TRT not working at all.. help!

[koolkatarbtl]

Hi guys. I finally got started on TRT two weeks ago. I'm 2 days after my second shot. I'm doing 100mg Test Enanthate Sub-Q. No HCG.

I'm 19 years old and my labs indicate that I have pretty low T, LH,FSH, etc. All well below the norm for my age so my endo started me up on TRT. Along with everything else, my cortisol is a bit low, as is my thyroid, etc. Treatment was tried for that (HC, Armour, etc.) but it did not help much.

So anyway, like I said I'm 2 weeks into my shots and it is REDUCING my libido. My anxiety and depression increased and I'm having trouble maintaing an erection now and my load is reduced to about 75% of what it was.

To be quite honest i NEVER had ANY libido or erection problems, my main problem is major fatigue, brain fog, lack of motivation, lack of facial hair, etc. but libido was always perfect.

I'm started to get a bit panicky and I don't know what to do. Should I just quit while I'm ahead? Am I too young to be on TRT? Should I do more labs? It takes about 1 month before the lab results are available and I don't see my endo until February.

What should I do? How long does T take to stabilize and should I have felt the positive effects by now?

MRI was done and nothing was found either.

PRE-TRT LABS:

FSH: 2.1 U/L 1.4 - 18.1

LH: 3 UI/L 1.5 - 9.3

Test: 11.95 nmol/L 10 - 30

Bioavailable test: 6.4 nmol/L 3.5 - 18.8

estradiol: 80 pmol/L 55 - 198

cortisol AM: 456 nmol/L 165 - 850

TSH: 1.61 mU/L 0.27 - 4.2

01/06/07 blood test results:

TOTAL TESTOSTERONE: 6,8 10,0-30,0 nmol/L

SHBG: 13 12-46

FREE TEST: 218,0 223,0 - 915,0

BIOAVAILABLE TEST: 4,5 4,6-18,8

SALIVA:

Free cortisols:

AM: 13 Normal: 13-24 nM
NOON: 6 Normal: 5-10 nM
AFTERNOON: 4 Normal: 3-8 nM
MIDNIGHT: 1 Normal: 1-4 nM

DHEA: 7 Normal: 3-10 ng/ml

 

[goin on 4T]

100mg of E is not much and it will take 3+ weeks for the ethanate due to long ester half life. Have you ever run a cycle before?

 

[koolkatarbtl]

100mg of E is not much and it will take 3+ weeks for the ethanate due to long ester half life. Have you ever run a cycle before?

Never ran a cycle - I'm nineteen!

I'm just wondering why the T is making me feel WORSE than when I began?

I don't want to get any monstruous gains. I just want my T levels to be that of a normal 19 year old so I don't have to suffer from everything that people with low T suffer from... but like I said, oddly enough, I have never had any problems with libido (prior to starting the t shots)

I'm also doing them SubQ in the abdomen FWIW.

 

[RugbyHooligan]

2 weeks isn't enough time to determine...

enanthate has a long half life and you need to be on it for a few weeks in order to really see results, cyp is similar as well.

give it time

 

[goin on 4T]

Who told you to take test subq?

 

[disturbed311]

Who told you to take test subq?

Thats exactly what my first concern is.. Why would you inject Testosterone Sub-Q??? Doesn't make sense.. It needs to be intramuscular, unless i'm extremely mistaken.

 

[Bridger]

Sounds like adrenal issues.

Your cortisol levels look consistently low.

Have any thyroid tests done? TSH, Free T3?

post your labwork in the mens health forum at mesorx.com

They will be able to give you some great advice.

 

[Bridger]

Thats exactly what my first concern is.. Why would you inject Testosterone Sub-Q??? Doesn't make sense.. It needs to be intramuscular, unless i'm extremely mistaken.

some docs are going sub-q for TRT. its is absorbed a bit slower than IM.

 

[OMEGA]

100mg of E is not much and it will take 3+ weeks for the ethanate due to long ester half life. Have you ever run a cycle before?

it will take about 21 days to peak

also 100 mgs is NOTHING for many

Also Dont do it Sub Q, it MUST be IM

 

[OMEGA]

better ask your Dics, and if doe not help get a second and third option till SOMEONE$ helps you

 

[koolkatarbtl]

My endo is the top endo in Canada. President of the Canadian board of andopause and he also is the guy who discovered bioavailable testosterone.

He says sub-q T is a new method that they are now using with "phenomenal" results. There have also been some studies done and posted a bunch of other boards (none that I have on hand) that support the fact that they keep T levels just as stable as IM. Dr. Shippen has all his patients doing SubQ.

 

[OMEGA]

is it water based or oil based

 

[koolkatarbtl]

oil. same as ones done in studies. oil absorbs just fine into the fat and makes the release slower. also lower and slows rise in e apparently. i can post the studies if needed... but this is not a debate about which method is better....

im just wandering if i should continue TRT if it's making me feel worse.. thats all.

What could be a possible reason it is LOWERING my libido????

 

[OMEGA]

oil huh? and under the skin?

thats a negative

you can choose to ilisten to who you want or NOT

lol

 

[SuperOne]

koolkatarbtl, who is your endo? Can you PM me his contact information?


I live in Canada, and saw an endo last week, and wasnt all tha impressed.


If you could PM me id really appreciate it.


Thanks!

 

[5150guy]

Hi guys. I finally got started on TRT two weeks ago. I'm 2 days after my second shot. I'm doing 100mg Test Enanthate Sub-Q. No HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - .

I'm 19 years old and my labs indicate that I have pretty low T, lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - ,FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - - follicle stimulating hormone - - follicle stimulating hormone - , etc. All well below the norm for my age so my endo started me up on TRT. Along with everything else, my cortisol is a bit low, as is my thyroid, etc. Treatment was tried for that (HC, Armour, etc.) but it did not help much.

So anyway, like I said I'm 2 weeks into my shots and it is REDUCING my libido. My anxiety and depression increased and I'm having trouble maintaing an erection now and my load is reduced to about 75% of what it was.

To be quite honest i NEVER had ANY libido or erection problems, my main problem is major fatigue, brain fog, lack of motivation, lack of facial hair, etc. but libido was always perfect.

I'm started to get a bit panicky and I don't know what to do. Should I just quit while I'm ahead? Am I too young to be on TRT? Should I do more labs? It takes about 1 month before the lab results are available and I don't see my endo until February.

What should I do? How long does T take to stabilize and should I have felt the positive effects by now?

MRI was done and nothing was found either.

PRE-TRT LABS:

FSH: 2.1 U/L 1.4 - 18.1

LH: 3 UI/L 1.5 - 9.3

Test: 11.95 nmol/L 10 - 30

Bioavailable test: 6.4 nmol/L 3.5 - 18.8

estradiol: 80 pmol/L 55 - 198



Your initial pre TRT E2 values are too high. This high of E2 will negate any benefits you may be getting from your TRT. Most men prefer to be in the 20-30 range. The anxiety, depression, and ED are text book for too high of E2 levels. Any doc who really knows what they are doing will know that your T/E ratio is just as important as your total T and your free T.

Has your doc put you on arimidex or Femara?

I noticed that you did not post any results for you E2 levels after starting your TRT program. Any doc who does not monitor you E2 levels and track them as much as your various T levels does not know what he or she is doing. Also they need to run the more sensitive test for E2. If your doc is not doing this, it will be difficult to get a real picture of your E2 levels once you get your TRT going and even more so important once you start using an aromitase inhibitor such as Arimidex.

I cant see your other levels, but did your doc look at your prolactin levels too?

Have your doc measure your E2 levels and compute your T/E ratio as well as your free T results and your DHT results as well and get back to us.

Also, what is the reason for your low T? From low FSH and low LH the probably diagnosis is secondary hypogonasism providing you have not done other things to suppress your HPTA that you have not told us about or your doctor about.

I recomend the work of Dr. John Chrisler DO as a foundation for good TRT. Notice I said, TRT and not PCT or getting T for TRT that is really a cyle for Body building.

 

[koolkatarbtl]

Doc just did another blood test (1.5 months after starting) and put me on 500uis HCG weekly. I started the HCG yesterday. Never been on any anti-es. HCG will probably jack up my estrogen even higher although that's the first i've heard of anyone saying it looks too high.

The doc was obviously ignorant about estrogen so I had to remind him to tick it off for this batch of tests.

I'm going to be seeing a newer and more competent doc in march but should I just get something like liquidex in the meantime?

 

[koolkatarbtl]

Well, I'm 2 weeks into the HCG and it isn't making much difference. It's actually making my libido worse.

So I'm about 8 weeks into TRT and it's not helping at ALL. Other than body-compositionwise (I hit a ton of new PRs and added a ton of mass).

Maybe it's time to try the T IM instead of Sub-Q like I've always been doing it and see if it makes any difference?

 

[Mr. Black]

estradiol: 80 pmol/L 55 - 198



Your initial pre TRT E2 values are too high. This high of E2 will negate any benefits you may be getting from your TRT. Most men prefer to be in the 20-30 range. The anxiety, depression, and ED are text book for too high of E2 levels. Any doc who really knows what they are doing will know that your T/E ratio is just as important as your total T and your free T.
.

Are you sure you are not confusing the Canadian vs US units for his E2 blood test? Estradiol of 80 pmol/l is not high, rather as the range suggests it is right in the middle.

 

[Mr. Black]

Well, I'm 2 weeks into the HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - and it isn't making much difference. It's actually making my libido worse.

So I'm about 8 weeks into TRT and it's not helping at ALL. Other than body-compositionwise (I hit a ton of new PRs and added a ton of mass).

Maybe it's time to try the T IM instead of Sub-Q like I've always been doing it and see if it makes any difference?

Post up your latest blood test results...

 

[koolkatarbtl]

Hey man,

I wanna do this right, so here's a more detailed update:

I started doing Epistane a couple of weeks before I started HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - , so I'm not sure which is the culprit.

With the epistane, I'm just pulse cycling (30mg) at most twice a week, so I doubt it could cause any hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - shutdown.

So all in all:

100mg Sub-Q Testosterone Enanthate: doing this for 9 weeks
30mg Epistane 2x a week: doing this for 4 weeks
250UI HCG 2x a week (2 days before and the day before doing T shot). been doing this for 2 weeks.

My libido is totally GONE and I noticed my balls started atrophying BIGTIME since starting HCG. I don't know WHY. I can barely get hard at all now.

Again, I DO NOT KNOW if the culprit is epistane or HCG.

Prior to (HCG and epistane) I could get hard NO PROBLEM, prior to TRT, and during TRT, hardness/libido were about the same.

HOWEVER, I'm *feeling* amazing at the moment (right now). Best I have in years. I'm also making AMAZING gains in the gym. But sex life is down the drain. FWIW, I'm NOT on any SSRIs, meds, or anything of the like.

Since I live in Canada where bloodwork is free, the problem that arises is that it takes up to a month and a half to get the results back.

My endo also lives 2 hours away and doesn't seem too competent.

I have an appointement scheduled in march with a urologist that specializes in treating bodybuilders. Guys who've had their HPTA shut down. He fixes them right up. Suposed to be the best in Canada.

My plan now is just to go to a regular walk-in GP, and get some bloodwork done (I know what to have tested, but I'm thinking the culprit has something to do with estrogen, which is the correct estrogen test to do? I dont think we have them all available here in canada...) right now so I'll have it ready for when I see the urologist in March.

I can try calling my current endo (who's 2 hours away) and ask him to fax me the bloodwork that was done just prior to have started HCG and that info might help as well. However, he think's I'm a former juicer and overall, is very suspicious of me, so I feel extremely uncomfortable communicating with him despite that he put me on TRT in the first place. (Yes, I was honest and upfront with him about everything too! He probably thinks ive done cycles before even though I haven't))

Remember, I'm 19 and I think I'm sinking down a dangerous hole and I wanna be real careful.

That's the lowdown. If anyone has any input I'd appreciate it. I'll post more info if I forgot anything. Thanks again to everyone and I just LOVE this board. So helpful.

 

[tical]

get him to fax you your bloodwork, it shouldn't be an issue... you probably will just have to request it from someone at the front desk and not even talk to him anyway

hcg would elevate your testosterone and in turn raise estrogen which might be the problem... i'm not sure how well epistane works to control estrogen

try to get some bloodwork done now so that you can see where your levels are at

i'm in the same position you are in libido wise, botched PCT and it sucks.. everything else is fine but when you'd rather sleep than get laid it does a number on your mindstate

 

[Mr. Black]

Strange that your blood work takes so long. For me I have my results avaialbe within a few days. The specialized tests ie. Bio-available test, SHBG often take a little longer (2-3- weeks). At any rate without a current blood test, its tough to speculate where your issues are. One possible suggestion would be to get off the epistane & injectable test alltogether. Replace it with either Androgel or perhaps find a compounding pharmacy that will make you some Bio-Identical test cream. Often using transdermals you will feel more of a "kick", simply because they tend to elevate DHT moreso than injectable test. Keep in mind DHT is a largely repsonsible for libido, maybe this is the route you should take. Keep up with the HCG though as it will help to regulate testical size. Maybe drop the frequency to once a week @ 250iu and see how you feel. Good luck man.

 

[DaPit26]

Sub q is fine for Trt. Many docs only administer Sub q nowdays. If you're only 19, I'm surprised your test is so low! with such a low dosage you won't notice much until 2-4 weeks.

 

[5150guy]

Are you sure you are not confusing the Canadian vs US units for his E2 blood test? Estradiol of 80 pmol/l is not high, rather as the range suggests it is right in the middle.

Yes, I was basing my comments on using the conventional units of pg/mL. When you convert the conventional to the SI units you use the factor of 3.671 to get to the SI units of pmol/L

80 pmol/L divided by 3.671 =21.79 pg/mL which is towards the lower end of the range and thus his initial estradiol levels would not be a part of the problem as I had originally thought.

It would be more usefull to see current E2 levels now that the OP is using HCG and T injections.

Also, if the endo really did his initial work up correctly, he or she should have looked at the Prolactin levels which can in fact lower LH and FSH production.