Who here has actually juiced and then gone back to prohormones?

[THeMaCHinE]

Quercitin, naringin, naringenin, and 6 prime,7prime-dihydroxybergamottin have been studied for CYP3A inhibition without conclusively determining which component is responsible for the interaction. Initial research focused on the ability of a component to bind to and inhibit CYP3A4 in the gastrointestinal lumen. A subsequent report has determined that this is actually a post transciptional regulatory event, resulting in decreased amount of CYP3A4 in the GI mucosa.

We can't even effectively discuss the grapefruit issue because scientists haven't actually pinned down the exact mechanism by which the juice increases absorption. CYP3A4 is just one issue.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

For 1-AD it is not useful to use anti-estrogens during the cycle. It may be wise to use these post cycle however, as estrogen will probably rebound when you stop the 1-AD.

Cool, good to know -- do you feel there's any natural supplements out there that could handle the estrogen? Or would it be better to go with nolva/clomid? As an aside, have you ever heard of anybody using ldex when coming off?


I do not know what the half lives of the various prohormones are. I would guess that 1-AD and boldione have longer half lives than other andros though because these are resistant to metabolism somewhat

You think it would be in the 2-3 hour range, possibly 4? Or would one just be guessing? Not knowing the half-life, I wonder if it would be best for one just to pop micro-amounts throughout the day? Say, 6x dosing...

 

[cool_sub]

Quote:

For 1-AD it is not useful to use anti-estrogens during the cycle. It may be wise to use these post cycle however, as estrogen will probably rebound when you stop the 1-AD.

Cool, good to know -- do you feel there's any natural supplements out there that could handle the estrogen? Or would it be better to go with nolva/clomid? As an aside, have you ever heard of anybody using ldex when coming off?


End Quote:

It is not easy for me to be able to get hold of things like Clomid and Nolva, so I would be very interested in what legal anti-e's you think might be powerful enough to handle the rebound.

Cheers.

 

[pa1ad]

Now we're speaking specifically of oral steroids right? You're saying that there's no deactivation at all by CYP3A4 or P450 enzymes in oral AS?

In the case of some of the 17alpha-alkylated steroids (i.e. oxandrolone) hydroxylations are major deactivation pathways and these reactions I believe are regulated by P450 enzymes. So grapefruit might potentiate these somewhat

In the case of other steroids (i.e. testosterone and prohormones) however hydroxylations are very minor pathways of deactivation

 

[pa1ad]

You think it would be in the 2-3 hour range, possibly 4? Or would one just be guessing? Not knowing the half-life, I wonder if it would be best for one just to pop micro-amounts throughout the day? Say, 6x dosing...

In response to your first question, I am about to introduce a very effective anti-estrogen supplement that will stimulate your testosterone production. It contains a novel compound (enzyme inhibitor).

Also, what is Idex?

I think 3 times a day dosing is probably best. If you take too little at a time the liver can deactivate the dose too easily. OTOH If you take doses too infrequently then your levels will not be even enough throughout the day. I believe 3 times a day is a good compromise for 1-AD

 

[pa1ad]

Quote:

For 1-AD it is not useful to use anti-estrogens during the cycle. It may be wise to use these post cycle however, as estrogen will probably rebound when you stop the 1-AD.

Cool, good to know -- do you feel there's any natural supplements out there that could handle the estrogen? Or would it be better to go with nolva/clomid? As an aside, have you ever heard of anybody using ldex when coming off?


End Quote:

It is not easy for me to be able to get hold of things like Clomid and Nolva, so I would be very interested in what legal anti-e's you think might be powerful enough to handle the rebound.

Cheers.

My supplement will be called Aromastat. It will be exactly what you are looking for

 

[THeMaCHinE]

In the case of some of the 17alpha-alkylated steroids (i.e. oxandrolone) hydroxylations are major deactivation pathways and these reactions I believe are regulated by P450 enzymes. So grapefruit might potentiate these somewhat

In the case of other steroids (i.e. testosterone and prohormones) however hydroxylations are very minor pathways of deactivation

17aas -- oxandrolone, stanzalol, dianabol, anadrol -- the most commonly taken orals. Hence, why I said it would work with most anything.

Of course IM compounds are outside of the range of this discussion anyway.

The only oral tests I can think of off hand is Andriol (which is terribly ineffective anyway) or methyltest.

Also, while not testosterone, progesterone is listed as having possible greater absorption taken with grapefruit juice, why would testosterone be so different?

Just to clarify, you're saying that CYP3A4 and P450 enzymes have little to do with degradation of PHs in the system?

Even if the P450 deactivation of oral test (which nobody takes) or PHs was "minor" as you put it, then by your own words, one would receive at the least a minor increase in efficacy. But maybe, the efficacy would be improved quite a bit... As I mentioned before, the exact nature by which grapefruit juice aids in absorption is not completely understood; it may help absorbtion in ways we don't understand yet. I think the minor investment would merit taking grapefruit juice/extract -- if nothing else, the pectin is great for you.

Anecdotally, I find myself getting better than average results when employing grapefruit juice; a lot of very intelligent guys over on the juice (no pun intended) board swear by it to. At the least it will improve efficacy incrementally, but it might do much better than that too.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

In response to your first question, I am about to introduce a very effective anti-estrogen supplement that will stimulate your testosterone production. It contains a novel compound (enzyme inhibitor).

Also, what is Idex?

I think 3 times a day dosing is probably best. If you take too little at a time the liver can deactivate the dose too easily. OTOH If you take doses too infrequently then your levels will not be even enough throughout the day. I believe 3 times a day is a good compromise for 1-AD

Hmmm... sounds like an interesting product -- I don't suppose you can talk about it much yet eh? I'd love to read about it at some point...

Sorry ldex=liquidex=anastrozle it's readily available for research. It is an extremely effective anti-e. Typical usage while on an androgenic cycle is between .5mg to 1mg/day.

3x/day dosing sounds good -- do you think 500 mgs/day for somebody 6', 215 lbs. @ +/- 10% bf sounds good? Or would higher be better?

 

[fhg43]

Machine-
I am currently on a 1-AD/4-AD/Androsray cycle and it is very effective. Granted my goals are different from the average user, but I can see results. My goals are:
1) increase test levels to help body deal with periods of increased training
2) Increase muscular strength by adding a few pounds of lean muscle mass, but avoid significant weight gain i.e trade fat for muscle-not much to trade though!! (I am an endurance athlete)

Over the fall winter I did a 4-AD/5-AD/Androspray cycle and had good results there as well. I added a few pounds of muscle and my muscles were noticeabley larger. I didn't get too puffy from the stack-my BF is really low and all the endurance really forces it to stay low. I did crash after that cycle but it wasn't too bad. My testes did atrophy, but they returned after a few weeks. I retained the strength and size-it is now 4 months after cycle 1.

Currently my dosages are as follows:
1-AD 400mg
4-AD 500-750mg
ADSpray 6 sprays- ~240mg

I cycled up for ~10 days and will taper for about 10 as well. I should round out to an 8week cycle. Sides:
-no sex drive
-feel very unmotivated to train and tired too (this really sucks)

Pumps are awesome!! I feel super strong too. I need to figure out the dosing schedule though. I currently take the 1-AD 2x daily and the 4-AD w/it. I was thinking I should spread it out over the day like 4x daily.

I am with you on the legality issue. It just seems like a pain to have find a good source or smuggle stuff across the border-plus the consequences that come with it. If I were trying to get huge I'd do it, but my goals are different. I think there are good PHs out there now that will satisfy the non-competetive bodybuilders needs. And honestly IMO for those who are just trying to look good for the ladies, smart trainng, diligent dieting, and good supplementation (including PHs) can get you your goals.

FHG

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Machine-
I am currently on a 1-AD/4-AD/Androsray cycle and it is very effective. Granted my goals are different from the average user, but I can see results. My goals are:
1) increase test levels to help body deal with periods of increased training
2) Increase muscular strength by adding a few pounds of lean muscle mass, but avoid significant weight gain i.e trade fat for muscle-not much to trade though!! (I am an endurance athlete)

Over the fall winter I did a 4-AD/5-AD/Androspray cycle and had good results there as well. I added a few pounds of muscle and my muscles were noticeabley larger. I didn't get too puffy from the stack-my BF is really low and all the endurance really forces it to stay low. I did crash after that cycle but it wasn't too bad. My testes did atrophy, but they returned after a few weeks. I retained the strength and size-it is now 4 months after cycle 1.

Currently my dosages are as follows:
1-AD 400mg
4-AD 500-750mg
ADSpray 6 sprays- ~240mg

I cycled up for ~10 days and will taper for about 10 as well. I should round out to an 8week cycle. Sides:
-no sex drive
-feel very unmotivated to train and tired too (this really sucks)

Pumps are awesome!! I feel super strong too. I need to figure out the dosing schedule though. I currently take the 1-AD 2x daily and the 4-AD w/it. I was thinking I should spread it out over the day like 4x daily.

I am with you on the legality issue. It just seems like a pain to have find a good source or smuggle stuff across the border-plus the consequences that come with it. If I were trying to get huge I'd do it, but my goals are different. I think there are good PHs out there now that will satisfy the non-competetive bodybuilders needs. And honestly IMO for those who are just trying to look good for the ladies, smart trainng, diligent dieting, and good supplementation (including PHs) can get you your goals.

FHG

Sounds like you are taking a fairly hefty volume of PHs -- thanks for the detailed description... maybe you should try 3x/day dosing like Pat mentioned above? Personally, I wouldn't want to put that much material in my body...

The no sex drive would suck. I've only ever had that happen on a deca-only cycle. Next time I stacked w/ cyp and all was well. I wonder if the 4ad outweighing the 1ad is the cause of this? As far as tiredness, you may be overtrained, dehydrated, or carb-depleted (or some combination thereof) -- think this is possible?

As far as legality -- it's not so much the hooking up, it's the fear of getting popped. And what I have to lose if I do. Don't get me wrong -- I love AS, and properly researched, I think they can be used responsibly and to great effect. However, if PHs can offer me results that rival some of the milder roids, then it would be worth the tradeoff to me to be legal.

Keep us up to date on your PH cycle...