The Myth Of "Keepable" Gains

[Magick69]

I may be presumptuos it but sounds like you're trying to push a product here.

I was onto LJ years ago because it looked so good on paper. We did tests with LJ and Trib and they didn't stand up to avenacosides and muara puama. As far as studies with Muara Puama , there haven't been many but there there have been a few that showed very positive results. (Couldn't find them on-line though I'll track then down if you feel like finding them). And the empirical evidence of long term use as a libido booster is pretty unanamous. Still. it's more the avenacosides A&B that have the major effect on FREE testosterone.

There isn't a single study on tribulus that shows it as being effective that I find credable -- which would be fine if I felt anything from it. Some do. I don't. I can't factor what might be placebo into a formula I design. I had to go with what I knew worked and what my studies concluded.

no1 -- chazk is right. At your age you "held" on to gains because you are naturally in a growth stage at that point in your life. No experienced bodybuilder gains 35 lbs of muscle from gear in 11 weeks and keeps it.

you are presumptuous my job is another actually i get pissed off by people who say things unproven; may i ask you instead if your unleashed as muira puama?

As far as studies with Muara Puama , there haven't been many but there there have been a few that showed very positive results.

which ones? what were the results?

i can asmwer for tribulus and lj100....
sorry i do not like when people say things without first checking...

Facts are

- tribulus has been researched few studies state that works; few others disagree

- LJ 100 few studies state it works

Personally

I tried both and both works (tribulus becasue i am over 30 and it appears work at that age bracket)

about muira puama i do not say does not work just is not supported by studies. If there will be a study which proves it works as testo enahancer i will buy. I buy only supplements supported by scientific evidence

 

[Magick69]

sorry you do not need to answer my question:

Unleashed

Supplement Facts

Servings Size 3 capsules
Servings Per Container 30
Avena Sativa (with at least 7% Avenacosides A&B) 500 mgs
Muara Puama: 12:1 active extract 500mgs
Trimethyglycine 1000mgs
Xanthoparmilia Scabrosa: 50mgs
Urtica dioica: 100 mgs
Ashwagandha: Standardized to 1.5%Withanolides 500 mgs

.......

 

[Anthony Roberts]

which ones? what were the results?

i can asmwer for tribulus and lj100....
sorry i do not like when people say things without first checking...

Facts are

- tribulus has been researched few studies state that works; few others disagree

- LJ 100 few studies state it works

Personally

I tried both and both works (tribulus becasue i am over 30 and it appears work at that age bracket)

about muira puama i do not say does not work just is not supported by studies. If there will be a study which proves it works as testo enahancer i will buy. I buy only supplements supported by scientific evidence

There are no studies showing LJ100 works. There are ads (paid for by the company who produces it) which pretend to be studies showing it works. Check into it, and you'll see that none of those "studies" actually appear in reputable medical journals. They're ads dressed up to look like scientific studies, but they're still ads.

Trib is good for libido...it's garbage as a test booster.

LJ is also a good libido booster...it's effects on test have not been studied realistically. As an anabolic, it is very good...when you inject 800mgs/kg.

Check into my product (*MyoGenX) because it actually has a study showing it increases test, and there's been bloodwork posted here which confirms that.

 

[Magick69]

There are no studies showing LJ100 works. There are ads (paid for by the company who produces it) which pretend to be studies showing it works. Check into it, and you'll see that none of those "studies" actually appear in reputable medical journals. They're ads dressed up to look like scientific studies, but they're still ads.

Trib is good for libido...it's garbage as a test booster.

LJ is also a good libido booster...it's effects on test have not been studied realistically. As an anabolic, it is very good...when you inject 800mgs/kg.

Check into my product (*MyoGenX) because it actually has a study showing it increases test, and there's been bloodwork posted here which confirms that.

wrong


the most recent one:
August 2006

A new study has demonstrated that LJ100 Eurycoma longifolia extract, standardized to 40% glycosaponins and 22% eurypeptides, known for enhancing sexual virility and overall physical endurance in men by increasing levels of free testosterone, may be equally as viable for promoting anabolic action during and after endurance training or competition. The study by S. Talbott, et al, entitled, “Effect of Eurycoma longifolia Extract on Anabolic Balance During Endurance Exercise,” sought to determine the effects of the herb specifically on cortisol and testosterone levels during high-intensity exercise. The researchers used a freeze-dried extract of eurycoma longifolia that was standardized to contain 22 percent eurypeptides and 40 percent glycosaponins. Participants were men who were taking part in a 24-hour mountain bike event. The subjects provided a saliva sample prior to and after each of four 14-mile laps; the eight samples of each participant underwent an enzyme immunoassay (Salimetric, State College of PA) to determine and compare levels of cortisol and testosterone. This was compared to placebo samples. Both placebo and supplement were taken approximately 30 minutes prior to exercise. The researchers found that cortisol levels in the LJ100 Eurycoma group were lower – 33 percent – than in the placebo group. Also, testosterone levels in the supplement group were 16 percent higher than that of the placebo group.
About LJ 100 - LJ100 is a registered standardized, freeze-dried Eurycoma longifolia extract, containing 40% glycosaponins and 22% eurypeptides, a bioactive glycoprotein that is now clinically proven for its androgenic properties. LJ100 has undergone a patented BAT extraction process to capture 22% biologically active eurypeptides, proven in research to be responsible for increasing libido. Created by the original researchers at the Forest Research Institute of Malaysia (FRIM), University of Malaya, and Massachusetts Institute of Technology, LJ100 (22% bioactive eurypeptides) has shown - in human clinical trials - an ability to increase DHEA and free testosterone, decrease sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), modulate cortisol, and increase IGF-1 level.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Arch Pharm Res. 2001 Oct;24(5):437-40. Links

Effects of Eurycoma longifolia jack on laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats.Ang HH, Cheang HS.
School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University Science Malaysia, Minden, 11800, Penang, Malaysia. [email protected]

It has been reported that Eurycoma longifolia Jack commonly known as Tongkat Ali has gained notoreity as a symbol of man's ego and strength by the Malaysian men because it increases male virility and sexual prowess during sexual activities. As such, the effects of 200, 400 and 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack were studied on the laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats after dosing them for 12 consecutive weeks. Results showed that 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack significantly increased (p<0.05) the leavator ani muscle to 58.56+/-1.22, 58.23+/-0.31, 60.21 +/-0.86 and 62.35 +/-0.98 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared with the control (untreated) in the uncastrated intact male rats and 49.23+/-0.82, 52.23+/-0.36, 50.21+/-0.66 and 52.35+/-0.58 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared to control (untreated) in the testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats. Hence, the pro-androgenic effect as shown by this study further supported the traditional use of this plant as an aphrodisiac.

i can continue with the studies....

 

[Ross]

wrong


the most recent one:
August 2006

A new study has demonstrated that LJ100 Eurycoma longifolia extract, standardized to 40% glycosaponins and 22% eurypeptides, known for enhancing sexual virility and overall physical endurance in men by increasing levels of free testosterone, may be equally as viable for promoting anabolic action during and after endurance training or competition. The study by S. Talbott, et al, entitled, “Effect of Eurycoma longifolia Extract on Anabolic Balance During Endurance Exercise,” sought to determine the effects of the herb specifically on cortisol and testosterone levels during high-intensity exercise. The researchers used a freeze-dried extract of eurycoma longifolia that was standardized to contain 22 percent eurypeptides and 40 percent glycosaponins. Participants were men who were taking part in a 24-hour mountain bike event. The subjects provided a saliva sample prior to and after each of four 14-mile laps; the eight samples of each participant underwent an enzyme immunoassay (Salimetric, State College of PA) to determine and compare levels of cortisol and testosterone. This was compared to placebo samples. Both placebo and supplement were taken approximately 30 minutes prior to exercise. The researchers found that cortisol levels in the LJ100 Eurycoma group were lower – 33 percent – than in the placebo group. Also, testosterone levels in the supplement group were 16 percent higher than that of the placebo group.
About LJ 100 - LJ100 is a registered standardized, freeze-dried Eurycoma longifolia extract, containing 40% glycosaponins and 22% eurypeptides, a bioactive glycoprotein that is now clinically proven for its androgenic properties. LJ100 has undergone a patented BAT extraction process to capture 22% biologically active eurypeptides, proven in research to be responsible for increasing libido. Created by the original researchers at the Forest Research Institute of Malaysia (FRIM), University of Malaya, and Massachusetts Institute of Technology, LJ100 (22% bioactive eurypeptides) has shown - in human clinical trials - an ability to increase DHEA and free testosterone, decrease sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), modulate cortisol, and increase IGF-1 level.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Arch Pharm Res. 2001 Oct;24(5):437-40. Links

Effects of Eurycoma longifolia jack on laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats.Ang HH, Cheang HS.
School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University Science Malaysia, Minden, 11800, Penang, Malaysia. [email protected]

It has been reported that Eurycoma longifolia Jack commonly known as Tongkat Ali has gained notoreity as a symbol of man's ego and strength by the Malaysian men because it increases male virility and sexual prowess during sexual activities. As such, the effects of 200, 400 and 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack were studied on the laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats after dosing them for 12 consecutive weeks. Results showed that 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack significantly increased (p<0.05) the leavator ani muscle to 58.56+/-1.22, 58.23+/-0.31, 60.21 +/-0.86 and 62.35 +/-0.98 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared with the control (untreated) in the uncastrated intact male rats and 49.23+/-0.82, 52.23+/-0.36, 50.21+/-0.66 and 52.35+/-0.58 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared to control (untreated) in the testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats. Hence, the pro-androgenic effect as shown by this study further supported the traditional use of this plant as an aphrodisiac.

i can continue with the studies....

YES!!

LJ100 works!

Tongkat Extract is GARBAGE.

 

[Magick69]

i have been for while member of Body building. com forum and what i disliked were the 'reps' who tried to sell anything even poisons. Now I would like to see this forum not degrading like the others.

I am not against people who sells but when they write they should be objective and state the truth; any supplements worth it to pay has to have a scientific background behind (perhaps controversial as tribulus but still scientific studies are the last words for me)

cheers

 

[Nelson Montana]

sorry you do not need to answer my question:

Unleashed

Supplement Facts

Servings Size 3 capsules
Servings Per Container 30
Avena Sativa (with at least 7% Avenacosides A&B) 500 mgs
Muara Puama: 12:1 active extract 500mgs
Trimethyglycine 1000mgs
Xanthoparmilia Scabrosa: 50mgs
Urtica dioica: 100 mgs
Ashwagandha: Standardized to 1.5%Withanolides 500 mgs

.......

You're confused. Allow me to explain it to you.

Most companies can buy raw ingredients of anything. Then they sell it and try to convince the customers why its good.

I DID THE EXACT OPPOSITE!!!!

I've spent a large protion of my career examining what works and what doesn't. I've made recomendations in my books which substances I've found to be effective AND I DID NOT MAKE A PENNY OFF OF ANY OF THEM.

I've been an advocate against worthless supplements for years and have been quoted on TV in magazines, newpapers and best selling books. Who are you?

Now try and stay with me here. I don't want to confuse you.

If you wanted to concoct a legit supplement, what do you use? Things that you know worked of course! That's what I did.

Get it?

If anyone wants to track down and buy the ingredients seperately, that's fine too.

UNLEASHED works so well there have been at least a dozen knock off versions of it. Personally, I don't trust knock off versions. One company even stole the ad copy!

I think if anyone wants to promote their product, they should make their own posts as to why they believe it has merit. Hyjacking other peoples posts in order to push a competitive product is bad form IMO.

And besides, this was a dicussion about keeping gains. If you guys want to just hawk trib or LJ or anything else, take it to the supplement forum.

 

[Magick69]

You're confused. Allow me to explain it to you.

Most companies can buy raw ingredients of anything. Then they sell it and try to convince the customers why its good.

I DID THE EXACT OPPOSITE!!!!

I've spent a large protion of my career examining what works and what doesn't. I've made recomendations in my books which substances I've found to be effective AND I DID NOT MAKE A PENNY OF OF ANY OF THEM.

Now try and stay with me here. I don't want to confuse you.

If you wanted to concoct a legit supplement, what do you use? Things that you know worked of course! That's what I did.

Get it?

If anyone wants to track down and buy the ingredients seperately, that's fine too.

UNLEASHED works so well there have been at least a dozen knock off versions of it. Personally, I don't trust knock off versions. One company even stole the ad copy!

I think if anyone wants to promote their product, they should make their own posts as to why they believe it has merit. Hyjacking other peoples posts in order to push a competitive product is bad form IMO.

And besides, this was a dicussion about keeping gains. If you guys want to just hawk trib or LJ or anything else, take it to the supplement forum.

haha! you are confused; you were accusing me to sell products i was just curious to see why you were pushing muira puama etc..i had my answer...

as said before your post was good until you started to speak about muira puama increasing testo....

 

[Anthony Roberts]

wrong


the most recent one:
August 2006

A new study has demonstrated that LJ100 Eurycoma longifolia extract, standardized to 40% glycosaponins and 22% eurypeptides, known for enhancing sexual virility and overall physical endurance in men by increasing levels of free testosterone, may be equally as viable for promoting anabolic action during and after endurance training or competition. The study by S. Talbott, et al, entitled, “Effect of Eurycoma longifolia Extract on Anabolic Balance During Endurance Exercise,” sought to determine the effects of the herb specifically on cortisol and testosterone levels during high-intensity exercise. The researchers used a freeze-dried extract of eurycoma longifolia that was standardized to contain 22 percent eurypeptides and 40 percent glycosaponins. Participants were men who were taking part in a 24-hour mountain bike event. The subjects provided a saliva sample prior to and after each of four 14-mile laps; the eight samples of each participant underwent an enzyme immunoassay (Salimetric, State College of PA) to determine and compare levels of cortisol and testosterone. This was compared to placebo samples. Both placebo and supplement were taken approximately 30 minutes prior to exercise. The researchers found that cortisol levels in the LJ100 Eurycoma group were lower – 33 percent – than in the placebo group. Also, testosterone levels in the supplement group were 16 percent higher than that of the placebo group.
About LJ 100 - LJ100 is a registered standardized, freeze-dried Eurycoma longifolia extract, containing 40% glycosaponins and 22% eurypeptides, a bioactive glycoprotein that is now clinically proven for its androgenic properties. LJ100 has undergone a patented BAT extraction process to capture 22% biologically active eurypeptides, proven in research to be responsible for increasing libido. Created by the original researchers at the Forest Research Institute of Malaysia (FRIM), University of Malaya, and Massachusetts Institute of Technology, LJ100 (22% bioactive eurypeptides) has shown - in human clinical trials - an ability to increase DHEA and free testosterone, decrease sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), modulate cortisol, and increase IGF-1 level.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Arch Pharm Res. 2001 Oct;24(5):437-40. Links

Effects of Eurycoma longifolia jack on laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats.Ang HH, Cheang HS.
School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University Science Malaysia, Minden, 11800, Penang, Malaysia. [email protected]

It has been reported that Eurycoma longifolia Jack commonly known as Tongkat Ali has gained notoreity as a symbol of man's ego and strength by the Malaysian men because it increases male virility and sexual prowess during sexual activities. As such, the effects of 200, 400 and 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack were studied on the laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats after dosing them for 12 consecutive weeks. Results showed that 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack significantly increased (p<0.05) the leavator ani muscle to 58.56+/-1.22, 58.23+/-0.31, 60.21 +/-0.86 and 62.35 +/-0.98 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared with the control (untreated) in the uncastrated intact male rats and 49.23+/-0.82, 52.23+/-0.36, 50.21+/-0.66 and 52.35+/-0.58 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared to control (untreated) in the testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats. Hence, the pro-androgenic effect as shown by this study further supported the traditional use of this plant as an aphrodisiac.

i can continue with the studies....

1. That first "Study" doesn't appear on Medline, nor any reputable medical journal. It's bullshit until it does.

2. I already referenced that study in my comments. You need to inject 800mgs/kg to get the anabolic effect they're talking about. Ha ha. Have fun with that one. Bioavailability of this stuff orally is like 10%. So you only need like 80,000mgs/kg to get the results from that study, if you take it orally.

Lets be realistic here.

 

[Magick69]

haha! bro just drop it please; people are not stupid.... this are studies took from pubmed; what is a serious study for you? where should be published.

the 2006 is an enlighting study just confirming lj100 function; in the other post you also spoke about saliva test and this study has it so lets drop it ??