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We don't need the 17aa orals!
- Thread starter Realgains
- Start date
G
Golfer18--old
Guest
No way, winny is great, anavar is too........
Prop is a fast acting ester and Test in general covers the class one and class two roid issue.
Winny is a good class two roid.
Tren is fast and a great class one roid ( I don't believe it is kidney toxic)
Tren /Test stack cannot be beat in my opinion.
Deca is good and a Deca / test stack is great
Anavar is 17aa toxic but doses are usually kept low with this roid.
Anadrol simply kills the liver dudes as one needs a high dose of the stuff compaired to d-bol.
D-bol isn't good either though but it is better then A-bombs
Winny is a good class two roid.
Tren is fast and a great class one roid ( I don't believe it is kidney toxic)
Tren /Test stack cannot be beat in my opinion.
Deca is good and a Deca / test stack is great
Anavar is 17aa toxic but doses are usually kept low with this roid.
Anadrol simply kills the liver dudes as one needs a high dose of the stuff compaired to d-bol.
D-bol isn't good either though but it is better then A-bombs
G
Golfer18--old
Guest
If your gyno prone u must go 17aa.
xonic2xonic
New member
Once again, excuse my ignorance and lack of search effort, but if you wouldn't mind, whats this Class I and II about?
Also what does dosage have to do do with AA liver damage... if that were the case then Winny would be the worst at 50-150mg / DAY /EOD range !?
Thanks!
Also what does dosage have to do do with AA liver damage... if that were the case then Winny would be the worst at 50-150mg / DAY /EOD range !?
Thanks!
xonic2 xonic....Anadrol is needed in a higher dose compaired to dbol and winny in order to see results bro. Dbol for example has a higher affinity to the androgen receptor and is more effective at a smaller dose than anadrol. Anadrol has a lower affinity and this is why you see anadrol in 50mg tabs.
All the above roids are 17 alpha alkylated in order for them to be able to withstand oral administration.....Anadrol because of its higher needed dose has more of this toxic compound.
As a rough guide 30mg of dbol will produce similar gains to 150 mg of anadrol.
All the above roids are 17 alpha alkylated in order for them to be able to withstand oral administration.....Anadrol because of its higher needed dose has more of this toxic compound.
As a rough guide 30mg of dbol will produce similar gains to 150 mg of anadrol.
xonic2xonic
New member
OK I'm still missing something!
The effective dosage for winny is 50-150mg, so does that not make it definately more liver toxic than dbol and at full dose the same as abombs?
The effective dosage for winny is 50-150mg, so does that not make it definately more liver toxic than dbol and at full dose the same as abombs?
Golfer18 said:
I don't know where you got this idea bro
D-bol is definately estrogenic and will cause gyno in those that will get gyno.
Anadrol is not estrogenic but is thought to probably be progestogenic. It may be an estrogen agonist. Anadrol will bloat you big time and some do get gyno from it too but not as easily as with d-bol.
xonic2 xonic The effective dose of winny orally is 75 mg...and that compairs with 30mg. Winny is very liver toxic and 75 mg is just as hard on the liver as 75 mg of d-bol or 75 mg of anadrol.
30 mg of d-bol is therefore less liver toxic than 75 mg of winny.
Why take winny orally at all when you can inject it with an insulin syringe and avoid the "first pass" on the Liver. Not only that but it is great for site injetions and I do believe they work to a small degree.
I may get creamed here but I think anyone that does winny orally is not well informed.
30 mg of d-bol is therefore less liver toxic than 75 mg of winny.
Why take winny orally at all when you can inject it with an insulin syringe and avoid the "first pass" on the Liver. Not only that but it is great for site injetions and I do believe they work to a small degree.
I may get creamed here but I think anyone that does winny orally is not well informed.
xonic2xonic
In regard to class one and class two ...
Bill Roberts coined the idea.
Some roids really hit the Androgen receptor hard . Examples are Nandrolone and Trenbolone. Some roids seem to work in non AR mediated ways more than others....examples are Winny and d-bol.
It is a good idea to stack a class one roid or one that hits the AR hard, with a class two roid or one that works in non AR mediated ways in a greater way. In this way you maximize results by covering all bases that are envolved in muscle growth.
Testosterone is great because it works so well in both ways, at the AR and through non AR mediated mechanisms.
Ultimate stacks that do not include 17aa orals are
Deca/Winny...winny is also thought to combat the progestogenic affect of Deca and Deca keeps the joints lubricated to combat the harsh affect winny has on the joints. GREAT STACK!
Deca/Test...Really great and classic stack
and the king of ALL stacks Test/Tren
In regard to class one and class two ...
Bill Roberts coined the idea.
Some roids really hit the Androgen receptor hard . Examples are Nandrolone and Trenbolone. Some roids seem to work in non AR mediated ways more than others....examples are Winny and d-bol.
It is a good idea to stack a class one roid or one that hits the AR hard, with a class two roid or one that works in non AR mediated ways in a greater way. In this way you maximize results by covering all bases that are envolved in muscle growth.
Testosterone is great because it works so well in both ways, at the AR and through non AR mediated mechanisms.
Ultimate stacks that do not include 17aa orals are
Deca/Winny...winny is also thought to combat the progestogenic affect of Deca and Deca keeps the joints lubricated to combat the harsh affect winny has on the joints. GREAT STACK!
Deca/Test...Really great and classic stack
and the king of ALL stacks Test/Tren
J
johnboy
Guest
read this,he explains it better
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/
read as much as you can and you will know which steroids are class 1 and which are class 2.
xonic2xonic said:
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/
read as much as you can and you will know which steroids are class 1 and which are class 2.
im missing something here otherwise that don't make sense --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Realgains
Ultimate stacks that do not include 17aa orals are
Deca/Winny...winny is also thought to combat the progestogenic affect of Deca and Deca keeps the joints lubricated to combat the harsh affect winny has on the joints. GREAT STACK!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WINNY is 17aa even if it is injected- oral and injectable winny are the same, just that when injected(like as was said before)
it is processed by the liver one less time..which isnt very much less at all.
Originally posted by Realgains
Ultimate stacks that do not include 17aa orals are
Deca/Winny...winny is also thought to combat the progestogenic affect of Deca and Deca keeps the joints lubricated to combat the harsh affect winny has on the joints. GREAT STACK!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WINNY is 17aa even if it is injected- oral and injectable winny are the same, just that when injected(like as was said before)
it is processed by the liver one less time..which isnt very much less at all.
Punschkrapfen
New member
17aa is only to get the steroid molecules through the liver first pass unharmed. Gyno is caused through actions of the steroid itself like through aromatization. How it got into the bloodstream - injected or digested - is irrelevant.Golfer18 said:
Your_Moms_Kneepads
New member
We have hepatoprotectants! arrrgh...
Your_Moms_Kneepads
New member
I have a pic you might like that I have to scan. It says "ANADROL RULES" in the sand at one of the local beaches here....hahahahahaha.jstrong20 said:
Soma said:
Soma Yes Winny injectable has the exact same chemical make up as winny tabs, and thats why one can drink the stuff, BUT, you are wrong bro when you say that missing the "first pass", as is the case when taken IM, is not a big deal....it really is bro...its a very big deal.
When taken orally the 17aa compound goes directly to the Liver via the Portal Vein in it's intirety and all at once.......when an IM dose is detoxified it is done so very slowly and a little bit at a time and this the Liver can handle much better.
sk* said:
sk* IMO 30mg of dbol will give similar gains to 150mg of anadrol.. I am talking about "Realgains"(pardon the pun he he ) in muscle tissue. Anadrol will appear to get you bigger but I really believe that more of the gain is water. Have you ever noticed how much you loose in weight after going off Anadrol as opposed to dbol?
For sure 50 of dbol is equal to 150 of anadrol at least
G
Golfer18--old
Guest
Realgains said:
I don't know where you got this idea bro
D-bol is definately estrogenic and will cause gyno in those that will get gyno.
Anadrol is not estrogenic but is thought to probably be progestogenic. It may be an estrogen agonist. Anadrol will bloat you big time and some do get gyno from it too but not as easily as with d-bol.
Its called winstrol and anavar as i previously stated.
mike001
New member
50 dbol or 30mg?Realgains said:
sk* IMO 30mg of dbol will give similar gains to 150mg of anadrol.. I am talking about "Realgains"(pardon the pun he he ) in muscle tissue. Anadrol will appear to get you bigger but I really believe that more of the gain is water. Have you ever noticed how much you loose in weight after going off Anadrol as opposed to dbol?
G
Golfer18--old
Guest
Punschkrapfen said:
No fuckin shit. God Dammit use you fucking brain and figure why the in the FUCK gyno prone individuals use winstrol.
Mike001
Please be so kind as to point out my mistake as I do not believe I made any ...yet
Bro where did I say that winny doesn't go through the liver when injected. All through my posts I was referring to why we do not need to use 17aa orals. All steroids go through the liver at some time....it is a part of the detoxification process as they all get into the blood stream and all blood goes through the liver.
I can't believe I am getting bashed But bring it on dudes he he he I love this board too
Please be so kind as to point out my mistake as I do not believe I made any ...yet
Bro where did I say that winny doesn't go through the liver when injected.
All through my posts I was referring to why we do not need to use 17aa orals. All steroids go through the liver at some time....it is a part of the detoxification process as they all get into the blood stream and all blood goes through the liver. I can't believe I am getting bashed
But bring it on dudes he he he I love this board too
mike001
New member
can you see i edited it as soon as i re-read it sir. thank youRealgains said:Mike001
Please be so kind as to point out my mistake as I do not believe I made any ...yet
Bro where did I say that winny doesn't go through the liver when injected.
I can't believe I am getting bashed
G
Golfer18--old
Guest
mike001 said:
I dunno, maybe too much fina.
It always fucks me in the mornings.
Mike001
I personally believe that 30 of dbol taken in 4-5 divided doses will give equal realgains in muscle tissue to 150mg of anadrol...remember I am taking about real muscle and not just water weight.... PERHAPS this could be stretched to 50 mg...I was just trying to be less dogmatic bro...heck I never claimed to be a guru.....just sharring my experience and knowledge
BTW Guru Bill Llewellyn agrees with me on this HELLO BILL are you out there? 
I personally believe that 30 of dbol taken in 4-5 divided doses will give equal realgains in muscle tissue to 150mg of anadrol...remember I am taking about real muscle and not just water weight.... PERHAPS this could be stretched to 50 mg...I was just trying to be less dogmatic bro...heck I never claimed to be a guru.....just sharring my experience and knowledge
BTW Guru Bill Llewellyn agrees with me on this HELLO BILL are you out there?
Bring on the flames I can handle it..it think
I'm sorry, not a must. They do compliment cycles rather well though. Covers all the bases if you will. As an oral passes through the liver it releases IGF-1 which is essential in a gh cycle and very good for any other cycle. If I'm going to spend the money on a gh cycle I'm going to take everyone's advice and use and oral like dbol. I'm going to spend $600 dollars on three months alone. That's not including the aas involved. So, even if your gonna spend 200-300 dollars on an all injectable cycle why not throw an oral in there. I recomend doing a search on insulin dbol and IGF-1
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liquidmuscle
Well-known member
hell yeah i love 17aa halo,winny ......all the good shit
bigrand said:
I will have to respectfully disagree with much of that bro, although a couple cycle per year are probably okay...but lets say you are correct...why use them at all when we have such good injectables in every known ester?
Once you have tried the ultimate stack TEST/TREN he he he ..then you will not want any orals.
And as I mentioned before there is no eveidence to suggest that Tren is kidney toxic.Looks like I am getting the **##* kicked out of me on the poll.
So much for helping the old Liver out and keeping the cholesterol values sane
WHERE ARE ALL THE CAREFUL AND WISE OLD GUYS...30 and up he he he ??
I still think that if you are not a top competitor then you should avoid the 17aa orals.
I once attended a Dorian Yates seminar and he told me that later in his career he didn't touch them. NO BULL DUDES
So much for helping the old Liver out and keeping the cholesterol values sane
WHERE ARE ALL THE CAREFUL AND WISE OLD GUYS...30 and up he he he ??
I still think that if you are not a top competitor then you should avoid the 17aa orals.
I once attended a Dorian Yates seminar and he told me that later in his career he didn't touch them. NO BULL DUDES
The liver is quite resilient. It can handle a lot of shit, including 6-8 weeks of dbol at 50mg ED. Cycle off the orals and allow the liver to recover and you will be fine. I NEED dbol in my cycle, i love the shit, and i aint injecting ref-b (its a 17aa anyway). There are a lot of good injectables, but there are also several good orals. Its a mix and match. Just dont use too many orals at a time and for too long and one should be ok. No worse than weekly drinking..
Andrew Bradley
New member
I've only tried two varieties of 17AA gear; Anadrol and D-ball. I started using D-ball about 3 weeks into a Sustenon cycle and I got a big heater on my face for every little pink tab I took. After 10 days of it, I kind of made the correlation and stopped the D-ball(but continued the Sus) and the acne stopped completely. No other type of gear I've used has ever cause acne for me. I gave the remainder of my D-balls to a friend and he did not report a similar problem, actually he loved'em.
As far as Anadrol goes, a couple of weeks ago I tried'em at 50mgs/ed and had to stop after only 6 days. No acne or any thing like that, its just that they turned me into a fuckin psychopath. I liked what they did for me in the gym, but I'm still trying to do the damage control for my mood swings and unreasonable sensitivity from several weeks ago.
Winstrol is too hard to get here and what is here is mostly fake.
So thats that, no other type of gear has ever had adverse effects on me, just the 17 AA substances. I love Sus, Prop, EQ, Primo, and Proviron. If the 17 AAs ceased to exist, my life would be just as great. I've tried'em and can't stand'em.
Peace,
AJ.
As far as Anadrol goes, a couple of weeks ago I tried'em at 50mgs/ed and had to stop after only 6 days. No acne or any thing like that, its just that they turned me into a fuckin psychopath. I liked what they did for me in the gym, but I'm still trying to do the damage control for my mood swings and unreasonable sensitivity from several weeks ago.
Winstrol is too hard to get here and what is here is mostly fake.
So thats that, no other type of gear has ever had adverse effects on me, just the 17 AA substances. I love Sus, Prop, EQ, Primo, and Proviron. If the 17 AAs ceased to exist, my life would be just as great. I've tried'em and can't stand'em.
Peace,
AJ.
Realgains is correct on why injectible winny is safer for the liver than oral. One other thing is that more of the drug is used and less is destroyed by the liver. This equates to a lower dosage being as effective as a higher oral dose.
I like to remind people that dbol is the only drug invented specifically to build muscle. I love dbol. I wish it were easier for me to take. I get those excrutiating lower back pumps.
I like to remind people that dbol is the only drug invented specifically to build muscle. I love dbol. I wish it were easier for me to take. I get those excrutiating lower back pumps.
In terms of toxivity I have heard many different things about Anavar. Most seem to say it is not very toxic at the low dosages that people take it at, but I've heard a few say otherwise. What is the general opinion about the toxivity of anavar? No one has really touched on this yet in this thread. Specifically how toxic 30mg daily doses for say an 8 week cycle, just for example. Personally I would say it should be fine especially if you throw in some ALA.
xonic2xonic
New member
BIGMARCO......
Why do you like dboll so much, and can you expound on that only drug invented shit?
Thanks!
Why do you like dboll so much, and can you expound on that only drug invented shit?
Thanks!
gUiLe
New member
And the winner is........I say NO 17aa orals! I agree that you can
get awesome gains from both Dbol and Anadrol but is it really
worth it? I am 34 and will NOT subject my liver to that kind of
punishment. I can't wait to see all these Dbol and Anadrol
hornblowers 5 to 10 years from know when the doctor tells
them their livers are shot. Use all the ALA and milk thistle you
want, it will not help. The ONLY 17aa I ever did was Anavar. My liver values were very high after that. My bloodwork (always
get bloodwork before and after a cycle) showed it. If it is mass
you are after, why not just use Test? I'll stick with Deca, Primo
and EQ. I don't even need lil winny
get awesome gains from both Dbol and Anadrol but is it really
worth it? I am 34 and will NOT subject my liver to that kind of
punishment. I can't wait to see all these Dbol and Anadrol
hornblowers 5 to 10 years from know when the doctor tells
them their livers are shot. Use all the ALA and milk thistle you
want, it will not help. The ONLY 17aa I ever did was Anavar. My liver values were very high after that. My bloodwork (always
get bloodwork before and after a cycle) showed it. If it is mass
you are after, why not just use Test? I'll stick with Deca, Primo
and EQ. I don't even need lil winny
Re: Have you ever taken Anadrol?
Have to agree..
For me 30mg of dbol still doesn't equate to 50mg of A-50. The old Syntex pills were simply superb - I got awesome gains from 1/2 a pill ED. On 50mg I could hardly get sore and could workout for hours if I felt like it (this is why they call it the work capacity drug).
I had heard that an injectible A-50 was making the rounds in the mid-late 80's and it worked even better with lower dosages being more effective. Any body have any info as I was always curious? I know A's kits may be able to make it into an inject possibly creating some type of depot in the oil to last 1-2 days and provide more even levels.
All the enthusiasm aside, being older and wiser I wouldn't put A-50 in my body and I'm not too keen on using dbol any more.
jboldman said:
Have to agree..
For me 30mg of dbol still doesn't equate to 50mg of A-50. The old Syntex pills were simply superb - I got awesome gains from 1/2 a pill ED. On 50mg I could hardly get sore and could workout for hours if I felt like it (this is why they call it the work capacity drug).
I had heard that an injectible A-50 was making the rounds in the mid-late 80's and it worked even better with lower dosages being more effective. Any body have any info as I was always curious? I know A's kits may be able to make it into an inject possibly creating some type of depot in the oil to last 1-2 days and provide more even levels.
All the enthusiasm aside, being older and wiser I wouldn't put A-50 in my body and I'm not too keen on using dbol any more.
Re: Have you ever taken Anadrol?
jboldman said:150 mg of abombs the equivalent of 30mg dbol? Not in my world!
I would rate it closer to the same mg/mg!
=============================================
No way bro
Remember the bloat from A-bombs is worse than with d-bol IMO and thus there is less realgains in muscle...I am talking about real muscle tissue gain when I compair the two bro
Everyone reacts differently to each drug. I don't have any gyno problems on 30mg/day dbol, but test makes my nipples sensitive at 500mg/week. I also retain more water on test than dbol. Anadrol bloats me like a hippo, dbol doesn't. I personally won't run a 17aa for more than 4 weeks and only in low-moderate dosages. I will also wait at least 6 months before using one again. I don't think 17aa's are evil, but they should be used sparingly.
bigrand said:
Two things the average guy doesn't worry enough about is Liver and cholesterol bro ,IMO
Why use a liver toxic substance when you don't need to.
We have incredible roids like Trenbolone acetate, and then the best injectable, Testosterone, in many different esters....who the heck need d-bol or A-bombs anyway. Why not include nolvadex 20mg during a cycle with 17aa roids as it does improve cholesterol level. Two well know Guru's, Bill Roberts and Bill Llewellyn, advocate the nolva and or clomid for this reason.
Im concerned about my liver, but not overly. I take my 900mg of ALA ED and i watch for signs of liver stress (none even on 50mg dbol and 40mg anavar ED). My point is that orals have been around for ages and will continue to be around. They work and you dont see a whole lot of people with liver problems from them. Remember, several orals are prescription meds and anothough they are hard on the liver, they are not overly destructive. For the few that have had some bad liver problems (not talking elevated liver enzymes, more like peliosis hepatitis), which have been few, the liver usually repairs itself in time. Mentioning AAS without dbol is insane. The only injectable i know of is ref and its dirty. Bol is a mainstay along with winny, drol, halo, and var. I dont think there is an injectable that compares to bol and drol in terms of size increase. I still feel that it is good to combine an inj. and an oral (i would rather not inject 3 different AAS every week).
To each their own, but as long as people keep the doses sane and for a sane amount of time, their livers will be fine, the likleyhood of something bad happening is very small, so dont fret!
Good points though realgains, even though i think orals are relitivly safe, they are not without their dangers, just like everything else...
To each their own, but as long as people keep the doses sane and for a sane amount of time, their livers will be fine, the likleyhood of something bad happening is very small, so dont fret!
Good points though realgains, even though i think orals are relitivly safe, they are not without their dangers, just like everything else...
Xonix
To answer you question on why I love dbol, because it works. It works fast and complements many other drugs. I can only use it for four weeks, due to lower back pumps, but those are the best four weeks of my cycle.
When I mention that dbol is the only drug invented specifically to produce lean muscle, that does not in any way suggest it is the only effective drug to increase muscle. I should also reiterate, that it is the only human drug. Some of the vet drugs like winstrol and equipoise were created with horse performance in mind.
I am almost positive that dbol is the only drug created to build muscle. All the other anabolics were created to combat other diseases or symptoms. Please inform us if you know of any other anabolics created to specifically increase lean muscle.
Deca - cancer, burn victims
testosterone - HPTA shutdown
anadrol - anemia, low red blood cell count
To answer you question on why I love dbol, because it works. It works fast and complements many other drugs. I can only use it for four weeks, due to lower back pumps, but those are the best four weeks of my cycle.
When I mention that dbol is the only drug invented specifically to produce lean muscle, that does not in any way suggest it is the only effective drug to increase muscle. I should also reiterate, that it is the only human drug. Some of the vet drugs like winstrol and equipoise were created with horse performance in mind.
I am almost positive that dbol is the only drug created to build muscle. All the other anabolics were created to combat other diseases or symptoms. Please inform us if you know of any other anabolics created to specifically increase lean muscle.
Deca - cancer, burn victims
testosterone - HPTA shutdown
anadrol - anemia, low red blood cell count
one vote for my liver.
I won't use orals again unless it's anavar. Or if I get to nationals in a couple years, I'll use anadrol and/or winny for contest prep ONLY. Test,Tren,Deca,Primo,Equipoise,hGH,R3long IGF-1, and Insulin is all I could ever really ask for anyways.
I am also thinking about economics. 10 synovex carts cost 75$ and a sep kit cost $100. A 8gf kit for $60 and fina for $150. Arimidex cost $300 for 100mg. $50 for proscar.
that's 16g of test and 8g of fina
week1-10 100mg test ED
week1-8 75mg Fina ED
week 1-12 .5mg arimidex ED
week 19-29 100mg test ED
week 19-27 75mg Fina ED
week 19-31 .5mg arimidex ED
for around $750 including shipping.
week 1-31 igf-1 50mcg ED
week 1-31 hGH 4iu ED
For only another 7 grand!
That's got to look good for some of you on total hormone replacement. 45 weeks at 350mg per week cost under $200
I won't use orals again unless it's anavar. Or if I get to nationals in a couple years, I'll use anadrol and/or winny for contest prep ONLY. Test,Tren,Deca,Primo,Equipoise,hGH,R3long IGF-1, and Insulin is all I could ever really ask for anyways.
I am also thinking about economics. 10 synovex carts cost 75$ and a sep kit cost $100. A 8gf kit for $60 and fina for $150. Arimidex cost $300 for 100mg. $50 for proscar.
that's 16g of test and 8g of fina
week1-10 100mg test ED
week1-8 75mg Fina ED
week 1-12 .5mg arimidex ED
week 19-29 100mg test ED
week 19-27 75mg Fina ED
week 19-31 .5mg arimidex ED
for around $750 including shipping.
week 1-31 igf-1 50mcg ED
week 1-31 hGH 4iu ED
For only another 7 grand!
That's got to look good for some of you on total hormone replacement. 45 weeks at 350mg per week cost under $200
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