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The Myth Of "Keepable" Gains
- Thread starter Nelson Montana
- Start date
navigatorrs
New member
Well said!!!
Good post
chazk
New member
what goes up must come down....
I do agree with your nelson 100%
alot of the loss is water and blood volume.
People can come off roids and still have more muscle then the average joe.
false concept is that once someone is off the juice they shrivel to a small person as if they nver lifted a weight at all .Back to the size they were before they lifted at all.Thats were the misconcpetion comes in about losing it all.
If a guy does a few cycles trains hard eats well, then comes off he can still have muscle mass above the guy that never took roids at all and have a slight advantage.
It might not be a whole lot but you have to look at it this way even if you keep 5-10 lbs of the muscle once clean for 6-8 months then its still 5-10 lbs of muscle you get to keep provided you keep working out hard and proper diet is their..
I know I know its not the 25-40lbs you had when you juiced for 5 years.
But if you come down to 200lbs from 230lbs its better then have being all natural and only made it up to 190lbs you still have a unnatural steroid induced edge..
so some are keepable to some extent but as far as keeping all of it .. thats just a dream .
We have all seen kevin leverone,arnold,yates,pual dillet,gaspari,labrada.
do they all have the muscle mass they had .No where near it.But they prob do have a few extra lbs of muscle from stretched muscle fascia and muscle plasma fiber growth...but even at most its just a few lbs if that.
I do agree with your nelson 100%
alot of the loss is water and blood volume.
People can come off roids and still have more muscle then the average joe.
false concept is that once someone is off the juice they shrivel to a small person as if they nver lifted a weight at all .Back to the size they were before they lifted at all.Thats were the misconcpetion comes in about losing it all.
If a guy does a few cycles trains hard eats well, then comes off he can still have muscle mass above the guy that never took roids at all and have a slight advantage.
It might not be a whole lot but you have to look at it this way even if you keep 5-10 lbs of the muscle once clean for 6-8 months then its still 5-10 lbs of muscle you get to keep provided you keep working out hard and proper diet is their..
I know I know its not the 25-40lbs you had when you juiced for 5 years.
But if you come down to 200lbs from 230lbs its better then have being all natural and only made it up to 190lbs you still have a unnatural steroid induced edge..
so some are keepable to some extent but as far as keeping all of it .. thats just a dream .
We have all seen kevin leverone,arnold,yates,pual dillet,gaspari,labrada.
do they all have the muscle mass they had .No where near it.But they prob do have a few extra lbs of muscle from stretched muscle fascia and muscle plasma fiber growth...but even at most its just a few lbs if that.
R
Ross
Guest
"Gains" is a VERY SUBJECTIVE TERM.
The word "gains" could imply increased strength or muscle, but it can also mean increased vascularity, hardness, defintion, and endurance.
To an extent, the muscle mass and strength that you aquire from using steroids are permanent, so long as you continue to provide your body with the same STIMULUS when you come OFF. In other words, you MUST CONTINUE "BODYBUILDING". Use it or LOSE IT! You must continue to EAT and TRAIN properly. Even if you were ALL natty and NEVER used STEROIDS, if you gain 20lbs of muscle and then just STOP BODYBUILDING, you will lose those gains.
Now, will you keep the PUMP, the sick vascularity, the insane muscle hardness, and inhuman endurance? NO...those will slowly but NOT COMPLETELY disappear. I will FOREVER be more vascular and HARDER for having used AAS. But by no means will I be able to look and feel like I am on Masteron/Prop/Var, when I am in an ALL natural state.
As for the MYTH of certain steroids producing more "Keepable Gains"....
Muscle is muscle. Water and fat are not muscle. So in the end, it's about how much LEAN MUSCLE TISSUE you have gained.
Having said that, I think that to AN EXTENT, HPTA function will determine how much of your gains you will "keep". In my vast experience, using TESTOSTERONE for long periods of time, will lead to a HUGE and ABRUPT LOSS of muscle and strength upon cessation...
HOWEVER, I have known bro's to ONLY USE Primobolan, Winstrol, or Dianabol for the entire year, and I MUST confess, these guys typically experienced MUCH LESS OF A CRASH.
So, there are MANY variables to consider. In conclusion, with all variables being EQUAL, sustaining your gains post cycle is MORE ABOUT LIFESTYLE than compound selection.
The word "gains" could imply increased strength or muscle, but it can also mean increased vascularity, hardness, defintion, and endurance.
To an extent, the muscle mass and strength that you aquire from using steroids are permanent, so long as you continue to provide your body with the same STIMULUS when you come OFF. In other words, you MUST CONTINUE "BODYBUILDING". Use it or LOSE IT! You must continue to EAT and TRAIN properly. Even if you were ALL natty and NEVER used STEROIDS, if you gain 20lbs of muscle and then just STOP BODYBUILDING, you will lose those gains.
Now, will you keep the PUMP, the sick vascularity, the insane muscle hardness, and inhuman endurance? NO...those will slowly but NOT COMPLETELY disappear. I will FOREVER be more vascular and HARDER for having used AAS. But by no means will I be able to look and feel like I am on Masteron/Prop/Var, when I am in an ALL natural state.
As for the MYTH of certain steroids producing more "Keepable Gains"....
Muscle is muscle. Water and fat are not muscle. So in the end, it's about how much LEAN MUSCLE TISSUE you have gained.
Having said that, I think that to AN EXTENT, HPTA function will determine how much of your gains you will "keep". In my vast experience, using TESTOSTERONE for long periods of time, will lead to a HUGE and ABRUPT LOSS of muscle and strength upon cessation...
HOWEVER, I have known bro's to ONLY USE Primobolan, Winstrol, or Dianabol for the entire year, and I MUST confess, these guys typically experienced MUCH LESS OF A CRASH.
So, there are MANY variables to consider. In conclusion, with all variables being EQUAL, sustaining your gains post cycle is MORE ABOUT LIFESTYLE than compound selection.
Magick69
New member
Nelson Montana said:Time for a reality check.
First off, newbies who ask how much of their gains they're going to keep should be directed to this post. There are too many variables to determine what you'll keep. And it isn't the dosages.
Some important points.
People say d-bol gains aren't keepable then they go and recommend test.
Wrong.
Gains from test are no more keepable than those from d-bol. Maybe less. The most solid gains are those created by nitrogen retention. (As is the case with natural training). This is what makes Primobolin so great. But the muscle growth with Primo is slight and slow ( Much like with natural training, though certainly faster). This is how muscle growth occurs. But people want fast noticable gains. Test increases water retention and that gives the impression of greater growth, but it's an illusion. The strength increase is due to more androgen but once that leaves the body, all you have is whatever extra nitrogen retention was obtained form the anabolic nature of the test. In short , it won't be much.
1000 mgs of Primobolin a week will give as much, if not more KEEPABLE muscle growth than 1000 mgs of testosterone.
The testosterone will just seem more dramatic at the time.
The reason D-bol has a rep for not lasting is that it increases blood volume. That's what gives the coveted "D-bol pump." But of course, you lose that shortly after cessation. But again, it doesn't mean you didn't gain muscle if you trained right and ate right. You just lose that blood volume.
PCT is not a sure fire way of keeping gains. For the most part, PCT helps to avoid a backlash of estrogen and low T and the side effects associated with it. It's not a "cure-all."
Let's not forget the need for bioavailable "free' testosterone in the recovery stage. This is what's so great about PROVIRON. But Proviron is suppressive, so what you get back on one end you lose on the other. This is why naturally increasing free testoterone is the way to go. That means avenacosides A&B and Muara Puama.
One product has the highest precentages at the best price, but I'll leave that for you to figure out.Seriously, this is as important -- maybe more important, than supressing estrogen.
One of the reasons guys use creatine PC has nothing to do with maintaining gains. Creatine replaces the water retention lost from the drugs. It also increases strength. Not a bad idea, but it's more of a psychological ploy than a physical one.
This is why I'm so interested in coming up with stuff for bodybuilders who inderstand how the body works. Creatine with spray dried plasma does things that some B.S. whey concentrate drink can't. My newest VIGOR increases blood vlume (ala'D-bol). Instead of trying to be drugs, they do naturally what drugs do. It makes sense to add as much of a natural advantage to any drug regiment, because in the end it's the more natural gains that you keep. Why not have the two compliment each other?
So in short -- anabolics grow muscle. Androgens create the srength to lift harder, thus building more muscle on cycle -- natural supps that relicate the effects of drugs increase the gains and allow them to remain.
So the next time someone what to know how much they'll keep, tell them, maybe all -- maybe none. Personally, I'd rather keep 10 pounds from a 750 mg 6 weeks cycle than 13 pounds from 1500mgs 20 week cycle. And 3 months later with no help, some guys keep none at all. (That's why brigding works so well. It's not coming off).
Go natural for 4 months and test your weight and bf% THAT is what you've gained. Whatever it is, much of it CAN be permanent. It all depends on what you do about it.
good points but some are incorrect
muira puama does not increase testosterone (please show me any study published on pubmed)
the only real proved herbal product that increase free testosterone is tonkgat ali and specifically the best one is LJ100 there are few studies (pubmed) which support this action and many are underway...
from my experience (did blood test) tribulus (tribex gold biotest or tribestan from bulgaria) works in increasing dht and testo. Differently from LJ100 The studies on tribulus instead are controversial; i believe becasue it works only if the powder is very good quality + if you are over 30.....
i would advice peole in doing a combination of the 2
300 mg lj 100
4 caps tribex
5 day on 2 days off; check your blood test and you will see what i mean...i believe is the less expensive effective test booster combination out
R
Ross
Guest
Magick69 said:
LJ100 is SICKKKKKK!!
But you need at least 200mgs a day, 300 is PERFECT!
Tribulus is also great, as long as it is STANDARDIZED for 20% PROTODIOCIN and it is used at a good dosage.
Imagine a supplement combining them both....
hint hint
Well, trib has been around long enough for everyone to know how effective it is, and I'm not impressed. I've used every kind imaginable. I use to get Tribex for free when I worked for T-mag and took bottles of the stuff -- up to 6X's the recommended dose -- and NOTHING.
Tongkat Ali looks good on paper but it doesn't have the "kick" of either muara puama or avenacosides IMO.
Plus, I've conducted tests with the use of avenacosides and free test and the results were undeniable. It works. It varies from individual to individual but everyone's numbers went up.
WRONGUN: Good question. I think PCT can help with keepable gains because it prevents the catabolic state that occurs post cycle -- but it's a small part of the equation. Proper PCT prevent problems and helps recovery but muscle mass is maintained more through necessity. The body needs a reason to hold the muscle. That means continued training PLUS the ability to recover. One way is through sleep and nutrition and the other is through having a high enough free testosterone level to support the muscle. If you then stay in an anabolic state the muscle becomes "solidified" because the body is used to holding it. Once again, it comes down to not having a dependance.
The issue of blood volume is very overlooked. The "pump" has been neglected in favor of more HIT style training but the pump is a HUGE factor in maintaining muscle size and shape. If blood volume is kept high, gains are easier to keep.
The way I've always viewed steroid use for keepable gains is to use them to get to a place that is beyond natural training, then holding it. If you gain too much, or stay on too long, or use dosages that are too high, you essentially are making it MORE differicult to maintain gains. But all in all, yes, guys who've used steroids will tend to carry more muscle after being natural if they know what they're dong.
Tongkat Ali looks good on paper but it doesn't have the "kick" of either muara puama or avenacosides IMO.
Plus, I've conducted tests with the use of avenacosides and free test and the results were undeniable. It works. It varies from individual to individual but everyone's numbers went up.
WRONGUN: Good question. I think PCT can help with keepable gains because it prevents the catabolic state that occurs post cycle -- but it's a small part of the equation. Proper PCT prevent problems and helps recovery but muscle mass is maintained more through necessity. The body needs a reason to hold the muscle. That means continued training PLUS the ability to recover. One way is through sleep and nutrition and the other is through having a high enough free testosterone level to support the muscle. If you then stay in an anabolic state the muscle becomes "solidified" because the body is used to holding it. Once again, it comes down to not having a dependance.
The issue of blood volume is very overlooked. The "pump" has been neglected in favor of more HIT style training but the pump is a HUGE factor in maintaining muscle size and shape. If blood volume is kept high, gains are easier to keep.
The way I've always viewed steroid use for keepable gains is to use them to get to a place that is beyond natural training, then holding it. If you gain too much, or stay on too long, or use dosages that are too high, you essentially are making it MORE differicult to maintain gains. But all in all, yes, guys who've used steroids will tend to carry more muscle after being natural if they know what they're dong.
