nordiol, that yielded roughly 100mg/cc and made a total of 45-49cc, which everything included (pins too) cost be under $140. I was on it for 1 1/2 weeks, maybe 2 tops and I just had to stop. Pain was way to much for me and I could barely walk. And it's funny, because I would of had to do ED injections and I was like screw it. I experienced temp. fluctuations (which I know can be a sign of changing hormone levels) and other flu like symptoms. So from my experience, I would advise against it, unless you're already accustomed to ED injections with a water-based steriod.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

androgens are primarily deactivated by oxido reductases, which are not in this class of enzymes.

Now we're speaking specifically of oral steroids right? You're saying that there's no deactivation at all by CYP3A4 or P450 enzymes in oral AS?