The Myth Of "Keepable" Gains

[Anthony Roberts]

What this shows me is that LJ increases progesterone. Maybe that's why it had no effect on me or anyone else I know who's tried it.

What it shows to me is that none of those "studies" are really valid. None have ever been published in a peer-reviewed medical journal, and they've all been done with shoddy protocol (saliva tests?) and at obscure univertities in third world countries.

Also...notice how one of the "studies" says "DHEA Aromatizes into Testosterone" ...that's classic...

the extract may influence the DHEA production, which would in turn subsequently be aromatized to testosterone.

Ha ha.

The other thing I like is that the study says that the feedback loop is not disrupted, yet when testosterone rises (ha ha) there is no rise in DHT. So this magical rise in testosterone produces a mystical type of testosterone which is apparently not subject to the 5a-R enzyme. How do you not inturrupt the feedback loop, yet have a rise in testosterone and none in DHT?

This set of "studies" is so full of inconsistencies and contradictions that it's good for a laugh and not much more. I hope nobody takes it seriously.

 

[Ross]

What this shows me is that LJ increases progesterone. Maybe that's why it had no effect on me or anyone else I know who's tried it.

Than you didn't read the studies, LOL.

LJ100(NOT tongkat Ali extract), increases FREE TESTOSTERONE levels by binding to SHBG. It also increases endogenous levels of DHEA by activating the CYP17 (17 a-hyroxylase/17,20 lyase) enzyme to enhance the matabolism of pregnenolone and 17-OH pregnenolone to yield more dehyroepiandrosterone (DHEA) as well as the metabolism of progesterone and 17-OH progesterone to 4-androstenedione. DHEA is another anabolic hormone naturally manufactured by the body. This is important as DHEA is ultimately converted to testosterone.

LJ100 ALSO increases the body's metabolism by increasing endogenous levels of thyroxine. Thyroxine is a major hormone secreted by the follicular cells of the thyroid gland. Thyroxine is transported in blood, with 99.95% of the secreted Tyroxine being protein bound, principally to thyroxine*binding globulin (TBG), to a lesser extent thyroxine binding pre*albumin (TBPA) and albumin. Thyroxine is involved in controlling metabolism rate, calories burned, influencing physical development, decreasing fatigue and sleeps disorder, and improving overall quality of life. High thyroxin indicates high BMR (Basal Body Metabolism Rate).

"Long Jack extract, Tongkat Extract, 20:1, 50:1, it's all garbage. LJ100 is NOT a just tongkat extract! LJ100 has undergone a patented extraction process to capture the most potent, biologically active EuryPeptides?. Rigorous toxicology trials have shown it to be safe even at 3000 times greater than the suggested dosage. LJ100? (22% Bioactive Eurypeptides) is non toxic and increases HDL levels (of Cholesterol) so may be useful as a natural source of HDL booster.

 

[Ross]

Fadogia, Tribulus, Avena, LJ100.....

There is MORE research on LJ100 and Tribulus than Avena or fadogia. Fadogia has virtually NO human research, of any at all.

 

[Ross]

And REMEMBER:

LJ100 is NOT just Eurycoma EXTRACT!

Those studies were ONLY proven with the one and only LJ100.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Well, trib has been around long enough for everyone to know how effective it is, and I'm not impressed. I've used every kind imaginable. I use to get Tribex for free when I worked for T-mag and took bottles of the stuff -- up to 6X's the recommended dose -- and NOTHING.

As you know, I also wrote for T-Mag (T-Nation). The only thing I used from them was their fatburner/stimulants and protein powder. I actually really like the protein powder. The rest of the products....don't really impress me. Tribulus is a good aphrodesiac, but as a test-booster, falls pretty flat. Numerous studies show that it doesn't do much to increase test.

 

[worldclass]

I didnt know you were referring to bodybuilders. I believe i gained the 35lbs and kept it is because i was far from my genetic limit and it was my first cycle

Damn, it took until the 30th post for someone to correct this nonsense.
The AS you use has nothing to do with "keepable gains". PCT only keeps you from losing gains you pushed past your genetic limit longer than if you crashed from not doing PCT. But how much you keep is not determined by your PCT is determined by your genetics.
I said this yesterday, doesn't anyone read anatomy books anymore? Please turn to the chapters on the endocrine system and read how high levels of androgens work to promote increased protein synthesis.
What determines how much of your gains you keep is how far you've gone past your genetic limit using steroids. That's it. Nothing else. Genetics.
It's amazing how easily someone can put up a post about something most people don't understand, draw a ridiculous conclusion, and then have a couple dozen people applaud the post. Didn't anyone read this board in the last 5 years?

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Fadogia, Tribulus, Avena, LJ100.....

There is MORE research on LJ100 and Tribulus than Avena or fadogia. Fadogia has virtually NO human research, of any at all.

Too bad the research on Trib and LJ100 don't actually show that it does what Fadogia does...which is increase test levels. Also....umm...the research on those other things are basically all rodent and animal studies...there's probably less than half a dozen which aren't.

Fadogia is new, and I was the first to ever bring it to the market...and the bloodwork we have, from a person who tested it shows an 800% increase in test levels. It destroys all of those other products put together.

 

[Nelson Montana]

What determines how much of your gains you keep is how far you've gone past your genetic limit using steroids. That's it. Nothing else. Genetics.
?

Well, yes and no. Of course genetics is a factor with everything. But you can have great genetics and lose your gains and have lousy genetics and keep more of them if you do the right things.

Keeping gains that were made because you didn't reach your genetic limit is a waste IMO. Why not reach that limit then go beyond it! Reaching it with steroids just limits you in the long run. But I understand when you're 18 all that matters in the here and now. Next year might as well be a thousand years away.

As for the back and forth about what works best for maintaining free testosterone naturally...LETS BE REAL.

There are very few tests done on these subjects and substances for TWO very good reasons.

1...the needs of bodybuilders is not a major concern to any medical institution.

2...natural substances hold no interest to the medical community because they can't patent them.

This is why animal tests are often a better indictator of a substances effectiveness than some BS concoted ad put out but the company that sells it.

Has everyone forgot ZMA and the phony BALCO studies that everyone cut and pasted as "proof" that ZMA worked? The only studies were done by BALCO -- who weren't even a lab -- it was just Victor Conte whose main credentials were that his wife owned a health food store.

How about Ergopharms claim that 6 OXO increased testosterone 200%? Plueeeze!

Incidentally, in the book "Game Of Shadows" I'm mentioned in regard to Arnold and Conte and their dubious schemes. I've been active in speaking out about the bullshit in this industry for over 10 years. I'm not going to endorse something I think is crap. But I will recommend something that works.

Bottom line: Avenacosides A&B and Fadogia have been shown to be effective through unbiased experimentation -- not because somebody was selling it and THEN decided to put together some studies to support it.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Has everyone forgot ZMA and the phony BALCO studies that everyone cut and pasted as "proof" that ZMA worked? The only studies were done by BALCO -- who weren't even a lab -- it was just Victor Conte whose main credentials were that his wife owned a health food store.

This is the same kind of study we're seeing posted here today. Stuff that is done post-facto, after a product is on the market, and which is paid for by the people who produce the thing. It's absurd.

When you and I formulate products, we look at the research first, then put something on the market. We don't put something out there, then pay to have studies support what we claim.

 

[chazk]

It was a 11 week cycle, i dont think i was growing taller with bigger bones in that time frame. And you said you gained 25lbs in one year, i gaiend 35lbs in 11 weeks, As you can see, much much faster. And stop making it out to be that i woudlve gained the weight naturally. I was eating 3500calories a day and doing all the big compound movements and i wouldnt gain weight for a good 6months or so. While taking the Test E, i was eating the same 3500cals and workin out a bit harder coz i was on gear. So dont make it sound like i coulve gained that much naturally.

I gained 25lbs of muscle. lean abs sunken face with veins comming out my bicpes. no bloated test puffy faced kid look ..
i done test cycles i know exactly what you look like and what gains you made becuase I did it at 19 and shot up to 205 then by age 21 215lbs i was puffy and looked like a marshmelow man.

I sure of it at age 18 had you ate 3500 calories did compound movments you could have gained 35lbs in one year with eaze... hell thats only a extra 8 months working out when you minus a 12 week cycle from it..
so you gained in 3 months what you was gonna gain in 12 months...

your missing the point we are talking guys that have already blasted throughthe barrier and gained and gained all they could then took roids then gained another 35lbs on top of the 35lbs that anyone can gain naturally ... that last 20lbs is the hard lbs to keep with out the drugs...

wait youll see...
you think next cycle your gonna gain 35lbs more? 70lbs total then do another and gain 35lbs and gain 100lbs total ? then come off and keep it?
wake up to reality youll find out soon enough ..