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Training for Bodybuilding

P

pwr_machine

New member
As some of you are aware, most of my experience is with powerlifting. I consider myself successful in the sport, but never became as successful as I had wanted to be. Unfortunately, my body doesn't respond well to the stress of heavy lifting anymore. I struggle with degenerative back disease. Initially, I thought I could overcome the problem but reality tells me that I can no longer endure the pain and stiffness that follows squat and deadlift.

So, here I am at 29 years old and I'm ready to make a change. I've decided to pursue bodybuilding. The majority of my previous training experience (approximately 7 years) for powerlifting has been periodization-based. Now, I'm looking to discover a new way to train that will pack on some added muscle mass. I'd like to get some advice from those of you that have a little experience with the sport. How do you typically train? Set, reps, etc.? Any feedback will be helpful feedback. Thanks!
 
"Dual-Factor Hypertrophy Training" and "DC's Program" are both great for packing on muscle mass, from what I understand. (I have not tried either of them myself, though.)

They are both in the sticky "Training Methods" at the top of the page.:)

Good luck with your new endeaver.:)


Joker
 
DFHT is my favorite. It's basically WSB for bodybuilders.

DC is also a proven program.

My vote is for one of those two. :)
 
I'm sure if I understood DFHT, I would like it a lot :) I have to read the article again...

To be honest if you want to put on muscle the goals wouldn't have to be very different from those you had as a powerlifter. Ironically powerlifters train for size much more efficiently than 95% of the bodybuilding population. Unless you want to do HST, plan on gaining size as you gain strength. I prefer 5 reps with most exercises, with a lower number of sets, or DC training.
 
In my mind, I need 5+ reps per exercise. Anything in the 5 rep range is pure strength training in my book. Again, in my head, sets of 8 to 10 just feel better. I guess you'd say I feel more "pumped".
 
pwr_machine,

when starting a bodybuilding program. . . keep it simple. Using this method has worked well for me.

Remember, you have courses, exams, and a dissertation to worry about. . .so keep training as simple as possible.
 
louden_swain said:
pwr_machine,
Remember, you have courses, exams, and a dissertation to worry about. . .so keep training as simple as possible.
Click to expand...
I like your attitude, but training is such a big part of my life.
 
pwr_machine said:
In my mind, I need 5+ reps per exercise. Anything in the 5 rep range is pure strength training in my book. Again, in my head, sets of 8 to 10 just feel better. I guess you'd say I feel more "pumped".
Click to expand...

Tell that to needsize.

You may find that what's in your head and what will work are different. That said, the 5x5 move is generally followed up with higher rep accessory work. Just that one work set is low and heavier.
 
spatts said:


Tell that to needsize.

You may find that what's in your head and what will work are different. That said, the 5x5 move is generally followed up with higher rep accessory work. Just that one work set is low and heavier.
Click to expand...
I hear ya.
 
Yeah, cause all those Eastern Europeans that started what we now know as WSB and DFHT weren't into thinking, or anything weird like that. ;)
 
Originally posted by IronLion



have you ever tried anything else?

and what is you history like with hst?

i want to know what it has done for you specifically:)


Of course I can't answer for Casual, but I have tried many programs and Im currently in my second week of HST so hopefully at the end of the 8 week cycle (and during it) I can provide some feedback on this type of training.
 
Mike_Rojas said:
You're something else spatts :)
Click to expand...

Eh, I'm just being ornery. :p

There's a s**tload of science behind WSB. VladImir M. Zatsiorsky, Siff, Verkhoshansky, M.S. Shakirzyanov, etc...
 
I think you misunderstood me...I never meant to claim that WSB isn't based on science. Quite the opposite, it's probably how I would train if I were training for strength.

have you ever tried anything else?

and what is you history like with hst?

i want to know what it has done for you specifically
Click to expand...

I put on 18 pounds pretty quickly (4 months). At that point I got a little cocky and thought I had the diet thing down when I kinda didn't. Since then it's been me not-really-bulking and not-really-cutting, just kinda maintaining weight. This time I'm doing it right since I have the luxury of being at home with a lot of food available. It was really hard to overeat on my allotted 3 dorm meals a day.

Vinyl - yeah you can get by on 1 set. 1 set isn't mandated. Some guys do 2-3. I personally do 1 because I've found 2 burns me out.
 
Last night, I spent some time reading about DFHT. This morning, I was reading about HST. I have to admit that DFHT appears to be the wiser choice if I were going to choose one. Unfortunately, neither style of training really grasped me like I wanted it to.

As I lay in bed thinking, here's what my wife and I came up with last night. In training for bodybuilding, I know I want to stimulate my body to grow. So we asked...what will force my body to do such? The answer...change something. My body wants to be "shocked". It wants change.

With that said, this is our first idea and a possibility for future training (I might need a "name" for this one :D):

I want to vary the reps from workout to workout/bodypart to bodypart. The rep range of 5, 8, and 12 seemed very appropriate. Now, every workout would be different. My body would get the change it wants and be "shocked" into growth.

For example:
Week 1
Sunday - Legs - 5 reps
Wednesday - Chest - 8 reps
Thursday - Back - 12 reps, and Biceps - 5 reps
Friday - Shoulders - 8 reps, and Traps - 12 reps
Saturday - Triceps - 5 reps

Week 2
Sunday - Legs - 8 reps
...and so on. See the pattern? 5, 8, and 12. The reps change from 5 - 8 - 12 over the course of all my workouts. Right now, I think that's the sort of change that I'm looking for.

Keep throwing some ideas at me. I'm learning something new everyday. Thanks to each of you whom are truely concerned.
 
As I lay in bed thinking, here's what my wife and I came up with last night. In training for bodybuilding, I know I want to stimulate my body to grow. So we asked...what will force my body to do such? The answer...change something. My body wants to be "shocked". It wants change.
Click to expand...

Argh...this is the thinking that gets people in trouble. "Shocking the muscle" is not what causes it to grow. Progressive load is what causes it to grow. Let me give you an example:

Trainee 1 changes leg exercises, sets and reps every couple weeks in an effort to shock the muscles. He starts at a 100 lbs squat. In 4 years, he finally decides to start squatting again. He finds he can do 200 lbs.

Trainee 2 sticks with squats for the entire 4 years. He slowly adds weight to the bar, but does it consistantly with focus and effort. 4 years later he squats 600 lbs.

Who do you think is going to have better leg development? If you can increase the load more frequently, with HST or DC or something of the like, you will grow more frequently (i.e. faster).
 
Yeah...the pump never grew anyone, anything. Your powerlifting theories are closer to the truth of bodybuilding. :)
 
Debaser said:
Argh...this is the thinking that gets people in trouble. "Shocking the muscle" is not what causes it to grow. Progressive load is what causes it to grow.
Click to expand...

That's why the word "shock" was in quotes. I'm looking for change, hence the word shock. Believe me, I understand progressive overload. I've done the progressive overload trick for the last 7 years. I wouldn't have the strength or body mass I have now if I didn't.

The "shock" comes from tricking my body from workout to workout. With varied reps, I don't think I'll adapt like I have with periodization training. As for as progressive overload, I'm not going to use the same weights each workout; I'll get stronger and the weights increase....progressive overload again.
 
Debaser said:
If you can increase the load more frequently, with HST or DC or something of the like, you will grow more frequently (i.e. faster).
Click to expand...
Over lunch, I revised my thinking a tad. I will be performing workouts more frequently. Two days per week with less sets.
 
spatts said:
Yeah...the pump never grew anyone, anything. Your powerlifting theories are closer to the truth of bodybuilding. :)
Click to expand...
I know exactly what you're saying, but it's that feeling I like. I just don't get it with the low reps in powerlifting. But now, with my new thoughts, I think I'll get a mixture of both...hypertrophy and strength training phases all mixed together in one.
 
I don't see why people need to follow cookie cutter programs

use the principles and make a program that suits yourself.
 
I'm a little confused. So fatiguing the muscle is, indead, better for overall development?

-sk
 
pwr_machine said:
I'm missing the question.:confused:
Click to expand...

Well, how come most bodybuilders will do higher reps while powerlifters stick to usually 1-3rep maxes?

How come they stop at 5reps?8?12? Why not do 50reps?

Just trying to figure out where 5, 8, or 12 originally came from ...

-sk
 
sk* said:
Just trying to figure out where 5, 8, or 12 originally came from ... -sk
Click to expand...

I don't know who came up with that, but I wish he/she hadn't. People have completely forgotten to listen to their bodies and train instinctively. So much banter about sets and reps, while completely oblivious to the objective at hand.

Side note: How can you go wrong if you train low reps, moderate reps, high reps, speed, GPP, and active recovery all in the same program? What could you possibly be leaving out? Until you have had a biopsy of every muscle in your body and know EXACTLY what you're dealing with, why not hit it all so there's no stone unturned?
 
There is a lot of research available showing what's good for hypertrophy, specifically 8-12 reps, but a lot of this has been done on untrained individuals who would grow from any rep scheme, also don't forget th eissue of time under tension. I could never grow off 8-12 reps consistently, nor could I add strength on it, you gotta find what works for you I think
 
Yeah, there's a lot of science behind the time under tension (TUT)theories. Unfortunately, I think they are accurate for just about everything EXCEPT size.
 
The range of all possible reps is like a continuum.

Kinda like... (assuming these are near your rep-maxes)
1-3 Neural Adaptation
4-6 Strength
8-12 Growth
12-25 Endurance
25+ Might as well do cardio

This is based on some science. Doing heavy singles/doubles/triples has been shown to increase maximal strength by increasing coordination both within a muscle and between muscles.

When discussing growth, it is important to get some higher rep work, and TUT also becomes an important factor because more volume generally means more growth. Although with growth it's not so cut and dry, as evidenced by this board and the fact that people get big doing a variety of work. One reason for recommending higher reps for growth could be that with higher reps (8+), you're not so much struggling just to get out the reps, so you can concentrate on controlling the negative, which is important for growth.

I try and think of it like this: if the weight's heavier than one you've touched in the recent past, it'll cause growth as long as you're lifting with reasonable volume (at least like 10 reps total). Eg, doing one single 1RM as a workset probably won't do much for ya.
 
sk* said:


Well, how come most bodybuilders will do higher reps while powerlifters stick to usually 1-3rep maxes?

How come they stop at 5reps?8?12? Why not do 50reps?

Just trying to figure out where 5, 8, or 12 originally came from ...

-sk
Click to expand...
Oooooh! First, the powerlifters that I work with spend about 3 weeks of a 9 or 10 week training cycle at 2-3 reps prior to a competition. Thier first 6 or 7 weeks of the training cycle is generally 5 to 10 reps.

And, I picked the numbers 5, 8, and 12. I looked at phases of training that can similiarly be found in powerlifting/strength training cycles. Generally, rep ranges from 4 to 7ish are considered part of the strength phase while rep ranges from 8 to 12 are considered part of the hypertrophy phase.

My concentration is now growth so the bulk of my training will be spent on the "high" and "low" ends of the hypertrophy phase with an additional day at 5 reps which I usually place about midway in a powerlifting training cycle. Again, I wanted hypertrophy and strength training phases all mixed together in one.
 
spatts said:


I don't know who came up with that, but I wish he/she hadn't. People have completely forgotten to listen to their bodies and train instinctively. So much banter about sets and reps, while completely oblivious to the objective at hand.
Click to expand...
I picked those numbers and the explanation is found above. :( j/k

In my powerlifting mindset, I can't let my lifters train instinctively. If that were the case, I would have had 40+ lifters over the years, including a very special one, overtraining for every meet! Timing is everything. I want these guys and gals to peak for a meet, not expend all their energy in the weeks prior.
 
Long Response

Well Ive trained in many ways and Ill break down each and my results. Now obviously each programs results varied due to my rest and diet which I feel are a huge part of my success or failure and I will include my lifestyle at the time.

1)Lift each body part twice a week once hard once active recovery and this program is broken into 4 week cycles and included olympic lifts. Results: I did this for 4 years as it was my colleges strength and conditioning program. I went to college at 5'8 167 8% benching about 270 and 4 years later I went into camp my senior year at 5'8 186 6.7% benching 320 and squatting 505. I saw good gains with this program but I think that better programs exist. Lifestyle- At this time I would go out fridays and saturdays bc I was at college. Id come in at 5 in the morning barely able to stand and Id rarely get 8 hours of sleep on the weekends. Sometimes Id even go out on a Tues or Thurs. Obviously this wasnt good for me. Over the summers I was away from all that and was all business. I never drank and always got my 8 hours plus an afternoon nap. Now its pretty easy to see I always got stronger over the summer.

2)WSB- Our new strength coach is a big proponent of WSB and even though I didnt play football anymore I figured it was something different so I figured I give it a go. I gotta tell you I saw great gains in strength and size. I have no concrete numbers for this but I for one of 1 rm days I went from Incline close grip of 255 to incline close grip 1 rm of 285 and this was w/i a 4 week time frame. Lifestyle- This was the end of my 1st semester senior year and during my 1 month winter break so I wasnt really doing all that much partying. id say maybe 1 time a week and I usually got my 8 hours. I could only imagine the results if I never went out.

3)DC- im doing this now and I love it. I am more into the bodybuilding workouts now that I dont play sports anymore. Ive seen incredible results with this program. The strectches involved have definitely made my muscles fuller and each 2 week cycle when I redo the old exercises I go up anywher from 2-4 reps. On back and hams I am going up in weight each time and getting more reps. Its great. Lifestyle- Ive only drank 1 time on the 6 weeks Ive been on this program and Ive been getting adequate rest which may explain my success.

Id recommend DC to anyone. My training partner is seeing the same gains as me and we are both natural right now.
 
spatts said:
Until you have had a biopsy of every muscle in your body and know EXACTLY what you're dealing with, why not hit it all so there's no stone unturned?
Click to expand...

Is this possible? What doctor could I go to, to have this completed? How much would it cost?

Thanks.

-sk
 
casualbb said:
The range of all possible reps is like a continuum.

Kinda like... (assuming these are near your rep-maxes)
1-3 Neural Adaptation
4-6 Strength
8-12 Growth
12-25 Endurance
25+ Might as well do cardio
Click to expand...

Hmmm...20-rep squats have probably transformed more physiques than any single exercise in iron game history, so there's gotta be some caveats.
 
casualbb said:
The range of all possible reps is like a continuum.

Kinda like... (assuming these are near your rep-maxes)
1-3 Neural Adaptation
4-6 Strength
8-12 Growth
12-25 Endurance
25+ Might as well do cardio
Click to expand...

Interesting. . .

How would you train calves and forearms??
 
Hmmm...20-rep squats have probably transformed more physiques than any single exercise in iron game history, so there's gotta be some caveats.
Click to expand...

I'm not denying that by any means:

Although with growth it's not so cut and dry, as evidenced by this board and the fact that people get big doing a variety of work.
Click to expand...

One of the things I try to do is think beyond sets and reps to what's really going on.

Each rep will:
1) Recruit muscle fibers, cause damage and growth
2) Incur fatigue

Only 2) has some relation to how many reps are in the set. As one works closer and closer to failure, a disproportionate amount of fatigue is caused.

This is why I agree with CCJ's recommendation to just pick a total number of reps you want to do, and divide up the sets so that you're never exhausting yourself. I also think when training for growth it's important to have at least one 15 or 20 rep "burn" set, but still not to failure.
 
I have some sound ideas of how I'll approach my training in a few weeks. I'll update everyone on my progress in a few months.
 
I personally have never put too much stock into rep ranges. I believe making the bar heavier while eating enough is what causes growth. Whether you increase your 1RM bench to 400 lbs or your 5RM to 350 lbs, you're going to gain some serious size along the way.
 
Debaser said:
I personally have never put too much stock into rep ranges. I believe making the bar heavier while eating enough is what causes growth. Whether you increase your 1RM bench to 400 lbs or your 5RM to 350 lbs, you're going to gain some serious size along the way.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean. Been there, done that. I'm just looking for something a little different now.
 
casualbb said:


I train them like the rest of the body
Click to expand...

I train them different than the other muscle groups because I feel that they are comprised of dense muscle tissues. . they are heavily used each day.

I like to perform between 20 and 50 reps on calves and up to 25 on forearms.

Of course I like to use a variety of reps. . my rep schemes may look like this:

50,25,15,10

It has worked well, and I think that high reps work well for calves and forearms.
 
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