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The NEW rules.

velvett

Elite Mentor
Platinum
For all -
*Minimum of 6 dates or 6 weeks before sleeping with your new friend
*4 dates or four weeks before a sleepover/cuddling
*Whining is never acceptable - but disclosure is - disclosure should be handled on date #1
*Don't ask someone out/accept an invitation if you're not ready/available (emotionally or otherwise) for a relationship

For the boys -
*2 days between calls is too long if you're sleeping with or even macking on a regular basis
*Don't make her ask to see you - if you're calling her, you're interested, have the balls to take the leap and risk rejection - and know that she feels far more vulnerable than you do
*Always call the day after the first any intimate encounter
*Bringing dinner over and staying in does not constitute a date (unless candles, flowers and entertainment are also supplied)
*You should know the eye color of your "friend" without looking by the end of the first date
*Chivalry is not dead - men should put thought into dates. Arrive with plans (none of this "what do you want to do" stuff), open her door, have a gift in hand (a single flower of any variety other than a carnation is a fine choice), pick up the tab.


** rules by MAIGH
 
;)

Finally...
 
velvett said:
*Minimum of 6 dates or 6 weeks before sleeping with your new friend
I am lucky if I can stand to date the same guy for 6 weeks. I think 3 dates is acceptable time frame.
 
Damn you are bossy



RULES FOR THE CHICK:

*Dont keep him waiting more than 10 mniutes whil eyou put on lip gloss or wax or color whatever it is y'all gloss wax or color


*Dont order just a salad at dinner.


*Leave a hidden note at his place the night after an encounter


*Don't make us do all the calling, emailing, etc. We wont pursue what we perceive as a dead-end...if you are interetsed, act so.
 
The Shadow said:
Damn you are bossy



RULES FOR THE CHICK:

*Dont keep him waiting more than 10 mniutes whil eyou put on lip gloss or wax or color whatever it is y'all gloss wax or color


*Dont order just a salad at dinner.


*Leave a hidden note at his place the night after an encounter


*Don't make us do all the calling, emailing, etc. We wont pursue what we perceive as a dead-end...if you are interetsed, act so.


I agree with those except for the salad. Salad = cheap.
 
These rules actually make sense, from a relationship standpoint.


You can't hurry love....nooooooooo you just have to wait
She said love don't come easy, it's a game of give and take
You can't hurry love, oh you'll just have to wait
Just trust in the good times, no matter how long it takes


I believe Phil Collins sang this.
 
velvett said:
For all -
*Minimum of 6 dates or 6 weeks before sleeping with your new friend
*4 dates or four weeks before a sleepover/cuddling
*Whining is never acceptable - but disclosure is - disclosure should be handled on date #1
*Don't ask someone out/accept an invitation if you're not ready/available (emotionally or otherwise) for a relationship

For the boys -
*2 days between calls is too long if you're sleeping with or even macking on a regular basis
*Don't make her ask to see you - if you're calling her, you're interested, have the balls to take the leap and risk rejection - and know that she feels far more vulnerable than you do
*Always call the day after the first any intimate encounter
*Bringing dinner over and staying in does not constitute a date (unless candles, flowers and entertainment are also supplied)
*You should know the eye color of your "friend" without looking by the end of the first date
*Chivalry is not dead - men should put thought into dates. Arrive with plans (none of this "what do you want to do" stuff), open her door, have a gift in hand (a single flower of any variety other than a carnation is a fine choice), pick up the tab.


** rules by MAIGH

My eye color is green btw. :qt:
 
superqt4u2nv said:
I like this idea but what should the note say?

I WAITED 6 WEEKS FOR THAT!!!!!



^^^not a good choice



..."thinking of you."


^^GOOD CHOICE
 
The Shadow said:
Damn you are bossy



RULES FOR THE CHICK:

*Dont keep him waiting more than 10 mniutes whil eyou put on lip gloss or wax or color whatever it is y'all gloss wax or color


*Dont order just a salad at dinner.


*Leave a hidden note at his place the night after an encounter


*Don't make us do all the calling, emailing, etc. We wont pursue what we perceive as a dead-end...if you are interetsed, act so.


and obligatory bj by the 3rd date
 
The Shadow said:
I WAITED 6 WEEKS FOR THAT!!!!!



^^^not a good choice



..."thinking of you."


^^GOOD CHOICE

I guess spray painting it on your car would be out of the question, huh?
 
velvett said:
I guess spray painting it on your car would be out of the question, huh?

..the 6 weeks comment is heinous enough...letsd not add insult to injury........or injury to...

whatever
 
The Shadow said:
..the 6 weeks comment is heinous enough...letsd not add insult to injury........or injury to...

whatever

Well, do you see each other once a week for 6 weeks or 6 days in a row?

It's all relative
 
velvett said:
Well, do you see each other once a week for 6 weeks or 6 days in a row?

It's all relative

I suggest:

breakfast
brunch
lunch
afternoon tea
dinner



..theres the sex...

ahem

SIX.
 
oh shit,..thats only 5


ok


add in a dessert after dinner

LOL

does that count?
 
The Shadow said:
oh shit,..thats only 5


ok


add in a dessert after dinner

LOL

does that count?
Yes so when are we doing breakfast, brunch, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner & dessert? :qt:
 
4everhung said:
I think the first date gift is bullshit


its not so much the gift that matters....its the thought

I single flower per date is easy......



...the brownie points are worth it if nothing else.



...it can be anything:


Single flower

Box of Razzles

...try a small BAG of FLOUR.....



"Heres your flour."

^^if she laughs.....you have a good one
 
Why don't u tell us the way it is then

geoboy said:
:heks:

Can one of the Male Mods please lock and disappear this thread before any girls read it. Thanks.

:LockMe!: :LockMe!: :LockMe!: :LockMe!: :LockMe!:
 
*Minimum of 6 dates or 6 weeks before sleeping with your new friend
*4 dates or four weeks before a sleepover/cuddling



Don't these 2 rules contradict each other ?
 
Y_Lifter said:
*Minimum of 6 dates or 6 weeks before sleeping with your new friend
*4 dates or four weeks before a sleepover/cuddling



Don't these 2 rules contradict each other ?


ok dude.....clear the alzheimers


"sleeping with" = having sex


:)
 
velvett said:
For all -

For the boys -
*2 days between calls is too long if you're sleeping with or even macking on a regular basis
*Don't make her ask to see you - if you're calling her, you're interested, have the balls to take the leap and risk rejection - and know that she feels far more vulnerable than you do
*Always call the day after the first any intimate encounter
*Bringing dinner over and staying in does not constitute a date (unless candles, flowers and entertainment are also supplied)
*You should know the eye color of your "friend" without looking by the end of the first date
*Chivalry is not dead - men should put thought into dates. Arrive with plans (none of this "what do you want to do" stuff), open her door, have a gift in hand (a single flower of any variety other than a carnation is a fine choice), pick up the tab.
i disagree with the 2 days thing, and she should ask to see me, because if she wants to she should be honest.
does talking on AIM count as calling after an intimate encounter?
so what is it if u dont have candles and stuff...
i neve rmake eye contact
i agree with the last one ecept for the whole plans and gift thing
 
superqt4u2nv said:
I am lucky if I can stand to date the same guy for 6 weeks. I think 3 dates is acceptable time frame.


Good girl. Everything else seems nice enough, but us promiscuous folks get impatient.
 
The Shadow said:
ok dude.....clear the alzheimers
"sleeping with" = having sex
:)

Stage lights from the latest La Cage Aux Folles appearance effecting your vison there Mr. broway ?

4 dates/weeks for a sleep-over and I'm supposed to just cuddle ??
CUDDLE ???

Then I wait 2 more dates/weeks for my due reward ?

If I climb into a bed with a Woman I sure as hell expect to do more than just cuddle..
 
Y_Lifter said:
Stage lights from the latest La Cage Aux Folles appearance effecting your vison there Mr. broway ?

4 dates/weeks for a sleep-over and I'm supposed to just cuddle ??
CUDDLE ???

Then I wait 2 more dates/weeks for my due reward ?

If I climb into a bed with a Woman I sure as hell expect to do more than just cuddle..



thats your problem.....


you used "woman" and "expectation" in the same sentence


hehehe
 
The Shadow said:
its not so much the gift that matters....its the thought

I single flower per date is easy......



...the brownie points are worth it if nothing else.



...it can be anything:


Single flower

Box of Razzles

...try a small BAG of FLOUR.....



"Heres your flour."

^^if she laughs.....you have a good one

That would be classic. lol
 
Someone gave me a bag of flour once. :qt:
I guess you had to be there to appreciate the spectacular sentiment of that particular bag.

Eh, it's what you make it, right.
 
velvett said:
Someone gave me a bag of flour once. :qt:
I guess you had to be there to appreciate the spectacular sentiment of that particular bag.

Eh, it's what you make it, right.
That must be some bad of flour.
 
velvett said:
Someone gave me a bag of flour once. :qt:
I guess you had to be there to appreciate the spectacular sentiment of that particular bag.

Eh, it's what you make it, right.


yep...make some brownies.....



or something
 
The Shadow said:
its not so much the gift that matters....its the thought

I single flower per date is easy......



...the brownie points are worth it if nothing else.



...it can be anything:


Single flower

Box of Razzles

...try a small BAG of FLOUR.....



"Heres your flour."

^^if she laughs.....you have a good one


Dude. What's funny about flour. Huh? Well? You think a guy giving flour is some kinda funny??!?



:lmao:
 
you say whining is never acceptable.. what about when you are in a serious relationship, is whining ever appropriate? (not about your SO but about other things in life..)
 
Lestat said:
you say whining is never acceptable.. what about when you are in a serious relationship, is whining ever appropriate? (not about your SO but about other things in life..)


Whining is for whiners. You choose.


:rainbow:
 
Lestat said:
you say whining is never acceptable.. what about when you are in a serious relationship, is whining ever appropriate? (not about your SO but about other things in life..)



Vel and I are having a moment...move along






;)



Venting frustrations and Whining are two different things I think.


to me - whining implies complaining without attempitng to fix the situation
 
you forgot the rules for the girls also, hun. Lord knows they need some also.
 
Lestat said:
you say whining is never acceptable.. what about when you are in a serious relationship, is whining ever appropriate? (not about your SO but about other things in life..)


Whining is irritating.

Bitching, kvetching, screaming even is preferable.

Whinning just makes me want to suffocate you.


But you know that's just me.
 
velvett said:
Whining is irritating.

Bitching, kvetching, screaming even is preferable.

Whinning just makes me want to suffocate you.


But you know that's just me.
gotcha..

my girl told me no whining the other day.. i was whining about how Chris webber was traded.. (I'm a Kings fan, born in Sacramento)
 
here are my problems why i treat girls like shit

1. i AM young and dont want a relationship that is serioous *sometimes gotta be an asshole to break things off with her)
2. i am good looking so i know i can get just as good or better
3. i live in hot girl capital of the world
4. treating girls like shit, they seem to like me more
5. ex flings or gf are not allowed to tip my bike or key my car no matter what happens
6. after the chase is over, the girl seems to get boring
 
Lestat said:
gotcha..

my girl told me no whining the other day.. i was whining about how Chris webber was traded.. (I'm a Kings fan, born in Sacramento)


That's kvetching.

Whinning is when you and your mate both for 40-60 hours a week but the whinner thinks that they are more tired, more over worked and more deserving of relaxing than you.

Whiner speak in like a different pitch, whinners always feel sorry for themselves and always have it worse off than you.
 
tiger88 said:
here are my problems why i treat girls like shit

1. i AM young and dont want a relationship that is serioous *sometimes gotta be an asshole to break things off with her)
2. i am good looking so i know i can get just as good or better
3. i live in hot girl capital of the world
4. treating girls like shit, they seem to like me more
5. ex flings or gf are not allowed to tip my bike or key my car no matter what happens
6. after the chase is over, the girl seems to get boring
I was just like that a few years ago
 
tiger88 said:
here are my problems why i treat girls like shit

1. i AM young and dont want a relationship that is serioous *sometimes gotta be an asshole to break things off with her)
2. i am good looking so i know i can get just as good or better
3. i live in hot girl capital of the world
4. treating girls like shit, they seem to like me more
5. ex flings or gf are not allowed to tip my bike or key my car no matter what happens
6. after the chase is over, the girl seems to get boring



How old did you say you are? :worried:
 
velvett said:
That's kvetching.

Whinning is when you and your mate both for 40-60 hours a week but the whinner thinks that they are more tired, more over worked and more deserving of relaxing than you.

Whiner speak in like a different pitch, whinners always feel sorry for themselves and always have it worse off than you.
hmm good to know, I'll pay attention next time and make sure I'm not using a whiny voice.
 
velvett said:
That's kvetching.

Whinning is when you and your mate both for 40-60 hours a week but the whinner thinks that they are more tired, more over worked and more deserving of relaxing than you.

Whiner speak in like a different pitch, whinners always feel sorry for themselves and always have it worse off than you.

OMG.. Did you spend some time with my X husband :worried:
 
velvett said:
Whining is irritating.

Bitching, kvetching, screaming even is preferable.

Whinning just makes me want to suffocate you.


But you know that's just me.


Yep... Seperated at birth ;)
 
tiger88 said:
here are my problems why i treat girls like shit

1. i AM young and dont want a relationship that is serioous *sometimes gotta be an asshole to break things off with her)

Sounds reasonable and logical.


2. i am good looking so i know i can get just as good or better

Eh, females tend to become smarter as they get older and we start to get over the "pretty boy syndrome" and look for other qualities. (Unless you're talking about a shallow female - who only really cares how you will look next to her - so she will look better, but that might work for you.)

3. i live in hot girl capital of the world
Er, ok.

4. treating girls like shit, they seem to like me more
Yah, that's true - most of us out grow that or come to our senses so don't hold on to that too long.

5. ex flings or gf are not allowed to tip my bike or key my car no matter what happens

Not allowed? Er, ok. Good Luck with that.

6. after the chase is over, the girl seems to get boring

Please don't get anyone pregnant.
And USE CONDOMS!

Thanks.
 
The Shadow said:
Damn you are bossy



RULES FOR THE CHICK:

*Dont keep him waiting more than 10 mniutes whil eyou put on lip gloss or wax or color whatever it is y'all gloss wax or color
.

I have NEVER made a man wait... unless of course, what he was getting was going to be DAMNED WORTH IT! ;)

The Shadow said:
*Dont order just a salad at dinner..

Darlin'.. salad is rabbit food. I may be cute with an adorable little tail but I sure the hell ain't no rabbit! You take me out, your wallet better be FAT. :chomp:


The Shadow said:
*Leave a hidden note at his place the night after an encounter.

I prefer mailing panties laced with the scent of me + my perfume. Tad bit more personal... C'est nes pas? :qt:


The Shadow said:
*Don't make us do all the calling, emailing, etc. We wont pursue what we perceive as a dead-end...if you are interetsed, act so.

I never mind doing a bit of pursuing, but listen up lunkheads: Any woman worth half her salt will tire of it quickly if you guys are just into playing.

PERIOD :rose:
 
velvett said:
Please don't get anyone pregnant.
And USE CONDOMS!

Thanks.

:lmao:
 
velvett said:
Please don't get anyone pregnant.
And USE CONDOMS!

Thanks.



good post velvett

i think i just need to grow up and realize that chics arent just for sex and also that girls arent only trophies for me to be seen with hot female (that is going to take alot of time i think)

(the condom thing is so funny since my mother still calls me or sends me text messages on the weekends for me to use condoms LOL

ooo the stress i have caused her :(
 
Last edited:
one more rule.........

If I ask you if my ass looks fat in these jeans...... by golly GIVE IT TO ME.. I deserve it!
 
FEISTY11975 said:
Hey, just ask me. You know I'll be straight with you. :qt:

Yep.. you have told me what... once or eh.. 10 times before.. ;)
 
Frisky said:
Yep.. you have told me what... once or eh.. 10 times before.. ;)


No--- only once. You remember..at my house with those Levis jeans. Your ass just looked big in them jeans and I could not resist telling you so. Just like you tell me that I am too damn skinny. We are too damn honest with each other. Guess that what makes us BEST FRIENDS!!! :heart:
 
For the girls, If you hope to land a decent and good man:
1. Drop all the wierd "Im an individual" shit like fucked up hair dye, paganism/witchcraft/spiritual related. Replace with an actual personality.
2. Going to raves to get fucked up on drugs isnt cool either.
3. Tattoos: if you already got em, tough shit. If not then dont get any.
4. Get that tired idea out of your head that you arent going to stay home with the kids when you get married and have kids, even when its entirely financially possible for you to do so. You dont know it, but when you tell a guy that, it lowers your chances of marriage/and kids with said man.
5. A man will move mountains for you if you are feminine and sweet and dont have some sort of chip on your shoulder. If people that know you say how you gripe about dating and guys in general, the common denominator in each situation that went bad is you, so kill that attitude or whatever it is you are carrying around with you that poisons each new relationship.
6. Sacrificing your dignity for school is not going to impress any man. If you are stripping, escorting, whoring, selling crack, but its "just while Im in school", doesnt fly with good decent men.
7. Good decent men like to do things like hold the door open, walk in between the street and the lady, open car doors, etc. If your self esteem is in the shitter and these sort of things bother you then go let Billy from the band treat you like shit, but dont take the good decent guy for a ride.
8. Feminism: Drop it. Its smacks of anti-male and any good decent man will sniff it out of you then drop you.
9. If you put out on the first date there is a great possibility that you will not be taken seriously for relationship material. I know you feel sexually liberated since blowing the homecoming king's mind but things change after college and the old rule of not being an easy girl still holds.
10. Youve come a long way baby, so put up the toilet seat.
 
Last edited:
velvett said:
For the boys -
*2 days between calls is too long if you're sleeping with or even macking on a regular basis
*Don't make her ask to see you - if you're calling her, you're interested, have the balls to take the leap and risk rejection - and know that she feels far more vulnerable than you do
*Always call the day after the first any intimate encounter
*Bringing dinner over and staying in does not constitute a date (unless candles, flowers and entertainment are also supplied)
*You should know the eye color of your "friend" without looking by the end of the first date
*Chivalry is not dead - men should put thought into dates. Arrive with plans (none of this "what do you want to do" stuff), open her door, have a gift in hand (a single flower of any variety other than a carnation is a fine choice), pick up the tab.

-Phone works two ways.
-If she wants to see you she should say so and not make you pry it out of her.
-Calling the day after an intimate encounter? I'll give you that one, but also see my first hyphon.
-How about incense, flower scented air spray, and a tape of a Mickey Ward vs Arturo Gatti match for candles, flowers, and entertainment?
-Chivalry is dead...and women killed it. Though I do open doors, and pick up the tab. Sometimes I'm even inclined to stand when she gets up from the table and comes back.

Also why not a carnation?
 
velvett said:
Someone gave me a bag of flour once. :qt:
I guess you had to be there to appreciate the spectacular sentiment of that particular bag.

Eh, it's what you make it, right.


So you were a big girl once, eh?
 
tiger88 said:
here are my problems why i treat girls like shit

1. i AM young and dont want a relationship that is serioous *sometimes gotta be an asshole to break things off with her)
2. i am good looking so i know i can get just as good or better
3. i live in hot girl capital of the world
4. treating girls like shit, they seem to like me more
5. ex flings or gf are not allowed to tip my bike or key my car no matter what happens
6. after the chase is over, the girl seems to get boring



:FRlol: ahahhahaaaaa this is the funniest thing I've seen all week!!

126bx.gif
 
superdave said:
For the girls, If you hope to land a decent and good man:
1. Drop all the wierd "Im an individual" shit like fucked up hair dye, paganism/witchcraft/spiritual related. Replace with an actual personality.
.

And being a vegetarian. Tofu does not taste better.
 
I wrote the book on how to treat a "friend"


-BRR
 
superdave said:
For the girls, If you hope to land a decent and good man:
1. Drop all the wierd "Im an individual" shit like fucked up hair dye, paganism/witchcraft/spiritual related. Replace with an actual personality.
2. Going to raves to get fucked up on drugs isnt cool either.
3. Tattoos: if you already got em, tough shit. If not then dont get any.
4. Get that tired idea out of your head that you arent going to stay home with the kids when you get married and have kids, even when its entirely financially possible for you to do so. You dont know it, but when you tell a guy that, it lowers your chances of marriage/and kids with said man.
5. A man will move mountains for you if you are feminine and sweet and dont have some sort of chip on your shoulder. If people that know you say how you gripe about dating and guys in general, the common denominator in each situation that went bad is you, so kill that attitude or whatever it is you are carrying around with you that poisons each new relationship.
6. Sacrificing your dignity for school is not going to impress any man. If you are stripping, escorting, whoring, selling crack, but its "just while Im in school", doesnt fly with good decent men.
7. Good decent men like to do things like hold the door open, walk in between the street and the lady, open car doors, etc. If your self esteem is in the shitter and these sort of things bother you then go let Slash from the band treat you like shit, but dont take the good decent guy for a ride.
8. Feminism: Drop it. Its smacks of anti-male and any good decent man will sniff it out of you then drop you.
9. If you put out on the first date there is a great possibility that you will not be taken seriously for relationship material. I know you feel sexually liberated since blowing the homecoming king's mind but things change after college and the old rule of not being an easy girl still holds.
10. Youve come a long way baby, so put up the toilet seat.



Good list, but please don't rip on Slash, bro.
 
velvett said:
LOL
Nah.

If you only knew who and why.


It makes me smile.
:)



Hey, more flour to you. :)
 
superdave said:
edited rob.


Cool, as long as you don't mean Billy Joel.
 
The new rules and the Vagina monoluges.

Women can do what men do, including rape. A women raping a 13yr old girl is "good rape"
 
Giving a gift (especially right off) equates to the girl thinking you are a chump.

This is a test to see how desperate you are. If you give her a gift she realizes that you have to pay her off for sex and cannot get any without buying it. She realizes she has total power of you. YOU WANT POWER OVER HER (which equates to sex on your part)

This leads to her not putting out, and wanting more gifts, a gradual dump or sucking you for all your cash into M and half of all you worked for in life while she sits on her ass.
 
THE NEW RULES FOR MEN

Premise one: Equal rights. They started this shit. Hell, they want more rights.
Premise two: Women want marriage and to be taken "care of."
Premise three: Men want to bang hot chicks.

Become as physically attractive, smart, funny, well educated and successful in life as possible.

Have fun in life and let no one control you including women who use their vagina as leverage to get you to do what they want you to do.

Never spend alot of money on a girl.
Never compliment a girl
If you do, she will have power over you, not give you sex or good sex, will use you, look down on you. Relationships are a power game where you want the power and who has the power is a continual battle or "game".
Take a girl on a action date.
Never be put in a position to be turned down, see never let women have power over you.
Women themselves are nothing individually. They are animals fundamentally interested in money and sex. They have no interest in higher truth, philosophy, science.
Therefore, never let a women have power over you being you have more value then her.


When a girl, tries to control you, move on.
Women need men.
Strong men, need no one.

Strong, good looking, sucessful men, are RARE and can get MANY, MANY, MANY women. Thus, they do not beg, they do not bribe, let women come to you which falls under seduction principles of DEMONSTRATION of VALUE and WOMEN LIKE TO CHASE, and do really not like to be chased except as a way to boost their egos.
 
Last edited:
never tell a girl you love her, or she will break your heart.

i fshe says she loves you, be like thanks, or smile and nod, or say i know, never return it

EDIT: unless ur trying to get in her pants then its okay, but u have to treat her like shit every other time, then say you love her so she gets wet and has sex,
 
Dirk Howat said:
THE NEW RULES FOR MEN

Premise one: Equal rights. They started this shit. Hell, they want more rights.
Premise two: Women want marriage and to be taken "care of."
Premise three: Men want to bang hot chicks.

Become as physically attractive, smart, funny, well educated and successful in life as possible.

Have fun in life and let no one control you including women who use their vagina as leverage to get you to do what they want you to do.

Never spend alot of money on a girl.
Never compliment a girl
If you do, she will have power over you, not give you sex or good sex, will use you, look down on you. Relationships are a power game where you want the power and who has the power is a continual battle or "game".
Take a girl on a action date.
Never be put in a position to be turned down, see never let women have power over you.
Women themselves are nothing individually. They are animals fundamentally interested in money and sex. They have no interest in higher truth, philosophy, science.
Therefore, never let a women have power over you being you have more value then her.


When a girl, tries to control you, move on.
Women need men.
Strong men, need no one.

Strong, good looking, sucessful men, are RARE and can get MANY, MANY, MANY women. Thus, they do not beg, they do not bribe, let women come to you which falls under seduction principles of DEMONSTRATION of VALUE and WOMEN LIKE TO CHASE, and do really not like to be chased except as a way to boost their egos.


I think your me - but male.
And that's kinda weirding me out.
 
Ulcasterdropout said:
You agree with him?


Well yes, conceptually he's right but for real life practical use it's a flawed way of living for long periods of time.

Believe me - I've tried.
 
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