What is it about Front Squats vs. Back Squats...

[Jim Ouini]

...that allows me to sit deep in the hole? Is it just the position of the bar and center of gravity? or the upright position?

I was messing around for weeks trying to find a stance and foot position for ATG back squats and never got the form (granted I was in the middle of 5 x 5 so didn't have a whole lot of room for experimentation with light weights).

I do some front squats yesterday and I just naturally went down so my hams were completely slapped all over my calves. I was only at 95lbs and I was wearing my oly shoes but still, when I used to do front squats in the past with, say, 185 or so I still remember getting lower.

I'm wondering if there's any form cues I can take from FS that I can apply next time I try ATG back squats.

 

[thelion2005]

Fronts are highly recommended by "old school" purists.

I took a look at some pics and saw:
- heels on 2" block
- approximately 24" wide stance
- toes out
- bar very high - base of throat
- held by hands, wrists back, little wider than shoulders
- head up, eyes up
- smooth down with toes over knees
- down to below parallel
- smooth back up

The weight looked lighter.

Good luck.

 

[Madcow2]

Torso is more upright to keep weight centered - think about your levers (i.e. lower leg, upper leg, torso and how this translates to more clearance). The OL shoes don't hurt either believe me. That said, I honestly think the front squat is a good way to develop a rock steady bottom position and it will translate into the backsquat over time (actually, let me know after a few sessions how your pause squats and back squats are - I bet you are a lot more comfortable in the hole).

 

[Jim Ouini]

Torso is more upright to keep weight centered - think about your levers (i.e. lower leg, upper leg, torso and how this translates to more clearance). The OL shoes don't hurt either believe me.

Does this mean for ATG back squats my torso should be more upright? So looking at levers, if I keep the weight closer to my hips by keeping my torso upright the lever arm is shorter...I guess that's better.

That said, I honestly think the front squat is a good way to develop a rock steady bottom position and it will translate into the backsquat over time (actually, let me know after a few sessions how your pause squats and back squats are - I bet you are a lot more comfortable in the hole).

OK, I think I'll break the front squats out of my circuit so I can concentrate on them more. I'd really like to get good at these. Seriously, I can sit on my calves all day this way.

I think I read from either you or somewhere else that they weren't really meant to be done for high reps anyway, due to it's roots as an oly assistance exercise. I know I can't hold an appreciable amount of weight up for more than 5-8 reps.

The Lion: Thanks for the tips, appreciate it

 

[needtogetaas]

need more.

 

[super_rice]

hey jim, how are the oly shoes treating you? i got mine on monday, and i am the happiest lifter there is. it takes a bit of getting used to though, as i've found that my old shoes actually had a BACKWARDS lean.

 

[Madcow2]

Jim that was in reference to the OLs themselves not front squats. Technique deteriorates due to fatigue so high reps are avoided.

 

[Madcow2]

need more.

And WTF? This is the second time I've read this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5126459&postcount=15

Not exactly sure what this means but it's in 2 threads that are unrelated to each other.

 

[Jim Ouini]

hey jim, how are the oly shoes treating you? i got mine on monday, and i am the happiest lifter there is. it takes a bit of getting used to though, as i've found that my old shoes actually had a BACKWARDS lean.

I love them. I got the a pair of the discontinued Adidas Ironworks. I'm not totally used to them yet but they are stable as hell (in addition to helping me with my limited ankle ROM). What kind did you get?

And I guess backward lean helps you drive off your heels?

Jim that was in reference to the OLs themselves not front squats. Technique deteriorates due to fatigue so high reps are avoided.e

Noticed that

Still, I get some shoulder fatigue or upper body fatigue with front squats (I definitely need to find that pocket to place the bar)

 

[Madcow2]

Elbows point straight forward and are held high, bar rests in fingers (maybe not as securely as we wish it to). So do that and then find where your front delt tied into your clavicle (i.e. should point directly backward). This is the slot, you keep your elbows high and the bar sits between here and your throat pretty much. Depending on your body you might have to really work to keep your elbows up and maintain the rack.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Elbows point straight forward and are held high, bar rests in fingers (maybe not as securely as we wish it to). So do that and then find where your front delt tied into your clavicle (i.e. should point directly backward). This is the slot, you keep your elbows high and the bar sits between here and your throat pretty much. Depending on your body you might have to really work to keep your elbows up and maintain the rack.

Thanks for the great advice, as usual. Maybe my delts are too small to form a pocket

Anyway, yeah the elbows up is the hard part for me. I have this problem with push presses too.

 

[Madcow2]

Your elbows don't need to be high for push presses. Are we talking about the same thing here? The bottom of the upper arms should be parallel to the ground and elbows are pointed straight forward (roughly).

 

[Jim Ouini]

?? Sounds like you're saying for both FS and PP that upper arm should be parallel and elbows pointing forward...

I was reading PP form from Ripptoe's book and *I think* that's what he said too.

Maybe the confusion is that I consider elbows pointing forward 'high' lol

 

[Madcow2]

Are upper arms parallel to the floor and straight out in front?

To be honest, even in the jerk the rack is adjusted and elbows are a bit wider and down some (bar is still on clavicles though but you can get away with this standing up). Given that the push press is basically just assisted military with leg drive your elbows have to be pointed down to some degree and generally in the position from which you press.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well for Front Squats yes, but I have problems holding this position for long. Elbow tend to want to drop.

For PP I tried the elbows forward but couldn't generate any force so I dropped 'em and just used whatever position to get the weight up (which was elbows down).

 

[Madcow2]

Ahh - I bet I know where elbows "forward" came from for the press. He means they point down but your upper back is concaved forward so your shoulders are forward so the bar path clears your head (i.e. this is how you don't bash in your chin in the jerk - which happens to everyone at least once and although funyy is just horrendous).

As far as the front squats - yeah they want to go down but you have to keep them up. Sometimes I think it can be harder maintaining the rack than squatting the weight. It's an uncomfortable movement but a productive one.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Ahh - I bet I know where elbows "forward" came from for the press. He means they point down but your upper back is concaved forward so your shoulders are forward so the bar path clears your head (i.e. this is how you don't bash in your chin in the jerk - which happens to everyone at least once and although funyy is just horrendous).

Oh so THAT's what he meant. To be honest I didn't read that section throughly, I just looked at the pics

As far as the front squats - yeah they want to go down but you have to keep them up. Sometimes I think it can be harder maintaining the rack than squatting the weight. It's an uncomfortable movement but a productive one.

I definitely lose the rack first. Something to work on for sure.

 

[super_rice]

I definitely lose the rack first. Something to work on for sure.

I as well. Sometimes I don't know if it is more impressive for olys to front squat 200kilos or to never have their rack positions give.

The bottom rack position is where the lifting shoes have helped me the most. I warmed up with some front squats on monday and I can finally sit in the catch position properly. It's a great feeling!

Madcow: If a trainee is experienced and comfortable with the front squat, for example it doesn't wind them to hold a 80-90% backsquat in the catch position or whichever method you'd like to use to judge this, can front squatting be used to replace back squatting as a way to scale back?

ie: instead of doing an 80% backsquat, do an 80% front squat if the volume/intensity needs a temporary adjustment, as the fs would most likely have a lower 1RM.

 

[Madcow2]

Yeah - the Wed light squat workout in the 5x5 is often replaced with heavy front squats instead.

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

hey madcow- question on front squats- what grip are you liking? I always go with a clean grip, but now im going heavier so maybe hands crossed in front over bar would work better???

 

[Madcow2]

hey madcow- question on front squats- what grip are you liking? I always go with a clean grip, but now im going heavier so maybe hands crossed in front over bar would work better???

Stick with the clean grip, it's 10000x easier and more stable. I have no idea how people do the buddha (crossed). I'd just toss in the towel and buy one of those harnesses or some such device. There is no advantage to the crossed whatsoever, it's just a way for people to front squat if they can't hold the bar in the clean.

 

[blut wump]

Odd, I did front squats for the first time yesterday, if you discount odd partials while raising the bar to a higher notch.

I almost lost the bar a couple of times near the end of sets but finally settled on having my forearms crossed and having fingers and thumb to either side of the inner-most knurling. Keeping elbows high obviously helps to maintain bar stability.

Regarding getting fully down, I'd not been having trouble with it with my rear squats but I have found that the wider I spread my feet then the harder it is to go ATF. With front squats it seemed completely natural.

It never occured to me to have elbows forward on MP. I always used more of a snatch-width grip. Something else to look into.

 

[Jim Ouini]

I think for some folks with huge pythons the clean grip is hard - I don't have that problem

 

[Madcow2]

I think for some folks with huge pythons the clean grip is hard - I don't have that problem

At one point I actually stopped all arm training for a few years just to make that rack better. Also it's a combination of arm length (the longer, the more severe the angle required), muscle size (crowds the required angle), and flexability (in wrist and elbows primarily).

 

[Tweakle]

I like fronts but find everytime I do them I hurt my knees.. madcow you have any idea why that is? my knees dont track much further forward than when I backsquat, and there's no wobbling during the lift. But last week I popped my fuckin kneecap so badly it still hurts

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

At one point I actually stopped all arm training for a few years just to make that rack better. Also it's a combination of arm length (the longer, the more severe the angle required), muscle size (crowds the required angle), and flexability (in wrist and elbows primarily).

thanks for clearing that up- I thought by pythons, he meant boobs!! (& yeah mine sometimes get in the way dammit)

 

[Madcow2]

I like fronts but find everytime I do them I hurt my knees.. madcow you have any idea why that is? my knees dont track much further forward than when I backsquat, and there's no wobbling during the lift. But last week I popped my fuckin kneecap so badly it still hurts

I honestly don't know but I can offer some suggestions. Obviously the front squat shifts the emphasis forward and involves more quad even if your knees don't track much further forward.

You have some very solid lifts and my first thought is that you can front squat a lot but aren't used to front squatting (assumption - but this is the feeling I get). So when you go and do this, you can handle a lot of weight but your body is not accustomed to handling weight in this manner. So this may be transfering a lot of stress to your joints and connective tissue (the big movers are all in place and fine but the small ones aren't setup to handle the different leverages so the joint/tissue takes the brunt to leverage your strength in the large muscles).

As an experiment, if I was serious about front squatting - I'd heal up first and then start light and gradually increase week to week. Maybe even start at 135 for reps (yeah I know it's really low but you are not building strength but conditioning your body for the movement as this seems to be the issue). You could add this in at the end of a workout or as a warmup and I doubt it would have much effect on your real lifts. Gradually build it up and I'd bet you'll be handling heavy weights in the movement without problem within 2 months. Try twice a week at first (no failure or anything just work through the range in warmup) and then as it gets more significant you might have to factor its impact into your programming.

Just thoughts anyway but this is kind of the way I'm leaning. Plus if there is an issue, you'll find it with light weight rather than heavy.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Did 5 x 5 w/95lbs fronts today. I really feel like I'm training the rack more than anything else, had to bend my wrists waaay back. That kinda hurt.

And at this weight I didn't really feel anything in my legs, but I will say it's a nice feeling being able to sit down on your ankles.

 

[Mr_Sinister]

I find the front squat uncomfortable in the clean, and unstable with the cross grip. I just dropped it and did regular squats and threw in hack squats.

 

[Madcow2]

Did 5 x 5 w/95lbs fronts today. I really feel like I'm training the rack more than anything else, had to bend my wrists waaay back. That kinda hurt.

And at this weight I didn't really feel anything in my legs, but I will say it's a nice feeling being able to sit down on your ankles.

Stretch your wrists consistently beforehand. Straight arm down, elbow pointed out at 90 degrees, extend wrist back so that it's facing inward accross your body opposite direction from the elbow facing out. Stretch it back by pulling on your fingers. You might also consider taping your wrists or using wrist wraps for some added support. Also, even if you only get some fingers underneath it's still okay. Maybe work on your elbow/shoulder flexability too.

Bottom line is that even for genetically gifted people this movement is a bear. Very few people actually like performing front squats even those who love to squat and pull.

 

[blut wump]

I really didn't mind the cross grip but then I only went up to 80Kg since it was my first session with the exercise.

I'm sure bigger guys than I use the fingers-under grip but I have a hard time imagining how to cope with the problem of forearms pressing against biceps. Maybe I need to practice that elbows-forward grip for push-press since it sounds similar.

 

[Madcow2]

It can help to develop some flexability to be able to have the forearms at a bit of an angle. Where elbow and upper arm are straight forward at 90 degrees but instead of the forearm coming straight back it become back a bit outside this line (probably 20 degrees off the upper arm line). This takes some shoulder and elbow flexability that can take some time to develop. Would be better if you didn't have to. That said, it helps you get around the biceps a bit.

 

[blut wump]

Yes, indeed. With my hands on the first ring, as in a clean-grip, my forearms were going outside my upper arms and there was no clash. I used the grip for push-press and I can see that it'll take some practice but it was an enjoyable movement and a good alternative to MP.

I think I'll stick with the cross-over hold for front squats. At low weights, at least, I find it completely stable and quite comfortable.

 

[Jim Ouini]

I tried that angled forearm thing today. Not that my pythons get in the way or anything, actually my forearms just ended up that way and I thought 'well, this kinda works' and went with it.

My rack is definitely getting better. Really stretched out my wrists today which helped a lot.

Went up to 155 for 5 and for the most part was able to keep the elbows up. And as per the original topic, I'm able to sit butt to ankles (with the help of my oly shoes) and just drive out of the bottom. It's a great feeling.

 

[super_rice]

I find the hardest thing about front squats is breathing while doing these. They just suck the wind out of you.

As far as grip, it really helps to take something like a hook grip to help force your arms into the proper rack position. Plus, you'd use hook grips when doing olys anyway, so may as well try it.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Man I'm so inflexible my fingers are bent back as far as they can go and barely under the bar, no way could I get my thumbs back there

 

[super_rice]

When in the hole holding a bar in the clean rack position, I can only get the first half of my fingers, sometimes only 1/3 of my fingers around the bar. That's the reason for the hook grip idea, so you force your arms into that position. It actually does not hurt as much as it sonds. Take a hook grip, and the weight of the bar will force your arms into position. Try it, you can keep your elbows up easier too.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Doing fronts on Thursday, I'll give it a try

 

[anotherbutters]

I tried hook grip today as I'm learning front squats too. I think I kept my fingers further round the bar, but my overriding concern was wrist fatigue. I'm sure they'll get used to it with practice and stretching.

super_rice - how do you deload the bar when you've finished? I can't dump it and don't have a rack.

 

[KhorneDeth]

how do you deload the bar when you've finished? I can't dump it and don't have a rack.

I have this same question. I've been practicing front squats as well as replacements for squatting in the smith machine, and similar to many others, I'm having a HELL of a time with the wrist/elbow flexibility. So much so that even squatting only the bar, my wrist and forearms are so (stretched) tight and sore, that I can barely grip the bar on the way back down to set it on the deck.

I can't imagine this will work very well once the weight starts creeping up, as I'll basically be just dropping it on the ground. And this is just a regular gym floor with metal plates, not a platform with bumper plates.

Currently, I'm experimenting with hand placement on the bar. I've tried it so my fingers are pressed between bar and shoulders, with fingers just brushing outside of my shoulders, and a little further out -- in all cases, there's that stretched-tight soreness and weak gripping ability on the way down. Not to mention the fact that I have very minimal control of the bar itself while actually squatting.

And with regards to "racking" the weight on my shoulders, I can feel it brushing/pressing against my clavicles and even pushing up against my neck. Not exactly crushing the windpipe, but mind this is only the bar. I can foresee adding weight and then not being able to breathe and/or shredding the skin and bone right at the base of my neck. I'm having a time of it trying to find this slot/groove people are describing.

ANY suggestions on what to work on or how to improve would be much appreciated. I've read posts/articles on proper form, watched vids online, even asked one of the big dudes at the gym, but I still feel like I'm getting it very, very wrong.

-- KhorneDeth

 

[anotherbutters]

These pictures helped me a lot: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/ElbowPosition.html in particular the bottom ones where the bar is not supported by the hands at all. I tried it with just the bar and that got me understanding where the bar should be on my shoulders and what it should feel like when it's in the right position. For me that's just clear of the collarbone and quite tight on the windpipe, but not overly restrictive on breathing.

After that it was a matter of getting the hands in place. I stretch my wrists beforehand. Arms out to the front and pull fingers back, with hand facing up, then down (2 stretches). I can get my hands at a 90 degree angle to my forearms, and they seem flexible enough. My problem is wrist stability when getting the bar out of the position at the end. I think the solution is to dump the bar, but that's not an option for me.

 

[blut wump]

In getting the bar down again you really only have a couple of options:
1) try to control it from your shoulders all the way to the floor, as you would if doing cleans for repetitions;
2) control part way down to some convenient resting point and then do a second stage to the floor, or to another resting point and repeat.

1 might be asking for trouble with pre-stressed wrists.
2 is what I tend to do if I've just failed a clean or barely attained a clean. I kind of control/slide it down my torso to my thighs and then do a second stage to the floor. It's not comfortable but I've never felt unsafe doing it.

 

[KhorneDeth]

These pictures helped me a lot: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/ElbowPosition.html .

In these pics it looks like the hands are placed an inch or two outside the shoulders. Is this proper form or simply a product of the example/model being a female without the broader shoulders of a male lifter? In fact, her hands look spaced out as wide (relative to her body) as mine are (relative to mine) when I'm doing military press. Not quite to the rings, but nearly.

Anyone have any good shots/vids of proper form in the hole? With no one at my gym even half-qualified to coach me, I'm left with what I can gather online for assistance. Thanks to all!

I'll try the hands free position on Friday for practice.

-- KhorneDeth

 

[Jim Ouini]

I just did'em today. I think I'm getting the hang of the rack. Well let's just say it'll be soon where my legs fail before the rack

I tried the hook grip but I think it forced my elbows down, since I don't have very good flexibility yet. The fingers barely under the bar works pretty well for me and able to keep my elbows up.

I also tried just the bar with arms fully extended and it damn near took out my windpipe.

As far as hand placement, I think I had mine just inside the first line (where lots of people have their hands for bench). I'm sure there's an optimum but I just did what felt comfortable and allowed me to keep my upper arm parallel to the floor. You may have to play around with it in order to find the right location for your flexibility and arm size/length.

 

[blut wump]

I did front squats again yesterday, too. I again tried the cross-over grip and my thumb tips kind of tucked in under the bar into those little hollows at the side of the base of the neck (that's the official Greek medical term, I believe). I was quite comfortable with that position and I think I'll be sticking to it for the exercise. I'm going to take a look at Svend Karlsen's video and see how he does them.

He does them cross-over which is probably what caused me to choose that grip. He does a bit more weight than I do but then he is wearing a belt.

 

[KhorneDeth]

The fingers barely under the bar works pretty well for me and able to keep my elbows up.

I also tried just the bar with arms fully extended and it damn near took out my windpipe.

Well, I went out for another session of front squats today, and I found both of these to be the case with me as well. Fingertips just sitting under the bar, elbows pressed up and slightly inward as well -- did wonders for stabilizing the rack I had going. Tri's were parallel to the floor through the whole movement, and I could put my ass nearly to my heels.

I even threw on 10s to each side, creating a massive, back-breaking, soul-shattering 65lb front squat! Actually, the added weight seemed to help a bit as the bar sat a little deeper in the fat on my shoulders, further stablizing me. (God, it hurts to admit that.) I think I might be able to work with this!

For shits and giggles, I also tried the hands-free position and damnit, anyone that can still breathe like that has to have a windpipe of pure steel. Literally couldn't do any more than a few reps at a time -- no air coming in! But at least I did get an idea of how the bar doesn't necessarily need your hands to stay balanced.

And on a slightly adventurous note, me and a couple new guys at the gym tried finding any way to make a "mock" squat rack. Tried setting it on the top rack of the bench apparatus, tried resting it across the dip station handles, we sat it on the back of the smith machine that stores the plates -- hell, we even thought we might be able to rig something with weight-belts to hang a bar from the pullup station!! Sadly, none of these were very practical or safe to try.

But it was kinda fun to try!

-- KhorneDeth

 

[Jim Ouini]

Glad you found a good solution. And the weights on fronts are pretty humbling, but I figure I'm training the movement here. At least that's what I tell myself

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well I got 185 x 5 on the fronts today, which is pretty good for me. Able to sit on my ankles and drive it up, wasn't too bad at all.

I now hold the bar with only my forefinger and middle finger, the rest are just flappin in the wind.

These really take the wind out of me, I think because you have to keep your core tight the whole time.

I hope it all bodes well for ATF back squats.

 

[Shepherd4]

When in the hole holding a bar in the clean rack position, I can only get the first half of my fingers, sometimes only 1/3 of my fingers around the bar. That's the reason for the hook grip idea, so you force your arms into that position. It actually does not hurt as much as it sonds. Take a hook grip, and the weight of the bar will force your arms into position. Try it, you can keep your elbows up easier too.

Not quite (although I allow for the possibility that you intentionally overgeneralized). The reason for the hook grip is to provide a more secure grip during the first and second pulls of the snatch and clean -- it has absolutely nothing to do with the positioning of your hands during the catch. In fact, plenty of lifters catch the bar in the clean position with only their fingertips under the bar to guide it into the niche between your delts and your clavicles. Once they recover from the clean, they will reset their grip (although not to a full hook grip) before the jerk.

For your purposes (i.e., front squatting, not cleaning), only having the first 1/2 or 1/3 of your fingers under the bar is plenty.

mpc

"Think of Tiger Woods out there hitting a bucket of balls. He's not swinging the 5-iron to get stronger -- he's swinging it to hone the groove. Hone the groove."